Vero, I think Robert Frueh should have been looked into more than he was and he should have been questioned definitely long before he was in November 1982, more than two months after the Waco Polce had suspended the case. But there were many people, tips, information that the police didn’t check out or follow up, being more thorough in the early stages of the investigation would have provided more concrete answers later. I still believe David and the Melendez brothers committed this crime and Deeb at least set it all in motion. I’m more convinced in David’s guilt, I think the case against him was pretty strong. It’s a little different with the Melendez brothers, at this point I don’t think by much, but the case was weaker against them and there could be a chance that they got wrapped up in this just because of their association with David,I don’t believe this. Gilbert’s involvement with some of David’s other criminal behavior, e.g. the Darvin Pack incident, didn’t help.
Very funny Vero. For a circumstantial case,a case with little to no physical evidence, it was pretty strong. I would ask and not just you Vero but anybody, how much would it take you to hear for you to be convinced of some one’s guilt? I will point out a few that stand out against David.
Dorothy Miles was the perfect witness, she couldn’t be impeached and still can’t be today, I don’t know if she is still alive. She had nothing to gain by testifying against David, she was fond of David, David called her mom, you can’t find a better witness. And something I thing that gets overlooked about her testimony was she never tried to force any of her responses, if she didn’t know something she didn’t try to come up with the answer she thought she was suppose to give, this goes along way toward credibility. She didn’t know dates and she try to come up with them when she didn’t. She recalled things by events as most people do, especially when you are talking about events that happened two years or more before she testified, again this makes her believable and relatable to the people in the jury, we all do this, we tie things from our past with events. A witness like this can be the building block that you can build your case around and Mrs. Mlies wasn’t really used that way but still she comes off vert honest and strong.
Next I would point out the two psychiatrist that both interviewed David and came to the same conclusion, David was trying to come up with an insanity plea. David didn’t tell them he didn’t do it; he asked was it possible if he could have done it and forgotten or could he have been so intoxicated he just didn’t remember. And an important aspect about this was when David did this, it was well before he was arrested or charged after the Grand Jury, he was trying to work this angle early on I think February 83. He wanted to psychiatrist and then when that doctor didn’t tell him what he wanted to hear David want to try another doctor. This screams guilt.
Then we have David’s parole officer, Gene Deal. David came to his office and told him he knew something about the murders. At that point Deal didn’t think David was involved but probably knew something about them, he would call the police. It wasn’t until after David’s own mother called that he became David had something to do with the murders
Vero I could get into things that weren’t permitted in court, the defense was successful keeping some damaging testimony out. How much more do you need?
David wasn’t trying to make a deal, he was trying to work an insanity defense and this was about a year before he was indicted by the Grand Jury, it might not prove you are guilty but I would offer it exhibits you have a guilty conscience. By early 1983 he was realizing they were closing in on him, he worried whom was the weak link that would give it up, in the end he was the weak link with all his craziness, the way he carried on in the county lock up. If David wanted to make a deal he should have tried, with that many months gone by since the crimes it was likely the D.A.’s office knew they were going to have to make a deal with some one, Truman Simons would have made a deal with David. I don’t know what Davis was thinking talking like he was without having a deal in hand.
bkl67 T Simons told me (this was while Simons was a jailer) that he asked Spence if he ever considered the fact that he (Spence) had a “split personality “. This is when Spence started wanting to talk to the doctor. I believe Simon’s put those thoughts in Spence’s head.
Since these reports are nearly impossible to read, I thought I would post what information I can get from them. First the killer/suspect’s name and other information has been redacted. The first page list the officers involved in working the case, Page two list victim and suspects/arrested (redacted), followed by the narrative. Paraphrasing; 12/21/91 Sheriff’s Office receives call from Jeff Williams, pastor of the First Baptist Church, China Springs. Mr. Williams states he received call from -redacted- and told him he had stabbed a person at 2934 Savannah Court. When officers arrived to the scene found victim dead on floor. Later that day suspect -redacted- was picked up in China Springs at the home of his pastor; Mr. Williams. and taken back to Savannah Court. The next few pages are the reports of the different responding officers and give the same story. Page 4 shows -redacted- was willing to talk and he tells his story.
-Redacted- had known victim approximately one and a half years, met through mutual friends, -redacted- ran drugs for victim, picking them up in different cities in Texas, usually marijuana,, bringing the drugs back to Waco and collecting the money. !2/20/91 -redacted- was contacted by victim to pick up load of marijuana from Houston and picked up marijuana loaded it in his truck and took to Austin, gave load to subject unknown to -redacted- and then he returned to Waco. Around 7:30 p.m. -redacted- arrives at home of victim asking for the money, $5000, he has been promised for this drug deal. Victim makes sexual advances toward -redacted- and he permitted victim to perform oral sex on him. Afterwards -redacted- told victim he needed his money so he could leave, victim tells him it will take a couple days to get the $5000. At this -redacted- becomes angry hits victim in face several times, seeing a knife on a table in the dinning room -redacted- picks up knife and starts slashing victim. Victim falls limb to the floor, his only words, “I am sorry”.
-redacted- leaves, rides around for awhile then goes to his pastor’s home and confesses. That’s the story, -redacted- gave a written confession. The last few pages mostly deal with evidence collected. A few points of interest, on 12/22/91 when officers wanted to talk to Jeff Williams he refused to talk and wouldn’t cooperate. The personal effects found on the victim at time of murder were turned over to his brother Delbert Frueh, this was handled by Sargent Nicoletti, I would guess this is Mike Nicoletti that worked the Lake Waco Murders. The case was cleared by arrest, that means the case is closed, closing officer Detective Sanders of the Waco Police.
So I guess the question is why is the perpetrator’s name redacted and there could be a few reasons, maybe he was a minor at the time. I would throw out there; if the police were looking for an informant, one deeply involved with drug dealing a young killer of a known pervert with a history of dealing drugs would be the perfect candidate.
I’ve heard this guy was never brought to trial. Why wouldn’t he be? Also talked to a police officer recently who lead me to believe case was never resolved. Weird. Maybe it didn’t matter to the police that a homosexual had been killed?
HGG that looks right that he was never brought to trial, the report states cleared by arrest not cleared by conviction. A police department will close a case if they believe they have the right culprit even if he is not convicted. The police had a signed confession. A lawyer wanted to represent this guy whomever he was but he didn’t want a lawyer. This looks like a pretty clean cut case. We can only guess why they didn’t prosecute. HGG you knew Mr. Frueh from before correct? Did you know his brother or other family members?
I haven’t gotten into this in awhile but how things have been going recently, I feel it might be a good time to get into the difference between justice and the truth again. People might be confused to think justice and the truth are one in the same but they are not and not just in this case but in all cases. Unfortunately when you don’t get the whole truth you are left with holes in the story, doubts and questions, again this happens with all cases, there are always questions left unanswered, with this case I think there is just such an inordinate amount. I guess some could argue that’s what you should expect with such a complex case, multiple victims, more than likely multiple perpetrators and even more suspects, questionable crime scenes, inaccurate recollections by most of the witnesses interviewed, serious discrepancies and contradictory information from witness to witness, it all adds up to create a morass of confusion. Even with the best of situations, which this case was far from, the truth takes a back seat to justice, it’s the nature of the beast.
Many things are found to be inadmissible in a courtroom, not that they are not true but to properly administer justice the accused have to be treated fairly, justice is the act of passing judgment on specific acts that stand outside the norms of a society. “Specific acts” is the key here, doesn’t matter what other acts the accused may have committed or their character, their associates, friends or families, to be fair the accused can only be judged on the “specific acts” brought before the court and it is in this narrow spectrum that a court may look, much of the truth remains outside the view of this small window, that is justice. Most of us probably think a parent would know their own child better than most other people would, I think that would be common sense, a spouse or significant other would know their partner better than other people that know them. It would figure these people could give us a better insight to some one, a better insight into their life, their thoughts, behaviors, this could give us a better understanding of the truth but this can be inadmissible in a court of law, it calls for conjecture or a witness making a conclusion, both inadmissible. Doesn’t mean it isn’t true it’s just not allowed in court. And this is why the truth or portions of the truth remain outside the purview of justice.
I believe some fair measure of justice was administered in this case, on the other hand the truth is another issue that leaves a lot to be desired. Just look at this case, we can clearly see some things don’t add up, the trials, legal proceedings, appeals went on for more than a decade. Information and testimony was available and presented in court in some instants but not in others, some information came later along the legal trail, some information never came to light in court. To find the truth we need to put all the varying information together, compare it against other information, cull facts from fiction, fill the holes in the story and tie up the loose ends satisfactorily. With the passage of time and the reluctance of some parties to talk now makes this a monumental undertaken but isn’t the truth worth it?
I’ve rambled enough for now, I know how much many of you love it when I ramble but I have a prime example of exactly what I’m saying and I plan to get into it tonight.
Continuing where I left off last night. To better explain the points I was trying to make I will just take something straight from the records. there are plenty to choose from. I’m picking this one because it’s pretty clear and simple and it is something I have recently talked about. I’m just going to copy the testimony of Christine Juhl verbatim. Not all of this testimony will serve by purpose but for continuity and clarity I am coping the complete exchange. This is Bill Lane representing the State direct examination of Christine Juhl. Actually it was at the end of his direct examination of Christine, he had stated he was done but then he asked the court could he get into one more thing before DeGuerin began his cross examination. The court allowed him to continue and this was the exchange that followed.
Bill Lane: Chris in late June or early July 1982, did you have an occasion to be in the presence
of David Spence, Gilbert Melendez and Tony Melendez?
Christine Juhl: Yes sir.
BL: What was the circumstances surrounding all of you being together.
CJ: We had driven out to Speegleville park to shoot, not I , but the three gentlemen, shoot a
little .22 gun that they were shooting signposts and stop signs and stuff like that.
BL: When do you remember that being, as best as you can recall?
CJ: Summertime, I had my, I was wearing shorts or a pair of bluejeans. I was not allowed to
wear shorts. A short sleeve shirt. I had my hair, which was very, was longer back then. I
had it up in a little white painter’s cap. And I remember it was very hot. We were out at
Speegleville just shooting the gun and it was probably one of the only times David ever
took me anywhere.
BL: What kind of vehicle were in, if you can recall?
CJ: A pickup truck, an older model pickup truck.
BL: Had you ever been to Speegleville Park before?
CJ: Yes, sir.
BL: How did you know where Speegleville Park was?
CJ: Growing up, we went camping quite a bit, my family. We would camp most of the time at
Speegleville Park, down by the old washed out bridge and there was a old fire station
that the kids used to go play at quite a bit.
BL: Be honest, with this jury Chris. Did you ever do anything else while you were growing out
at Speegleville Park?
CJ: Well, we hunted rattlesnakes.
BL: Your family was rattlesnake hunters, weren’t they?
CJ: You could say that.
BL: Was this area well known for rattlesnakes?
CJ: Yes, sir.
BL: How about chiggers? A lot of chiggers out there in this area?
CJ: As I recall, yeah, there were a lot of chiggers.
BL: Let me show you what is before this jury as State’s exhibit number 1 and ask you: Do
you recognize the scene that is depicted in that? Might take you a minute to get oriented.
CJ: Gosh it has been 10 years. This is Lake Waco. There is a bridge that is here.
BL: May it please the Court can she step down here?
Court: Sure.
BL: Chris, step down here to the jury. What I want you to do, Chris, we may have to do it twice
be sure that the folks at the end of the jury can see where you are. Describe generally, I
think now I’ve got it turned upside where you were looking at. You indicated the twin
bridges?
CJ: Yes.
BL: Do you recognize the scene that is generally depicted in this area?
CJ: Yes.
BL: OK, where is Speegleville Park?
CJ: Oh, God, do you want me to remember that from 10 years ago? Came across the bridge,
down, split off.
BL: Let me see if I can do this better. You are indicating part of that park looks like it had been
cut off there?
CJ: Yes, sir.
BL: Chris, why don’t you have a seat for a second while I try to locate this. I don’t know. Let me
try, let me look at this one and see if it helps. Let me hand you what has been marked as
State’s exhibit number 63 and ask you if that area looks familiar to you?
CJ: This could be Speegleville Park.
BL: Okay.
CJ: Because the trees, there’s a lot of trees and you have a dirt road that goes back up
(Indicating). I haven’t been there in 10 years.
BL: When you, well, I tell you what. Let’s try walking this thing through. When you were riding
around with Gilbert Melendez and David Spence and Tony Melendez and they were
shooting up signs, I think you said a .22?
CJ: Yes, signs.
BL: Do you recall going to Speegleville Park?
CJ: We were going into Speegleville Park when they first started shooting the signs. They
would start every little bit and shoot the signs.
BL: Where did y’all eventually go in Speegleville Park? Do you recall?
CJ: We first started off on kind of the main, the main drag. It started paved and then it turned
to gravel. And then a one part on the park the road cuts off like this. This road here goes
up into a clearing. You go through some trees and it goes into a clearing. This point here
(indicating) goes down into a picnic area or campground. I knew that very well because
we camped out there several times as a child. I never drove back then, I didn’t know how
to.
BL: You didn’t drive back then?
CJ: Yeah.
BL: Okay, but you remember going down into the park area?
CJ: Oh, yes, sir.
BL: Do you ever remember getting down in close to the lake, down in the wooded area?
CJ: Where the trees, I mean, where the roads separate, there are trees on this side of you.
The lake is over here (indicating), but you really don’t see the lake through the trees.There
are several big trees and it’s pretty covered. It is a little bit cooler there in the midday.
BL: Dense?
CJ; Very.
BL: area? Okay, did it appear there were like just trails down in through these trees or
DeGuerin: Leading and suggestive.
Court: Sustained.
BL: How did it look to you?
CJ: Deserted, there was nobody there but us.
BL: Describe the road conditions where you were.
CJ: Dirt roads, bumpy roads, not really well maintained. As far as I recall, there were shrubs
and things like that in the middle of the road, where the shrubs kind of grow up a little bit.
It was deserted. There was nobody there.
BL: Okay, this trip that you took out to Speegeville was approximately when? The summer
1982 , in the early summer?
CJ: The early summer of 82.
BL: Of 82, I think that’s all I’ve got. Thanks Chris.
So, Christine was with David Spence, Anthony Melendez and Gilbert Melendez in the general area the victims bodies were discovered, sometime, in her estimation, in late June or early July 1982, in other words in close proximity to both the time and place of the murders. Alone that is very damaging to the defense but we can add other information to this that no jury ever heard, again not that it was not true, it was just how the case panned out.
This exchange between Bill Lane and Christine took place on December 7, 1992, during Deeb’s re-trial, this would be the only jury to hear this and the one defendant that this information hurt the least was the only one on trial at that time, Muneer Deeb, that’s probably why Lane didn’t think about it until the end, it doesn’t say anything about Deeb but it raises serious questions for the others. So one might ask why wasn’t this brought up in any of the other court proceedings? We have to look at when the information came together.
Deeb’s re-trial took place at the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993 and this is when Christine testified, the only other time Christine testified was during the Grand Jury, she didn’t testify during either of David Spence’s two trials. She testified for the Grand Jury on November 21, 1983 and this trip was never mentioned. One would think the D.A. would have wanted to inform the Grand Jury that three of the guys he was trying to get indicted were in the area the bodies were discovered around the time of the murders. A lot of people went to the park and without being able to narrow it down other than June and July 1982 that leaves a lot of wiggle room just enough to cause reasonable doubt. It was the mode of transportation that became the key and the D.A.’s office wouldn’t know that until the Melendez brothers agreed to cooperate in 1984, after David Spence’s first trial had begun.
It has been well documented the Melendez brothers changed their stories multiple times, in particular Gilbert and what vehicle was used the nights of the murders, at this time I’m not really sure when he finally gave it up, I know it was after David Spence’s first trial had begun but they were able to use this information during David’s second trial. Just think if the D.A.’ office had gotten the information from Gilbert that they used his old beat up white truck they nights of the murders? Take a look at Todd Childer’s testimony during David’s first trial, when he testifies about driving to Konhe Park with Clifford Oliver, John Arnett and Cal Frazier and running into some Mexicans in a white truck that they traded beer for marijuana, that testimony holds a different light and weight when you know that Gilbert Melendez had a white truck, something the jury in David’s first trial never heard.
We move to David’s second trial, the Melendez brothers testify during this trial, the jury now knows about the white truck. The State is able to prove when Gilbert bought the truck, the person that sold Gilbert truck, Richard Sulak testifies and he has the notarized transfer of title. Gilbert bought the truck on July 3, 1982. But during this trial we don’t here from Todd Childers, so this jury doesn’t hear about what he saw when he went to Koehne Park that night and Christine didn’t testify during this trial either, so there is no mention of the trip she took to Speegleville Park. That’s a lot of information neither of the Juries in David’s two trials heard and they still found him guilty.
Now, we have to address what truck is Christine talking about. Yes, I have tried, the last time I talked to her about it, which was months ago and she must still be mad at me about it, she tried to tell me it was David’s truck and this trip took place much earlier like the summer before. I reminded her what she had testified to and that it being David’s truck doesn’t add up, she hasn’t talked to me since. But let’s go by the facts, David was released from prison in July 1981, he was originally paroled to Fort Worth. At some point he requested and was granted permission to move back to Waco to live with his mother, I don’t know the exact date on that at the moment but that should be something easy to find. Anyway Christine has stated she met David either in August or September of 1981, I would have to go latter if not later. Gene Deal, David’s parole officer, stated he first saw David in November 1982. If David was in Waco in August he didn’t make initial contact with his parole officer until two or more months later, even if he was back in Waco in September. Does Texas allow their parolees just out of the joint to freely roam around without supervision from their parole officer months a t a time, I find that hard to believe. Either way if Christine met David in August of 1981 that wasn’t early summer. The only time she was with David during what could be considered early summer was 1982. And what about David’s truck when did he have it? Again I don’t know when he first got the truck but again I don’t think that matters because when Christine and he first got together makes an summer sojourn to the park unlikely or at least not June or July. And we know when David lost the truck, that crazy night in November 1981. The night that cause the rif between David and the Melendez brothers moved out and David almost killed Christine tying her to his truck and dragging her down the road and then when she didn’t want to stay he took an ax to his truck and demolished it. Then he would get the Malibu that he still had the night of the murders. So what truck is Christine talking about, looking at the time period the answer is easy and although in court she could only narrow the time frame down to late June and early July 1982 with the other information we have we can narrow it down further. The old model truck Christine was talking about was the old truck Gilbert had bought on July 3rd, that narrows the time frame down to between July 3rd and July 19th, the night Christine left David that could be the date for the trip to Speegleville Park. With more information we obtain from people like Dorothy Miles we can narrow down that even further.
Summarizing: see how the information on this one issue came out over years, after most of the trials were over the juries in the earlier trials never heard it and just think how the D.A. could have proceeded if he had all this information from the beginning or before he went to court the first time, David’s first trial in 1984. We could have different answers. A this is just one aspect of the case, what if Josie Scionti was permitted to testify, would the inconsistencies in Clifford Oliver’s story stand? And I do believe it was Christine Juhl that first brought Clifford Oliver to the attention of Truman Simons, she knew he was with David that night. In the aftermath we can look at all the scattered information that was disseminated over a decade from such a wide variety of sources and there is still a lot of information that hasn’t been tapped and questions that haven’t even come close to being answered.
Mrs. Thompson, I think it is correct that Simons was the first person to mention a split personality to David but we have to put it in the proper context. I don’t think it was like one day Truman said David with the way you are acting you might have a split personality. I think it was more like David asked if it was possible that he committed the murders and just didn’t remember it? Simons replied to the effect, “Like a split personality”? and David goes yeah and Truman tells him he (Truman) couldn’t determine that and that David would need to see a psychiatrist to determine this.
The testimony of Dr. James Jolliff, the psychiatrist that evaluated David, would be in line with this. When Feazell asks him about this Jolliff states that was the purpose of the evaluation because there had been some discussion about rather David did have a split personality. Jolliff determines he doesn’t not, David has a severe anti-social personality disorder on a scale from 1 to 10 the doctor says David would be a 10 the worst. A few characteristics of this disorder would be lying, manipulating, lack of remorse. Jolliff states that during his evaluation David had admitted to him that he had lied to get out of trouble in an earlier incident and he did so in a way that seemed he was proud of this and bragging, David lacked the sense that this was wrong.
Then Russ Hunt questioned Jolliff. Hunt asks if David had said anything about being told by some one else he had a split personality., Jolliff’s replies he is hesitant on that because it came up in a couple of contexts and he asks “I think you are talking about the initial? Hunt answers yes. Jolliff continues he is not certain, what he felt David was saying or asking him was; was there anything wrong with me, he wondered if he did it. David and Jolliff talked about David discussing this with Truman. Jolliff finishes with who might have mentioned it first he did not know. Mrs. Thompson I didn’t copy the testimony verbatim maybe I should have and I still can. This sounds inconclusive and maybe a little confusing. It sounds like a simple question,” Whom said split personality first? But that’s not what’s really important. You have to take in the whole evaluation, focusing on the traits in David’s personality the doctor describes. Mrs. Thompson I know this is a terrible analogy but I’m eating a brownie at the moment so it’s all I can think of; let’s say there is this dessert I really like but I can’t think the name of it. I talk to you about it and you know the name of this dessert and tel me. Did you put it in my head no I was already thinking about it. This is the same thing that happened between David and Truman, all Truman did was put a name on it, split personality. Mrs. Thompson this is what a manipulative person does. David can’t go around saying I think I have a split personality or some mental issue or disease that he hopes will lessen his culpability everyone would know what he was doing. You do just what he did, ask questions, hey is it possible I could have killed those kids and don’t remember, then we get the exchange between David and Truman. And see how it works now the discussion is Truman told David he had a split personality. David has been able to manipulate the situation into Truman thought he was crazy and needed to see a psychiatrist but that’s not really true.
Mrs. Thompson I don’t want to take out of context the talk you had with Truman but I see him telling you this like in a way he wasn’t happy about the situation, yeah he told David he needed to talk to a psychiatrist and now Truman had to deal with that craziness.
Vero, I understand bkl67 saying things said are sometimes not in proper context. I just remember TS telling me (on many occasions) that he would do and say things to get DS “rattled”. Especially talking to him about Christy would set him off and many times DS was found crying and going crazy in his cell. TS said DS said he had bad dreams. TS sent me a copy a drawing he claimed DS did in “SATANIC WRITING”. I have the drawing somewhere. Perhaps, I can locate it.
Must close this for now. More later.
Yes Dr. Jolliff only spent 2 hours with David Spence, that was considered a long session. And don’t forget the other psychiatrist that testified never saw David in person, he made his conclusions purely by what was on the record about David’s life.
Does anyone have any thoughts on Robert Frueh now that we have been able to see the reports? Does anyone think Kenneth Franks could have had drug deals with Robert Frueh?
Mrs. Thompson, please understand I wasn’t trying to question your conversations with Truman Simons, the point I was trying to make was yes Truman was probably the first one to come out and say the words split personality and did tell David he would have to see a psychiatrist to determine this, David already in his head to try to find a way from being help responsible for his actions and I believe this is what Dr. Jolliff is saying. Dr. Jolliff was aware David had talked to Truman about this but the doctor states he is hesitant to answer that because he had talked to David in a couple contexts about this. Hunt tries to push Jolliff on this and still the doctor explains he can’t be certain and then he finally says he does not know whom first mentioned it. He did feel David was like fishing for an answer and that would match the personality traits Dr. Jolliff had witnessed in David during his evaluation, the I I I and me me me, something is wrong with me I’m the victim, Truman told me this. Pure psycho as Joilliff, and the other psychiatrist would concur, the worst of the worst 10 out of 10.
Truman and David were playing a game of cat and mouse, Truman the cat trying to catch David the mouse and David, thinking he can’t get me I’m the baddest on the block, again in line with the diagnosis. Remember David was walking around the jail wearing that bandanna with the picture of a blonde hair girl and a dark hair girl and the word outlaw scrawled on it he had Puryear draw, that was like wearing an advertisement across his forehead, yeah I’m the badass and there’s nothing anybody can do about it, that was the personality but with most psychos like this there is a certain level of delusion and that’s what Truman was playing on. We also have to consider the timing of this conversation between Truman and David when the whole idea of a split personality came up, sometime in March 1983, Dr. Jolliff did his evaluation of David on April 7th. David had been carrying on in jail since he was arrested on September 9th for the Pack incident, that was before Truman was working at the jail. David was still playing his games. David and Gilbert both had originally agreed on a plea deal for that crime, a seven year sentence, at the last moment when it came to sign on the dotted line David changed his mind, Gilbert went a head with the deal. Then Vic Feazell is elected D.A. and as usual when there is a new D.A. there are changes in the staff in the D.A.’s office. In this case the assistant D.A. that had made the deal with Gilbert and David left, that left David’s status up in the air and it remain so until Vic took office and when Vic took office he didn’t want to play any games with David, David had had his chance, there wasn’t going to be any deal. This case would go to court in March 1983 and David was found guilty and got a crazy sentence like 90 or 99 years something like that, he was going to spend the rest of his life in jail. Vic wasn’t playing any games, David could keep on playing his games with Truman because he wasn’t going anywhere anytime soon and by then Vic would have a case against David on the Lake Waco Murders, the delusion was failing a part, David needed to change is game plan, now it was time to play for a mental illness to get him off the hook. Keeping things in proper context David didn’t decide to ask to see a psychiatrist right after the conversation with Truman, he had to carry on a little bit more. Remember he was another guy in the jail that put in the request for David to see a psychiatrist, he did so because of the way David was carrying on, having crying spells and stuff like that, again manipulating making it look like he had feelings like normal people would have but it was still all for his benefit, this guy thought David needed help and told him he should ask to see a doctor and put in a request for him. David was playing it right out of the textbook. Mrs. Thompson you mentioned Truman told you many times he did and said things to rattle David and he would use Christine, I know this is true, he was trying to break David but Truman was never going to break him. Christine and I talked about this a little, let me share one of the things she and Truman did that she told me about.
Christine told me about this last summer,”Back after David was arrested and Simon’s was working at the jail and I was living at Juanita’s.
I went out behind the house to the carport (if you can call it that) And grabbed a whole bunch of Granddaddy long leg spiders. I put them in a box with a nice note on top and Simons came to the house and picked the box up. He had to look inside it before it was sealed to make sure there was nothing else in it. Simons and I laughed so hard. He took it to the jail and gave it to David personally. David opened the box and out comes a hundred or so spiders. David did not sleep for nights (maybe weeks).”
The fear David had about spiders is another element in his mental make up, as the doctor states the personality disorder David had would have developed over time, since childhood. and the fear of spiders is a good example. David had this fear in his childhood and it never went away, David realized this was a way to get attention, again probably in childhood. I don’t want to talk bad a bout the deceased but we can totally avoid the truth either. David’s mother Juanita let’s say wasn’t the most attentive mother, she had numerous relationships and they take time, effort and attention all that would come at the expense of her sons. David’s found at a young age his fear of spiders was a way he could get attention. It didn’t have to be positive attention, his mother could have just slapped him up side the head and told him he was acting like a baby, which would be a negative but he was still getting attention. Years later we can still see this in his relationship with Christine and in an abusive relationship this fear helps foster as unhealthy relationship. It’s kind of like swiping the slate clean each time he has some episode with spiders. He could beat and do atrocious things on a regular basis to Christine but when he displayed his fear of spiders he let Christine see a vulnerable side of David a weak side of David where he was the victim, where he needed love and attention and it worked to a degree, again the delusion starts to fall apart, Christine starts to see his fear of spiders as something else, it becomes something she think she can control, which in reality is not true and actually dangerous and that is the cycle of an unhealthy relationship. In the same conversation I had with Christine where she told me about sending the spiders to David while he was in jail she also shared this with me, actually this was the beginning of that conversation, sending the spiders to jail was one of the couple things she is talking about.
“I want to tell you a couple of funny stories …..
Back when we live with Juanita and Steve…. before we moved out… before the murders.
David was terrified of spiders. He would so freak out. Every night he would stand in the doorway of the bedroom. Swishing water in his mouth. Pop his knee caps and neck and look around the room. LOOKING FOR SPIDERS!
In our bedroom right above the bed was a hole in the ceiling. if you ask me it was a gunshot hole.
it was perfectly round and about 1/2 to 3/4” round. At night David though that a spider would come out of this hole. He would wake up in the middle of the night and turn on the light to look. Swearing that he could feel the spiders looking at him in the dark. After a few nights of this… I stood up on the bed and plugged the whole with the cover of the paperback book I had by the bed. This seemed to work. A few weeks went by and he stopped looking at the hole before he got into bed. So one night I unplugged the hole when he went to the bathroom. He came back to bed and fell asleep. Suddenly he wakes up screaming. He turns the light on and looks up and sure enough… there was a spider on the ceiling. Very close to the unplugged hole. It gave me great satisfaction.
We could get into the whole psychology of just that one passage but I won’t for now, we can clearly see how Christine started to realize how to use this either getting even or controlling David and that she felt and still feels good about it. I’m not judging it’s understandable, I’m pretty sure she discussed this in her therapy and it is good to talk about it and be honest about it, as I have stated many times I believe Christine to answer many questions but she will never be able to answer our questions if she can’t answer, clear up or come to terms with what’s in her mind like she has been able to do with the spiders and David.
Mrs. Thompson, sorry I know I kind of went all over the place on this one but the psychology of those involved is an aspect that shouldn’t be forgotten and not just David and Christine but others like Gayle Kelly. What is their mental make up and how could or would that have played out in the circumstances that surrounded this case?
patsportal, I guess there is a valid question in your post somewhere and since I like to have my questions answered and like hearing myself talk I will put it like this. I believe David Spence is guilty and my feelings and thoughts on that have only grown stronger over the last few years now that I have been ale to talk to a few people. I think when you put everything that is out there together, police reports, testimony and things that were never brought up during the trials I have little to no doubt David is guilty. I feel the same way about the Melendez brothers but maybe not as strong, there is a little wiggle room. It’s the dishonesty the family has had a history of displaying that does it for me. And then I do believe Muneer Deeb at least put the idea in David’s head that he could get money if he killed Kenneth Franks and Gayle Kelly. joke or no joke I don’t know David didn’t take it as a joke. I was stocked he walked and then got treated like he was some hero for human rights. This was a guy that stalked girls, threatened them with violence, was in violation of his visa and didn’t care about the laws of the land, even if they couldn’t prove the case against him on the murders getting to walk scot free was a miscarriage of Justice.
So what are the questions I still have, there are many but I will run down just a few. Did the victims and their killers just run into each that day or had some prearranged meeting been planned, were other people involved or knew what was planned or what happened, when did they know before or after, did they take in any part of the crime and that includes after the fact, was there more than one vehicle used in some way, what happened to all the missing articles; e.g. clothes, purses and other personal effects, how did Jill’s paycheck stubs end up laying on the ground, whom did this, when and why. I think that last one could answer a lot of questions. So that’s a few questions that come to mind right off but I know there are plenty of others.
Yes I believe David and the Melendez brothers are guilty but there are questions, is it enough to create reasonable doubt? Reasonable doubt is subjective, what I might see as reasonable doubt but not enough to acquit, others might feel it creates too much reasonable doubt and cannot convict. I just saying by what I’ve seen I think I was sitting in the jury I would have voted guilty but I’ve seen a lot of stuff a jury knew saw or heard about. I hope that helps clear things up for you, I like to have more people in the conversation.
BKL67, the one lady is Jill Montgomery’s aunt and the one girl that doesn’t talk to you anymore was David Spence’s girlfriend at the time. Who are you and how are you connected to the case?
patsportal, I would like to hear from those people more too but you have to get them to talk. You don’t know how many people I have tried to contact and tried to get to talk, a lot of these people haven’t talked in decades and still don’t want to talk. It’s a lot easier said than done, trust me on that one.
Brian do you think there is any connection between Robert Frueh and Mr. Franks and Kenny King? They lived on the same street and they all were homosexuals.
CC, back sometime ago I really thought that was a good possibility, if David and the brothers didn’t do it. The whole homosexual thing kept coming up, not only Mr. Franks and Robert Frueh but there was Drury Singleton and James Lucas. And with Lucas the two boys he picked up said he took them to a house on Rambler Street to get drugs. Kenneth Franks was seen on that street the day he was murdered. His girlfriend of the time Michelle Lewis lived on that street but she didn’t see him that day. They had planned to get together later that evening but Kenneth had called her that evening and told her that some friends had come to town and he was going to hang with them, that would have been Jill Montgomery. Then we have DeAnna Storst, she lived in the same apartment complex as Michelle, she lived like right next door, one apartment number was like 7 and the other was 9. That is how Deanna met Kenneth about the week before. But Deanna was the girl that reported seeing Kenneth in Frueh’s car that night. When she first called she didn’t know the license plate number and was told when she found that to call back, which she did a couple weeks later. I wondered where DeAnna had seen the car the second time and if it was on the street she lived. This wasn’t the case, so that line of thinking really didn’t pan out, just another dead end and I haven’t seen anything else that would re-spark any real interest in going down that path again. Not saying there isn’t anything out there I just haven’t seen it, I don’t want to discourage anybody if they want to look in that direction.
That’s a very strong possibility. Do you know what his address was on Rambler? The police knew what address James Lucas took the boys. It was the drug connection that was intriguing to me.
CC84., while on a trip to Waco one day, we drove through Savanah Courts. That street enters off Lakeshore Drive and curves into a circle as it exits back onto Lakeshore. R. Frank’s Townhouse is directly across from R. Frueh’s. In other words, the Back side of their homes were practically together. They were very close neighbors. (Just a comment)
bkl67…I have a question for you. In all your research have you ever found anything concerning the making of a “snuff film” in the Lake case.
Very early into the investigation, family members were told that was a possibility. I realize they were looking into numerous scenarios. However, I later was told that R. F rueh indulged in movie making during the orgies he held at his home.
I realize this could be “just another rabbit trail”, but I know Jill could have been pulled into a situation like that. She did love attention !
Hello rs7236–have you come across evidence that Robert Frueh filmed people or that he had orgies? Did the police say this? I have also heard the movie making rumor–but with a slightly different twist–that he filmed kids in their cars having sex out at the lake and that they did not know about it.
Mrs. Thompson, the only thing I remember seeing about Robert Frueh and films was from Benny Poston, his wife Donna worked with Mr. Frueh at Four C college. Mr. Poston stated that Frueh would take people to his home, ply them with alcohol and drugs and show pornographic movies. Did Mr. Frueh make these movies? As you know there isn’t much about Frueh in the police reports for the Lake Waco Murders. We have Bennie Poston’s statement. Then there was Ronald Robinson, that’s the guy that saw Frueh in Koehne about 1:30 a.m. which was in line with what Frueh would tell police in November when they finally got around to talking to him. Robinson changed his story the second time he was interviewed. Robinson and Frueh agreed on the time but Frueh stated he talked to two subjects that were in a pick-up with two girls and didn’t say anything about talking to Robinson, whom was in a blue Duster and Robinson still had the piece of paper Frueh had handed him with his phone number and address. And finally there was DeAnna Storst and you definitely know more about that.
I think what we need to do is find out what criminal behavior Robert Frueh was involved in that the police were aware of, see if there is anything in those records. The picture they pulled to show DeAnna was listed as PD#26151, I’ll try to find what case that is connected to and try to find what charges he faced while he was in Waco. This might be a little more difficult, when I tried to find what the Waco Police Department had on Clifford Oliver I was told I had to narrow it down, I’m still working on that. And they couldn’t find anything connected to the name Patti Deis. I was looking for what happened to the physical evidence collected from her apartment after the first break-in, I still wonder what happened to that.
blk167–According to an article in the Waco Tribune Herald dated 3/10/73, Robert was moving into a house at 802 Rambler Dr. He moved to Rambler when he moved to Waco to take over a small church there.
Regarding comment about Benny Poston and RF and porn films–I wonder how he knew for sure about those films. There is so much rumor that it’s hard to find the truth about RF. I’m not saying he wasn’t guilty of some of these things, but that a gay man in the eighties in Waco was considered a perv by virtue of being gay.
The rumors about his death support my speculation, i.e. he picked up a young innocent walking or hitchhiking down the highway, took him home and tried to seduce him and the guy stabbed him repeatedly in an effort to defend himself. I’ve heard this story so many times from people who lived in Waco back then.
Of course I also have to be aware of my own innate bias. I knew RF as a very different person and it’s hard to change perspectives. Please rs3276 and blk167, know that I mean no disrespect when I question statements. I’m looking for facts behind the conjecture. Though when there is this much conjecture, one thinks there must be something to it. I do.
HGG, we can only speculate how Poston knew this, just another example when the police don’t ask the obvious question. This wasn’t the first time and wouldn’t be the last, just to mention a couple that are totally mind boggling. When the police first talked to Kenneth Franks’ friends on July 14th and 15th, they were asked about Kenneth’s friends and people he knew but never asked if there was anybody he was having any problems with. On July 20th when the police finally were able to talk to ask Gayle Kelly they never asked her about Muneer Deeb even though the police were informed, just the day before, by Lisa Kader, a girl that lived on the same unit as Gayle at the Methodist Home, that Deeb had killed Kenneth because of Gayle. Just think what different answers we could have now if the police just asked a couple simple questions, questions people would reasonably expect. That leaves us to speculate, which I will do.
Bennie Post stated that Robert Frueh would invite couples to his home and show the movies. I don’t know if Poston knew this from personal experience or not, if he did I would guess Frueh had asked the Postons over at some point, knowing Donna from work. Another thing I think needs to be taken into consideration, the late 70’s and early 80’s were a boom period for the porn industry, of coarse before the internet, because of video tape. Everyone was getting VCRs in their homes. Poston informs police this is how Frueh showed the movies at his home, with video equipment. I would lean toward this being the case for Robert Frueh, he just went to the nearest video store and rented porn, not making his own. With going into the store and renting these movies and being seen would surely lend itself to rumors, ” Hey you know that preacher that comes in and rents porn” and then the rumors spread from there and we know what happens when rumors start to spread, it becomes Frueh is making his own movies and this and that. Saying Robert Frueh was a perv was my own commentary,I’ve never seen the police make a comment anything close to that, yes there is mention Frueh was gay but it looks like that was well known. The second time the police talked to Ronald Robinson, July 25th, he states the guy he saw at the park on the night of the murders reminded him of a substitute teacher he had in junior high that was gay named Mr. Frueh and it was. Robinson was in his early twenties in 1982 so it had been about 8 to 10 years since he was in junior high, by his statement we would have to figure that Frueh being gay was known by some people way back then. What other behavior others might have been aware of I don’t know, my comment was to Robert Frueh’s overall lifestyle, mainly hiding being the cloth per se, that’s a certain type of deviousness, whatever you want to call it. HGG my point being we still don’t know what people might have known about Robert Frueh, including the person that killed him. You mentioned the rumors you have heard and how they support your speculation about his death, I would caution bending facts to match rumor is a losing battle. The information the killer gave the police when he confessed goes against what you are saying and keep in mind we still don’t know the identity of the killer at this point, so unless the people that are spreading the rumors know this identity they are at best giving second hand accounts, not very reliable.
The guy that confessed did not say Frueh picked him up hitch hiking, this could be the case again without knowing the identity how can we say for sure Frueh ever picked him up. What he states is he met Frueh through a mutual friend, I would speculate this connection could have been made through the church. Jeff Williams, the pastor knew this guy from church, the same church Frueh had a connection to. Again we can speculate that the guy knew Frueh was gay for sometime and if so he must have been comfortable around Mr. Frueh at least comfortable enough to do business with him, he stated he had been running drugs for Frueh for some time. We don’t know if Frueh and this individual had any sexual encounters prior to the day Frueh was killed, As the killer tells police he killed Frueh when Frueh didn’t come up with the money. The killer might not have been happy about the sexual encounter but it’s Frueh’s inability to pay him that causes him to attack Frueh, this is clearly stated in the report. Throws into question self defense I would say a better argument could be made for a drug deal gone bad, business partners in drug dealing had a fallen out over money. Either way it’s speculation. HGG I don’t take any offense or object to you questioning, criticizing, or critiquing my statements, that’s why we are here, I’m glad you have joined the conversation and what you have been able to add, you were the one that opened up this subject and led us to delve into it deeper to find the facts and that’s what needs to be done, even if it is to just discount Robert Frueh in any connection to this case. That is the interest here is Robert Frueh connected in anyway? HGG you have people asking questions rather there is a drug connection with Kenneth Franks and Robert Frueh. We need to look into that, I have a few thoughts on that, I’ll start a new post on that, this reply is getting long enough. It’s all good.
bk67–I did not mean in my earlier post that I believed the rumors about R picking up a hitchhiker. I was trying to make the point that these rumors were believed and spread by folks who had an opinion of R because he was a gay baptist preacher and to be fair because they had heard that he cruised the lake. They were so sure they were right–and that made me question their story. I think much of the speculation about Robert and perhaps even the redaction of the murderer’s name may have to do with his homosexuality. Robert’s murder was not self defense and the question remains about how and whether the case was prosecuted.
One thing, you said in your post below that the pastor Jeff Williams, Robert and Robert’s murderer knew each other through church. Have you read this somewhere?
Also like you, I read, maybe in Mike Hall’s article, that there rumors that Kenneth was involved in drug dealing–also read that there were rumors he owed someone money–I think it was $5,000–but I may be wrong about that. If I’m right, that’s the same amount of money over which Robert was killed a few years later.
HGG, you have me a little confused are you questioning if Robert Frueh was gay? I can’t see his homosexuality or rumor of such having anything to do with the redaction. If people knew or thought he was gay and knew he was murdered, which as far as I know was made public, what would that have to do with the redaction? The redaction is done to protect and/or hide the killer for whatever reason it’s not done in anyway to shield Robert Frueh from rumors about his lifestyle. I don’t think there is any question if the case was prosecuted, it wasn’t. Why is the question. That’s why I asked you if you knew any of Robert’s family. What if you had a family member murdered and the state decided not to prosecute? You would want answers, I would think it would have been the same for Robert’s family. His brother Delbert is mentioned in the report. It would be interesting to hear what the family has to say about it. I haven’t seen where the family ever made an issue about the status of the case, tells me they accepted the reasoning whatever it was.
About Jeff Williams, Robert Frueh and his murderer knowing each other from church, I stated I was speculating as saying Robert picked up his killer hitch hiking would be. I did say meeting through church sounded to me more likely. Jeff Williams told police he was the killer’s pastor, that connects those two through the church, it was the same church Robert Frueh was associated with. That we can connect all three individuals to that church makes it a good possibility that is how they met, but again it’s just speculation.
I also remember reading something about Kenneth owing money, I didn’t think it was $5,000 I thought it was $500 I can be wrong. The two people that came to mind right off were two of the boys that lived at the Methodist Home and talked to police; Kenneth Adkisson and Mike Sutton, I remembered both had mentioned an altercation and I thought one of them mentioned this, so I did look this up real fast. Adkisson did say Kenneth owed someone money but the amount he stated was $150. The other person that comes to mind that could have said something about this was Rusty Escott but I don’t put any value in anything he says, his story telling abilities have been solidly proven. I will go back and look over what he might have said about this or there were others that might have said something to this effect.
Questioning the connection(s) between Kenneth Franks and Robert Frueh, well at least my thoughts on it but please contribute any thoughts and questions. OK, there are the two obvious connections. First they both lived on Savannah Court; Franks at 2804 and Frueh at 2934, so there is a very strong possibility they at least knew each other, I think it is safe to say it is more probable than not. Then we have the widely alleged drug, mostly marijuana, activity of both, again to differing degrees I think this has been rather well established, still there are enough rumors floating around to question the exact nature of this activity. As with most rumors there is usually some truth to them but as the rumors spread the details and facts become distorted. I would be remiss if I failed to mention we do have the account of DeAnna Storst, she reported to police she saw Kenneth Franks with Robert Frueh in his car the night of the murders. Beyond this do we have anything else? Do we even have a hint or rumor of any animosity or drug dealing between Franks and Frueh? That’s the problem I run into connecting Frueh to this crime, I’m not saying Frueh might have given or sold Franks weed at some point but with all the rumors that were going around about both that there isn’t at least one rumor of this stands out. Many kids told police about Kenneth’s alleged drug use and dealing, Robert Frueh’s name never came up once in this regard.
If we believe in a drug connection and that connection had something to do with the murders, I believe drugs or at least the idea of a drug deal played a part, we have to look at what information is out there. Many kids knew the Melendez brothers sold weed at the high schools, we have Deeb giving or selling weed to the girls from the Methodist Home but no one knows where he was getting his supply. David Spence was suppose to be a regular drug user but he didn’t have a job or money so where was he getting his drugs and the same can be said about Kenneth, it was widely reported he smoked and sold weed but where was he getting his supply and his money? Could it have been Robert Frueh? Is there anything out there that could help us answer this?
We always run into a problem picking to believe one rumor over another or blindly believing one person over another and it is no different here. But there is one statement made to police that I put more weight in than I do the others, This would be what Gayle Kelly told Mike Nicoletti when she was first interviewed on July 20, 1982. Trust me I know all about putting to much faith into what Gayle Kelly says but there is something about this statement, I think it has to do with the detail, something she usually fails to give. With most of Gayle’s interactions with law enforcement at the time you can see she always gives the minimalist answer, always saying as little as possible even to the point you feel she is not telling the truth and not telling all she knows. She reacts a little different during this July 20th interview. During this interview she states Kenneth had told her he was planning to make a lot of money on a drug deal. Kenneth wouldn’t give her the name of the person he was making the deal with for her own safety. He told her it was somebody she knew and that this person had left Waco and come back recently. Whom was this mysterious person? Could Robert Frueh fit this description? Actually I asked Gayle about this, I actually ran some names past her, she told me she did not know any of the names I asked her about. I did not ask her about Robert Frueh. The person Kenneth told her about she would have known but wouldn’t have known Kenneth was dealing with him. This is one of the many reasons I give as to why Terry “Tab” Harper wasn’t involved in these murders, Gayle Kelly knew him and was aware Kenneth dealt with him, if the person that killed Kenneth was the same that he planned to make this deal with it had to be somebody she didn’t know was dealing with Kenneth and some one there was some reason to feel there was something to worry about. Again, could this be Robert Frueh? Did the kids know something about Frueh that gave them some reluctance to deal with him. And don’t forget we have information that Jill might have had some hesitation about something before going to Waco that day. After Jill asked her mother about what do you do when you love some one that you know is bad for you, her mother states she felt something was wrong with Jill, she was moody and would not talk. So we have two independent accounts that Kenneth and Jill might have realized they were dealing with some one they had worries about. Robert Frueh? We can ask Gayle if she knew Robert Frueh and if she knew about any dealings Kenneth had with him but I don’t know where that would get us, I would say David Spence better fits as being this guy. He had returned to Waco from prison about a year before. At least the girls knew David from partying at the lake, Gayle told me he and the Melendez brothers were always trying to befriend them, like the girls didn’t want anything to do with them. I have never been able to find if this is true or not but one time Gayle Kelly asked me if I knew what David Spence had done to Bobby Brem. Bobby Brem was Kenneth Franks’ best friend, some of the girls that ran away from the Home stayed at Bobby’s house including Jill Montgomery and Gayle Kelly, they were all friends, if Bobby had an altercation with David Spence it’s more than likely that his friends knew about this and this could have been a reason to be weary about dealing with him. Now I have to admit when Gayle told me this I had to ask her if she was mixing up names, I had never heard this before, there were some rumors about an altercation that may have involved some combination of Kenneth, Bobby and a Tony. I asked Gayle if maybe she was mixing up Bobby with Darvin Pack. She would never reply, very troubling making a statement like that and then not being able to answer a simple yes or no question about it. Then I tried to ask Bobby Brem and he would not answer, again a simple yes or no answer would do, he should know if he had an altercation with David or not. Then I asked Kenneth Adkisson, another kid that lived at the Home at the time and is friends with Gayle Kelly, actually he was one of the boys that told the police about the fight that occurred between Kenneth and Bobby and/or Tony but he wouldn’t answer either. Doesn’t look like Kenneth Franks’ friends like Gayle Kelly and Bobby Brem are interested in clearly things up and helping find the truth, with friends like this Kenneth Franks didn’t need any enemies. But it’s these same people we will need to find if there was any other connection between Kenneth Franks and Robert Frueh.
FYI, trusted sources have told me that Robert was friends with Kennth’s father, Richard. I’m fairly certain there was a connection. But I do not believe Robert had anything to do with the murders. He may have known something about what was happening at the lake. I’m not convinced R was dealing drugs–despite testimony of his murderer. Why didn’t the police question R more about the Lake Waco Murders–this seems so odd to me.
HGG, I’m not disputing Richard Franks and Robert Frueh knew each other and by extention Kenneth would have known Robert Frueh, I think that has been well established. I guess I don’t know how to put this correctly but we all have parents and our parents probably have friends and we would probably know these friends to differing degrees. I personally still don’t know how Mr. Franks and Mr. Frueh first became acquainted, was it just because they lived in the same neighborhood or as I have asked before and never found an answer was it maybe through church since it looks like both men were active in church? And then what about Kenneth and Mr. Frueh; would it have been out of place to see them together, maybe like Frueh giving Kenneth rides at times or would that have been something Kenneth’s friends were use to seeing? I don’t know either way, so I can’t say it would be strange and questionable if they were together or not. But to be honest I really haven’t looked into this very much, I don’t believe Robert Frueh had anything to do with the murders or knew anything about them. I think he’s a red herring, some people were aware of some of his behavior and mentioned him to police and he was in Koehne Park that night. I do believe Robert Frueh was involved in drugs in some way. Not only do we have the account from his killer but Ronald Robinson stated Frueh asked if he wanted something to smoke, that’s my own wording I can’t remember the exact wording from the report, Robinson said it was hash and that he was familiar with hash because he had been around it before. And why didn’t the police question Robert Frueh more about the Lake Waco Murders? Good question but it was just another thing they missed or didn’t follow up before they suspended the case on September 3rd. After Vic Feazell was elected in November they (Waco Police) went back over their records and finally got around to some of the things they had failed to do the first time around and in my own opinion it was a half hearted effort then.
That was one of the things I was asking last night. We can still ask her now, I just don’t know how much faith we can put in her answer or if she would even give one. I just know from before when I ran a couple names across her she told me she didn’t know any of the names I mentioned, there was one I was pretty sure she would have known and then when I explained who he was and why I thought she would have known him she didn’t have anything to say. I will try again.
There may be a way for me to find out if RF left Waco for a time, then came back. I’ve always assumed that since he pastored a church–more than a full time job–he couldn’t have. But maybe he took a sabbatical then returned. I’ll look into it.
bkl67, & HGG….I have nothing going to back up my suspicion concerning films other than:
Very early into the investigation, I was told by one of the investigators they were working on the scenario of a snuff film. I didn’t even know what that was. I asked someone, “what does that mean?” I do not remember which investigator talked to me about it. At that time, we (family) were getting most of our info from Salinas, D. Baier, Simon’s.
Another person who carried a camera with him at all times, RICHARD FRANK’S. Court Judge finally told him he could not continue to bring the large camera/and case into the Court room. He had been taking pictures of Juanita Spence and she complained.
Mrs. Thompson I don’t know anything about the possibility of snuff films, I would say that idea pops up from time to time in cases. There were rumors the the Manson Family made snuff films. They had stolen some film equipment somewhere along the line. There were people willing to pay to get a hold of these movies, including Ed Sanders the author of The Family. Again there were rumors of snuff films being made by the zodiac killer or more precisely suspect Rick Marshall, he had worked at a theater and collected or kept films. Nothing ever came of it in either case. I would guess as long as Richard Franks was a viable suspect and the police knew he made video tapes, remember he video taped the car belonging to the Gutierrez brothers for whatever reason, that still hasn’t made sense to me, the police kept all options open.
And Mrs. Thompson I’m not sure what you would know about this but didn’t Mr. Franks and David’s mother have some kind of confrontation during the trial for the Pack incident?
bkl67. Yes, there was a confrontation between Juanita and Richard. The best of my recollections is Richard went to Juanita and told her to tell her son to admit what he had done. Richard told me that he “begged” her to do so. R had been taking pictures of her and she became very upset.
This happened at the court house.
Mrs. Thompson, very interesting point. Do you think maybe his drinking had something to do with why he wasn’t very cooperative with the police early on?
Bkl67 Richard appeared to ALWAYS be under the influence. Everyone talked about his use of drugs. Even his own x wife.(Kenneth’s mother, Sandra Sadler) .
Mrs. Thompson, no sarcasm, sorry I was about to walk out so I just made a speedy comment because I definitely want to hear about this. I’ve never heard this before, Heard plenty that Mr. Franks was a heavy drinker but have never heard drugs mentioned before. You know I have always questioned how Mr. Franks acted but you can’t judge someone’s grief or make a fair assessment of that grief and I think it would be more difficult when it’s tied to a brutal crime. But if Mr. Franks was not just a heavy drinker but also a heavy drug user we might have to look at some of his actions in a different light and then questions arise. And what kind of drugs are we talking about?
Mr. Franks was at Midway Park the night of July 13th but he did not tell law enforcement until sometime later, Sargent Robert Fortune said it was about two weeks after the murders. Why hadn’t Mr. Franks told the police he was at Midway Park that night before this? He stated he left his place a little after 9:00 p.m. went to Midway sat awhile, he was hungry so he drove to the Dairy Queen and grabbed a couple burgers then returned to the park and stayed until about midnight, he got home shortly after midnight. Midway was where Mr. Franks would find Clifford Oliver’s vandalized car the next morning. When the officers asked Mr. Franks if he had seen that car before he said he hadn’t and he didn’t know the owner of the car. Oliver and his friends hung out at Midway for about a hour to a hour and a half that night which would have been within the same time Mr. Franks had been there and he never noticed any of this? Maybe not. But why did he return to Midway the next morning when he found Clifford’s car, Mr. Franks had been there and would have known Kenneth and his friends hadn’t been there. Mr. Franks states he knew Kenneth liked to hang out at Koehne Park and went there to look for him and found Raylene’s car. Why return to Midway? Mr. Franks went out looking for the kids twice that night, the first time I think a little after 2:00 a.m., at that time he went to Koehne and he said he left a note on the car. On his second trip he would return to Koehne remove the note from the car then went to Midway, this was when he called the police shortly after 6:00 a.m.. Did Mr. Franks go to Midway Park the first time he went out? If so what did he see? Did he see a vandalized car at that time? If so why didn’t he call it in then? I don’t know the answers to any of these questions, all I know is since Mr. Franks waited about two weeks to tell the police that he was at Midway Park that night he didn’t have to answer some of those questions and would have had time to work on his story.
If I’m not mistaken this interview where Mr. Franks disclosed that he was at Midway Park the night of July 13th was also when he made the strange and questionable statement to the effect that he was there with Kenneth the whole time when he was getting killed, I don’t think anyone took this literally, well I guess there were some people that were having some serious questions and doubts about Mr. Franks at that time. What I took this to mean was Mr. Franks knew Kenneth was having problems and Mr. Franks hadn’t done anything to help with these problems and Mr. Franks knew or believed these problems lead to his sons death, again if Mr. Franks was also involved in drugs that statement could take on a whole new meaning. Pryor to this interview Mr. Franks had said everything was going good with Kenneth that there were no problems, he had said he and Kenneth were close and got along very well and that Kenneth had never stayed out all night before. The police were finding out this wasn’t totally true. Gayle Kelly told police she and Kenneth had stayed out all night a few times. Kenneth wasn’t happy his father had gotten rid of the boat. The issue of homosexuality was pretty much skirted but Gayle had stated Kenneth had a problem with it and Mr. Franks’ boyfriend didn’t get along with Kenneth. I don’t think the police had talked to Danny McSpadden or Danny McGinnis by the time of this interview with Mr. Franks but they would repeat some of the same things as Gayle. And this is without drugs ever being mentioned but when you have a parent and their kids both using drugs usually there are problems. Before hearing Mr. Franks was using drugs I believed he was just breaking down during this interview, which I still believe is the case but there might have been more to it.
We also have the time Mr. Franks would not allow the police in his home. This was just a couple days after the murders either Thursday July 15th or Friday 16th. The police wanted to look in Kenneth’s room, Mr. Franks wouldn’t allow it, he wouldn’t even allow them in the house, again very strange but then maybe he did have something more to hide. There was a judge that lived in the same neighborhood and knew Mr. Franks; Walter Smith. Judge Smith got involved and it was worked out the police told him what they were interested in seeing in Kenneth’s room, which in itself is nearly impossible to answer because without going in and searching the room you can’t know if you will find something.or what it could be. In the end they asked for all personal letters, notes, phone numbers, which Mr. Franks brought to the station a few days later. So these are the few times Mr. Franks behavior was very questionable in those first couple weeks.
There is one other thing and I can’t say it was Mr. Franks but it has never been answered and it’s one of those things that I believe could really tell us a lot; Jill’s pay check stubs. Four of Jill’s pay check stubs were found on the ground around the area where the kids had parked. They weren’t found until the morning of the 15th, the day after the bodies were discovered. Tells us something about how well the police searched the area on the 14th. The police first arrived on the scene on the 14th shortly after 9:00 a.m. after Mr. Franks filed a missing persons report. The Pinto the kids had driven to the park would stay there until after 2:00 p.m on the 14th by then it was thought the kids probably were not going to return so the car was impounded. The check stubs would be found the next day when officers went back to search the area again. We don’t know the who, when or how the check stubs got where they were found. Mrs. Thompson I know we have talked about this privately and I know I have mentioned these stubs a few times here, I think they are very important. I’m not sure if you remember our conversation on this but I asked you if you thought Jill would have carried these checks loosely or put them in her purse. I thought it was most likely she would have kept them in her purse, hey that’s why girls carry purses around in the first place so they can carry all kinds of stuff with them. Mrs. Thompson you concurred and I still believe this was the case, Jill had those stubs in her purse. Again we can’t be 100% sure on this, she could have put them in the glove compartment or somewhere else in the car. But if they were in her purse it would mean the purses were in the car when the stubs were taken out, what happen to the purses? And that the girls left their purses in the car could tell us something else.
If we take it that the stubs were in the purses and the purses were left in the car and we also know the car was left unlocked what does that tell us? It gives us a couple scenarios One; the kids were dragged away so fast they didn’t have time to react. I doubt this because there were about a dozen people around at anytime in the park that night , no one stated seeing any kind of altercation or struggle and I can’t believe the kids would have been forced to leave with some one without putting up some kind of resistance and some one would have seen that or taken notice. And other than the defensive slash wounds on Jill’s hand there really aren’t any other defensive wounds, you would expect to find some if there was more of a struggle or if the kids were forcibly removed from the park, that’s just not the case. At least one of the kids knew the person they left with. The other, more likely scenario , the girls left their purses in the car and the car was left unlocked because they weren’t planning to go far maybe not even planning to leave the park. Meet someone at the park, get in their car to take care of some kind of personal business, probably drugs, getting out and going on their merry way but that’s not what happened for whatever reason. But if it was the killers that went through the purses what were they looking for? Was it just a straight out drug burn, kids meet the killers for drug deal , get drugs and then the people they made the deal with come back to take the drugs back? I doubt this, it would mean the kids would have had to gotten up with their killers two different times, once to make the deal and then they would have the drugs in the car and then getting up with these people again when they would take off with them and never return. Doesn’t make sense, why would the kids get up with these people a second time if they already had what they wanted? There are clues for a much more likely scenario.
I know I’m repeating this again but there is reason to believe Jill and Kenneth had some reservations about something they were doing or getting into. With Jill we have her mother’s observations and with Kenneth we have what Gayle Kelly said about the deal he was planning to make. we also have the fact that Kenneth left his keys in the back seat of the car, something Mr. Franks said he told Kenneth to do if he was in trouble and probably the reason Mr. Franks knew something was wrong when he did see Kenneth’s keys in the backseat. I know this sounds strange, I thought so to when I first heard it but I can see where it makes sense when we put the other information together with it. Ok so the kids are planning to make a drug deal or what they think will be a drug deal with some one they don’t trust, how could they protect their interest if not their own beings? You’re making a drug deal with some one you don’t trust you don’t flash your money. The girls left their money in their purses, they wanted to see the goods first. They get in the car but there are no drugs, they have to be taken somewhere to get them, not the kids plan but they go along with it but there aren’t any drugs this starts the confrontation in the car, things turn violent and we know the brutal end. Then the killers come back to the car later to get the money. Going through the purses looking for the money Jill’s check stubs get thrown out and are found on the ground later. If this was the case when did the killers return? Later that same night? What about the next morning? I would point out David Spence and Clifford Oliver returned to the park the next morning. Clifford stated they never touched the Pinto, they were just sitting on the table closest to the Pinto, it was still there when they went to Koehne Park that morning.
That is just speculation on how the check stubs came to be where they were found if the killers were responsible. Nothing to do with Mr. Franks. But if the killers didn’t throw out the stubs who else could have? What about Mr. Franks? He admitted he went through the car trying to find a way to contact the girls parents. If Mr. Franks did this why didn’t he say so? And if the check stubs were in Jill’s purse and Mr. Franks went through the purse what happened to the purses? They were never found. If Mr. Franks took the purses even if it was just some bad mistake he made when he was drunk, again why doesn’t he just say I took the purses, make up some reason like he thought it wasn’t a good idea to leave the purses in the car and took them for safe keeping? But then what if Mr. Franks did have some serous drug problem and he is high at the time and he finds the purses and the money in the purses and decides to take both? Maybe another reason why Mr. Franks didn’t want the police looking around his place. I don’t know, I like the earlier scenario better but when you add drugs and Mr. Franks to the equation other possibilities surface.
Brian, very compelling I see you are refining your theory.
rs7236, do you think he’s on to something or do you think he’s just crazy?
What do others think, if David Spence didn’t do it who did? I see a lot of people saying David didn’t do it, if not somebody did, who? I never see that.
bakersfieldvero , he committed a similar crime here in California. Abducted 2 girls tied them up and raped them. In both cases he was able to get the girls in areas that had a lot of people around.
Fred Dannen claimed to have all kinds of proof of his scenario. He stated to me “he had a storage building full” and it would all come out in his book. That was in 200l !!! NO book 17 years later ! However, his story on T. HARPER and a few more people was fairly convincing back then. Now, not so convincing ! My question to F.D., “why?”..
According to F.D. T.Harper was Richard and Kenneth Frank’s drug supplier. Another “rabbit trail, or something to check out?”
rs7236–if T Harper as weed? supplier to the Franks is a rabbit trail, it’s an interesting one. I wonder what the hell happened to Dannen re:that book. Was it the DNA test stalling out? I’m not talking about where he went, what he’s doing, etc, but why he’s not publishing. I wonder if he found something that contradicted his theory.
HGG. You asked the $64,000 question .
Dannen collected advances & had everyone convinced the book would be published within one year (in 2001). I was involved in Dannen receiving the evidence from David Chapman where it was turned over to Pat Eddings with the Forensic Lab for dna testing. Whatever happened after that is a long story, too much for here. Shortly after this Dannen left for Mexico. Michael Hall illustrated this case as going in dozens of different directions in his Texas Monthly article. He was SO RIGHT ON!!
Update on records request, the records I requested on Robert Frueh have been sent to the city attorney, there might be some legal issue in getting those records, I was told I might have to narrow the scope of my request, they do not release a complete criminal history. I should hear something in a few days.
Records on Patti Deis and the break-in of her apartment are non- existent, they looked for days. I asked how this could be, I was told Patti Deis could have requested to have her records expunged, sounded reasonable. But after I got off the phone I thought about that for awhile and I wondered if she wanted her records expunged wouldn’t she have wanted her name removed/redacted from the Lake Waco Murders, which clearly isn’t the case. Why only have the records about the break-in removed? The break-ins are still mentioned in the Lake Waco Murders reports. So I don’t know. I decided I would ask her about this not that I expect an answer she has never responded before but I have to try.
My request on the police records of Clifford Oliver don’t seem to have any problems. So I guess we will get to see what interactions he had with law enforcement in 1982 and what offenses he was charged with and if he was ever convicted. And finally I sent off my request for the records on James Lucas, I didn’t want to put in too many request at one time but with the Patti Deis request at an end I figured I could send another.
Mrs. Thompson, getting into this stuff about Robert Frueh reminds me of a conversation we had, I think it was early last year. I asked you if you knew where DeAnna Storst saw Robert Frueh the second time when she called the police. I wondered if it was Rambler Drive. Now with the information HGG gave that Robert Frueh had lived on Rambler and your comment about Mr. Franks’ drug use, I think it’s a good time to get into it again.
A little refresher for those that might wonder what I’m rambling on about this time. As you all know I believe David Spence, the Melendez brothers and Muneer Deeb were guilty but if they weren’t there are definitely enough other possibilities. When I first read the police reports one thing that stood out to me was the amount of attention the homosexual community garnered at the time, maybe there is something to it. Richard Franks, Robert Frueh, James Lucas, Drury Singleton among others. I don’t want to sound like I’m gay bashing, that’s why I really don’t get into this very much but we do have to remember the general public’s view on homosexuality has changed quite a bit since 1982, the homosexual community as a whole was more cloistered back then and that would including their illicit activities particularly drug dealings. Gays would be inclined or prefer to deal with other gays. For junkies, crackheads and meth heads feigning for a fix but short on funds and looking for a easy target to knock off, the homosexual community fit the bill, real gay bashing. Is this plausible? Could a drug deal gone bad or a rip off or an unpaid debt among the homosexual community been the true cause behind the murders. I doubt it but I do believe it is worth looking into.
Starting with what we know; Kenneth Franks was seen on Rambler Driver the day he was murdered, the boy that saw him thought Kenneth was going to see his girlfriend, Michelle Lewis or Schilling, she lived on Rambler. Michelle did not see Kenneth that day, they had planned to see each other that evening but Kenneth called Michelle after he heard from Jill and told Michelle he had some friends in town and that he wanted to hang out with them. Not much there own it’s own but I would ask why was Kenneth on Rambler Drive that day, did he know someone else that lived on that street?
Rambler Driver was also where James Lucas took the Payne brothers when he picked them up from Koehne Park. The brothers stated they smoked weed with Lucas and were offered angel dust (PCP). I would add angel dust is kind of the forgotten drug because overdoses are not as common with angel dust as with other drugs but it is a very deadly and dangerous drug, PCP is more associated with death by misadventure. Angel dust gives you the high energy boost of cocaine and the fuzzy distorted perception of reality of LSD. Suicides and violent behavior are more common with PCP use, people will just snap out and will not remember what they did. I just thought I would throw that out there. So we have Lucas taking the boys to Rambler Drive where drugs could be obtained. The questions; what was the address and who lived there? That’s what I’m hoping to find in the records, Lucas gave police this information.
Now I’m only speculating here, what if the address is the same as Robert Frueh’s when he lived on Rambler? Could Frueh have known this person and if the Franks dealt with Frueh could they have also known this person? Could have Kenneth had a problem with this person, could he have owed this person money? Even if the address Lucas took the boys and Frueh’s old address aren’t the same, I think finding out where Lucas went and whom lived there should be looked into. Can we connect Kenneth Franks to this person? Maybe the “someone” that slipped through the cracks and never was mentioned before.
Vero, James “Blinky” Lucas was like Robert Frueh, he liked young boys, would troll the parks and coax the boys with drugs and then do crazy stuff like Robert Frueh but Lucas wasn’t a preacher. The other thing than stands out about Lucas was when he was questioned about the Lake Waco Murders, he did an O.J., “Well this is how I would have done it” but the stuff he said had actually happened. He said he would have cut the fence right where the fence had been cut. He told people the girls had been violated with foreign objects, I’m still not sure how he knew about that. Then there was something about the girls purses but maybe the Payne brother made this up, they said Lucas had told them he knew where the purses were because he had thrown them up in a tree. One of the brothers climbed the tree but the purses were never found but if this statement was true it would show Lucas knew that the girls purses were missing. Now this was in August 1982, I don’t know how much information the public had at that time. Anyway it was all very strange.
Bkl67. I don’the know if you recognize any “physic ability”, but I will throw this out there because this is first time I have heard about this “James or Payne” story.
In 1983 a physic Karen Huffstetler, told me and Simons/Salinas that there was something up in a tree close to where Jill died. If they would let her, she would find it. They took Karen and me to Speegleville, she looked for the tree and claimed to find it. She wanted to climb the tree, but couldn’t . I remember there was a big nail in the tree, but couldn’t see anything else. Karen claimed that Jill had gotten away and was running when he caught her by the tree.
Now, please understand, I am not saying I believe this, but you mentioning the tree, jogged my memory of that day. It was very disturbing for me.
bkl67. To answer where Deanna spotted Frueh the 2nd time, it was on Valley Mills Drive at an intersection. She and her husband to be noticed the car and the driver as the one at the lake. She called police with license #. Btw….I have always believed the information Deanna gave the police. We communicated for years after. Lost touch then found she had died in 2001. Never was able to find what happened to her.
Mrs. Thompson, a lot to get into. I remember you telling me about DeAnna and you sent me the letter last year, it’s just the mention on Rambler Drive again, that’s where DeAnna lived at the time, made that little light go off in my head. I guess I should start by informing all I got the records I requested on Clifford Oliver and the assault case involving David Scott Payne, unfortunately nothing really there, I will try to work on that, more on this later.
Let’s get into the Payne brothers, William Keith and David Scott, James Lucas and Ralph Finstad, of coarse it is a little confusing and the reports I got just added to this. So I went back to the Lake Waco Murders reports. Mrs. Thompson didn’t Mr. Franks work for a Paint company? Did you know what one? Ralph Finstad worked for a Paint company. Again the story is confusing and the reports differ greatly one set of reports on the Lake Waco Murders and one set on the assault. I would say the Waco Police Department is withholding the release of a lot of the reports on the assault charge for some reason, I’m pretty sure on that. Anyway I will try to give the outline of the story as best I can.
The Payne brothers’ parents had divorced recently and the brothers were staying with their mother in Bryan, Texas. The boys got into some trouble, thief, in Bryan and the mother sent the boys to stay with their father in Waco, this was late July 1982, Both reports agree on this and they both also believe that the brothers coming forward with their information about the Lake Waco Murders was either to get the reward money or to get some kind of break on their own charges. And the assault David claimed both reports stated the wound was self inflicted, so all and all the whole story is suspect but it is interesting and when you put it with other details that have been put out there even more so.
Anyway early August the police get a call to respond to an assault at the Sambo’s restaurant, a boy was laying on the sidewalk he had been stabbed in the abdomen, this was Daivd Payne, When the police arrived David’s brother William and father Robert were there, they had already confronted the alleged stabber Ralph Finstad, who was also at the scene. The reports on the assault really doesn’t say much about how these parties had originally met or the PD is not releasing this information. There are a couple interesting things that are in these reports that aren’t in the Lake Waco Murders reports, in these reports at least one of the brothers tell the officers that Finstad had given them or agreed to give them money to keep quiet and not say anything about the murders. I think this was William Payne that told the police this, David was still in the hospital at this time. When the police interviewed David at the hospital he wasn’t much help and the officer states his statements didn’t make sense. But what I get is William had planned to meet Finstad and another person that he does not name at Koehne Park to collect the money. His story goes the brothers decided they didn’t feel safe about meeting these two guys at the park, they wanted to meet somewhere more public and that’s how they ended up at Sambo’s. That’s is roughly the Payne’s brothers’ version or original version.
Finstad of coarse had a different story, he states he was with the Payne brothers at some pizza joint and then they went to Sambo’s to meet Finstad’s nephew James Lucas. Finstad states while at Sambo’s the boys tried to get money from him trying to set him up on the murders at the lake. Generally that’s his story, I know I’m skipping some stuff but I will post the reports if anyone really wants to take the time to read them. These reports are just like the other reports I got, very difficult to read and these records don’t do much other than add more confusion to the situation. But if you didn’t notice other than Finstad saying they were suppose to meet Lucas there is very isn’t else said about Lucas. That was about to change.
So shortly after all this maybe the same day, August 3rd, the police get a call from James Lucas.he states he found a checkbook some one has lost. The police go to Mr. Lucas’ address to check this out, they find the checkbook belongs to David Payne, they ask Lucas where did he find the checkbook and he tells them Sambo’s. Now the police had just been handling the call for assault at Sambo’s and they knew Lucas was suppose to meet the parties involved in that incident so they know somethings up, so all involved are dragged down to the station and interrogated. Now the reports I got on the assault don’t really get into this too much, you have to go to the Lake Waco Murders reports to see what was said in these interviews. In the assault reports the officers conclude that the Payne brothers were just trying to blackmail or rip off Finstad and/or Lucas, they let Finstad go I don’t think he was even charged. I have to point out, I know this may look suspicious but what the police are saying in these reports is exactly what I was saying yesterday and honestly I just got these reports today, it helps confirm what I was saying. The police thought the brothers were trying to rip off these homosexuals for some reason, just like I said homosexuals were considered easy targets for this kind of behavior. But anyway let’s get into what the Lake Waco Murders reports have to say, they are more detailed.
According to the Lake Waco Murders reports the Payne brothers had just returned to Waco in late July 1982 and they were at Koehne Park, they still had their suitcases with them. The boys were swimming in the little area between the boat ramp and the circle, I guess it was like a little cove, I see it on the map but know know what people or locals called it. While there the boys were approached by a guy in a blue Datsun pick-up, this would be James Lucas. Lucas was a known homosexual and also known to ride around the parks looking for boys, sound familiar? The report is a little sketching on the chain of events, I will try to put it in an order that makes sense. So the boys and Lucas are riding around, they pick up some beer, then they go pick up Lucas’ uncle Ralph Finstad. At some point they make a stop on Rambler Driver. In the Like Waco Murders report it states that Lucas gave the officers this address and could be found in the reports on the assault, that’s why I asked for those reports but it wasn’t there. Finstad was a part time clerk at a hotel so the four go there. One correction; yesterday I stated I didn’t know how Lucas knew about some of the information about the murders he shared with the boys. The girl that worked the front desk told police she had told Lucas this and she had heard it from her mother, her mother had heard it while playing cards with the wife of a police officer. So the guys are at this hotel and some funny business goes down, the boys are asked to strip and lay on the beds, which they didn’t take to kindly to, Lucas apologizes and ends up dropping off the boys somewhere. Sometime later the boys go see Finstad at his place of work and this is when they end up at Sambo’s and the alleged assault takes place. You can see why the police were suspect about this story, first question I would have is when did Lucas and Finstad tell you about the murders? I’m not sure exactly when the police did decide to at least look into this, before they concluded the Payne brothers were trying to rip off Finstad and Lucas but they did. I would guess it was when they interviewed Lucas and he told them if he did it he would have rode down by the model airplane field cut the fence and cut through there. The police knew that had happened, some one had cut the fence there and had driven through that area. Add to that when Salinas checked out that area he found where a tree had been scraped when whatever vehicle went through there, he puts in his report the color of paint transferred from the vehicle and left on the tree was blue, Lucas had a Blue Datsun. The officer that took pictures of this area, I think it was Lyons, put in his report the paint color was green. Either way the police decide to check out this story or more precisely that Lucas had told the boys he had thrown the girls’ purses up in a tree, they take William Payne to Speegleville Park. The report says they take Payne to about a 100 yards to where the bodies were discovered, it doesn’t say if Payne directed them to this area or if that’s just where the police decided to go, they look up in the trees and Payne even climbs up in one tree, the purses aren’t found and I think that pretty much ended law enforcement’s interest in the Payne brothers’ story. Have a headache yet? I know I do.
Reminder from broken record Brian, I still believe Spence and company are guilty but with that said there are a few things that stick out about this story. Of coarse the mention of Rambler Drive, the drugs, the boys state it was Finstad that offered them the angel dust, if Mr. Franks worked with a paint company then we might have a connection with Finstad and then there is the blue Datsun and that’s not even taking into account what James Lucas said when he was interviewed. There was another person that mentioned a Blue Datsun but he doesn’t state that it was a pick-up. This was Clarence Pierce and this is what he had to say; On the night of July 13th he was riding down the highway and he came across two white males in a blue Datsun with a flat tire. Mr. Pierce decides to stop and help out these two guys change the tire, while doing so they invite him to a party at Speegleville Park, he agrees to go and follows the two guys in the Datsun. He further states while he’s at this party he sees an orange Pinto, two girls were in the front seats and two or three guys were in the back seat. His observation was the people in the Pinto were selling drugs, people kept coming and going from the car. Pierce said one of the guys in the car was white and the other was a tall and thin black guy. Around 11:00 p.m. the party started to break up, the party goers wanted to get out of there before the gate closed but he saw the Pinto drive deeper in the park before he left. Mr. Pierce’s story is very interesting not only do we have two guys in a blue Datsun but he have at least two guys one black one white in the Pinto. Remember Greg Watts and Delano King, these were the two guys that were apparently at a party telling people they had killed 3 kids by a lake outside Waco. King was well over 6 feet tall like 6’3 or 6’4 and between 170 and 180 pounds, that would be tall and thin. Well, that’s the story, make of it what you will.
Here’s what little information I did get from the reports on Clifford Oliver. Clifford was never charged, Officer Dalton talked to Clifford on August 2nd and Clifford confessed to setting up the plan to report his car stolen for the insurance money but his insurance had run out on July 1st so there was no insurance money to get. The D.A.’s office decided since there wasn’t any insurance on the car at the time and Clifford couldn’t get any money, they couldn’t charge him with insurance fraud. I have to ask has the McLennan County heard of attempting to commit a crime? If I try to rob some one but they don’t have any money and I get nothing, they can’t charge me? They also decided the didn’t have enough to charge him with filing a false police report, what about the report he made? So that was that but it makes we wonder what charges were Feazell and Bulter talking about when Clifford testified during the Grand Jury?
Mrs. Thompson, a few weeks ago you informed me that Raylene had two sisters, I only knew about Renelle, I had never heard about Reva. Do you know if Reva was older or younger than Raylene. I know Renelle was one year younger. There was something in David Payne’s checkbook. it’s a huge stretch but I thought I would mention it.
The police went through Payne’s transactions, I guess there were a few returned checks and deposit slips. The report states the checks prove Payne was in the Waco area between July 12th and July 15th, which would be at odds with what the Paynes, including the father, told police when they said the boys arrived in Waco at the end of July. I would add the boys were suppose to be in Bryan the same town where Anthony Melendez was suppose to be working. Listed in the report as check #2A for July 12th.will be to a possible name REBA or RELA. Reports states the first two letters are RE but can’t be positive on the last two. So I was thinking about names with four letters that start with RE, I could only come up with Rene, then I remembered Reva. The amount, which the officers again weren’t sure about, they write it is either $75 or $12. Seventy-Five dollars was the amount Raylene took from each of her paychecks to pay her parents for rent. Remember Raylene cashed a check for about $200 at the Piggly Wiggly at the same time as Jill. Mr. Rice was at a lost where this check could have come from, Raylene had been paid the Friday before, her parents got their $75 which was roughly half the check and Raylene went out that weekend and probably spent some money somewhere. The check Raylene cashed was a paycheck not a personal check but she was getting money from some unknown source. Again, it will take huge leaps to put that together but it was in the report so I thought I would put it out there.
Also in the reports there are a couple redactions and they are in this part of the report where these transactions are listed. The first redaction is Payne’s bank account number, that makes sense, The other redaction is the only one in the list of the transactions, really don’t know what it is, very unclear in the report; “Also in the checkbook is one -redacted- DL(Driver License?) – redacted. This belongs to a -redacted(name and address)- Tx, DOB -redacted- WM”. I wonder why this one item had to be redacted and if the name and address is the person I’m looking for and the reason I requested the report.
Final thought; Robert Frueh had lived at 808 Rambler Drive, DeAnna Storst lived at 802 Rambler Drive only a few doors down. As close if not closer as Robert Frueh and the Franks on Savannah Court.
I did take it that it was earlier than 1982. I had someone nice enough to send me the listings of the people that lived on Rambler Drive in 1982. But I do have a couple questions. The listing shows 802 Rambler as apartments. If this is the case was it so when Robert Frueh lived there and would you know his apartment number? And would you know when Robert Frueh moved out? My thinking was, again along the lines the homosexual community would have stayed to themselves as much as possible, and that James Lucas had taken the Payne brothers to an address on Rambler Drive, there could be a connection. Maybe Lucas and Frueh knew each other? Maybe there was a drug connection they used on Rambler Drive? Maybe Frueh was this drug connection when he lived on Rambler and knew the person that moved in after he moved to Savannah Court and this person continued the drug activities? Because Mr. Franks was part of this homosexual community is it possible he also dealt with these same people and with this they would have known Kenneth and been willing to deal with him? HGG I know it’s a stretch and again I don’t believe Mr. Frueh had anything to do with nor had any knowledge of the murders.
From blk167 post above: ” For junkies, crackheads and meth heads feigning for a fix but short on funds and looking for a easy target to knock off, the homosexual community fit the bill, real gay bashing. Is this plausible? Could a drug deal gone bad or a rip off or an unpaid debt among the homosexual community been the true cause behind the murders. I doubt it but I do believe it is worth looking into.”
The answer is yes. It happened all of the time and still happens now. Homophobia is real and it is lethal. That the gay community was involved in drug and dealing like many others in 82 is no surprise. That a man could be killed in a drug deal in Waco (Frueh) and the grand jury refuses to indict is beyond the pale. Grand juries almost always lead to indictment–they only hear the elements of the case that point to the need for an investigation. What happened to Frueh’s killer? Who is he? Why wasn’t there a trial?
Something else: I’ve heard from another gay source that the cops used members of the gay community as information sources regarding criminal activity. A sort of you scratch our backs, we will ignore your activities–both with drugs and sex.
HGG, on that last part about the police using members of the gay community as informants is what I was putting forward about the guy that killed Robert Frueh. He would have been the perfect informant. You have this young guy that had been running drugs for a known homosexual, young guy kills homosexual after questionable encounter, In the police view do you throw away this young guy’s life, which would have been the case if they prosecute him or do you make a deal and use him for better purposes? He would have a lot of knowledge and know the places he went and even if he didn’t know names he still could point out people he had dealt with. Of coarse we will never be able to prove this unless someone decides to spill the beans, which I can’t see happening. But I see it as a strong possibility, more so that they just didn’t prosecute this guy because Frueh was gay. How do you explain that to the family and I have never seen where they complained. Again, I can see the police or D.A.’s office explaining to the family that Robert Frueh was involved in some questionable behavior and instead of having all that come out in court and gain sympathy for the killer and maybe a totally walk free card, we can do something else and sweep this under the rug, that works for multiple parties. HGG this is just my opinion of a scenario I could see playing out.
HGG, we are glad to have you, we need people to be part of the conversation. different viewpoints and thoughts that’s what this debate needs. That’s why this page was created, there are other pages out there but if you write something they disagree with they delete it, that’s not looking for the truth that is just trying to push your own agenda, doesn’t help anything. Have a place where people can say what they want, in doing so we find new information. In the two and a half years since I put up this page I have heard a number of things I never heard in the twenty plus years I had been following this case prior.
And I wouldn’t say you are on the fringe, there are many people that don’t believe Spence and the Melendez brothers were guilty and if that’s the case a case needs to be made against another party and that’s the rub. As I said before and I know you believe this also that Robert Frueh was not involved but because there are so many questions that remain names that came up back then have to be looked at again, even if it is only to discount that person. Anyway you look at it the original investigation was less than stellar, a lot of loose ends that should have been tied up a long time ago. Here is the way I see it Spence and company were guilty, the case against Spence was pretty strong. There wasn’t any physical evidence that could tie him to the crime but still at this time there isn’t any physical evidence that ties anyone to the crime. People can question this piece of evidence or that piece of evidence but for all the evidence they mention there is just as much they don’t mention that might tell a different story. Just an example, I know some one at one time asked me about the towel found on the front seat of Clifford Oliver’s car on the morning of July 14th, which is a good question but what about the two hairbrushes also found on his front seat that morning. Yes they could have just been his wife’s but were they ever checked? So there’s tons of stuff out there. Kenneth Franks and probably both Jill and Raylene knew a lot of people and had drug dealings with a lot of people but those two things are a huge leap to three kids being brutally raped and murdered. And that’s the thing, we can look at people like Robert Frueh or even a Terry “Tab” Harper that Kenneth knew and probably had some drug dealings with but where’s the trigger that caused this horrendous mayhem, that has never been found in connection with any of the other names we hear, Frueh, Harper, James Russell Bishop, the father, it’s just not there. There is the chance of the unknown, that unknown assailant we have never heard about but I doubt this because there are just to many signs that at least one of the victims knew the killers. Like it or not we get this with David Spence and Muneer Deeb.
Spence was a drinker and druggie, he hung out at the lake, he had met the girls from the Home partying at the lake. When Spence’s girlfriend started working at Deeb’s store David started hanging out there, it was across the street from the Methodist Home and the girls started coming in the store, they knew David and knew he was somebody that could and would buy them beer or could get them weed. Deeb noticed this and started to think hey it was his store he could provide these girls with beer and weed and he could become friends with them and then maybe he could get one to marry him so he could stay in the country, he had been trying this for sometime without any luck. Along comes Gayle Kelly and she uses Deeb, no more than any other girl had, but Deeb starts to pursue her more than the other girls, not counting Kabenna Reed. Problems arise, still some questions on that, Deeb’s finances aren’t doing the best. Deeb turns to David, they try to crash Deeb’s car for insurance, that doesn’t work, Deeb has already had a falling out with Gayle, so why not try to get the insurance money on her. David says he could find some one and whom does David turn to? This is why I think the ride David, Gilbert, Anthony and Christine took to Speegleville Park is so important. Gibert had been in prison and David knew this and knew why, Gilbert had been sent to prison for attempted murder for shooting some one. Hey why couldn’t David and Gilbert do the same thing, take Gayle and Kenneth to some isolated spot and just shoot them. The plan didn’t work out that way but that David and Gilbert went to the area in Speegleville Park where the bodies would be discovered tells me either this was their plan or they knew about the area and when the crime went down they thought to go back to that area. There are still questions but where do we even come this close to being able to make a stronger case against anyone? I will keep looking but I don’t think it is there, I think the answers lay with the people that were with David at some point that night; Clifford Oliver, John Arnett Jr., Todd Childers, Cal Frazier and even Christine Juhl,. Again just my opinion.
HGG. last week we were talking about Kenneth Franks owing people money and the amount. All I could find at the time is what Kenneth Adkisson said. I read the police reports again this weekend and I did find another story. July 28th a Joe Quintanilla informs police he was talking to a friend, who he didn’t want to name, and this friend told him that a Frank from Bellmead and 4 other subjects had committed the murders. Frank and his four associates went to Koehne Park to collect the more than $3000 that Kenneth owed them over dope. Frank drove Kenneth and the two girls to Speegleville Park. Frank and Kenneth got into a fight, during this struggle Frank pulled out a knife and stabbed Kenneth to death. Frank’s 4 associates took the girls and raped and killed them. That was his story, I would point out a couple big problems with this story, at best it’s third hand and Joe won’t even give the police the name of the friend that told him this story and when Kenneth’s body was discovered there were no signs of a struggle which you would expect if he had gotten into a fight. And this story wouldn’t explain the shallow stab wounds both Jill and Kenneth had that were inflicted to cause pain, not to kill.
I need to make a couple corrections on a couple things I posted earlier, I know I always complain when people put things out there that aren’t true, I know it happens there is just so much information it’s easy to get it confused, so it’s not putting something out there that you have confused it’s not correcting it once you have found it is not true and letting it remain out there so others take it as the truth. Practice what we preach.
Last week I posted Clarence Pierce told the police he stopped to help two guys in a blue Datsun but did not state if it was a pick-up. He did know the model of the Datsun which he stated was a b210 which is not a pick-up.
I also posted Raylene cashed a check for about $200 at the Piggly Wiggly. In the report the cashier, Joyce Breiten, remembered both girls cashing checks and that Raylene did cash a payroll check but she could not recall the amount.
There were probably others but that’s all I can think of at the moment, if some one sees something they feel is not accurate please let me know so it can be corrected.
Mrs. Thompson last week you mentioned about the physic saying something about a nail in a big tree, well there is something in the reports about a big tree with a nail or two nails in it. As usual with this case there is something missing, apparently Officer or Detective Melissa Sims got some information from the Franks family that they knew a subject that camped out at Speegleville Park in the area the kids bodies were discovered and that this person did some kind of Indian rituals, that’s how it’s written. Sims went and checked this out and found this tree and there was all kind of stuff there, the problem; we don’t see her report. But she did call this in and asked for someone to come out and take pictures. This is what we get to see; Special Investigator King goes to the scene and takes pictures and he list the pictures he takes, he took 26 pictures. Picture #3 he list as shoe hanging in tree; #4 nail and markings next to shoe; #5 second nail on tree. There were a few things I thought were interesting in the list; #8 holes in the tree and #9 close ups of holes in the tree. There was rope, wire, a coat hanger and green shoe strings hanging in the tree. There was writing on the tree Kings states it looks like chalk, it was the usual vulgar graffiti , there were two things written on the tree, not quoting but one said for a good time and gave an address but King doesn’t write the address. There were a few other items, panties with the crotch tore out, a bottle of sun tan lotion, a handkerchief, a wash cloth, a lighter and a pair of glasses. The glasses stood out because I had just read the report when Salinas talked to Mr. Rice and Mr. Rice says Raylene usually wore contact lenses but she had just gotten a new pair of glasses that hadn’t been found. His description didn’t really match the glasses that were found. He said the glasses Raylene had just bought had tinted thick lenses, the glasses found by this tree had clear lenses. Then pictures 23 and 24: stained leaves at the base of the tree. The only thing King says about this is in his summary he list the items he is collecting and putting in bags to take back to the station, he says leaves and sticks with some substances splattered on them. Kings states when he arrived he wasn’t sure where the bodies were discovered so it was only his estimate that it was approximately 50 yards where the bodies were discovered. Since we don’t have Sims report this is all we get.
Vero can’t do that without the facts, that’s what Dannen tried to do, he thought he had it all figured out. Then he made promises to people that he couldn’t keep, got their hopes up and then couldn’t prove his theory and now he’s hiding out in Mexico. I don’t want to live in Mexico and I can’t play the piano.
Bkl67. On subject of the girls cashing their checks~~~~there was a questionable $$ amount put into Jill’s account at the Methodist Home.
Noone was ever able to say where it came from. I am thinking it was in the $200.00 range. Do you recall this?
I remember we talked about this before, I had asked about when the Waco police talked to Jill’s mother she told them that Jill’s checkbook wasn’t matching up and I asked you if that was ever figured out. I can find our old conversation. And there was the check that Jill supposedly cashed at Safeway that was for about $200, the manager personally knew Jill’s mother and Jill and was positive that it was Jill that came in and cashed the check. No one seemed to know where that check came from.
Mrs. Thompson I wonder, could Jill have been saving up her checks from Fort Fisher while she was still at the Methodist Home? She probably didn’t need much money at that time, try to save as much as possible for when she returned home?
Brian, the idea that Jill was trying to save $$ is a possibility, however it would be out of character for her. She, like most 17 year old girls, wasn’t ‘good’ at saving.
You are correct, we have discussed this earlier. I do recall it now. Thanks for jogging my memory.
Now the subject of the physic/tree :
Do you know if this story would have been public knowledge in early ’83 ?
Mrs. Thompson I can’t be 100% positive but I really doubt if this would have been public information at that time. But we don’t know the whole story, we don’t have Sims report, King states Sims had gotten this information for the Franks family, whom did this consist of, where and how did they hear about it and how many other people could they have told about this, too many variables to be certain of anything.
I received more files on Robert Frueh from the Waco Police, these records are totally unreadable, if anyone has any idea what I can do about that please let me know. I can’t say what these reports say I do see something about an 11 year old boy, mention of a towel and some blood somewhere, I see Russ Hunt’s name and apparently in 1989 Frueh had his car and phone stolen, I’m just picking out words I can’t make out any sentences.
Bkl67. I am not understanding why they send out illegible reports. What good is being able to get public info if it can’t be read ?
Were charges actually filed against Frueh in the case of the 11 year old boy, or can you tell?
HGG, it’s my understanding they didn’t keep the original records. The old records, I was told anything before 2004 were put on micro film and the original records were discarded. I talked to a couple people that worked in the records department and one person actually went to the police station and talked to Sargent Price, they really tried to track down this information for me. They had to send my request to the city attorney to see what could be released and I was told I was given everything they had in reference to Robert Frueh, with redactions. There was one thing I couldn’t get any information on. Back in November 1982 they pulled a photo of Robert Frueh from a file to show Deanna Storts. That would tell me the Waco Police had a file on Mr. Frueh at that time so he must have been arrested by the Waco PD prior to that time, my thinking was it was probably a mugshot so I asked about this but nothing could be found. Here is the response I got, well we talked on the phone first and then I got this response;
Chris Charanza
Police Department
On 6/18/2018 3:14:59 PM, City of Waco City Secretary’s Office wrote:
Brian
After speaking with Sgt. Price I was advised that if the photograph would’ve been related to something involving another case it would’ve had the case number on it. Sgt. Price thinks that it might have either been an arrest number or a booking number and unfortunately I do not have a way to look up either of those from that time period. As per our conversation I will be closing this request out as no responsive records.
Thank You
Chris Charanza
Open Records
Waco Police Department
Mrs. Thompson, I can’t see if Robert Frueh was charged with anything or even if he was a suspect for something or a victim, literally all I can see are a few words here and there. When I talked to the person from Waco’s record department he told me old files like this were transferred to microfilm and then they make copies from the microfilm. hence the poor quality. I’ve asked is there another way I can view the records, waiting for a reply. Here are the files they sent me, maybe you can make more out of it than I have been able to do.
Mrs. Thompson, you know my computer skills are minimal and that’s being very kind to myself but as they sat ignorance is bliss. I was just trying to copy the records and when I shaded over them they became legible, I still can’t copy them for some reason but I can read most of it. Again if anyone could help me, I need all I can get. I will just give an overview for now, I can type out the whole report but I type about as fast as a sloth stuck in molasses.
First I would point out the records I received deal with a couple incidents that took place in 1989, well after the Lake Waco Murders, I didn’t receive any records dealing with the Lake Waco Murders or anything that might have happened prior. So I still don’t know why the Waco Police already had a file on Robert Frueh when they pulled his photo to ask Deanna Storts if this was the man she saw. I will send another request to see if I can get anything on that.
The first incident occurred in March 1989,the police received a call about a possible disturbance or suspicious activity occurring at 2934 Savannah Court. A cleaning crew had seen a large quantity of blood on the driveway and walkway leading up to the apartment. Dispatch informed the officers that the police had been called to that residence the day before, March 11, 1989, however no report was made for that incident. I have to add in all these reports, there are 8 pages, there is a reporting officer and then the report is typed up by another person, I guess the Waco Police learned their mistake with the terrible reports their officers typed during the Lake Waco Murders investigation and they decided to find other people to type their reports for them, on this report the reporting officer was Gissel and it was typed by Edwards. As the two responding officers Anderson and Gissel approach they notice the front door and garage door are wide open and cleaning hoses from the cleaning van into the residence, the cleaning crew was already cleaning up the blood. The officers note a large quantity of blood leading from the street up the driveway by a red Cadillac convertible that was parked in the garage, to the left of the car was a trail of blood with footprints in it that led into the apartment. The officers got permission to enter the apartment to further investigate by the lady in charge of the cleaning crew. What appeared to be blood could be seen on carpet as officers entered apartment, this trailed to the stairway as they entered the living room, officers state they can see the carpet had already been shampooed and were told by cleaning crew that they had just finished the downstairs. Officers go up stairway, blood is present in the stairway and leads to a bedroom, Officers enter the room the blood trail goes to the bed, then from the bed to a closet, there is a large TV next to the closet, officers open closet and find a VCR and Cablevision box on top shelf. Blood is noted on VCR on the power and eject button, officer states it appears whoever was bleeding it looked to officer that that person stood there for a few seconds doing some type of work. From the closet the blood trail led to a coffee table where there was another large quantity of blood seen by the telephone, then the trail exited the room, paused momentarily by another closet which the officers found to be locked, there was blood on the door knob. Officers jimmy open the door with a buck knife, dry blood was found on the inside knob. This was a small closet about 2 and 1/2 feet in length, officers found two bags of what appeared to be marijuana and two video tapes, the two tapes had dried blood on them. Title of one tape was “Stud Hunter”, other tape did not have any identification on it. Officer states it looks as if the victim had shut and locked the door after victim had been stabbed or cut, the door could be locked from inside. There was also a large towel hanging in the closet, the officer pulls it down and finds several video tapes on a shelf that was behind the towel.
The officer explains why it was decided to break into this closet, the day before a 11 year old boy from the area had gone missing officers thought the incidents could be related.This 11 year old’s name is given in this report, I would say that would add more questions why the name of the guy that killed Frueh was redacted in that report, doesn’t look like it was because he was a minor. Anyway officers decide to look at the video tape they found that had dried blood on it but didn’t have any identification on it to see if possibly the incident that had occurred was filmed, they found that the tape was just another pornographic film. Officer does not take tapes as evidence because he doesn’t feel they are connected to the incident. He does take several photos. There is somethings missing at this point, report states; “Officer Anderson took control of the —————— which I believe to be————-“. It is stated earlier in the report that Anderson took control of the two bags that they believed to be marijuana, so I don’t know why it is not visible or redacted here. That is the report of the original responding officers, that was 2 of the 8 pages sent to me. For some reason the reports were not sent to me in chronological order, so I will be skipping page 3 and move to page 4.
This is Officer Anderson’s report of the same events described on the previous report I just summarized. Anderson is the reporting officer and the report was typed by Bailey. In this report Anderson states as he and Gissel were checking the upstairs where the assault occurred officer Beatty arrived and told them that he had talked to Robert Frueh at the Hillcrest Hospital. Frueh told Beatty that he(Frueh) had picked up a white male about 16 years of age around the Lake Air Mall on Wooded Acres. Just thought I would add James “Blinky” Lucas lived on Wooded Acres. Mr. Frueh took this subject to his home and once at his residence the white male he had picked up assaulted him by cutting him on the right side of the neck. Frueh would not tell Beatty why he took this subject to his apartment and would not provide anymore information. With Frueh not giving anymore information and that he was being somewhat uncooperative the officers believed there was more to the story than Mr. Frueh was telling them.
Anderson states Beatty told them about the missing 11 year old boy. That the upstairs closet was the only locked door in the appointment and it was obvious this door had been opened after the assault because there was blood all over the door and handle and because of the large amount of blood present at the scene the officers felt that it was possible that someone other than Mr. Frueh had been cut and that there could be a body in the closet and that was the reason they broke into the closet. This report ends with Anderson repeating the same thing Gissel stated in the prior report about finding two bags with what they believed to be marijuana and that Anderson tagged these bags and they were placed in the city property room drug box. So at this point it looks like Gissel, Anderson and Beatty all agree, there was an assault, Mr. Frueh was the victim but there could be some questionable circumstances that Mr. Frueh would talk about. Now enters one of my favorite officers from the Waco Police department and we know how this investigation will end.
The next report doesn’t really tell us much, it is just one small paragraph but it does bring in Detect Ramon Salinas into the case, we all know I’m a big fan of some of Salinas’ earlier work and we more of the same here but at least we do have some one else typing his reports; Bailey, I take it that this is the same Bailey that typed up Anderson’s report, small steps. All this report states is after further reviewing this case Robert Frueh was being charged, The case this report details is an aggravated assault but ti doesn’t say what Robert Frueh is being charged with, it does say ——– was filed against Robert Frueh and the ———— was taken from the property room and tagged and will be held as evidence until needed in this case. Since the ——- was in Mr. Frueh’s bedroom closet and it seems had control and he was charged with —————.. Detective Salinas got the warrant Mr. Frueh. That’s all on this report, the date on this report was 4/3/89 so about two weeks after the initial reports. Looks like this case is going in the right direction but don’t forget who we are talking about and pigs still don’t fly.
The next report is dated 4/25/89, reporting officer: Salinas, typed by: Frayer. Report states after Frueh was released from hospital Salinas made contact with him, Frueh had nothing to say and told Salinas if he needed he could contact his (Frueh’s) attorney Russ Hunt. Salinas contacted Hunt and Hunt informed Salinas that he still was trying to figure out what had happened and that he had obtained some of the photos from the cleaning crew that Salinas had requested earlier, Hunt also informed Salinas that per his clients wishes they did not wish to pursue the matter with police action. Salinas got statement from the ambulance attendants. And then Salinas states since they don’t know who cut Frueh and Frueh is being a hostile witness and they probably will never know who this person was the case is suspended. Yep, just like the Lake Waco Murders, what, did Salinas think suspending cases gave him job security? Having all these unsolved cases they couldn’t fire him no matter how much he sucked as a detective. For some reason I received two copies of this report.
The last two reports deal with a cellular phone handset that was stolen out of Robert Frueh’s car. The first report states the Frueh had called the police to report this thief on !1/30/89. There was no sign of force entry into the vehicle and Frueh stated the vehicle was locked, there was no evidence and there weren’t any suspects, the serial number of the headset was put in the computer system. case suspend, well this time it wasn’t Salinas. The second report states on 12/11 the stolen handset was recovered, Mr. Frueh was contacted and told where his property was and at that time Mr. Frueh filed and signed a complaint to prosecute, the handset was tagged and placed in the property room. That’s the end of the reports I received
Hi Brian, If you look closely at pg 4, you can see that the age of the man Robert picked up is listed as 35, not 16–the number is a bit blurred, so could be 25 or 75 (I’m thinking not), but not 16. Of course this is what Robert told police–so it may not be true–but the report does not list the age as 16…unless I’m missing something??? And I may be.
OK with all that there are a few more questions. I will start with; this happened after the Lake Waco Murders, I feel pretty safe stating the police were at least aware of the behavior Robert Frueh was rumored to participate in by the time of these incidents but we still don’t know what they knew when his name came up during their investigation into the Lake Waco Murders, I haven’t been able to get those records but it does seem strange to me that whatever Frueh was into it apparently was turning violent at least early in 1989 and he would be killed only two years later, the police couldn’t have done more about this and if that was the state of affairs in 1989 could the same be said of 1982?
I didn’t mention the name of the 11 year old missing boy before but I wonder has anyone heard about this before or know the fate of this boy was he ever found? His name was either Mixa or Mika Hill and he went missing on March 11, 1989, the report says he was from the west Waco area, I don’t know what area of Waco is considered west Waco, I hope one of our readers from Waco can educate me on this. I guess Savannah Court would be considered west Waco?
Hi Brian–just getting back on and trying to catch up! Fascinating stuff and fyi…having known Robert, I would say he was not a violent person. But hey, I’m working through my experience of him and my own filter. I hope to get to Waco in the next few weeks to talk to WPD and try to get info on Robert.
Another teenage boy and now a 11 year old boy the crap around Robert Frueh is getting deeper and thicker. Brian do you think Robert Frueh had anything to do with the 11 year old boy?
Vero I don’t know anything about this missing 11 year old boy, it’s the first I’ve ever heard about it. But I don’t want to get into this thing where we start to blame Mr. Frueh for something based purely on some of his other documented incidents. There is no doubt Robert Frueh was involved in some extremely inappropriate behavior and criminal behavior at that but that doesn’t necessarily connect him to the Lake Waco Murders. To be fair from the reports I have read Robert Frueh was the victim of violent reactions, reactions brought on because of his own inappropriate behavior but still he’s the one getting beat up and stabbed. At this point I would question if Robert Frueh was a violent person? He was a sexual predator but it also looks like he might have targeted victims he thought he could control physically and even at that it doesn’t look like that was really working out for him.. Hey I don’t want to sound like I’m offering unworthy sympathy for Robert Frueh but we have to be honest in our evaluation of his actions and the person behind those actions.
CC I do respect police officers very much but at some point you have to question how this investigation was run and Ramon Salinas was behind most of it. I admit he had superiors whose job it was to keep things straight so they also deserve some blame bit it’s Salinas’ name that’s all over it. A few examples.
. The information Lisa Kader gave on July 19th that Deeb had killed Kenneth because of Gayle Kelly was never checked out or followed up.
Gene Deal, David Spence’s parole officer, called and talked to Salinas and told him that David might have information about the murders, again Salinas ignored this and didn’t bother to check this out.
Salinas decided to believe Rusty Escott over Rebecca DeMarias. After weeks of running down this rumor started by Rusty and being told Rusty couldn’t be trusted and bringing in Rusty where he admitted he lied did Salinas finally realize he had been wrong.
In an investigation you try to talk to people that are close to the victims, this would include roommates, Salinas didn’t even find out who was Jill’s roommate until November.
How many times in the reports do we see the officers state they have been unable to make contact with this person or that person, that’s understandable is some cases but what about with the girls that lived at the Methodist Home. Two that come to mind right off were Tandra Samples that was a close friend to Jill and Laura Madderax supposedly the last girl Kenneth dated while he was at the Home. All that had to be done to find these girls was to call the Home and tell whomever that they wanted to talk to this girl or that girl but they didn’t, all we get is we haven’t been able to make contact. When the San Diego police called to ask for information on James Russell Bishop, Salinas could fly out to California to check out this guy even though there was nothing at all that connected him to this case but he couldn’t check out information and leads he was getting in Waco that were making connections or couldn’t pick up the phone and call someone to contact or talk to them. CC at some point it gets ridiculous.
Bkl67. Must put in my 2 cents here. Is it a Texas thing when City law enforcement, District Attorney Office, and Sheriff ‘s Office battle each other rather than working together to keep a case (triple murders) open and solving the crime?? Is it always a game of (who is the hero rather than working together to solve the crime. I was lied to by law enforcement and by “persons of interest ” .
I did not know who to believe, thus, a search for the truth began for me many years ago.
Mrs. Thompson sorry it has taken awhile to reply to you on this, been trying to work on some other things, but here is my opinion on this.
I don’t think it is just a Texas thing, look at the Jonbenet Ramsey case, the D.A.’s office and police department disagreed greatly in that case and see how that ended. More recently we had the Trayvon Martin case, again the D.A.’s office and local law enforcement disagreed and police officers got on the stand and destroyed the D.A.’s case. Much like what happened in the Juanita White case when 15 or 16 officers opposed the D.A.’s story. So I don’t think it is just a Texas thing and again just my opinion, there is something else that stands out in the Lake Waco Murders case. I can understand officers not agreeing or even getting along, which surely looks to be the case here but to have the amount of animosity between officers in a department, enough so to cause officers to intentionally work against each other I just can’t understand, that’s why there is a chain of command and why police officers have superiors.
I know I have said this before but if you took the police reports from the investigation of the Lake Waco Murders from the beginning of the investigation until it was suspended on September 3rd, which was less than two months and gave it to any number of detectives from anywhere or cold case detectives that didn’t know anything about the case and asked them to review the case and ask them if there was anything they think they could have done and if so what would it have been, the unanimous response would have been they would have gone back and followed up or checked out information the original detectives had failed to do. That’s exactly what Truman Simons and Dennis Baier did. I’m not saying police work is easy but this wasn’t rocket science. And once Simons and Baier came up with a strong lead, one that was already in the reports if the original investigators had decided to check out, why wasn’t there more cooperation? Instead it was more like we want to prove you wrong, again that’s why there are superiors, so a lot of the blame has to placed on Lt. Horton he was the ranking officer. And don’t forget it was Horton that allowed the case to be suspended without taking it up with his superiors, Captain January and Chief Scott and I think that was part of the problem when Simons decided to go over Horton’s head and went to the Chief. Anyway it became an inhospitable work environment, one not inducive to closing cases. Mrs. Thompson unfortunately I think particularly in this case there was a weak link in the chain of command; Lt. Horton. There are a couple other things we can point to that would further argue this. One you know very well.
You cannot blame officers for not pursuing information they never received and we have this in this case. As with many high profile cases or cases that are not easily solved there is always a lot of white noise, people calling in with info, leads, rumors and lies. It was no different with this case, in fact the volume was so great that a crime stoppers hot line was set up to help with all the calls. Anytime you add another line and layer of communication the better the chances information can get lost and there was a problem with this early on with the Lake Waco Murders case. We know this because in the reports we read the officers working the case held a meeting on the morning of Monday July 19th, 5 days after the murders. The purpose of this meeting was to share information and to make sure the information that had come in at that time was being properly disseminated to the people that needed it, that would show they were aware of that problem by then and were trying to address it, this would have been the responsibility of the ranking officer; Lt. Horton and it also would have been his responsibility to make sure this problem didn’t persist but we see it did. Mrs. Thompson you know better than anyone the story of Deanna Storts, she called a few days after the murders, Sargent Holstein called her back but Deanna didn’t have the information she was told she needed so this return call from Holstein didn’t do much. A couple weeks later, which would have been late July, Deanna called backed but then she didn’t hear from the Waco Police until November. Salinas states he didn’t know about the first call and apparently he didn’t know or he decided out to check out the second call before the case was suspended, obviously the problem of sharing information still persisted, again this falls into the lap of Lt. Horton.
The other time I see where Lt. Horton failed to do at least the proper thing was with his interview with Clifford Oliver a few days after the murders. Horton never mentions this in his report, the only way we hear about it is during the Grand Jury and since then I have asked Clifford about it, he changed his story a couple times. Even if Clifford didn’t tell Horton anything he (Horton) believed had any connection to the murders or Clifford was being uncooperative he should have put in his report that he had interviewed Clifford and what Clifford did say. That way when Clifford’s name did come up later, when Christine Juhl told Truman Simons if they were looking at David Spence they should also look at Clifford Oliver because they were together that night, the officers could see what Clifford had said or failed to say and found that he was lying which would have been a red flag. Not that red flags prove guilt, Bobby Brem acted like he didn’t know Jill Montgomery when he was first questioned by the police but they found out not only did Bobby know her but Jill had stayed at his house when she ran away and Bobby had wanted to date her, huge red flag but in the end it didn’t mean anything. Horton should have put his interview with Clifford Oliver in his report. Mrs. Thompson when I look at this case I see a trickle down effect; Horton’s less than impressive leadership trickled down to Detective Salinas being overwhelmed with such a complex case trickled down to Nicoletti who appears to have been promoted to detective during the investigation, eager and hard working but hadn’t picked up the experience, intuition and nuances of a veteran detective and didn’t get much guidance from those around and above him. People may hate Truman Simons but he did keep the case open when all others had given up and he should be given credit for that, there are literally thousands of cases across the country that were suspended and they sit on selves unsolved.
Vero it is all about getting the information out there and keeping it in the public eye and mind. Take the Tab Harper story and many people still believe it. You can still find any number of articles or site that will state that Tab Harper was seen by anywhere from 6 to dozens of people at Koehne Park the evening of July 13, 1982. This is just not true, people keep repeating it and it becomes the perception that it is true, perception is stronger than truth. Most people aren’t going to take the time and try to read all the police reports, they are going to read an article or two some one else has written and take it as the truth. And see where that gets us even to this day. Anyone can bend the facts or just tell lies and it can become the truth to the masses.
Now with Clifford Oliver there is very little out there about him, I would say other than this site you don’t read much about Clifford Oliver, I would wager other than the people that read this page very few people have heard about Josie Scionti or know her story. If we could change the perception, people would start to ask different questions. And with Clifford Oliver we wouldn’t have to bend the facts, I’m not saying we know the exact facts but there is clearly enough to question. Stories don’t match or add up, some one is mixed up or lying. And it’s not just Clifford Oliver, it’s anybody that was with him; John Arnett Jr., Todd Childers, Cal Frazier, maybe the Gutierrez brothers, Josie Scionti, her sister Diana and her ex-husband Harold Windham. You put out their stories, question their stories you are going to come out with a completely different view on things. You are going to hear things you never heard during the trials, read things you never saw in the reports, now if we could only get that information to more people it would spread and gain more attention. That’s what happened with Tab Harper, there were people out there pushing that story the more it spread the more people believed it was true. We could change that with the story of Clifford Oliver and friends.
Last week I received the response from Waco for a few of my request. With my request on Robert Frueh there was some legal issue, when I called to ask about this I was told maybe I should narrow the scope of my request, so I have sent a new request hopefully I will get better results with the new request. I shared the records I did get but they were totally unreadable, so I write asking if it was possible to get better copies. I haven’t gotten a response on this. One thing I did get last week was an explanation why Texas couldn’t release some of the information I asked for, unlike the records they sent me this was very clear, I can post that just so people can understand Texas law regarding freedom of information.
Also I sent request for more information on James Lucas and Ralph Finstad but I didn’t have much to go on, I didn’t have their dates of birth, I tried just using their addresses of the time. Waco responded they didn’t have any records on Lucas and Finstad at these addresses, funny thing is they had already sent me the records regarding the Payne brothers that gave these addresses and also Lucas and Finstad are in the Lake Waco reports. Maybe Waco is getting tired of all my request, imagine that some one getting tired of all the questions I ask. So I’m still working on that, I’m going to try to go by Lucas’ vehicle registration for the Datsun, see if I can track down any information that way.
I doubt if this has anything to do with the Lake Waco Murders and I don’t like to get to far off track, each case has to stand on it’s own merits but when I read about the missing boy last week I wondered what happened with that case, so I sent a request seeing what I could get on that case.
Found birth and Death of Ralph Finstad; birth 1/30/32 – death 5/13/01, now that I have his DOB I can get some information.
Things are a little more difficult with James Lucas, that is a very popular name, especially in Texas. Did find one that was very troubling but actually his name was Darvin James Lucas, he was arrested in 1995 for sexually abusing his three kids. His 11 year old son had sexually abused a 3 year old. The abuse occurred in Kingsland, Burnet County. His appeal was held in Waco, that’s how I came across it. His birth date is 1/23/61 which would have made him 21 back in 82, if this is the James Lucas I’m looking for he would be Ralph Finstad’s nephew, Finstad would have been 50 in 82. Long shot but I’m checking it out.
Well I have hit a brick wall on getting anymore records from the Waco Police, I have been told they have given me everything they have on Robert Frueh and they don’t have anything in the Waco Police records on James Lucas and Ralph Finstad for the years I asked and I can’t ask for just a criminal history I have to be more specific nor are there any records on a missing person Mika or Mixa Hill. There could be any number of reasons for this; old records that were purged, some one asked to have the records expunged either way I not getting anywhere with it and doesn’t look like I can. So of coarse we are left with questions. I guess it’s time to get back on the trail of Clifford Oliver and company, I still believe that’s the best path to the truth.
bkl167–you have done an amazing amount of digging. I am going to follow up if possible with people who might know additional info and will let you know what I learn.
HGG, if I’m not mistaken you knew Robert Frueh before his time in Waco or at least before the stories we hear about, I thought if you knew him there might be a chance you would have known his family and you might be able to talk to them, which you have already done. The report mentions his brother, seems he might have handled some of Robert’s affairs after his passing. I would think if anyone would know the reason Robert’s homicide wasn’t prosecuted he would know, I can’t see the family, no matter the circumstances, just letting that go without a good explanation and if they didn’t get one why not stir things up? I could be wrong but as you have said you have tried. I apologize for pushing.
Vero, Unfortunately no. I keep trying to talk to people and find information but we have to keep in mind I’m trying to get information from people that have lived with these secrets or lies, depending on how you want to look at it, for 36 years and have become comfortable with it. Stirring things up answering my questions probably doesn’t look like a promising proposition. Hey it really doesn’t matter what any of us do, without any concrete information or evidence we don’t have anything and “they” know this as long as they don’t talk and give it up there is little to nothing that can be done against them. What we need is for some one to have a crisis of conscience and see the value in the truth.
If I could do one thing I would collect DNA from 9 people, Clifford Oliver, Todd Childers, Cal Frazier, John Arnett Jr., Josie Scionti, Diana Scionti, Harold Windham, James Gutierrez and Terry Gutierrez.
Vero, there is some question about the whereabouts of the Gutierrez brothers the night of the murders. they were regulars at Pinocchio’s, they might have had a conflict with Kenneth Franks over their car, that car disappeared, They were involved with Clifford Oliver in the insurance scam and Terry took off to California with Clifford. I can’t put them with Clifford and his friends that night, apparently they never went to Pinocchio’s that night as Clifford testifies that’s where he met up with Cal, Todd and John but I have never seen where anybody as stated they saw those guys there that night either. Hey it could be a long shot but I just wouldn’t discount it, there were longer stretches with others that had their DNA collected.
On Josie, she knew where the murders occurred, she stated Clifford Oliver told her this but again you can’t discount maybe the reason she knew where the murders occurred was because she was there and called the crime stoppers in attempt to draw attention to others and clear her name. And she had her sister and brother in-law to support her story. Her brother in-law; Harold Windham is another shady character, I think he’s still sitting in prison now.
Vero, when you’re investigating a case, you start with the people closest to the victims and work outward, it’s the same thing with DNA evidence, you start with a suspect or a pool of suspects if you don’t get a hit with any of those you expand your pool. Now you just can’t go after everybody you have to have cause but I think with the 9 people I mentioned there is reasonable cause. I would say we just need hair samples. I know there is some talk about the fingernail clippings but I would doubt getting any results on those. For one this is something the M.E. could have determined, that is if skin was under the fingernails. If you read her testimony she repeats the phrase “I didn’t make note of that”, that means she didn’t see or notice something, that she doesn’t make note of seeing skin under the nails would lead me to think she didn’t detect any, yes she could have missed it, either other substance was under the nails or it was such a small amount it couldn’t be seen. Secondly, how long does it take for skin particles to decay to dust, 36 years sounds like a very long time to me.
And we also have to keep in mind there is still a major problem even with the hairs found in the bindings, we still can’t undisputedly determine the origin of the shoestrings and towels that were used as bindings. Without that the pool of possibilities is countless, my pool of 9 could just as well be 900 or 9,000 and with that a name we have never heard.
During the investigation one of the employees at Pinocchio’s stated Kenneth was suppose to buy the brothers’ car but apparently there was some fall out. When Mr. Franks was asked about this he stated he didn’t know anything about Kenneth buying a car but a car had been brought to their home and he had taken video of the car, I don’t know if the police ever saw this video, so I really don’t know if it was the Gutierrez brothers’ car, Mr. Franks said the boy that brought the car over to the house was a white boynot Hispanic, so I don’t know. When the police asked James about this car, Terry had already gone to California with Clifford, James told the police the car had been wrecked and the brothers got rid of it. The reporting officer, I will have to check on what officer it was, wrote in his report he could never find any report of the car being in an accident, so whom really knows what happened. I would point out the Gutierrez brothers did have access to a truck at the time and this was the vehicle they were using around the end of July, if i’m not mistaken it was a brown truck with a gold or orange stripe. For those interested in car fibers I wonder what the color combination would be for the interior of that truck?
blk167 Regarding Robert’s family no apologies necessary. BTW—His gravestone has a quote from the New Testament—“No greater love has a man than this, that he lays down his life for a friend.”
stephiessite, my first thought is if you go down rabbit holes dug by Fred Dannen all you find are dead ends and you will probably find yourself just like Dannen, if you’re lucky you find a beach somewhere in Mexico where you can play your harmonica to collect pesos so you can afford a couple tacos and tequilas at the end of the day. To be fair for those that believe there is a drug connection to the murders, which I agree with to to some extent, we should put things in proper context.
The first time one of the Kinder brothers popped up on the radar, at least for those interested and looking for some connection with the Lake Waco Murders, was a bar fight, well it actually occurred in the parking lot on the night of November 14, 1984. This altercation took place outside the Okey Dokey Nite Club, a familiar venue in Waco for those following the case. The Okey Dokey was running a special, like the endless mug or endless pitcher, you pay a cover fee and can drink beer all night, surely to draw all types and probably ended up being the demise of the Okey Dokey. On this night a group of young college friends decided to indulge in the beerfest, around midnight the party was over and this group of friends made their way to the parking lot where they ran into some of Waco’s more unsavory characters, words were exchanged and this led to a physical altercation. Larry Kinder appears to be the instigator that caused the escalation from words to violence, he threw the first punch and probably the second, third and so on, then some of the patrons stepped in trying to be peace makers and break it up but that just turns it into a melee. In steps John David Wilkins, he brandishes a knife and slashes one of the college kids on the arm and then stabs another one in the back. This kid that has been stabbed in the back stubbles back into the bar to get help and the police. By the time the police arrive the third kid that was with this group had been stabbed in the chest by Wilkins and lay in the parking lot dead.
Now the Wilkins name will be familiar with anyone following the case, the Wilkins were close associates of Terry “Tab” Harper. There were a few Wilkins, honestly I get them confused, but their names come up in few of Waco’s darkest events, I know one or two of the Wilkins were questioned about the murder of one Patrick Rock, I haven’t be able to find how that case panned out, anyway the Wilkins much like Harper had the reputation of trying to be the local bad asses and the Kinder brothers were part of this group, time to pull out the cliches; “birds of a feather flock together”. Wilkins was charged with murder and got a life sentence, I would imagine Kinder was charged with something since he was the instigator of the whole incident but whatever charge and punishment he received he was back on the street in a few years. Obviously, at this point the only connection to the Lake Waco Murders Kinder has is his association to Tab Harper, very weak to say the least. I have to point out this incident at the Okey Dokey occurred after David Spence’s first trial but before his second trial and Deeb’s first trial that was to begin in January 1985. Spence’s attorney during his first trial was Russ Hunt. Hunt truly believed in David’s innocence and fought hard for David, his case was very weak, his defense was to create doubt try to point to some one else has the culprit, most of us would understand with all that had been written about Terry “Tab” Harper by that time, that Harper would have been the target Hunt would have tried to gone after, he didn’t! The reason why; he knew it was a dead end. Hunt tried to connect Ronnie Breiten and James Russell Bishop to the murders, just trying to connect anybody other than his client but he didn’t try to go after Harper. Hunt would not represent Spence during his second trial and the two attorneys that did represent Spence weren’t as sold on David’s innocence, they were just there to be sure he got a fair trial, one of the attorneys, Vance, asked the judge if he could be removed as David’s attorney but the judge would not allow it. So we really can’t say these attorneys tried to dig deep to prove David was innocent, so the Okey Dokey incident and the connection to Harper some could question wasn’t properly questioned and David would make this an issue during his appeals. Spence tried to argue that the court was in error because his attorneys did not bring up during his trials information about Harper. The appellate court has handed down the same decision time after time, if anyone would like to read the decision I can copy it again, but for now I will just fling it. The court found that the court was not in error in upholding Spence’s constitutional right to a fair trial even though Spence was unhappy with his attorneys for not bringing up Terry “Tab” Harper. The courts found that even if Spence’s attorney did bring up Harper all the State had to do was call one of the detectives to the stand and point out that the reports that Harper was in Koehne Park and that the victims were seen with Harper and getting into his van they found was just a rumor, a rumor that came back to one source, a source that had a reputation for telling stories and not being honest and when this source was finally interrogated he admitted he had lied. That’s all that’s in the record, that’s the only thing that connected Harper to this crime. The defense never brought up anything about Harper during the trials was because they never found anything more than what was in the reports, a far cry from proving David’s innocence and Harper’s guilt. The sad thing today is this was a dead issue until Fred Dannen and Bernadette Feazell/Harry Storm have tried to bend the facts and truth and some how got traction trying to win this case in public opinion that doesn’t matter, usually the public doesn’t take the time to read all the facts, police reports, statements, court findings. So if we take Terry “Tab” Harper out of the equation should we still look into the Kinder brothers? We have to look at another incident that occurred a few years after the altercation at the Okey Dokey.
1990 Larry Kinder, whatever happened to him for his involvement in the deadly affair back in 1984 was back on the street, he and his brother David were caught up in a drug bust, apparently they tried to by some drugs from a undercover police officer, allegedly, and they pled guilty, the brothers were involved in drug trafficking, their drug of choice; Methamphetamine (speed), the same drug of choice as David Wayne Spence, the same drug Anthony Melendez stated he returned to Waco on July 13, 1982 looking for and the same drug Clifford Oliver and Todd Childers would testify they partook when they got up with David Spence that night. And I would add there was a rumor that Jill had mentioned she was meeting a new speed freak connection in Waco. On the other hand the Kinder brothers dealt with the powder form, people usually snort this type. During their appeals the brothers would argue this point, they only were dealing the powder not the liquid form, used by injection, there was an issue about the sentencing guidelines much like there is or was with powder cocaine; snorted and crack cocaine; smoked. David’s preferred use was the liquid injectable and that is what Oliver and Childers testified they did that night. Not saying they never used the powder form but if David was looking for the liquid the Kinder brothers were probably not his regular supplier. David not holding down a steady job and not having money I have no idea whom was his regular dealer. But could the Kinder brothers and Spence have a connection, sure druggies and drug dealers always have a way of finding each other. Could the Kinder brothers had some dealings or planned dealings with the victims of the Lake Waco Murders? That’s a harder question to answer, I have never seen any connection but that’s not saying there isn’t one, the Kinder brothers would match the idea of some one or some drug dealers that were never mentioned during the investigation but the connection has to be found.
patsportal, I really don’t care what Fred Dannen is doing, what he needs to do and should do and would be the right thing to do is admit he was wrong he couldn’t put together his theory he just couldn’t find the facts to support his theory. There is nothing wrong with that and there is no shame in it, it is a very complex case and the passage of time hasn’t made it any easier to untangle the mess that remains. He made promises he couldn’t keep, there are people out there that pinned their hopes on the promises he didn’t and can’t deliver, he needs to hold himself accountable for that, he just can’t run off, go in hiding and not say a word to the people that put so much faith in him. All he has proven to me is he didn’t care about the truth, justice, Spence, the Melendez brothers, the victims, their families nor anyone else connected to this case that still live with the scars of this terrible tragedy, it was all about money for him.
bkl67, you stated Fred Dannen couldn’t prove his theory. You have a theory and I can’t see where you have been able to prove your’s. You make it clear you believe Clifford Oliver and Christine Juhl are involved but all you provide is conjecture and rumors.
patsportal, yes I have a theory I haven’t been able to prove but I’m still working on it, I didn’t run off and go into hiding, I’m still hear searching, asking and taking questions, critiques and criticism. And yes I believe Clifford Oliver and the guys that were with him are involved in some way. I doubt if Christine Juhl was involved.
Careless Whispers or Contrived Convictions 
Vero, I think Robert Frueh should have been looked into more than he was and he should have been questioned definitely long before he was in November 1982, more than two months after the Waco Polce had suspended the case. But there were many people, tips, information that the police didn’t check out or follow up, being more thorough in the early stages of the investigation would have provided more concrete answers later. I still believe David and the Melendez brothers committed this crime and Deeb at least set it all in motion. I’m more convinced in David’s guilt, I think the case against him was pretty strong. It’s a little different with the Melendez brothers, at this point I don’t think by much, but the case was weaker against them and there could be a chance that they got wrapped up in this just because of their association with David,I don’t believe this. Gilbert’s involvement with some of David’s other criminal behavior, e.g. the Darvin Pack incident, didn’t help.
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“The case against David was pretty strong”, I’ve never heard anybody ever say that before. Like you say I have to ask what are you smoking?!?!?
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Very funny Vero. For a circumstantial case,a case with little to no physical evidence, it was pretty strong. I would ask and not just you Vero but anybody, how much would it take you to hear for you to be convinced of some one’s guilt? I will point out a few that stand out against David.
Dorothy Miles was the perfect witness, she couldn’t be impeached and still can’t be today, I don’t know if she is still alive. She had nothing to gain by testifying against David, she was fond of David, David called her mom, you can’t find a better witness. And something I thing that gets overlooked about her testimony was she never tried to force any of her responses, if she didn’t know something she didn’t try to come up with the answer she thought she was suppose to give, this goes along way toward credibility. She didn’t know dates and she try to come up with them when she didn’t. She recalled things by events as most people do, especially when you are talking about events that happened two years or more before she testified, again this makes her believable and relatable to the people in the jury, we all do this, we tie things from our past with events. A witness like this can be the building block that you can build your case around and Mrs. Mlies wasn’t really used that way but still she comes off vert honest and strong.
Next I would point out the two psychiatrist that both interviewed David and came to the same conclusion, David was trying to come up with an insanity plea. David didn’t tell them he didn’t do it; he asked was it possible if he could have done it and forgotten or could he have been so intoxicated he just didn’t remember. And an important aspect about this was when David did this, it was well before he was arrested or charged after the Grand Jury, he was trying to work this angle early on I think February 83. He wanted to psychiatrist and then when that doctor didn’t tell him what he wanted to hear David want to try another doctor. This screams guilt.
Then we have David’s parole officer, Gene Deal. David came to his office and told him he knew something about the murders. At that point Deal didn’t think David was involved but probably knew something about them, he would call the police. It wasn’t until after David’s own mother called that he became David had something to do with the murders
Vero I could get into things that weren’t permitted in court, the defense was successful keeping some damaging testimony out. How much more do you need?
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Trying to make a deal doesn’t prove guilt, sometimes it’s the only choice one can choose from bad options.
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David wasn’t trying to make a deal, he was trying to work an insanity defense and this was about a year before he was indicted by the Grand Jury, it might not prove you are guilty but I would offer it exhibits you have a guilty conscience. By early 1983 he was realizing they were closing in on him, he worried whom was the weak link that would give it up, in the end he was the weak link with all his craziness, the way he carried on in the county lock up. If David wanted to make a deal he should have tried, with that many months gone by since the crimes it was likely the D.A.’s office knew they were going to have to make a deal with some one, Truman Simons would have made a deal with David. I don’t know what Davis was thinking talking like he was without having a deal in hand.
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bkl67 T Simons told me (this was while Simons was a jailer) that he asked Spence if he ever considered the fact that he (Spence) had a “split personality “. This is when Spence started wanting to talk to the doctor. I believe Simon’s put those thoughts in Spence’s head.
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I finally received the police reports on the Robert Frueh homicide, they are very hard to read you will need to blow them up.
https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/29be3dc9-87ad-4872-9347-87c33935db22
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I need to find a better way to share and post this, suggestions greatly appreciated.
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Since these reports are nearly impossible to read, I thought I would post what information I can get from them. First the killer/suspect’s name and other information has been redacted. The first page list the officers involved in working the case, Page two list victim and suspects/arrested (redacted), followed by the narrative. Paraphrasing; 12/21/91 Sheriff’s Office receives call from Jeff Williams, pastor of the First Baptist Church, China Springs. Mr. Williams states he received call from -redacted- and told him he had stabbed a person at 2934 Savannah Court. When officers arrived to the scene found victim dead on floor. Later that day suspect -redacted- was picked up in China Springs at the home of his pastor; Mr. Williams. and taken back to Savannah Court. The next few pages are the reports of the different responding officers and give the same story. Page 4 shows -redacted- was willing to talk and he tells his story.
-Redacted- had known victim approximately one and a half years, met through mutual friends, -redacted- ran drugs for victim, picking them up in different cities in Texas, usually marijuana,, bringing the drugs back to Waco and collecting the money. !2/20/91 -redacted- was contacted by victim to pick up load of marijuana from Houston and picked up marijuana loaded it in his truck and took to Austin, gave load to subject unknown to -redacted- and then he returned to Waco. Around 7:30 p.m. -redacted- arrives at home of victim asking for the money, $5000, he has been promised for this drug deal. Victim makes sexual advances toward -redacted- and he permitted victim to perform oral sex on him. Afterwards -redacted- told victim he needed his money so he could leave, victim tells him it will take a couple days to get the $5000. At this -redacted- becomes angry hits victim in face several times, seeing a knife on a table in the dinning room -redacted- picks up knife and starts slashing victim. Victim falls limb to the floor, his only words, “I am sorry”.
-redacted- leaves, rides around for awhile then goes to his pastor’s home and confesses. That’s the story, -redacted- gave a written confession. The last few pages mostly deal with evidence collected. A few points of interest, on 12/22/91 when officers wanted to talk to Jeff Williams he refused to talk and wouldn’t cooperate. The personal effects found on the victim at time of murder were turned over to his brother Delbert Frueh, this was handled by Sargent Nicoletti, I would guess this is Mike Nicoletti that worked the Lake Waco Murders. The case was cleared by arrest, that means the case is closed, closing officer Detective Sanders of the Waco Police.
So I guess the question is why is the perpetrator’s name redacted and there could be a few reasons, maybe he was a minor at the time. I would throw out there; if the police were looking for an informant, one deeply involved with drug dealing a young killer of a known pervert with a history of dealing drugs would be the perfect candidate.
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I’ve heard this guy was never brought to trial. Why wouldn’t he be? Also talked to a police officer recently who lead me to believe case was never resolved. Weird. Maybe it didn’t matter to the police that a homosexual had been killed?
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HGG that looks right that he was never brought to trial, the report states cleared by arrest not cleared by conviction. A police department will close a case if they believe they have the right culprit even if he is not convicted. The police had a signed confession. A lawyer wanted to represent this guy whomever he was but he didn’t want a lawyer. This looks like a pretty clean cut case. We can only guess why they didn’t prosecute. HGG you knew Mr. Frueh from before correct? Did you know his brother or other family members?
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Thanks for posting this.
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I haven’t gotten into this in awhile but how things have been going recently, I feel it might be a good time to get into the difference between justice and the truth again. People might be confused to think justice and the truth are one in the same but they are not and not just in this case but in all cases. Unfortunately when you don’t get the whole truth you are left with holes in the story, doubts and questions, again this happens with all cases, there are always questions left unanswered, with this case I think there is just such an inordinate amount. I guess some could argue that’s what you should expect with such a complex case, multiple victims, more than likely multiple perpetrators and even more suspects, questionable crime scenes, inaccurate recollections by most of the witnesses interviewed, serious discrepancies and contradictory information from witness to witness, it all adds up to create a morass of confusion. Even with the best of situations, which this case was far from, the truth takes a back seat to justice, it’s the nature of the beast.
Many things are found to be inadmissible in a courtroom, not that they are not true but to properly administer justice the accused have to be treated fairly, justice is the act of passing judgment on specific acts that stand outside the norms of a society. “Specific acts” is the key here, doesn’t matter what other acts the accused may have committed or their character, their associates, friends or families, to be fair the accused can only be judged on the “specific acts” brought before the court and it is in this narrow spectrum that a court may look, much of the truth remains outside the view of this small window, that is justice. Most of us probably think a parent would know their own child better than most other people would, I think that would be common sense, a spouse or significant other would know their partner better than other people that know them. It would figure these people could give us a better insight to some one, a better insight into their life, their thoughts, behaviors, this could give us a better understanding of the truth but this can be inadmissible in a court of law, it calls for conjecture or a witness making a conclusion, both inadmissible. Doesn’t mean it isn’t true it’s just not allowed in court. And this is why the truth or portions of the truth remain outside the purview of justice.
I believe some fair measure of justice was administered in this case, on the other hand the truth is another issue that leaves a lot to be desired. Just look at this case, we can clearly see some things don’t add up, the trials, legal proceedings, appeals went on for more than a decade. Information and testimony was available and presented in court in some instants but not in others, some information came later along the legal trail, some information never came to light in court. To find the truth we need to put all the varying information together, compare it against other information, cull facts from fiction, fill the holes in the story and tie up the loose ends satisfactorily. With the passage of time and the reluctance of some parties to talk now makes this a monumental undertaken but isn’t the truth worth it?
I’ve rambled enough for now, I know how much many of you love it when I ramble but I have a prime example of exactly what I’m saying and I plan to get into it tonight.
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Continuing where I left off last night. To better explain the points I was trying to make I will just take something straight from the records. there are plenty to choose from. I’m picking this one because it’s pretty clear and simple and it is something I have recently talked about. I’m just going to copy the testimony of Christine Juhl verbatim. Not all of this testimony will serve by purpose but for continuity and clarity I am coping the complete exchange. This is Bill Lane representing the State direct examination of Christine Juhl. Actually it was at the end of his direct examination of Christine, he had stated he was done but then he asked the court could he get into one more thing before DeGuerin began his cross examination. The court allowed him to continue and this was the exchange that followed.
Bill Lane: Chris in late June or early July 1982, did you have an occasion to be in the presence
of David Spence, Gilbert Melendez and Tony Melendez?
Christine Juhl: Yes sir.
BL: What was the circumstances surrounding all of you being together.
CJ: We had driven out to Speegleville park to shoot, not I , but the three gentlemen, shoot a
little .22 gun that they were shooting signposts and stop signs and stuff like that.
BL: When do you remember that being, as best as you can recall?
CJ: Summertime, I had my, I was wearing shorts or a pair of bluejeans. I was not allowed to
wear shorts. A short sleeve shirt. I had my hair, which was very, was longer back then. I
had it up in a little white painter’s cap. And I remember it was very hot. We were out at
Speegleville just shooting the gun and it was probably one of the only times David ever
took me anywhere.
BL: What kind of vehicle were in, if you can recall?
CJ: A pickup truck, an older model pickup truck.
BL: Had you ever been to Speegleville Park before?
CJ: Yes, sir.
BL: How did you know where Speegleville Park was?
CJ: Growing up, we went camping quite a bit, my family. We would camp most of the time at
Speegleville Park, down by the old washed out bridge and there was a old fire station
that the kids used to go play at quite a bit.
BL: Be honest, with this jury Chris. Did you ever do anything else while you were growing out
at Speegleville Park?
CJ: Well, we hunted rattlesnakes.
BL: Your family was rattlesnake hunters, weren’t they?
CJ: You could say that.
BL: Was this area well known for rattlesnakes?
CJ: Yes, sir.
BL: How about chiggers? A lot of chiggers out there in this area?
CJ: As I recall, yeah, there were a lot of chiggers.
BL: Let me show you what is before this jury as State’s exhibit number 1 and ask you: Do
you recognize the scene that is depicted in that? Might take you a minute to get oriented.
CJ: Gosh it has been 10 years. This is Lake Waco. There is a bridge that is here.
BL: May it please the Court can she step down here?
Court: Sure.
BL: Chris, step down here to the jury. What I want you to do, Chris, we may have to do it twice
be sure that the folks at the end of the jury can see where you are. Describe generally, I
think now I’ve got it turned upside where you were looking at. You indicated the twin
bridges?
CJ: Yes.
BL: Do you recognize the scene that is generally depicted in this area?
CJ: Yes.
BL: OK, where is Speegleville Park?
CJ: Oh, God, do you want me to remember that from 10 years ago? Came across the bridge,
down, split off.
BL: Let me see if I can do this better. You are indicating part of that park looks like it had been
cut off there?
CJ: Yes, sir.
BL: Chris, why don’t you have a seat for a second while I try to locate this. I don’t know. Let me
try, let me look at this one and see if it helps. Let me hand you what has been marked as
State’s exhibit number 63 and ask you if that area looks familiar to you?
CJ: This could be Speegleville Park.
BL: Okay.
CJ: Because the trees, there’s a lot of trees and you have a dirt road that goes back up
(Indicating). I haven’t been there in 10 years.
BL: When you, well, I tell you what. Let’s try walking this thing through. When you were riding
around with Gilbert Melendez and David Spence and Tony Melendez and they were
shooting up signs, I think you said a .22?
CJ: Yes, signs.
BL: Do you recall going to Speegleville Park?
CJ: We were going into Speegleville Park when they first started shooting the signs. They
would start every little bit and shoot the signs.
BL: Where did y’all eventually go in Speegleville Park? Do you recall?
CJ: We first started off on kind of the main, the main drag. It started paved and then it turned
to gravel. And then a one part on the park the road cuts off like this. This road here goes
up into a clearing. You go through some trees and it goes into a clearing. This point here
(indicating) goes down into a picnic area or campground. I knew that very well because
we camped out there several times as a child. I never drove back then, I didn’t know how
to.
BL: You didn’t drive back then?
CJ: Yeah.
BL: Okay, but you remember going down into the park area?
CJ: Oh, yes, sir.
BL: Do you ever remember getting down in close to the lake, down in the wooded area?
CJ: Where the trees, I mean, where the roads separate, there are trees on this side of you.
The lake is over here (indicating), but you really don’t see the lake through the trees.There
are several big trees and it’s pretty covered. It is a little bit cooler there in the midday.
BL: Dense?
CJ; Very.
BL: area? Okay, did it appear there were like just trails down in through these trees or
DeGuerin: Leading and suggestive.
Court: Sustained.
BL: How did it look to you?
CJ: Deserted, there was nobody there but us.
BL: Describe the road conditions where you were.
CJ: Dirt roads, bumpy roads, not really well maintained. As far as I recall, there were shrubs
and things like that in the middle of the road, where the shrubs kind of grow up a little bit.
It was deserted. There was nobody there.
BL: Okay, this trip that you took out to Speegeville was approximately when? The summer
1982 , in the early summer?
CJ: The early summer of 82.
BL: Of 82, I think that’s all I’ve got. Thanks Chris.
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So, Christine was with David Spence, Anthony Melendez and Gilbert Melendez in the general area the victims bodies were discovered, sometime, in her estimation, in late June or early July 1982, in other words in close proximity to both the time and place of the murders. Alone that is very damaging to the defense but we can add other information to this that no jury ever heard, again not that it was not true, it was just how the case panned out.
This exchange between Bill Lane and Christine took place on December 7, 1992, during Deeb’s re-trial, this would be the only jury to hear this and the one defendant that this information hurt the least was the only one on trial at that time, Muneer Deeb, that’s probably why Lane didn’t think about it until the end, it doesn’t say anything about Deeb but it raises serious questions for the others. So one might ask why wasn’t this brought up in any of the other court proceedings? We have to look at when the information came together.
Deeb’s re-trial took place at the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993 and this is when Christine testified, the only other time Christine testified was during the Grand Jury, she didn’t testify during either of David Spence’s two trials. She testified for the Grand Jury on November 21, 1983 and this trip was never mentioned. One would think the D.A. would have wanted to inform the Grand Jury that three of the guys he was trying to get indicted were in the area the bodies were discovered around the time of the murders. A lot of people went to the park and without being able to narrow it down other than June and July 1982 that leaves a lot of wiggle room just enough to cause reasonable doubt. It was the mode of transportation that became the key and the D.A.’s office wouldn’t know that until the Melendez brothers agreed to cooperate in 1984, after David Spence’s first trial had begun.
It has been well documented the Melendez brothers changed their stories multiple times, in particular Gilbert and what vehicle was used the nights of the murders, at this time I’m not really sure when he finally gave it up, I know it was after David Spence’s first trial had begun but they were able to use this information during David’s second trial. Just think if the D.A.’ office had gotten the information from Gilbert that they used his old beat up white truck they nights of the murders? Take a look at Todd Childer’s testimony during David’s first trial, when he testifies about driving to Konhe Park with Clifford Oliver, John Arnett and Cal Frazier and running into some Mexicans in a white truck that they traded beer for marijuana, that testimony holds a different light and weight when you know that Gilbert Melendez had a white truck, something the jury in David’s first trial never heard.
We move to David’s second trial, the Melendez brothers testify during this trial, the jury now knows about the white truck. The State is able to prove when Gilbert bought the truck, the person that sold Gilbert truck, Richard Sulak testifies and he has the notarized transfer of title. Gilbert bought the truck on July 3, 1982. But during this trial we don’t here from Todd Childers, so this jury doesn’t hear about what he saw when he went to Koehne Park that night and Christine didn’t testify during this trial either, so there is no mention of the trip she took to Speegleville Park. That’s a lot of information neither of the Juries in David’s two trials heard and they still found him guilty.
Now, we have to address what truck is Christine talking about. Yes, I have tried, the last time I talked to her about it, which was months ago and she must still be mad at me about it, she tried to tell me it was David’s truck and this trip took place much earlier like the summer before. I reminded her what she had testified to and that it being David’s truck doesn’t add up, she hasn’t talked to me since. But let’s go by the facts, David was released from prison in July 1981, he was originally paroled to Fort Worth. At some point he requested and was granted permission to move back to Waco to live with his mother, I don’t know the exact date on that at the moment but that should be something easy to find. Anyway Christine has stated she met David either in August or September of 1981, I would have to go latter if not later. Gene Deal, David’s parole officer, stated he first saw David in November 1982. If David was in Waco in August he didn’t make initial contact with his parole officer until two or more months later, even if he was back in Waco in September. Does Texas allow their parolees just out of the joint to freely roam around without supervision from their parole officer months a t a time, I find that hard to believe. Either way if Christine met David in August of 1981 that wasn’t early summer. The only time she was with David during what could be considered early summer was 1982. And what about David’s truck when did he have it? Again I don’t know when he first got the truck but again I don’t think that matters because when Christine and he first got together makes an summer sojourn to the park unlikely or at least not June or July. And we know when David lost the truck, that crazy night in November 1981. The night that cause the rif between David and the Melendez brothers moved out and David almost killed Christine tying her to his truck and dragging her down the road and then when she didn’t want to stay he took an ax to his truck and demolished it. Then he would get the Malibu that he still had the night of the murders. So what truck is Christine talking about, looking at the time period the answer is easy and although in court she could only narrow the time frame down to late June and early July 1982 with the other information we have we can narrow it down further. The old model truck Christine was talking about was the old truck Gilbert had bought on July 3rd, that narrows the time frame down to between July 3rd and July 19th, the night Christine left David that could be the date for the trip to Speegleville Park. With more information we obtain from people like Dorothy Miles we can narrow down that even further.
Summarizing: see how the information on this one issue came out over years, after most of the trials were over the juries in the earlier trials never heard it and just think how the D.A. could have proceeded if he had all this information from the beginning or before he went to court the first time, David’s first trial in 1984. We could have different answers. A this is just one aspect of the case, what if Josie Scionti was permitted to testify, would the inconsistencies in Clifford Oliver’s story stand? And I do believe it was Christine Juhl that first brought Clifford Oliver to the attention of Truman Simons, she knew he was with David that night. In the aftermath we can look at all the scattered information that was disseminated over a decade from such a wide variety of sources and there is still a lot of information that hasn’t been tapped and questions that haven’t even come close to being answered.
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Mrs. Thompson, I think it is correct that Simons was the first person to mention a split personality to David but we have to put it in the proper context. I don’t think it was like one day Truman said David with the way you are acting you might have a split personality. I think it was more like David asked if it was possible that he committed the murders and just didn’t remember it? Simons replied to the effect, “Like a split personality”? and David goes yeah and Truman tells him he (Truman) couldn’t determine that and that David would need to see a psychiatrist to determine this.
The testimony of Dr. James Jolliff, the psychiatrist that evaluated David, would be in line with this. When Feazell asks him about this Jolliff states that was the purpose of the evaluation because there had been some discussion about rather David did have a split personality. Jolliff determines he doesn’t not, David has a severe anti-social personality disorder on a scale from 1 to 10 the doctor says David would be a 10 the worst. A few characteristics of this disorder would be lying, manipulating, lack of remorse. Jolliff states that during his evaluation David had admitted to him that he had lied to get out of trouble in an earlier incident and he did so in a way that seemed he was proud of this and bragging, David lacked the sense that this was wrong.
Then Russ Hunt questioned Jolliff. Hunt asks if David had said anything about being told by some one else he had a split personality., Jolliff’s replies he is hesitant on that because it came up in a couple of contexts and he asks “I think you are talking about the initial? Hunt answers yes. Jolliff continues he is not certain, what he felt David was saying or asking him was; was there anything wrong with me, he wondered if he did it. David and Jolliff talked about David discussing this with Truman. Jolliff finishes with who might have mentioned it first he did not know. Mrs. Thompson I didn’t copy the testimony verbatim maybe I should have and I still can. This sounds inconclusive and maybe a little confusing. It sounds like a simple question,” Whom said split personality first? But that’s not what’s really important. You have to take in the whole evaluation, focusing on the traits in David’s personality the doctor describes. Mrs. Thompson I know this is a terrible analogy but I’m eating a brownie at the moment so it’s all I can think of; let’s say there is this dessert I really like but I can’t think the name of it. I talk to you about it and you know the name of this dessert and tel me. Did you put it in my head no I was already thinking about it. This is the same thing that happened between David and Truman, all Truman did was put a name on it, split personality. Mrs. Thompson this is what a manipulative person does. David can’t go around saying I think I have a split personality or some mental issue or disease that he hopes will lessen his culpability everyone would know what he was doing. You do just what he did, ask questions, hey is it possible I could have killed those kids and don’t remember, then we get the exchange between David and Truman. And see how it works now the discussion is Truman told David he had a split personality. David has been able to manipulate the situation into Truman thought he was crazy and needed to see a psychiatrist but that’s not really true.
Mrs. Thompson I don’t want to take out of context the talk you had with Truman but I see him telling you this like in a way he wasn’t happy about the situation, yeah he told David he needed to talk to a psychiatrist and now Truman had to deal with that craziness.
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rs7236, did Truman Simons ever say what he thought about David’s mental state, if he thought David did suffer from some mental illness?
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Vero, I understand bkl67 saying things said are sometimes not in proper context. I just remember TS telling me (on many occasions) that he would do and say things to get DS “rattled”. Especially talking to him about Christy would set him off and many times DS was found crying and going crazy in his cell. TS said DS said he had bad dreams. TS sent me a copy a drawing he claimed DS did in “SATANIC WRITING”. I have the drawing somewhere. Perhaps, I can locate it.
Must close this for now. More later.
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bkl67*****question:
Am I remembering correctly that Dr. Joliff only spent 2 or 3 hours with DS?
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Yes Dr. Jolliff only spent 2 hours with David Spence, that was considered a long session. And don’t forget the other psychiatrist that testified never saw David in person, he made his conclusions purely by what was on the record about David’s life.
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Does anyone have any thoughts on Robert Frueh now that we have been able to see the reports? Does anyone think Kenneth Franks could have had drug deals with Robert Frueh?
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I’m sure wondering about K Franks and Robert F. and drug deals.
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Mrs. Thompson, please understand I wasn’t trying to question your conversations with Truman Simons, the point I was trying to make was yes Truman was probably the first one to come out and say the words split personality and did tell David he would have to see a psychiatrist to determine this, David already in his head to try to find a way from being help responsible for his actions and I believe this is what Dr. Jolliff is saying. Dr. Jolliff was aware David had talked to Truman about this but the doctor states he is hesitant to answer that because he had talked to David in a couple contexts about this. Hunt tries to push Jolliff on this and still the doctor explains he can’t be certain and then he finally says he does not know whom first mentioned it. He did feel David was like fishing for an answer and that would match the personality traits Dr. Jolliff had witnessed in David during his evaluation, the I I I and me me me, something is wrong with me I’m the victim, Truman told me this. Pure psycho as Joilliff, and the other psychiatrist would concur, the worst of the worst 10 out of 10.
Truman and David were playing a game of cat and mouse, Truman the cat trying to catch David the mouse and David, thinking he can’t get me I’m the baddest on the block, again in line with the diagnosis. Remember David was walking around the jail wearing that bandanna with the picture of a blonde hair girl and a dark hair girl and the word outlaw scrawled on it he had Puryear draw, that was like wearing an advertisement across his forehead, yeah I’m the badass and there’s nothing anybody can do about it, that was the personality but with most psychos like this there is a certain level of delusion and that’s what Truman was playing on. We also have to consider the timing of this conversation between Truman and David when the whole idea of a split personality came up, sometime in March 1983, Dr. Jolliff did his evaluation of David on April 7th. David had been carrying on in jail since he was arrested on September 9th for the Pack incident, that was before Truman was working at the jail. David was still playing his games. David and Gilbert both had originally agreed on a plea deal for that crime, a seven year sentence, at the last moment when it came to sign on the dotted line David changed his mind, Gilbert went a head with the deal. Then Vic Feazell is elected D.A. and as usual when there is a new D.A. there are changes in the staff in the D.A.’s office. In this case the assistant D.A. that had made the deal with Gilbert and David left, that left David’s status up in the air and it remain so until Vic took office and when Vic took office he didn’t want to play any games with David, David had had his chance, there wasn’t going to be any deal. This case would go to court in March 1983 and David was found guilty and got a crazy sentence like 90 or 99 years something like that, he was going to spend the rest of his life in jail. Vic wasn’t playing any games, David could keep on playing his games with Truman because he wasn’t going anywhere anytime soon and by then Vic would have a case against David on the Lake Waco Murders, the delusion was failing a part, David needed to change is game plan, now it was time to play for a mental illness to get him off the hook. Keeping things in proper context David didn’t decide to ask to see a psychiatrist right after the conversation with Truman, he had to carry on a little bit more. Remember he was another guy in the jail that put in the request for David to see a psychiatrist, he did so because of the way David was carrying on, having crying spells and stuff like that, again manipulating making it look like he had feelings like normal people would have but it was still all for his benefit, this guy thought David needed help and told him he should ask to see a doctor and put in a request for him. David was playing it right out of the textbook. Mrs. Thompson you mentioned Truman told you many times he did and said things to rattle David and he would use Christine, I know this is true, he was trying to break David but Truman was never going to break him. Christine and I talked about this a little, let me share one of the things she and Truman did that she told me about.
Christine told me about this last summer,”Back after David was arrested and Simon’s was working at the jail and I was living at Juanita’s.
I went out behind the house to the carport (if you can call it that) And grabbed a whole bunch of Granddaddy long leg spiders. I put them in a box with a nice note on top and Simons came to the house and picked the box up. He had to look inside it before it was sealed to make sure there was nothing else in it. Simons and I laughed so hard. He took it to the jail and gave it to David personally. David opened the box and out comes a hundred or so spiders. David did not sleep for nights (maybe weeks).”
The fear David had about spiders is another element in his mental make up, as the doctor states the personality disorder David had would have developed over time, since childhood. and the fear of spiders is a good example. David had this fear in his childhood and it never went away, David realized this was a way to get attention, again probably in childhood. I don’t want to talk bad a bout the deceased but we can totally avoid the truth either. David’s mother Juanita let’s say wasn’t the most attentive mother, she had numerous relationships and they take time, effort and attention all that would come at the expense of her sons. David’s found at a young age his fear of spiders was a way he could get attention. It didn’t have to be positive attention, his mother could have just slapped him up side the head and told him he was acting like a baby, which would be a negative but he was still getting attention. Years later we can still see this in his relationship with Christine and in an abusive relationship this fear helps foster as unhealthy relationship. It’s kind of like swiping the slate clean each time he has some episode with spiders. He could beat and do atrocious things on a regular basis to Christine but when he displayed his fear of spiders he let Christine see a vulnerable side of David a weak side of David where he was the victim, where he needed love and attention and it worked to a degree, again the delusion starts to fall apart, Christine starts to see his fear of spiders as something else, it becomes something she think she can control, which in reality is not true and actually dangerous and that is the cycle of an unhealthy relationship. In the same conversation I had with Christine where she told me about sending the spiders to David while he was in jail she also shared this with me, actually this was the beginning of that conversation, sending the spiders to jail was one of the couple things she is talking about.
“I want to tell you a couple of funny stories …..
Back when we live with Juanita and Steve…. before we moved out… before the murders.
David was terrified of spiders. He would so freak out. Every night he would stand in the doorway of the bedroom. Swishing water in his mouth. Pop his knee caps and neck and look around the room. LOOKING FOR SPIDERS!
In our bedroom right above the bed was a hole in the ceiling. if you ask me it was a gunshot hole.
it was perfectly round and about 1/2 to 3/4” round. At night David though that a spider would come out of this hole. He would wake up in the middle of the night and turn on the light to look. Swearing that he could feel the spiders looking at him in the dark. After a few nights of this… I stood up on the bed and plugged the whole with the cover of the paperback book I had by the bed. This seemed to work. A few weeks went by and he stopped looking at the hole before he got into bed. So one night I unplugged the hole when he went to the bathroom. He came back to bed and fell asleep. Suddenly he wakes up screaming. He turns the light on and looks up and sure enough… there was a spider on the ceiling. Very close to the unplugged hole. It gave me great satisfaction.
We could get into the whole psychology of just that one passage but I won’t for now, we can clearly see how Christine started to realize how to use this either getting even or controlling David and that she felt and still feels good about it. I’m not judging it’s understandable, I’m pretty sure she discussed this in her therapy and it is good to talk about it and be honest about it, as I have stated many times I believe Christine to answer many questions but she will never be able to answer our questions if she can’t answer, clear up or come to terms with what’s in her mind like she has been able to do with the spiders and David.
Mrs. Thompson, sorry I know I kind of went all over the place on this one but the psychology of those involved is an aspect that shouldn’t be forgotten and not just David and Christine but others like Gayle Kelly. What is their mental make up and how could or would that have played out in the circumstances that surrounded this case?
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BKL67, you say a lot and act like you have it all figured out, What’s left to question? Do you just like to hear yourself talk?
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patsportal, I guess there is a valid question in your post somewhere and since I like to have my questions answered and like hearing myself talk I will put it like this. I believe David Spence is guilty and my feelings and thoughts on that have only grown stronger over the last few years now that I have been ale to talk to a few people. I think when you put everything that is out there together, police reports, testimony and things that were never brought up during the trials I have little to no doubt David is guilty. I feel the same way about the Melendez brothers but maybe not as strong, there is a little wiggle room. It’s the dishonesty the family has had a history of displaying that does it for me. And then I do believe Muneer Deeb at least put the idea in David’s head that he could get money if he killed Kenneth Franks and Gayle Kelly. joke or no joke I don’t know David didn’t take it as a joke. I was stocked he walked and then got treated like he was some hero for human rights. This was a guy that stalked girls, threatened them with violence, was in violation of his visa and didn’t care about the laws of the land, even if they couldn’t prove the case against him on the murders getting to walk scot free was a miscarriage of Justice.
So what are the questions I still have, there are many but I will run down just a few. Did the victims and their killers just run into each that day or had some prearranged meeting been planned, were other people involved or knew what was planned or what happened, when did they know before or after, did they take in any part of the crime and that includes after the fact, was there more than one vehicle used in some way, what happened to all the missing articles; e.g. clothes, purses and other personal effects, how did Jill’s paycheck stubs end up laying on the ground, whom did this, when and why. I think that last one could answer a lot of questions. So that’s a few questions that come to mind right off but I know there are plenty of others.
Yes I believe David and the Melendez brothers are guilty but there are questions, is it enough to create reasonable doubt? Reasonable doubt is subjective, what I might see as reasonable doubt but not enough to acquit, others might feel it creates too much reasonable doubt and cannot convict. I just saying by what I’ve seen I think I was sitting in the jury I would have voted guilty but I’ve seen a lot of stuff a jury knew saw or heard about. I hope that helps clear things up for you, I like to have more people in the conversation.
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BKL67, the one lady is Jill Montgomery’s aunt and the one girl that doesn’t talk to you anymore was David Spence’s girlfriend at the time. Who are you and how are you connected to the case?
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patsportal, I’m not connected to the case in anyway. I guess I’m the emotionally unattached third party like a jury that would like to find the truth.
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I would rather hear from people connected to the case in someway at least they know what they are talking about.
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patsportal, I would like to hear from those people more too but you have to get them to talk. You don’t know how many people I have tried to contact and tried to get to talk, a lot of these people haven’t talked in decades and still don’t want to talk. It’s a lot easier said than done, trust me on that one.
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Brian do you think there is any connection between Robert Frueh and Mr. Franks and Kenny King? They lived on the same street and they all were homosexuals.
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CC, back sometime ago I really thought that was a good possibility, if David and the brothers didn’t do it. The whole homosexual thing kept coming up, not only Mr. Franks and Robert Frueh but there was Drury Singleton and James Lucas. And with Lucas the two boys he picked up said he took them to a house on Rambler Street to get drugs. Kenneth Franks was seen on that street the day he was murdered. His girlfriend of the time Michelle Lewis lived on that street but she didn’t see him that day. They had planned to get together later that evening but Kenneth had called her that evening and told her that some friends had come to town and he was going to hang with them, that would have been Jill Montgomery. Then we have DeAnna Storst, she lived in the same apartment complex as Michelle, she lived like right next door, one apartment number was like 7 and the other was 9. That is how Deanna met Kenneth about the week before. But Deanna was the girl that reported seeing Kenneth in Frueh’s car that night. When she first called she didn’t know the license plate number and was told when she found that to call back, which she did a couple weeks later. I wondered where DeAnna had seen the car the second time and if it was on the street she lived. This wasn’t the case, so that line of thinking really didn’t pan out, just another dead end and I haven’t seen anything else that would re-spark any real interest in going down that path again. Not saying there isn’t anything out there I just haven’t seen it, I don’t want to discourage anybody if they want to look in that direction.
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FYI–Frueh had lived on Rambler Street during the 1970s. It’s a small town so maybe just a coincidence or maybe he owned the house?
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That’s a very strong possibility. Do you know what his address was on Rambler? The police knew what address James Lucas took the boys. It was the drug connection that was intriguing to me.
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CC84., while on a trip to Waco one day, we drove through Savanah Courts. That street enters off Lakeshore Drive and curves into a circle as it exits back onto Lakeshore. R. Frank’s Townhouse is directly across from R. Frueh’s. In other words, the Back side of their homes were practically together. They were very close neighbors. (Just a comment)
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rs7236, do you know anything about Kenny King? How long had he been with Richard Franks?How did they meet? Was he from Waco?
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bkl67…I have a question for you. In all your research have you ever found anything concerning the making of a “snuff film” in the Lake case.
Very early into the investigation, family members were told that was a possibility. I realize they were looking into numerous scenarios. However, I later was told that R. F rueh indulged in movie making during the orgies he held at his home.
I realize this could be “just another rabbit trail”, but I know Jill could have been pulled into a situation like that. She did love attention !
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Hello rs7236–have you come across evidence that Robert Frueh filmed people or that he had orgies? Did the police say this? I have also heard the movie making rumor–but with a slightly different twist–that he filmed kids in their cars having sex out at the lake and that they did not know about it.
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Mrs. Thompson, the only thing I remember seeing about Robert Frueh and films was from Benny Poston, his wife Donna worked with Mr. Frueh at Four C college. Mr. Poston stated that Frueh would take people to his home, ply them with alcohol and drugs and show pornographic movies. Did Mr. Frueh make these movies? As you know there isn’t much about Frueh in the police reports for the Lake Waco Murders. We have Bennie Poston’s statement. Then there was Ronald Robinson, that’s the guy that saw Frueh in Koehne about 1:30 a.m. which was in line with what Frueh would tell police in November when they finally got around to talking to him. Robinson changed his story the second time he was interviewed. Robinson and Frueh agreed on the time but Frueh stated he talked to two subjects that were in a pick-up with two girls and didn’t say anything about talking to Robinson, whom was in a blue Duster and Robinson still had the piece of paper Frueh had handed him with his phone number and address. And finally there was DeAnna Storst and you definitely know more about that.
I think what we need to do is find out what criminal behavior Robert Frueh was involved in that the police were aware of, see if there is anything in those records. The picture they pulled to show DeAnna was listed as PD#26151, I’ll try to find what case that is connected to and try to find what charges he faced while he was in Waco. This might be a little more difficult, when I tried to find what the Waco Police Department had on Clifford Oliver I was told I had to narrow it down, I’m still working on that. And they couldn’t find anything connected to the name Patti Deis. I was looking for what happened to the physical evidence collected from her apartment after the first break-in, I still wonder what happened to that.
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The statements about the porn shows were made by Poston to police–correct?
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HGG, that is correct. Bennie Poston told the police about the movies on July 17th.
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Mrs. Thompson did you ever talk to David Chapman?
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blk167–According to an article in the Waco Tribune Herald dated 3/10/73, Robert was moving into a house at 802 Rambler Dr. He moved to Rambler when he moved to Waco to take over a small church there.
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HGG Thank you, I will try to get the records on James Lucas to see what address he gave to the police.
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Regarding comment about Benny Poston and RF and porn films–I wonder how he knew for sure about those films. There is so much rumor that it’s hard to find the truth about RF. I’m not saying he wasn’t guilty of some of these things, but that a gay man in the eighties in Waco was considered a perv by virtue of being gay.
The rumors about his death support my speculation, i.e. he picked up a young innocent walking or hitchhiking down the highway, took him home and tried to seduce him and the guy stabbed him repeatedly in an effort to defend himself. I’ve heard this story so many times from people who lived in Waco back then.
Of course I also have to be aware of my own innate bias. I knew RF as a very different person and it’s hard to change perspectives. Please rs3276 and blk167, know that I mean no disrespect when I question statements. I’m looking for facts behind the conjecture. Though when there is this much conjecture, one thinks there must be something to it. I do.
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HGG, we can only speculate how Poston knew this, just another example when the police don’t ask the obvious question. This wasn’t the first time and wouldn’t be the last, just to mention a couple that are totally mind boggling. When the police first talked to Kenneth Franks’ friends on July 14th and 15th, they were asked about Kenneth’s friends and people he knew but never asked if there was anybody he was having any problems with. On July 20th when the police finally were able to talk to ask Gayle Kelly they never asked her about Muneer Deeb even though the police were informed, just the day before, by Lisa Kader, a girl that lived on the same unit as Gayle at the Methodist Home, that Deeb had killed Kenneth because of Gayle. Just think what different answers we could have now if the police just asked a couple simple questions, questions people would reasonably expect. That leaves us to speculate, which I will do.
Bennie Post stated that Robert Frueh would invite couples to his home and show the movies. I don’t know if Poston knew this from personal experience or not, if he did I would guess Frueh had asked the Postons over at some point, knowing Donna from work. Another thing I think needs to be taken into consideration, the late 70’s and early 80’s were a boom period for the porn industry, of coarse before the internet, because of video tape. Everyone was getting VCRs in their homes. Poston informs police this is how Frueh showed the movies at his home, with video equipment. I would lean toward this being the case for Robert Frueh, he just went to the nearest video store and rented porn, not making his own. With going into the store and renting these movies and being seen would surely lend itself to rumors, ” Hey you know that preacher that comes in and rents porn” and then the rumors spread from there and we know what happens when rumors start to spread, it becomes Frueh is making his own movies and this and that. Saying Robert Frueh was a perv was my own commentary,I’ve never seen the police make a comment anything close to that, yes there is mention Frueh was gay but it looks like that was well known. The second time the police talked to Ronald Robinson, July 25th, he states the guy he saw at the park on the night of the murders reminded him of a substitute teacher he had in junior high that was gay named Mr. Frueh and it was. Robinson was in his early twenties in 1982 so it had been about 8 to 10 years since he was in junior high, by his statement we would have to figure that Frueh being gay was known by some people way back then. What other behavior others might have been aware of I don’t know, my comment was to Robert Frueh’s overall lifestyle, mainly hiding being the cloth per se, that’s a certain type of deviousness, whatever you want to call it. HGG my point being we still don’t know what people might have known about Robert Frueh, including the person that killed him. You mentioned the rumors you have heard and how they support your speculation about his death, I would caution bending facts to match rumor is a losing battle. The information the killer gave the police when he confessed goes against what you are saying and keep in mind we still don’t know the identity of the killer at this point, so unless the people that are spreading the rumors know this identity they are at best giving second hand accounts, not very reliable.
The guy that confessed did not say Frueh picked him up hitch hiking, this could be the case again without knowing the identity how can we say for sure Frueh ever picked him up. What he states is he met Frueh through a mutual friend, I would speculate this connection could have been made through the church. Jeff Williams, the pastor knew this guy from church, the same church Frueh had a connection to. Again we can speculate that the guy knew Frueh was gay for sometime and if so he must have been comfortable around Mr. Frueh at least comfortable enough to do business with him, he stated he had been running drugs for Frueh for some time. We don’t know if Frueh and this individual had any sexual encounters prior to the day Frueh was killed, As the killer tells police he killed Frueh when Frueh didn’t come up with the money. The killer might not have been happy about the sexual encounter but it’s Frueh’s inability to pay him that causes him to attack Frueh, this is clearly stated in the report. Throws into question self defense I would say a better argument could be made for a drug deal gone bad, business partners in drug dealing had a fallen out over money. Either way it’s speculation. HGG I don’t take any offense or object to you questioning, criticizing, or critiquing my statements, that’s why we are here, I’m glad you have joined the conversation and what you have been able to add, you were the one that opened up this subject and led us to delve into it deeper to find the facts and that’s what needs to be done, even if it is to just discount Robert Frueh in any connection to this case. That is the interest here is Robert Frueh connected in anyway? HGG you have people asking questions rather there is a drug connection with Kenneth Franks and Robert Frueh. We need to look into that, I have a few thoughts on that, I’ll start a new post on that, this reply is getting long enough. It’s all good.
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bk67–I did not mean in my earlier post that I believed the rumors about R picking up a hitchhiker. I was trying to make the point that these rumors were believed and spread by folks who had an opinion of R because he was a gay baptist preacher and to be fair because they had heard that he cruised the lake. They were so sure they were right–and that made me question their story. I think much of the speculation about Robert and perhaps even the redaction of the murderer’s name may have to do with his homosexuality. Robert’s murder was not self defense and the question remains about how and whether the case was prosecuted.
One thing, you said in your post below that the pastor Jeff Williams, Robert and Robert’s murderer knew each other through church. Have you read this somewhere?
Also like you, I read, maybe in Mike Hall’s article, that there rumors that Kenneth was involved in drug dealing–also read that there were rumors he owed someone money–I think it was $5,000–but I may be wrong about that. If I’m right, that’s the same amount of money over which Robert was killed a few years later.
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HGG, you have me a little confused are you questioning if Robert Frueh was gay? I can’t see his homosexuality or rumor of such having anything to do with the redaction. If people knew or thought he was gay and knew he was murdered, which as far as I know was made public, what would that have to do with the redaction? The redaction is done to protect and/or hide the killer for whatever reason it’s not done in anyway to shield Robert Frueh from rumors about his lifestyle. I don’t think there is any question if the case was prosecuted, it wasn’t. Why is the question. That’s why I asked you if you knew any of Robert’s family. What if you had a family member murdered and the state decided not to prosecute? You would want answers, I would think it would have been the same for Robert’s family. His brother Delbert is mentioned in the report. It would be interesting to hear what the family has to say about it. I haven’t seen where the family ever made an issue about the status of the case, tells me they accepted the reasoning whatever it was.
About Jeff Williams, Robert Frueh and his murderer knowing each other from church, I stated I was speculating as saying Robert picked up his killer hitch hiking would be. I did say meeting through church sounded to me more likely. Jeff Williams told police he was the killer’s pastor, that connects those two through the church, it was the same church Robert Frueh was associated with. That we can connect all three individuals to that church makes it a good possibility that is how they met, but again it’s just speculation.
I also remember reading something about Kenneth owing money, I didn’t think it was $5,000 I thought it was $500 I can be wrong. The two people that came to mind right off were two of the boys that lived at the Methodist Home and talked to police; Kenneth Adkisson and Mike Sutton, I remembered both had mentioned an altercation and I thought one of them mentioned this, so I did look this up real fast. Adkisson did say Kenneth owed someone money but the amount he stated was $150. The other person that comes to mind that could have said something about this was Rusty Escott but I don’t put any value in anything he says, his story telling abilities have been solidly proven. I will go back and look over what he might have said about this or there were others that might have said something to this effect.
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Questioning the connection(s) between Kenneth Franks and Robert Frueh, well at least my thoughts on it but please contribute any thoughts and questions. OK, there are the two obvious connections. First they both lived on Savannah Court; Franks at 2804 and Frueh at 2934, so there is a very strong possibility they at least knew each other, I think it is safe to say it is more probable than not. Then we have the widely alleged drug, mostly marijuana, activity of both, again to differing degrees I think this has been rather well established, still there are enough rumors floating around to question the exact nature of this activity. As with most rumors there is usually some truth to them but as the rumors spread the details and facts become distorted. I would be remiss if I failed to mention we do have the account of DeAnna Storst, she reported to police she saw Kenneth Franks with Robert Frueh in his car the night of the murders. Beyond this do we have anything else? Do we even have a hint or rumor of any animosity or drug dealing between Franks and Frueh? That’s the problem I run into connecting Frueh to this crime, I’m not saying Frueh might have given or sold Franks weed at some point but with all the rumors that were going around about both that there isn’t at least one rumor of this stands out. Many kids told police about Kenneth’s alleged drug use and dealing, Robert Frueh’s name never came up once in this regard.
If we believe in a drug connection and that connection had something to do with the murders, I believe drugs or at least the idea of a drug deal played a part, we have to look at what information is out there. Many kids knew the Melendez brothers sold weed at the high schools, we have Deeb giving or selling weed to the girls from the Methodist Home but no one knows where he was getting his supply. David Spence was suppose to be a regular drug user but he didn’t have a job or money so where was he getting his drugs and the same can be said about Kenneth, it was widely reported he smoked and sold weed but where was he getting his supply and his money? Could it have been Robert Frueh? Is there anything out there that could help us answer this?
We always run into a problem picking to believe one rumor over another or blindly believing one person over another and it is no different here. But there is one statement made to police that I put more weight in than I do the others, This would be what Gayle Kelly told Mike Nicoletti when she was first interviewed on July 20, 1982. Trust me I know all about putting to much faith into what Gayle Kelly says but there is something about this statement, I think it has to do with the detail, something she usually fails to give. With most of Gayle’s interactions with law enforcement at the time you can see she always gives the minimalist answer, always saying as little as possible even to the point you feel she is not telling the truth and not telling all she knows. She reacts a little different during this July 20th interview. During this interview she states Kenneth had told her he was planning to make a lot of money on a drug deal. Kenneth wouldn’t give her the name of the person he was making the deal with for her own safety. He told her it was somebody she knew and that this person had left Waco and come back recently. Whom was this mysterious person? Could Robert Frueh fit this description? Actually I asked Gayle about this, I actually ran some names past her, she told me she did not know any of the names I asked her about. I did not ask her about Robert Frueh. The person Kenneth told her about she would have known but wouldn’t have known Kenneth was dealing with him. This is one of the many reasons I give as to why Terry “Tab” Harper wasn’t involved in these murders, Gayle Kelly knew him and was aware Kenneth dealt with him, if the person that killed Kenneth was the same that he planned to make this deal with it had to be somebody she didn’t know was dealing with Kenneth and some one there was some reason to feel there was something to worry about. Again, could this be Robert Frueh? Did the kids know something about Frueh that gave them some reluctance to deal with him. And don’t forget we have information that Jill might have had some hesitation about something before going to Waco that day. After Jill asked her mother about what do you do when you love some one that you know is bad for you, her mother states she felt something was wrong with Jill, she was moody and would not talk. So we have two independent accounts that Kenneth and Jill might have realized they were dealing with some one they had worries about. Robert Frueh? We can ask Gayle if she knew Robert Frueh and if she knew about any dealings Kenneth had with him but I don’t know where that would get us, I would say David Spence better fits as being this guy. He had returned to Waco from prison about a year before. At least the girls knew David from partying at the lake, Gayle told me he and the Melendez brothers were always trying to befriend them, like the girls didn’t want anything to do with them. I have never been able to find if this is true or not but one time Gayle Kelly asked me if I knew what David Spence had done to Bobby Brem. Bobby Brem was Kenneth Franks’ best friend, some of the girls that ran away from the Home stayed at Bobby’s house including Jill Montgomery and Gayle Kelly, they were all friends, if Bobby had an altercation with David Spence it’s more than likely that his friends knew about this and this could have been a reason to be weary about dealing with him. Now I have to admit when Gayle told me this I had to ask her if she was mixing up names, I had never heard this before, there were some rumors about an altercation that may have involved some combination of Kenneth, Bobby and a Tony. I asked Gayle if maybe she was mixing up Bobby with Darvin Pack. She would never reply, very troubling making a statement like that and then not being able to answer a simple yes or no question about it. Then I tried to ask Bobby Brem and he would not answer, again a simple yes or no answer would do, he should know if he had an altercation with David or not. Then I asked Kenneth Adkisson, another kid that lived at the Home at the time and is friends with Gayle Kelly, actually he was one of the boys that told the police about the fight that occurred between Kenneth and Bobby and/or Tony but he wouldn’t answer either. Doesn’t look like Kenneth Franks’ friends like Gayle Kelly and Bobby Brem are interested in clearly things up and helping find the truth, with friends like this Kenneth Franks didn’t need any enemies. But it’s these same people we will need to find if there was any other connection between Kenneth Franks and Robert Frueh.
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FYI, trusted sources have told me that Robert was friends with Kennth’s father, Richard. I’m fairly certain there was a connection. But I do not believe Robert had anything to do with the murders. He may have known something about what was happening at the lake. I’m not convinced R was dealing drugs–despite testimony of his murderer. Why didn’t the police question R more about the Lake Waco Murders–this seems so odd to me.
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HGG, I’m not disputing Richard Franks and Robert Frueh knew each other and by extention Kenneth would have known Robert Frueh, I think that has been well established. I guess I don’t know how to put this correctly but we all have parents and our parents probably have friends and we would probably know these friends to differing degrees. I personally still don’t know how Mr. Franks and Mr. Frueh first became acquainted, was it just because they lived in the same neighborhood or as I have asked before and never found an answer was it maybe through church since it looks like both men were active in church? And then what about Kenneth and Mr. Frueh; would it have been out of place to see them together, maybe like Frueh giving Kenneth rides at times or would that have been something Kenneth’s friends were use to seeing? I don’t know either way, so I can’t say it would be strange and questionable if they were together or not. But to be honest I really haven’t looked into this very much, I don’t believe Robert Frueh had anything to do with the murders or knew anything about them. I think he’s a red herring, some people were aware of some of his behavior and mentioned him to police and he was in Koehne Park that night. I do believe Robert Frueh was involved in drugs in some way. Not only do we have the account from his killer but Ronald Robinson stated Frueh asked if he wanted something to smoke, that’s my own wording I can’t remember the exact wording from the report, Robinson said it was hash and that he was familiar with hash because he had been around it before. And why didn’t the police question Robert Frueh more about the Lake Waco Murders? Good question but it was just another thing they missed or didn’t follow up before they suspended the case on September 3rd. After Vic Feazell was elected in November they (Waco Police) went back over their records and finally got around to some of the things they had failed to do the first time around and in my own opinion it was a half hearted effort then.
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I’ve wondered if Gayle met or knew Robert since it seems she was often at the Franks’ condo and Robert and Richard were friends.
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That was one of the things I was asking last night. We can still ask her now, I just don’t know how much faith we can put in her answer or if she would even give one. I just know from before when I ran a couple names across her she told me she didn’t know any of the names I mentioned, there was one I was pretty sure she would have known and then when I explained who he was and why I thought she would have known him she didn’t have anything to say. I will try again.
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There may be a way for me to find out if RF left Waco for a time, then came back. I’ve always assumed that since he pastored a church–more than a full time job–he couldn’t have. But maybe he took a sabbatical then returned. I’ll look into it.
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Also he worked at the Four C college and was a substitute teacher, so his plate was pretty full.
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bkl67, & HGG….I have nothing going to back up my suspicion concerning films other than:
Very early into the investigation, I was told by one of the investigators they were working on the scenario of a snuff film. I didn’t even know what that was. I asked someone, “what does that mean?” I do not remember which investigator talked to me about it. At that time, we (family) were getting most of our info from Salinas, D. Baier, Simon’s.
Another person who carried a camera with him at all times, RICHARD FRANK’S. Court Judge finally told him he could not continue to bring the large camera/and case into the Court room. He had been taking pictures of Juanita Spence and she complained.
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Mrs. Thompson I don’t know anything about the possibility of snuff films, I would say that idea pops up from time to time in cases. There were rumors the the Manson Family made snuff films. They had stolen some film equipment somewhere along the line. There were people willing to pay to get a hold of these movies, including Ed Sanders the author of The Family. Again there were rumors of snuff films being made by the zodiac killer or more precisely suspect Rick Marshall, he had worked at a theater and collected or kept films. Nothing ever came of it in either case. I would guess as long as Richard Franks was a viable suspect and the police knew he made video tapes, remember he video taped the car belonging to the Gutierrez brothers for whatever reason, that still hasn’t made sense to me, the police kept all options open.
And Mrs. Thompson I’m not sure what you would know about this but didn’t Mr. Franks and David’s mother have some kind of confrontation during the trial for the Pack incident?
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bkl67. Yes, there was a confrontation between Juanita and Richard. The best of my recollections is Richard went to Juanita and told her to tell her son to admit what he had done. Richard told me that he “begged” her to do so. R had been taking pictures of her and she became very upset.
This happened at the court house.
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rs7236–Interesting that Ricard carried a camera. Also sounds as if he were trying to intimidate Juanita.
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Richard was his own worst enemy! He was under the influence most of the time.
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Mrs. Thompson, very interesting point. Do you think maybe his drinking had something to do with why he wasn’t very cooperative with the police early on?
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Bkl67 Richard appeared to ALWAYS be under the influence. Everyone talked about his use of drugs. Even his own x wife.(Kenneth’s mother, Sandra Sadler) .
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Drug use? Do tell.
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Bkl67….sarcasm??
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Mrs. Thompson, no sarcasm, sorry I was about to walk out so I just made a speedy comment because I definitely want to hear about this. I’ve never heard this before, Heard plenty that Mr. Franks was a heavy drinker but have never heard drugs mentioned before. You know I have always questioned how Mr. Franks acted but you can’t judge someone’s grief or make a fair assessment of that grief and I think it would be more difficult when it’s tied to a brutal crime. But if Mr. Franks was not just a heavy drinker but also a heavy drug user we might have to look at some of his actions in a different light and then questions arise. And what kind of drugs are we talking about?
Mr. Franks was at Midway Park the night of July 13th but he did not tell law enforcement until sometime later, Sargent Robert Fortune said it was about two weeks after the murders. Why hadn’t Mr. Franks told the police he was at Midway Park that night before this? He stated he left his place a little after 9:00 p.m. went to Midway sat awhile, he was hungry so he drove to the Dairy Queen and grabbed a couple burgers then returned to the park and stayed until about midnight, he got home shortly after midnight. Midway was where Mr. Franks would find Clifford Oliver’s vandalized car the next morning. When the officers asked Mr. Franks if he had seen that car before he said he hadn’t and he didn’t know the owner of the car. Oliver and his friends hung out at Midway for about a hour to a hour and a half that night which would have been within the same time Mr. Franks had been there and he never noticed any of this? Maybe not. But why did he return to Midway the next morning when he found Clifford’s car, Mr. Franks had been there and would have known Kenneth and his friends hadn’t been there. Mr. Franks states he knew Kenneth liked to hang out at Koehne Park and went there to look for him and found Raylene’s car. Why return to Midway? Mr. Franks went out looking for the kids twice that night, the first time I think a little after 2:00 a.m., at that time he went to Koehne and he said he left a note on the car. On his second trip he would return to Koehne remove the note from the car then went to Midway, this was when he called the police shortly after 6:00 a.m.. Did Mr. Franks go to Midway Park the first time he went out? If so what did he see? Did he see a vandalized car at that time? If so why didn’t he call it in then? I don’t know the answers to any of these questions, all I know is since Mr. Franks waited about two weeks to tell the police that he was at Midway Park that night he didn’t have to answer some of those questions and would have had time to work on his story.
If I’m not mistaken this interview where Mr. Franks disclosed that he was at Midway Park the night of July 13th was also when he made the strange and questionable statement to the effect that he was there with Kenneth the whole time when he was getting killed, I don’t think anyone took this literally, well I guess there were some people that were having some serious questions and doubts about Mr. Franks at that time. What I took this to mean was Mr. Franks knew Kenneth was having problems and Mr. Franks hadn’t done anything to help with these problems and Mr. Franks knew or believed these problems lead to his sons death, again if Mr. Franks was also involved in drugs that statement could take on a whole new meaning. Pryor to this interview Mr. Franks had said everything was going good with Kenneth that there were no problems, he had said he and Kenneth were close and got along very well and that Kenneth had never stayed out all night before. The police were finding out this wasn’t totally true. Gayle Kelly told police she and Kenneth had stayed out all night a few times. Kenneth wasn’t happy his father had gotten rid of the boat. The issue of homosexuality was pretty much skirted but Gayle had stated Kenneth had a problem with it and Mr. Franks’ boyfriend didn’t get along with Kenneth. I don’t think the police had talked to Danny McSpadden or Danny McGinnis by the time of this interview with Mr. Franks but they would repeat some of the same things as Gayle. And this is without drugs ever being mentioned but when you have a parent and their kids both using drugs usually there are problems. Before hearing Mr. Franks was using drugs I believed he was just breaking down during this interview, which I still believe is the case but there might have been more to it.
We also have the time Mr. Franks would not allow the police in his home. This was just a couple days after the murders either Thursday July 15th or Friday 16th. The police wanted to look in Kenneth’s room, Mr. Franks wouldn’t allow it, he wouldn’t even allow them in the house, again very strange but then maybe he did have something more to hide. There was a judge that lived in the same neighborhood and knew Mr. Franks; Walter Smith. Judge Smith got involved and it was worked out the police told him what they were interested in seeing in Kenneth’s room, which in itself is nearly impossible to answer because without going in and searching the room you can’t know if you will find something.or what it could be. In the end they asked for all personal letters, notes, phone numbers, which Mr. Franks brought to the station a few days later. So these are the few times Mr. Franks behavior was very questionable in those first couple weeks.
There is one other thing and I can’t say it was Mr. Franks but it has never been answered and it’s one of those things that I believe could really tell us a lot; Jill’s pay check stubs. Four of Jill’s pay check stubs were found on the ground around the area where the kids had parked. They weren’t found until the morning of the 15th, the day after the bodies were discovered. Tells us something about how well the police searched the area on the 14th. The police first arrived on the scene on the 14th shortly after 9:00 a.m. after Mr. Franks filed a missing persons report. The Pinto the kids had driven to the park would stay there until after 2:00 p.m on the 14th by then it was thought the kids probably were not going to return so the car was impounded. The check stubs would be found the next day when officers went back to search the area again. We don’t know the who, when or how the check stubs got where they were found. Mrs. Thompson I know we have talked about this privately and I know I have mentioned these stubs a few times here, I think they are very important. I’m not sure if you remember our conversation on this but I asked you if you thought Jill would have carried these checks loosely or put them in her purse. I thought it was most likely she would have kept them in her purse, hey that’s why girls carry purses around in the first place so they can carry all kinds of stuff with them. Mrs. Thompson you concurred and I still believe this was the case, Jill had those stubs in her purse. Again we can’t be 100% sure on this, she could have put them in the glove compartment or somewhere else in the car. But if they were in her purse it would mean the purses were in the car when the stubs were taken out, what happen to the purses? And that the girls left their purses in the car could tell us something else.
If we take it that the stubs were in the purses and the purses were left in the car and we also know the car was left unlocked what does that tell us? It gives us a couple scenarios One; the kids were dragged away so fast they didn’t have time to react. I doubt this because there were about a dozen people around at anytime in the park that night , no one stated seeing any kind of altercation or struggle and I can’t believe the kids would have been forced to leave with some one without putting up some kind of resistance and some one would have seen that or taken notice. And other than the defensive slash wounds on Jill’s hand there really aren’t any other defensive wounds, you would expect to find some if there was more of a struggle or if the kids were forcibly removed from the park, that’s just not the case. At least one of the kids knew the person they left with. The other, more likely scenario , the girls left their purses in the car and the car was left unlocked because they weren’t planning to go far maybe not even planning to leave the park. Meet someone at the park, get in their car to take care of some kind of personal business, probably drugs, getting out and going on their merry way but that’s not what happened for whatever reason. But if it was the killers that went through the purses what were they looking for? Was it just a straight out drug burn, kids meet the killers for drug deal , get drugs and then the people they made the deal with come back to take the drugs back? I doubt this, it would mean the kids would have had to gotten up with their killers two different times, once to make the deal and then they would have the drugs in the car and then getting up with these people again when they would take off with them and never return. Doesn’t make sense, why would the kids get up with these people a second time if they already had what they wanted? There are clues for a much more likely scenario.
I know I’m repeating this again but there is reason to believe Jill and Kenneth had some reservations about something they were doing or getting into. With Jill we have her mother’s observations and with Kenneth we have what Gayle Kelly said about the deal he was planning to make. we also have the fact that Kenneth left his keys in the back seat of the car, something Mr. Franks said he told Kenneth to do if he was in trouble and probably the reason Mr. Franks knew something was wrong when he did see Kenneth’s keys in the backseat. I know this sounds strange, I thought so to when I first heard it but I can see where it makes sense when we put the other information together with it. Ok so the kids are planning to make a drug deal or what they think will be a drug deal with some one they don’t trust, how could they protect their interest if not their own beings? You’re making a drug deal with some one you don’t trust you don’t flash your money. The girls left their money in their purses, they wanted to see the goods first. They get in the car but there are no drugs, they have to be taken somewhere to get them, not the kids plan but they go along with it but there aren’t any drugs this starts the confrontation in the car, things turn violent and we know the brutal end. Then the killers come back to the car later to get the money. Going through the purses looking for the money Jill’s check stubs get thrown out and are found on the ground later. If this was the case when did the killers return? Later that same night? What about the next morning? I would point out David Spence and Clifford Oliver returned to the park the next morning. Clifford stated they never touched the Pinto, they were just sitting on the table closest to the Pinto, it was still there when they went to Koehne Park that morning.
That is just speculation on how the check stubs came to be where they were found if the killers were responsible. Nothing to do with Mr. Franks. But if the killers didn’t throw out the stubs who else could have? What about Mr. Franks? He admitted he went through the car trying to find a way to contact the girls parents. If Mr. Franks did this why didn’t he say so? And if the check stubs were in Jill’s purse and Mr. Franks went through the purse what happened to the purses? They were never found. If Mr. Franks took the purses even if it was just some bad mistake he made when he was drunk, again why doesn’t he just say I took the purses, make up some reason like he thought it wasn’t a good idea to leave the purses in the car and took them for safe keeping? But then what if Mr. Franks did have some serous drug problem and he is high at the time and he finds the purses and the money in the purses and decides to take both? Maybe another reason why Mr. Franks didn’t want the police looking around his place. I don’t know, I like the earlier scenario better but when you add drugs and Mr. Franks to the equation other possibilities surface.
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Brian, very compelling I see you are refining your theory.
rs7236, do you think he’s on to something or do you think he’s just crazy?
What do others think, if David Spence didn’t do it who did? I see a lot of people saying David didn’t do it, if not somebody did, who? I never see that.
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bakersfieldvero, what about James Russell Bishop? I’ve seen some strong arguments for him.
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awebb90 is James Russell Bishop who you think did it? And why?
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bakersfieldvero , he committed a similar crime here in California. Abducted 2 girls tied them up and raped them. In both cases he was able to get the girls in areas that had a lot of people around.
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Vero, Tab Harper, there’s a ton of people pushing that including the writer Fred Dannen.
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Fred Dannen claimed to have all kinds of proof of his scenario. He stated to me “he had a storage building full” and it would all come out in his book. That was in 200l !!! NO book 17 years later ! However, his story on T. HARPER and a few more people was fairly convincing back then. Now, not so convincing ! My question to F.D., “why?”..
According to F.D. T.Harper was Richard and Kenneth Frank’s drug supplier. Another “rabbit trail, or something to check out?”
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rs7236–if T Harper as weed? supplier to the Franks is a rabbit trail, it’s an interesting one. I wonder what the hell happened to Dannen re:that book. Was it the DNA test stalling out? I’m not talking about where he went, what he’s doing, etc, but why he’s not publishing. I wonder if he found something that contradicted his theory.
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HGG. You asked the $64,000 question .
Dannen collected advances & had everyone convinced the book would be published within one year (in 2001). I was involved in Dannen receiving the evidence from David Chapman where it was turned over to Pat Eddings with the Forensic Lab for dna testing. Whatever happened after that is a long story, too much for here. Shortly after this Dannen left for Mexico. Michael Hall illustrated this case as going in dozens of different directions in his Texas Monthly article. He was SO RIGHT ON!!
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rs7236–I’ve read some of what happened with the test and the DNA lab. Bizarre.
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I agree HGG. Bizarre and very questionable. We have the questions, but the answers seem few and far between.
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Update on records request, the records I requested on Robert Frueh have been sent to the city attorney, there might be some legal issue in getting those records, I was told I might have to narrow the scope of my request, they do not release a complete criminal history. I should hear something in a few days.
Records on Patti Deis and the break-in of her apartment are non- existent, they looked for days. I asked how this could be, I was told Patti Deis could have requested to have her records expunged, sounded reasonable. But after I got off the phone I thought about that for awhile and I wondered if she wanted her records expunged wouldn’t she have wanted her name removed/redacted from the Lake Waco Murders, which clearly isn’t the case. Why only have the records about the break-in removed? The break-ins are still mentioned in the Lake Waco Murders reports. So I don’t know. I decided I would ask her about this not that I expect an answer she has never responded before but I have to try.
My request on the police records of Clifford Oliver don’t seem to have any problems. So I guess we will get to see what interactions he had with law enforcement in 1982 and what offenses he was charged with and if he was ever convicted. And finally I sent off my request for the records on James Lucas, I didn’t want to put in too many request at one time but with the Patti Deis request at an end I figured I could send another.
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Mrs. Thompson, getting into this stuff about Robert Frueh reminds me of a conversation we had, I think it was early last year. I asked you if you knew where DeAnna Storst saw Robert Frueh the second time when she called the police. I wondered if it was Rambler Drive. Now with the information HGG gave that Robert Frueh had lived on Rambler and your comment about Mr. Franks’ drug use, I think it’s a good time to get into it again.
A little refresher for those that might wonder what I’m rambling on about this time. As you all know I believe David Spence, the Melendez brothers and Muneer Deeb were guilty but if they weren’t there are definitely enough other possibilities. When I first read the police reports one thing that stood out to me was the amount of attention the homosexual community garnered at the time, maybe there is something to it. Richard Franks, Robert Frueh, James Lucas, Drury Singleton among others. I don’t want to sound like I’m gay bashing, that’s why I really don’t get into this very much but we do have to remember the general public’s view on homosexuality has changed quite a bit since 1982, the homosexual community as a whole was more cloistered back then and that would including their illicit activities particularly drug dealings. Gays would be inclined or prefer to deal with other gays. For junkies, crackheads and meth heads feigning for a fix but short on funds and looking for a easy target to knock off, the homosexual community fit the bill, real gay bashing. Is this plausible? Could a drug deal gone bad or a rip off or an unpaid debt among the homosexual community been the true cause behind the murders. I doubt it but I do believe it is worth looking into.
Starting with what we know; Kenneth Franks was seen on Rambler Driver the day he was murdered, the boy that saw him thought Kenneth was going to see his girlfriend, Michelle Lewis or Schilling, she lived on Rambler. Michelle did not see Kenneth that day, they had planned to see each other that evening but Kenneth called Michelle after he heard from Jill and told Michelle he had some friends in town and that he wanted to hang out with them. Not much there own it’s own but I would ask why was Kenneth on Rambler Drive that day, did he know someone else that lived on that street?
Rambler Driver was also where James Lucas took the Payne brothers when he picked them up from Koehne Park. The brothers stated they smoked weed with Lucas and were offered angel dust (PCP). I would add angel dust is kind of the forgotten drug because overdoses are not as common with angel dust as with other drugs but it is a very deadly and dangerous drug, PCP is more associated with death by misadventure. Angel dust gives you the high energy boost of cocaine and the fuzzy distorted perception of reality of LSD. Suicides and violent behavior are more common with PCP use, people will just snap out and will not remember what they did. I just thought I would throw that out there. So we have Lucas taking the boys to Rambler Drive where drugs could be obtained. The questions; what was the address and who lived there? That’s what I’m hoping to find in the records, Lucas gave police this information.
Now I’m only speculating here, what if the address is the same as Robert Frueh’s when he lived on Rambler? Could Frueh have known this person and if the Franks dealt with Frueh could they have also known this person? Could have Kenneth had a problem with this person, could he have owed this person money? Even if the address Lucas took the boys and Frueh’s old address aren’t the same, I think finding out where Lucas went and whom lived there should be looked into. Can we connect Kenneth Franks to this person? Maybe the “someone” that slipped through the cracks and never was mentioned before.
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Brian, who is James Lucas?
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Vero, James “Blinky” Lucas was like Robert Frueh, he liked young boys, would troll the parks and coax the boys with drugs and then do crazy stuff like Robert Frueh but Lucas wasn’t a preacher. The other thing than stands out about Lucas was when he was questioned about the Lake Waco Murders, he did an O.J., “Well this is how I would have done it” but the stuff he said had actually happened. He said he would have cut the fence right where the fence had been cut. He told people the girls had been violated with foreign objects, I’m still not sure how he knew about that. Then there was something about the girls purses but maybe the Payne brother made this up, they said Lucas had told them he knew where the purses were because he had thrown them up in a tree. One of the brothers climbed the tree but the purses were never found but if this statement was true it would show Lucas knew that the girls purses were missing. Now this was in August 1982, I don’t know how much information the public had at that time. Anyway it was all very strange.
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Bkl67. I don’the know if you recognize any “physic ability”, but I will throw this out there because this is first time I have heard about this “James or Payne” story.
In 1983 a physic Karen Huffstetler, told me and Simons/Salinas that there was something up in a tree close to where Jill died. If they would let her, she would find it. They took Karen and me to Speegleville, she looked for the tree and claimed to find it. She wanted to climb the tree, but couldn’t . I remember there was a big nail in the tree, but couldn’t see anything else. Karen claimed that Jill had gotten away and was running when he caught her by the tree.
Now, please understand, I am not saying I believe this, but you mentioning the tree, jogged my memory of that day. It was very disturbing for me.
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bkl67. To answer where Deanna spotted Frueh the 2nd time, it was on Valley Mills Drive at an intersection. She and her husband to be noticed the car and the driver as the one at the lake. She called police with license #. Btw….I have always believed the information Deanna gave the police. We communicated for years after. Lost touch then found she had died in 2001. Never was able to find what happened to her.
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Mrs. Thompson, a lot to get into. I remember you telling me about DeAnna and you sent me the letter last year, it’s just the mention on Rambler Drive again, that’s where DeAnna lived at the time, made that little light go off in my head. I guess I should start by informing all I got the records I requested on Clifford Oliver and the assault case involving David Scott Payne, unfortunately nothing really there, I will try to work on that, more on this later.
Let’s get into the Payne brothers, William Keith and David Scott, James Lucas and Ralph Finstad, of coarse it is a little confusing and the reports I got just added to this. So I went back to the Lake Waco Murders reports. Mrs. Thompson didn’t Mr. Franks work for a Paint company? Did you know what one? Ralph Finstad worked for a Paint company. Again the story is confusing and the reports differ greatly one set of reports on the Lake Waco Murders and one set on the assault. I would say the Waco Police Department is withholding the release of a lot of the reports on the assault charge for some reason, I’m pretty sure on that. Anyway I will try to give the outline of the story as best I can.
The Payne brothers’ parents had divorced recently and the brothers were staying with their mother in Bryan, Texas. The boys got into some trouble, thief, in Bryan and the mother sent the boys to stay with their father in Waco, this was late July 1982, Both reports agree on this and they both also believe that the brothers coming forward with their information about the Lake Waco Murders was either to get the reward money or to get some kind of break on their own charges. And the assault David claimed both reports stated the wound was self inflicted, so all and all the whole story is suspect but it is interesting and when you put it with other details that have been put out there even more so.
Anyway early August the police get a call to respond to an assault at the Sambo’s restaurant, a boy was laying on the sidewalk he had been stabbed in the abdomen, this was Daivd Payne, When the police arrived David’s brother William and father Robert were there, they had already confronted the alleged stabber Ralph Finstad, who was also at the scene. The reports on the assault really doesn’t say much about how these parties had originally met or the PD is not releasing this information. There are a couple interesting things that are in these reports that aren’t in the Lake Waco Murders reports, in these reports at least one of the brothers tell the officers that Finstad had given them or agreed to give them money to keep quiet and not say anything about the murders. I think this was William Payne that told the police this, David was still in the hospital at this time. When the police interviewed David at the hospital he wasn’t much help and the officer states his statements didn’t make sense. But what I get is William had planned to meet Finstad and another person that he does not name at Koehne Park to collect the money. His story goes the brothers decided they didn’t feel safe about meeting these two guys at the park, they wanted to meet somewhere more public and that’s how they ended up at Sambo’s. That’s is roughly the Payne’s brothers’ version or original version.
Finstad of coarse had a different story, he states he was with the Payne brothers at some pizza joint and then they went to Sambo’s to meet Finstad’s nephew James Lucas. Finstad states while at Sambo’s the boys tried to get money from him trying to set him up on the murders at the lake. Generally that’s his story, I know I’m skipping some stuff but I will post the reports if anyone really wants to take the time to read them. These reports are just like the other reports I got, very difficult to read and these records don’t do much other than add more confusion to the situation. But if you didn’t notice other than Finstad saying they were suppose to meet Lucas there is very isn’t else said about Lucas. That was about to change.
So shortly after all this maybe the same day, August 3rd, the police get a call from James Lucas.he states he found a checkbook some one has lost. The police go to Mr. Lucas’ address to check this out, they find the checkbook belongs to David Payne, they ask Lucas where did he find the checkbook and he tells them Sambo’s. Now the police had just been handling the call for assault at Sambo’s and they knew Lucas was suppose to meet the parties involved in that incident so they know somethings up, so all involved are dragged down to the station and interrogated. Now the reports I got on the assault don’t really get into this too much, you have to go to the Lake Waco Murders reports to see what was said in these interviews. In the assault reports the officers conclude that the Payne brothers were just trying to blackmail or rip off Finstad and/or Lucas, they let Finstad go I don’t think he was even charged. I have to point out, I know this may look suspicious but what the police are saying in these reports is exactly what I was saying yesterday and honestly I just got these reports today, it helps confirm what I was saying. The police thought the brothers were trying to rip off these homosexuals for some reason, just like I said homosexuals were considered easy targets for this kind of behavior. But anyway let’s get into what the Lake Waco Murders reports have to say, they are more detailed.
According to the Lake Waco Murders reports the Payne brothers had just returned to Waco in late July 1982 and they were at Koehne Park, they still had their suitcases with them. The boys were swimming in the little area between the boat ramp and the circle, I guess it was like a little cove, I see it on the map but know know what people or locals called it. While there the boys were approached by a guy in a blue Datsun pick-up, this would be James Lucas. Lucas was a known homosexual and also known to ride around the parks looking for boys, sound familiar? The report is a little sketching on the chain of events, I will try to put it in an order that makes sense. So the boys and Lucas are riding around, they pick up some beer, then they go pick up Lucas’ uncle Ralph Finstad. At some point they make a stop on Rambler Driver. In the Like Waco Murders report it states that Lucas gave the officers this address and could be found in the reports on the assault, that’s why I asked for those reports but it wasn’t there. Finstad was a part time clerk at a hotel so the four go there. One correction; yesterday I stated I didn’t know how Lucas knew about some of the information about the murders he shared with the boys. The girl that worked the front desk told police she had told Lucas this and she had heard it from her mother, her mother had heard it while playing cards with the wife of a police officer. So the guys are at this hotel and some funny business goes down, the boys are asked to strip and lay on the beds, which they didn’t take to kindly to, Lucas apologizes and ends up dropping off the boys somewhere. Sometime later the boys go see Finstad at his place of work and this is when they end up at Sambo’s and the alleged assault takes place. You can see why the police were suspect about this story, first question I would have is when did Lucas and Finstad tell you about the murders? I’m not sure exactly when the police did decide to at least look into this, before they concluded the Payne brothers were trying to rip off Finstad and Lucas but they did. I would guess it was when they interviewed Lucas and he told them if he did it he would have rode down by the model airplane field cut the fence and cut through there. The police knew that had happened, some one had cut the fence there and had driven through that area. Add to that when Salinas checked out that area he found where a tree had been scraped when whatever vehicle went through there, he puts in his report the color of paint transferred from the vehicle and left on the tree was blue, Lucas had a Blue Datsun. The officer that took pictures of this area, I think it was Lyons, put in his report the paint color was green. Either way the police decide to check out this story or more precisely that Lucas had told the boys he had thrown the girls’ purses up in a tree, they take William Payne to Speegleville Park. The report says they take Payne to about a 100 yards to where the bodies were discovered, it doesn’t say if Payne directed them to this area or if that’s just where the police decided to go, they look up in the trees and Payne even climbs up in one tree, the purses aren’t found and I think that pretty much ended law enforcement’s interest in the Payne brothers’ story. Have a headache yet? I know I do.
Reminder from broken record Brian, I still believe Spence and company are guilty but with that said there are a few things that stick out about this story. Of coarse the mention of Rambler Drive, the drugs, the boys state it was Finstad that offered them the angel dust, if Mr. Franks worked with a paint company then we might have a connection with Finstad and then there is the blue Datsun and that’s not even taking into account what James Lucas said when he was interviewed. There was another person that mentioned a Blue Datsun but he doesn’t state that it was a pick-up. This was Clarence Pierce and this is what he had to say; On the night of July 13th he was riding down the highway and he came across two white males in a blue Datsun with a flat tire. Mr. Pierce decides to stop and help out these two guys change the tire, while doing so they invite him to a party at Speegleville Park, he agrees to go and follows the two guys in the Datsun. He further states while he’s at this party he sees an orange Pinto, two girls were in the front seats and two or three guys were in the back seat. His observation was the people in the Pinto were selling drugs, people kept coming and going from the car. Pierce said one of the guys in the car was white and the other was a tall and thin black guy. Around 11:00 p.m. the party started to break up, the party goers wanted to get out of there before the gate closed but he saw the Pinto drive deeper in the park before he left. Mr. Pierce’s story is very interesting not only do we have two guys in a blue Datsun but he have at least two guys one black one white in the Pinto. Remember Greg Watts and Delano King, these were the two guys that were apparently at a party telling people they had killed 3 kids by a lake outside Waco. King was well over 6 feet tall like 6’3 or 6’4 and between 170 and 180 pounds, that would be tall and thin. Well, that’s the story, make of it what you will.
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Bkl67. Yes, R. Frank’s worked for a paint company. I do not know which one.
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Here’s what little information I did get from the reports on Clifford Oliver. Clifford was never charged, Officer Dalton talked to Clifford on August 2nd and Clifford confessed to setting up the plan to report his car stolen for the insurance money but his insurance had run out on July 1st so there was no insurance money to get. The D.A.’s office decided since there wasn’t any insurance on the car at the time and Clifford couldn’t get any money, they couldn’t charge him with insurance fraud. I have to ask has the McLennan County heard of attempting to commit a crime? If I try to rob some one but they don’t have any money and I get nothing, they can’t charge me? They also decided the didn’t have enough to charge him with filing a false police report, what about the report he made? So that was that but it makes we wonder what charges were Feazell and Bulter talking about when Clifford testified during the Grand Jury?
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Bkl67. Haven’t we seen some interviews where people have stated that Clifford’s father had some “pull” with the City of Waco???
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Yes, Christine Juhl.
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Where has Christine Juhl been? We haven’t heard from her in so long. Brian is she still mad at you?
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I don’t know, sometimes she talks other times she doesn’t. She hasn’t responded in months, maybe the truth is too hard for her to face.
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Maybe she would respond if you would stop saying stuff like,” maybe the truth is too hard for her to face”.
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Do I hear aggravation and sarcasm?
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Just stating the facts and the obvious and questioning, that’s why I’m here!
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Mrs. Thompson, a few weeks ago you informed me that Raylene had two sisters, I only knew about Renelle, I had never heard about Reva. Do you know if Reva was older or younger than Raylene. I know Renelle was one year younger. There was something in David Payne’s checkbook. it’s a huge stretch but I thought I would mention it.
The police went through Payne’s transactions, I guess there were a few returned checks and deposit slips. The report states the checks prove Payne was in the Waco area between July 12th and July 15th, which would be at odds with what the Paynes, including the father, told police when they said the boys arrived in Waco at the end of July. I would add the boys were suppose to be in Bryan the same town where Anthony Melendez was suppose to be working. Listed in the report as check #2A for July 12th.will be to a possible name REBA or RELA. Reports states the first two letters are RE but can’t be positive on the last two. So I was thinking about names with four letters that start with RE, I could only come up with Rene, then I remembered Reva. The amount, which the officers again weren’t sure about, they write it is either $75 or $12. Seventy-Five dollars was the amount Raylene took from each of her paychecks to pay her parents for rent. Remember Raylene cashed a check for about $200 at the Piggly Wiggly at the same time as Jill. Mr. Rice was at a lost where this check could have come from, Raylene had been paid the Friday before, her parents got their $75 which was roughly half the check and Raylene went out that weekend and probably spent some money somewhere. The check Raylene cashed was a paycheck not a personal check but she was getting money from some unknown source. Again, it will take huge leaps to put that together but it was in the report so I thought I would put it out there.
Also in the reports there are a couple redactions and they are in this part of the report where these transactions are listed. The first redaction is Payne’s bank account number, that makes sense, The other redaction is the only one in the list of the transactions, really don’t know what it is, very unclear in the report; “Also in the checkbook is one -redacted- DL(Driver License?) – redacted. This belongs to a -redacted(name and address)- Tx, DOB -redacted- WM”. I wonder why this one item had to be redacted and if the name and address is the person I’m looking for and the reason I requested the report.
Final thought; Robert Frueh had lived at 808 Rambler Drive, DeAnna Storst lived at 802 Rambler Drive only a few doors down. As close if not closer as Robert Frueh and the Franks on Savannah Court.
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Bkl67. Reva was the youngest. I will pm you.
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bk167, Remember, Robert moved to 802 Rambler in 1972 when he first moved to Waco.
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I did take it that it was earlier than 1982. I had someone nice enough to send me the listings of the people that lived on Rambler Drive in 1982. But I do have a couple questions. The listing shows 802 Rambler as apartments. If this is the case was it so when Robert Frueh lived there and would you know his apartment number? And would you know when Robert Frueh moved out? My thinking was, again along the lines the homosexual community would have stayed to themselves as much as possible, and that James Lucas had taken the Payne brothers to an address on Rambler Drive, there could be a connection. Maybe Lucas and Frueh knew each other? Maybe there was a drug connection they used on Rambler Drive? Maybe Frueh was this drug connection when he lived on Rambler and knew the person that moved in after he moved to Savannah Court and this person continued the drug activities? Because Mr. Franks was part of this homosexual community is it possible he also dealt with these same people and with this they would have known Kenneth and been willing to deal with him? HGG I know it’s a stretch and again I don’t believe Mr. Frueh had anything to do with nor had any knowledge of the murders.
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Bkl67. Reva was the youngest. I will pm yo?u.
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From blk167 post above: ” For junkies, crackheads and meth heads feigning for a fix but short on funds and looking for a easy target to knock off, the homosexual community fit the bill, real gay bashing. Is this plausible? Could a drug deal gone bad or a rip off or an unpaid debt among the homosexual community been the true cause behind the murders. I doubt it but I do believe it is worth looking into.”
The answer is yes. It happened all of the time and still happens now. Homophobia is real and it is lethal. That the gay community was involved in drug and dealing like many others in 82 is no surprise. That a man could be killed in a drug deal in Waco (Frueh) and the grand jury refuses to indict is beyond the pale. Grand juries almost always lead to indictment–they only hear the elements of the case that point to the need for an investigation. What happened to Frueh’s killer? Who is he? Why wasn’t there a trial?
Something else: I’ve heard from another gay source that the cops used members of the gay community as information sources regarding criminal activity. A sort of you scratch our backs, we will ignore your activities–both with drugs and sex.
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HGG, on that last part about the police using members of the gay community as informants is what I was putting forward about the guy that killed Robert Frueh. He would have been the perfect informant. You have this young guy that had been running drugs for a known homosexual, young guy kills homosexual after questionable encounter, In the police view do you throw away this young guy’s life, which would have been the case if they prosecute him or do you make a deal and use him for better purposes? He would have a lot of knowledge and know the places he went and even if he didn’t know names he still could point out people he had dealt with. Of coarse we will never be able to prove this unless someone decides to spill the beans, which I can’t see happening. But I see it as a strong possibility, more so that they just didn’t prosecute this guy because Frueh was gay. How do you explain that to the family and I have never seen where they complained. Again, I can see the police or D.A.’s office explaining to the family that Robert Frueh was involved in some questionable behavior and instead of having all that come out in court and gain sympathy for the killer and maybe a totally walk free card, we can do something else and sweep this under the rug, that works for multiple parties. HGG this is just my opinion of a scenario I could see playing out.
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Thanks for letting me be part of the conversation here–I realize my interest is a bit on the fringe.
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HGG, we are glad to have you, we need people to be part of the conversation. different viewpoints and thoughts that’s what this debate needs. That’s why this page was created, there are other pages out there but if you write something they disagree with they delete it, that’s not looking for the truth that is just trying to push your own agenda, doesn’t help anything. Have a place where people can say what they want, in doing so we find new information. In the two and a half years since I put up this page I have heard a number of things I never heard in the twenty plus years I had been following this case prior.
And I wouldn’t say you are on the fringe, there are many people that don’t believe Spence and the Melendez brothers were guilty and if that’s the case a case needs to be made against another party and that’s the rub. As I said before and I know you believe this also that Robert Frueh was not involved but because there are so many questions that remain names that came up back then have to be looked at again, even if it is only to discount that person. Anyway you look at it the original investigation was less than stellar, a lot of loose ends that should have been tied up a long time ago. Here is the way I see it Spence and company were guilty, the case against Spence was pretty strong. There wasn’t any physical evidence that could tie him to the crime but still at this time there isn’t any physical evidence that ties anyone to the crime. People can question this piece of evidence or that piece of evidence but for all the evidence they mention there is just as much they don’t mention that might tell a different story. Just an example, I know some one at one time asked me about the towel found on the front seat of Clifford Oliver’s car on the morning of July 14th, which is a good question but what about the two hairbrushes also found on his front seat that morning. Yes they could have just been his wife’s but were they ever checked? So there’s tons of stuff out there. Kenneth Franks and probably both Jill and Raylene knew a lot of people and had drug dealings with a lot of people but those two things are a huge leap to three kids being brutally raped and murdered. And that’s the thing, we can look at people like Robert Frueh or even a Terry “Tab” Harper that Kenneth knew and probably had some drug dealings with but where’s the trigger that caused this horrendous mayhem, that has never been found in connection with any of the other names we hear, Frueh, Harper, James Russell Bishop, the father, it’s just not there. There is the chance of the unknown, that unknown assailant we have never heard about but I doubt this because there are just to many signs that at least one of the victims knew the killers. Like it or not we get this with David Spence and Muneer Deeb.
Spence was a drinker and druggie, he hung out at the lake, he had met the girls from the Home partying at the lake. When Spence’s girlfriend started working at Deeb’s store David started hanging out there, it was across the street from the Methodist Home and the girls started coming in the store, they knew David and knew he was somebody that could and would buy them beer or could get them weed. Deeb noticed this and started to think hey it was his store he could provide these girls with beer and weed and he could become friends with them and then maybe he could get one to marry him so he could stay in the country, he had been trying this for sometime without any luck. Along comes Gayle Kelly and she uses Deeb, no more than any other girl had, but Deeb starts to pursue her more than the other girls, not counting Kabenna Reed. Problems arise, still some questions on that, Deeb’s finances aren’t doing the best. Deeb turns to David, they try to crash Deeb’s car for insurance, that doesn’t work, Deeb has already had a falling out with Gayle, so why not try to get the insurance money on her. David says he could find some one and whom does David turn to? This is why I think the ride David, Gilbert, Anthony and Christine took to Speegleville Park is so important. Gibert had been in prison and David knew this and knew why, Gilbert had been sent to prison for attempted murder for shooting some one. Hey why couldn’t David and Gilbert do the same thing, take Gayle and Kenneth to some isolated spot and just shoot them. The plan didn’t work out that way but that David and Gilbert went to the area in Speegleville Park where the bodies would be discovered tells me either this was their plan or they knew about the area and when the crime went down they thought to go back to that area. There are still questions but where do we even come this close to being able to make a stronger case against anyone? I will keep looking but I don’t think it is there, I think the answers lay with the people that were with David at some point that night; Clifford Oliver, John Arnett Jr., Todd Childers, Cal Frazier and even Christine Juhl,. Again just my opinion.
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HGG. last week we were talking about Kenneth Franks owing people money and the amount. All I could find at the time is what Kenneth Adkisson said. I read the police reports again this weekend and I did find another story. July 28th a Joe Quintanilla informs police he was talking to a friend, who he didn’t want to name, and this friend told him that a Frank from Bellmead and 4 other subjects had committed the murders. Frank and his four associates went to Koehne Park to collect the more than $3000 that Kenneth owed them over dope. Frank drove Kenneth and the two girls to Speegleville Park. Frank and Kenneth got into a fight, during this struggle Frank pulled out a knife and stabbed Kenneth to death. Frank’s 4 associates took the girls and raped and killed them. That was his story, I would point out a couple big problems with this story, at best it’s third hand and Joe won’t even give the police the name of the friend that told him this story and when Kenneth’s body was discovered there were no signs of a struggle which you would expect if he had gotten into a fight. And this story wouldn’t explain the shallow stab wounds both Jill and Kenneth had that were inflicted to cause pain, not to kill.
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I need to make a couple corrections on a couple things I posted earlier, I know I always complain when people put things out there that aren’t true, I know it happens there is just so much information it’s easy to get it confused, so it’s not putting something out there that you have confused it’s not correcting it once you have found it is not true and letting it remain out there so others take it as the truth. Practice what we preach.
Last week I posted Clarence Pierce told the police he stopped to help two guys in a blue Datsun but did not state if it was a pick-up. He did know the model of the Datsun which he stated was a b210 which is not a pick-up.
I also posted Raylene cashed a check for about $200 at the Piggly Wiggly. In the report the cashier, Joyce Breiten, remembered both girls cashing checks and that Raylene did cash a payroll check but she could not recall the amount.
There were probably others but that’s all I can think of at the moment, if some one sees something they feel is not accurate please let me know so it can be corrected.
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Mrs. Thompson last week you mentioned about the physic saying something about a nail in a big tree, well there is something in the reports about a big tree with a nail or two nails in it. As usual with this case there is something missing, apparently Officer or Detective Melissa Sims got some information from the Franks family that they knew a subject that camped out at Speegleville Park in the area the kids bodies were discovered and that this person did some kind of Indian rituals, that’s how it’s written. Sims went and checked this out and found this tree and there was all kind of stuff there, the problem; we don’t see her report. But she did call this in and asked for someone to come out and take pictures. This is what we get to see; Special Investigator King goes to the scene and takes pictures and he list the pictures he takes, he took 26 pictures. Picture #3 he list as shoe hanging in tree; #4 nail and markings next to shoe; #5 second nail on tree. There were a few things I thought were interesting in the list; #8 holes in the tree and #9 close ups of holes in the tree. There was rope, wire, a coat hanger and green shoe strings hanging in the tree. There was writing on the tree Kings states it looks like chalk, it was the usual vulgar graffiti , there were two things written on the tree, not quoting but one said for a good time and gave an address but King doesn’t write the address. There were a few other items, panties with the crotch tore out, a bottle of sun tan lotion, a handkerchief, a wash cloth, a lighter and a pair of glasses. The glasses stood out because I had just read the report when Salinas talked to Mr. Rice and Mr. Rice says Raylene usually wore contact lenses but she had just gotten a new pair of glasses that hadn’t been found. His description didn’t really match the glasses that were found. He said the glasses Raylene had just bought had tinted thick lenses, the glasses found by this tree had clear lenses. Then pictures 23 and 24: stained leaves at the base of the tree. The only thing King says about this is in his summary he list the items he is collecting and putting in bags to take back to the station, he says leaves and sticks with some substances splattered on them. Kings states when he arrived he wasn’t sure where the bodies were discovered so it was only his estimate that it was approximately 50 yards where the bodies were discovered. Since we don’t have Sims report this is all we get.
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Brian you’ve been busy. You should write the book it would be easier to read.
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Vero can’t do that without the facts, that’s what Dannen tried to do, he thought he had it all figured out. Then he made promises to people that he couldn’t keep, got their hopes up and then couldn’t prove his theory and now he’s hiding out in Mexico. I don’t want to live in Mexico and I can’t play the piano.
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Maybe you could contact Mr. Dannen and you guys could share information, that would be interesting.
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Vero I like to keep things positive, so all I can say is he is more than welcome to come on here and share his thoughts, feelings and views.
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Bkl67. On subject of the girls cashing their checks~~~~there was a questionable $$ amount put into Jill’s account at the Methodist Home.
Noone was ever able to say where it came from. I am thinking it was in the $200.00 range. Do you recall this?
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I remember we talked about this before, I had asked about when the Waco police talked to Jill’s mother she told them that Jill’s checkbook wasn’t matching up and I asked you if that was ever figured out. I can find our old conversation. And there was the check that Jill supposedly cashed at Safeway that was for about $200, the manager personally knew Jill’s mother and Jill and was positive that it was Jill that came in and cashed the check. No one seemed to know where that check came from.
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Mrs. Thompson I wonder, could Jill have been saving up her checks from Fort Fisher while she was still at the Methodist Home? She probably didn’t need much money at that time, try to save as much as possible for when she returned home?
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Brian, the idea that Jill was trying to save $$ is a possibility, however it would be out of character for her. She, like most 17 year old girls, wasn’t ‘good’ at saving.
You are correct, we have discussed this earlier. I do recall it now. Thanks for jogging my memory.
Now the subject of the physic/tree :
Do you know if this story would have been public knowledge in early ’83 ?
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Mrs. Thompson I can’t be 100% positive but I really doubt if this would have been public information at that time. But we don’t know the whole story, we don’t have Sims report, King states Sims had gotten this information for the Franks family, whom did this consist of, where and how did they hear about it and how many other people could they have told about this, too many variables to be certain of anything.
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I received more files on Robert Frueh from the Waco Police, these records are totally unreadable, if anyone has any idea what I can do about that please let me know. I can’t say what these reports say I do see something about an 11 year old boy, mention of a towel and some blood somewhere, I see Russ Hunt’s name and apparently in 1989 Frueh had his car and phone stolen, I’m just picking out words I can’t make out any sentences.
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Bkl67. I am not understanding why they send out illegible reports. What good is being able to get public info if it can’t be read ?
Were charges actually filed against Frueh in the case of the 11 year old boy, or can you tell?
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I can go to Waco PD and look for this record–Maybe I can see the original instead of a copy of a copy.
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HGG, it’s my understanding they didn’t keep the original records. The old records, I was told anything before 2004 were put on micro film and the original records were discarded. I talked to a couple people that worked in the records department and one person actually went to the police station and talked to Sargent Price, they really tried to track down this information for me. They had to send my request to the city attorney to see what could be released and I was told I was given everything they had in reference to Robert Frueh, with redactions. There was one thing I couldn’t get any information on. Back in November 1982 they pulled a photo of Robert Frueh from a file to show Deanna Storts. That would tell me the Waco Police had a file on Mr. Frueh at that time so he must have been arrested by the Waco PD prior to that time, my thinking was it was probably a mugshot so I asked about this but nothing could be found. Here is the response I got, well we talked on the phone first and then I got this response;
Chris Charanza
Police Department
On 6/18/2018 3:14:59 PM, City of Waco City Secretary’s Office wrote:
Brian
After speaking with Sgt. Price I was advised that if the photograph would’ve been related to something involving another case it would’ve had the case number on it. Sgt. Price thinks that it might have either been an arrest number or a booking number and unfortunately I do not have a way to look up either of those from that time period. As per our conversation I will be closing this request out as no responsive records.
Thank You
Chris Charanza
Open Records
Waco Police Department
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Mrs. Thompson, I can’t see if Robert Frueh was charged with anything or even if he was a suspect for something or a victim, literally all I can see are a few words here and there. When I talked to the person from Waco’s record department he told me old files like this were transferred to microfilm and then they make copies from the microfilm. hence the poor quality. I’ve asked is there another way I can view the records, waiting for a reply. Here are the files they sent me, maybe you can make more out of it than I have been able to do.
https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/c5a2d496-2368-40d6-9a40-0469ce666f39
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Mrs. Thompson, you know my computer skills are minimal and that’s being very kind to myself but as they sat ignorance is bliss. I was just trying to copy the records and when I shaded over them they became legible, I still can’t copy them for some reason but I can read most of it. Again if anyone could help me, I need all I can get. I will just give an overview for now, I can type out the whole report but I type about as fast as a sloth stuck in molasses.
First I would point out the records I received deal with a couple incidents that took place in 1989, well after the Lake Waco Murders, I didn’t receive any records dealing with the Lake Waco Murders or anything that might have happened prior. So I still don’t know why the Waco Police already had a file on Robert Frueh when they pulled his photo to ask Deanna Storts if this was the man she saw. I will send another request to see if I can get anything on that.
The first incident occurred in March 1989,the police received a call about a possible disturbance or suspicious activity occurring at 2934 Savannah Court. A cleaning crew had seen a large quantity of blood on the driveway and walkway leading up to the apartment. Dispatch informed the officers that the police had been called to that residence the day before, March 11, 1989, however no report was made for that incident. I have to add in all these reports, there are 8 pages, there is a reporting officer and then the report is typed up by another person, I guess the Waco Police learned their mistake with the terrible reports their officers typed during the Lake Waco Murders investigation and they decided to find other people to type their reports for them, on this report the reporting officer was Gissel and it was typed by Edwards. As the two responding officers Anderson and Gissel approach they notice the front door and garage door are wide open and cleaning hoses from the cleaning van into the residence, the cleaning crew was already cleaning up the blood. The officers note a large quantity of blood leading from the street up the driveway by a red Cadillac convertible that was parked in the garage, to the left of the car was a trail of blood with footprints in it that led into the apartment. The officers got permission to enter the apartment to further investigate by the lady in charge of the cleaning crew. What appeared to be blood could be seen on carpet as officers entered apartment, this trailed to the stairway as they entered the living room, officers state they can see the carpet had already been shampooed and were told by cleaning crew that they had just finished the downstairs. Officers go up stairway, blood is present in the stairway and leads to a bedroom, Officers enter the room the blood trail goes to the bed, then from the bed to a closet, there is a large TV next to the closet, officers open closet and find a VCR and Cablevision box on top shelf. Blood is noted on VCR on the power and eject button, officer states it appears whoever was bleeding it looked to officer that that person stood there for a few seconds doing some type of work. From the closet the blood trail led to a coffee table where there was another large quantity of blood seen by the telephone, then the trail exited the room, paused momentarily by another closet which the officers found to be locked, there was blood on the door knob. Officers jimmy open the door with a buck knife, dry blood was found on the inside knob. This was a small closet about 2 and 1/2 feet in length, officers found two bags of what appeared to be marijuana and two video tapes, the two tapes had dried blood on them. Title of one tape was “Stud Hunter”, other tape did not have any identification on it. Officer states it looks as if the victim had shut and locked the door after victim had been stabbed or cut, the door could be locked from inside. There was also a large towel hanging in the closet, the officer pulls it down and finds several video tapes on a shelf that was behind the towel.
The officer explains why it was decided to break into this closet, the day before a 11 year old boy from the area had gone missing officers thought the incidents could be related.This 11 year old’s name is given in this report, I would say that would add more questions why the name of the guy that killed Frueh was redacted in that report, doesn’t look like it was because he was a minor. Anyway officers decide to look at the video tape they found that had dried blood on it but didn’t have any identification on it to see if possibly the incident that had occurred was filmed, they found that the tape was just another pornographic film. Officer does not take tapes as evidence because he doesn’t feel they are connected to the incident. He does take several photos. There is somethings missing at this point, report states; “Officer Anderson took control of the —————— which I believe to be————-“. It is stated earlier in the report that Anderson took control of the two bags that they believed to be marijuana, so I don’t know why it is not visible or redacted here. That is the report of the original responding officers, that was 2 of the 8 pages sent to me. For some reason the reports were not sent to me in chronological order, so I will be skipping page 3 and move to page 4.
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This is Officer Anderson’s report of the same events described on the previous report I just summarized. Anderson is the reporting officer and the report was typed by Bailey. In this report Anderson states as he and Gissel were checking the upstairs where the assault occurred officer Beatty arrived and told them that he had talked to Robert Frueh at the Hillcrest Hospital. Frueh told Beatty that he(Frueh) had picked up a white male about 16 years of age around the Lake Air Mall on Wooded Acres. Just thought I would add James “Blinky” Lucas lived on Wooded Acres. Mr. Frueh took this subject to his home and once at his residence the white male he had picked up assaulted him by cutting him on the right side of the neck. Frueh would not tell Beatty why he took this subject to his apartment and would not provide anymore information. With Frueh not giving anymore information and that he was being somewhat uncooperative the officers believed there was more to the story than Mr. Frueh was telling them.
Anderson states Beatty told them about the missing 11 year old boy. That the upstairs closet was the only locked door in the appointment and it was obvious this door had been opened after the assault because there was blood all over the door and handle and because of the large amount of blood present at the scene the officers felt that it was possible that someone other than Mr. Frueh had been cut and that there could be a body in the closet and that was the reason they broke into the closet. This report ends with Anderson repeating the same thing Gissel stated in the prior report about finding two bags with what they believed to be marijuana and that Anderson tagged these bags and they were placed in the city property room drug box. So at this point it looks like Gissel, Anderson and Beatty all agree, there was an assault, Mr. Frueh was the victim but there could be some questionable circumstances that Mr. Frueh would talk about. Now enters one of my favorite officers from the Waco Police department and we know how this investigation will end.
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The next report doesn’t really tell us much, it is just one small paragraph but it does bring in Detect Ramon Salinas into the case, we all know I’m a big fan of some of Salinas’ earlier work and we more of the same here but at least we do have some one else typing his reports; Bailey, I take it that this is the same Bailey that typed up Anderson’s report, small steps. All this report states is after further reviewing this case Robert Frueh was being charged, The case this report details is an aggravated assault but ti doesn’t say what Robert Frueh is being charged with, it does say ——– was filed against Robert Frueh and the ———— was taken from the property room and tagged and will be held as evidence until needed in this case. Since the ——- was in Mr. Frueh’s bedroom closet and it seems had control and he was charged with —————.. Detective Salinas got the warrant Mr. Frueh. That’s all on this report, the date on this report was 4/3/89 so about two weeks after the initial reports. Looks like this case is going in the right direction but don’t forget who we are talking about and pigs still don’t fly.
The next report is dated 4/25/89, reporting officer: Salinas, typed by: Frayer. Report states after Frueh was released from hospital Salinas made contact with him, Frueh had nothing to say and told Salinas if he needed he could contact his (Frueh’s) attorney Russ Hunt. Salinas contacted Hunt and Hunt informed Salinas that he still was trying to figure out what had happened and that he had obtained some of the photos from the cleaning crew that Salinas had requested earlier, Hunt also informed Salinas that per his clients wishes they did not wish to pursue the matter with police action. Salinas got statement from the ambulance attendants. And then Salinas states since they don’t know who cut Frueh and Frueh is being a hostile witness and they probably will never know who this person was the case is suspended. Yep, just like the Lake Waco Murders, what, did Salinas think suspending cases gave him job security? Having all these unsolved cases they couldn’t fire him no matter how much he sucked as a detective. For some reason I received two copies of this report.
The last two reports deal with a cellular phone handset that was stolen out of Robert Frueh’s car. The first report states the Frueh had called the police to report this thief on !1/30/89. There was no sign of force entry into the vehicle and Frueh stated the vehicle was locked, there was no evidence and there weren’t any suspects, the serial number of the headset was put in the computer system. case suspend, well this time it wasn’t Salinas. The second report states on 12/11 the stolen handset was recovered, Mr. Frueh was contacted and told where his property was and at that time Mr. Frueh filed and signed a complaint to prosecute, the handset was tagged and placed in the property room. That’s the end of the reports I received
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Hi Brian, If you look closely at pg 4, you can see that the age of the man Robert picked up is listed as 35, not 16–the number is a bit blurred, so could be 25 or 75 (I’m thinking not), but not 16. Of course this is what Robert told police–so it may not be true–but the report does not list the age as 16…unless I’m missing something??? And I may be.
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HGG, my mistake, thank you for the correction.
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OK with all that there are a few more questions. I will start with; this happened after the Lake Waco Murders, I feel pretty safe stating the police were at least aware of the behavior Robert Frueh was rumored to participate in by the time of these incidents but we still don’t know what they knew when his name came up during their investigation into the Lake Waco Murders, I haven’t been able to get those records but it does seem strange to me that whatever Frueh was into it apparently was turning violent at least early in 1989 and he would be killed only two years later, the police couldn’t have done more about this and if that was the state of affairs in 1989 could the same be said of 1982?
I didn’t mention the name of the 11 year old missing boy before but I wonder has anyone heard about this before or know the fate of this boy was he ever found? His name was either Mixa or Mika Hill and he went missing on March 11, 1989, the report says he was from the west Waco area, I don’t know what area of Waco is considered west Waco, I hope one of our readers from Waco can educate me on this. I guess Savannah Court would be considered west Waco?
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Hi Brian–just getting back on and trying to catch up! Fascinating stuff and fyi…having known Robert, I would say he was not a violent person. But hey, I’m working through my experience of him and my own filter. I hope to get to Waco in the next few weeks to talk to WPD and try to get info on Robert.
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Another teenage boy and now a 11 year old boy the crap around Robert Frueh is getting deeper and thicker. Brian do you think Robert Frueh had anything to do with the 11 year old boy?
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Vero I don’t know anything about this missing 11 year old boy, it’s the first I’ve ever heard about it. But I don’t want to get into this thing where we start to blame Mr. Frueh for something based purely on some of his other documented incidents. There is no doubt Robert Frueh was involved in some extremely inappropriate behavior and criminal behavior at that but that doesn’t necessarily connect him to the Lake Waco Murders. To be fair from the reports I have read Robert Frueh was the victim of violent reactions, reactions brought on because of his own inappropriate behavior but still he’s the one getting beat up and stabbed. At this point I would question if Robert Frueh was a violent person? He was a sexual predator but it also looks like he might have targeted victims he thought he could control physically and even at that it doesn’t look like that was really working out for him.. Hey I don’t want to sound like I’m offering unworthy sympathy for Robert Frueh but we have to be honest in our evaluation of his actions and the person behind those actions.
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Brian, I guess you haven’t got on Ramon Salinas in awhile and you were due but man that was harsh. I thought you liked cops?
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CC I do respect police officers very much but at some point you have to question how this investigation was run and Ramon Salinas was behind most of it. I admit he had superiors whose job it was to keep things straight so they also deserve some blame bit it’s Salinas’ name that’s all over it. A few examples.
. The information Lisa Kader gave on July 19th that Deeb had killed Kenneth because of Gayle Kelly was never checked out or followed up.
Gene Deal, David Spence’s parole officer, called and talked to Salinas and told him that David might have information about the murders, again Salinas ignored this and didn’t bother to check this out.
Salinas decided to believe Rusty Escott over Rebecca DeMarias. After weeks of running down this rumor started by Rusty and being told Rusty couldn’t be trusted and bringing in Rusty where he admitted he lied did Salinas finally realize he had been wrong.
In an investigation you try to talk to people that are close to the victims, this would include roommates, Salinas didn’t even find out who was Jill’s roommate until November.
How many times in the reports do we see the officers state they have been unable to make contact with this person or that person, that’s understandable is some cases but what about with the girls that lived at the Methodist Home. Two that come to mind right off were Tandra Samples that was a close friend to Jill and Laura Madderax supposedly the last girl Kenneth dated while he was at the Home. All that had to be done to find these girls was to call the Home and tell whomever that they wanted to talk to this girl or that girl but they didn’t, all we get is we haven’t been able to make contact. When the San Diego police called to ask for information on James Russell Bishop, Salinas could fly out to California to check out this guy even though there was nothing at all that connected him to this case but he couldn’t check out information and leads he was getting in Waco that were making connections or couldn’t pick up the phone and call someone to contact or talk to them. CC at some point it gets ridiculous.
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Bkl67. Must put in my 2 cents here. Is it a Texas thing when City law enforcement, District Attorney Office, and Sheriff ‘s Office battle each other rather than working together to keep a case (triple murders) open and solving the crime?? Is it always a game of (who is the hero rather than working together to solve the crime. I was lied to by law enforcement and by “persons of interest ” .
I did not know who to believe, thus, a search for the truth began for me many years ago.
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Mrs. Thompson sorry it has taken awhile to reply to you on this, been trying to work on some other things, but here is my opinion on this.
I don’t think it is just a Texas thing, look at the Jonbenet Ramsey case, the D.A.’s office and police department disagreed greatly in that case and see how that ended. More recently we had the Trayvon Martin case, again the D.A.’s office and local law enforcement disagreed and police officers got on the stand and destroyed the D.A.’s case. Much like what happened in the Juanita White case when 15 or 16 officers opposed the D.A.’s story. So I don’t think it is just a Texas thing and again just my opinion, there is something else that stands out in the Lake Waco Murders case. I can understand officers not agreeing or even getting along, which surely looks to be the case here but to have the amount of animosity between officers in a department, enough so to cause officers to intentionally work against each other I just can’t understand, that’s why there is a chain of command and why police officers have superiors.
I know I have said this before but if you took the police reports from the investigation of the Lake Waco Murders from the beginning of the investigation until it was suspended on September 3rd, which was less than two months and gave it to any number of detectives from anywhere or cold case detectives that didn’t know anything about the case and asked them to review the case and ask them if there was anything they think they could have done and if so what would it have been, the unanimous response would have been they would have gone back and followed up or checked out information the original detectives had failed to do. That’s exactly what Truman Simons and Dennis Baier did. I’m not saying police work is easy but this wasn’t rocket science. And once Simons and Baier came up with a strong lead, one that was already in the reports if the original investigators had decided to check out, why wasn’t there more cooperation? Instead it was more like we want to prove you wrong, again that’s why there are superiors, so a lot of the blame has to placed on Lt. Horton he was the ranking officer. And don’t forget it was Horton that allowed the case to be suspended without taking it up with his superiors, Captain January and Chief Scott and I think that was part of the problem when Simons decided to go over Horton’s head and went to the Chief. Anyway it became an inhospitable work environment, one not inducive to closing cases. Mrs. Thompson unfortunately I think particularly in this case there was a weak link in the chain of command; Lt. Horton. There are a couple other things we can point to that would further argue this. One you know very well.
You cannot blame officers for not pursuing information they never received and we have this in this case. As with many high profile cases or cases that are not easily solved there is always a lot of white noise, people calling in with info, leads, rumors and lies. It was no different with this case, in fact the volume was so great that a crime stoppers hot line was set up to help with all the calls. Anytime you add another line and layer of communication the better the chances information can get lost and there was a problem with this early on with the Lake Waco Murders case. We know this because in the reports we read the officers working the case held a meeting on the morning of Monday July 19th, 5 days after the murders. The purpose of this meeting was to share information and to make sure the information that had come in at that time was being properly disseminated to the people that needed it, that would show they were aware of that problem by then and were trying to address it, this would have been the responsibility of the ranking officer; Lt. Horton and it also would have been his responsibility to make sure this problem didn’t persist but we see it did. Mrs. Thompson you know better than anyone the story of Deanna Storts, she called a few days after the murders, Sargent Holstein called her back but Deanna didn’t have the information she was told she needed so this return call from Holstein didn’t do much. A couple weeks later, which would have been late July, Deanna called backed but then she didn’t hear from the Waco Police until November. Salinas states he didn’t know about the first call and apparently he didn’t know or he decided out to check out the second call before the case was suspended, obviously the problem of sharing information still persisted, again this falls into the lap of Lt. Horton.
The other time I see where Lt. Horton failed to do at least the proper thing was with his interview with Clifford Oliver a few days after the murders. Horton never mentions this in his report, the only way we hear about it is during the Grand Jury and since then I have asked Clifford about it, he changed his story a couple times. Even if Clifford didn’t tell Horton anything he (Horton) believed had any connection to the murders or Clifford was being uncooperative he should have put in his report that he had interviewed Clifford and what Clifford did say. That way when Clifford’s name did come up later, when Christine Juhl told Truman Simons if they were looking at David Spence they should also look at Clifford Oliver because they were together that night, the officers could see what Clifford had said or failed to say and found that he was lying which would have been a red flag. Not that red flags prove guilt, Bobby Brem acted like he didn’t know Jill Montgomery when he was first questioned by the police but they found out not only did Bobby know her but Jill had stayed at his house when she ran away and Bobby had wanted to date her, huge red flag but in the end it didn’t mean anything. Horton should have put his interview with Clifford Oliver in his report. Mrs. Thompson when I look at this case I see a trickle down effect; Horton’s less than impressive leadership trickled down to Detective Salinas being overwhelmed with such a complex case trickled down to Nicoletti who appears to have been promoted to detective during the investigation, eager and hard working but hadn’t picked up the experience, intuition and nuances of a veteran detective and didn’t get much guidance from those around and above him. People may hate Truman Simons but he did keep the case open when all others had given up and he should be given credit for that, there are literally thousands of cases across the country that were suspended and they sit on selves unsolved.
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Brian, does everything always have to go back to Clifford Oliver?
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CC that’s where I would put my money. If only I could get more people on board that ship maybe we could get somewhere.
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Brian how would getting more people to believe your theory help anything get anywhere?
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Vero it is all about getting the information out there and keeping it in the public eye and mind. Take the Tab Harper story and many people still believe it. You can still find any number of articles or site that will state that Tab Harper was seen by anywhere from 6 to dozens of people at Koehne Park the evening of July 13, 1982. This is just not true, people keep repeating it and it becomes the perception that it is true, perception is stronger than truth. Most people aren’t going to take the time and try to read all the police reports, they are going to read an article or two some one else has written and take it as the truth. And see where that gets us even to this day. Anyone can bend the facts or just tell lies and it can become the truth to the masses.
Now with Clifford Oliver there is very little out there about him, I would say other than this site you don’t read much about Clifford Oliver, I would wager other than the people that read this page very few people have heard about Josie Scionti or know her story. If we could change the perception, people would start to ask different questions. And with Clifford Oliver we wouldn’t have to bend the facts, I’m not saying we know the exact facts but there is clearly enough to question. Stories don’t match or add up, some one is mixed up or lying. And it’s not just Clifford Oliver, it’s anybody that was with him; John Arnett Jr., Todd Childers, Cal Frazier, maybe the Gutierrez brothers, Josie Scionti, her sister Diana and her ex-husband Harold Windham. You put out their stories, question their stories you are going to come out with a completely different view on things. You are going to hear things you never heard during the trials, read things you never saw in the reports, now if we could only get that information to more people it would spread and gain more attention. That’s what happened with Tab Harper, there were people out there pushing that story the more it spread the more people believed it was true. We could change that with the story of Clifford Oliver and friends.
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Last week I received the response from Waco for a few of my request. With my request on Robert Frueh there was some legal issue, when I called to ask about this I was told maybe I should narrow the scope of my request, so I have sent a new request hopefully I will get better results with the new request. I shared the records I did get but they were totally unreadable, so I write asking if it was possible to get better copies. I haven’t gotten a response on this. One thing I did get last week was an explanation why Texas couldn’t release some of the information I asked for, unlike the records they sent me this was very clear, I can post that just so people can understand Texas law regarding freedom of information.
Also I sent request for more information on James Lucas and Ralph Finstad but I didn’t have much to go on, I didn’t have their dates of birth, I tried just using their addresses of the time. Waco responded they didn’t have any records on Lucas and Finstad at these addresses, funny thing is they had already sent me the records regarding the Payne brothers that gave these addresses and also Lucas and Finstad are in the Lake Waco reports. Maybe Waco is getting tired of all my request, imagine that some one getting tired of all the questions I ask. So I’m still working on that, I’m going to try to go by Lucas’ vehicle registration for the Datsun, see if I can track down any information that way.
I doubt if this has anything to do with the Lake Waco Murders and I don’t like to get to far off track, each case has to stand on it’s own merits but when I read about the missing boy last week I wondered what happened with that case, so I sent a request seeing what I could get on that case.
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Found birth and Death of Ralph Finstad; birth 1/30/32 – death 5/13/01, now that I have his DOB I can get some information.
Things are a little more difficult with James Lucas, that is a very popular name, especially in Texas. Did find one that was very troubling but actually his name was Darvin James Lucas, he was arrested in 1995 for sexually abusing his three kids. His 11 year old son had sexually abused a 3 year old. The abuse occurred in Kingsland, Burnet County. His appeal was held in Waco, that’s how I came across it. His birth date is 1/23/61 which would have made him 21 back in 82, if this is the James Lucas I’m looking for he would be Ralph Finstad’s nephew, Finstad would have been 50 in 82. Long shot but I’m checking it out.
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Well I have hit a brick wall on getting anymore records from the Waco Police, I have been told they have given me everything they have on Robert Frueh and they don’t have anything in the Waco Police records on James Lucas and Ralph Finstad for the years I asked and I can’t ask for just a criminal history I have to be more specific nor are there any records on a missing person Mika or Mixa Hill. There could be any number of reasons for this; old records that were purged, some one asked to have the records expunged either way I not getting anywhere with it and doesn’t look like I can. So of coarse we are left with questions. I guess it’s time to get back on the trail of Clifford Oliver and company, I still believe that’s the best path to the truth.
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bkl167–you have done an amazing amount of digging. I am going to follow up if possible with people who might know additional info and will let you know what I learn.
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HGG, I know I asked you this before but I didn’t get a reply; Did you you Robert Frueh’s family?
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Blk167 Not sure what you are asking re Robert’s family. I did not know them. I know who they are and hv tried to contact. They won’t respond.
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HGG, if I’m not mistaken you knew Robert Frueh before his time in Waco or at least before the stories we hear about, I thought if you knew him there might be a chance you would have known his family and you might be able to talk to them, which you have already done. The report mentions his brother, seems he might have handled some of Robert’s affairs after his passing. I would think if anyone would know the reason Robert’s homicide wasn’t prosecuted he would know, I can’t see the family, no matter the circumstances, just letting that go without a good explanation and if they didn’t get one why not stir things up? I could be wrong but as you have said you have tried. I apologize for pushing.
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36 years ago today and still so many questions.
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Nothing new?
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Vero, Unfortunately no. I keep trying to talk to people and find information but we have to keep in mind I’m trying to get information from people that have lived with these secrets or lies, depending on how you want to look at it, for 36 years and have become comfortable with it. Stirring things up answering my questions probably doesn’t look like a promising proposition. Hey it really doesn’t matter what any of us do, without any concrete information or evidence we don’t have anything and “they” know this as long as they don’t talk and give it up there is little to nothing that can be done against them. What we need is for some one to have a crisis of conscience and see the value in the truth.
If I could do one thing I would collect DNA from 9 people, Clifford Oliver, Todd Childers, Cal Frazier, John Arnett Jr., Josie Scionti, Diana Scionti, Harold Windham, James Gutierrez and Terry Gutierrez.
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James Gutierrez and Terry Gutierrez? Why Josie Scionti I thought she was a witness?
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Vero, there is some question about the whereabouts of the Gutierrez brothers the night of the murders. they were regulars at Pinocchio’s, they might have had a conflict with Kenneth Franks over their car, that car disappeared, They were involved with Clifford Oliver in the insurance scam and Terry took off to California with Clifford. I can’t put them with Clifford and his friends that night, apparently they never went to Pinocchio’s that night as Clifford testifies that’s where he met up with Cal, Todd and John but I have never seen where anybody as stated they saw those guys there that night either. Hey it could be a long shot but I just wouldn’t discount it, there were longer stretches with others that had their DNA collected.
On Josie, she knew where the murders occurred, she stated Clifford Oliver told her this but again you can’t discount maybe the reason she knew where the murders occurred was because she was there and called the crime stoppers in attempt to draw attention to others and clear her name. And she had her sister and brother in-law to support her story. Her brother in-law; Harold Windham is another shady character, I think he’s still sitting in prison now.
Vero, when you’re investigating a case, you start with the people closest to the victims and work outward, it’s the same thing with DNA evidence, you start with a suspect or a pool of suspects if you don’t get a hit with any of those you expand your pool. Now you just can’t go after everybody you have to have cause but I think with the 9 people I mentioned there is reasonable cause. I would say we just need hair samples. I know there is some talk about the fingernail clippings but I would doubt getting any results on those. For one this is something the M.E. could have determined, that is if skin was under the fingernails. If you read her testimony she repeats the phrase “I didn’t make note of that”, that means she didn’t see or notice something, that she doesn’t make note of seeing skin under the nails would lead me to think she didn’t detect any, yes she could have missed it, either other substance was under the nails or it was such a small amount it couldn’t be seen. Secondly, how long does it take for skin particles to decay to dust, 36 years sounds like a very long time to me.
And we also have to keep in mind there is still a major problem even with the hairs found in the bindings, we still can’t undisputedly determine the origin of the shoestrings and towels that were used as bindings. Without that the pool of possibilities is countless, my pool of 9 could just as well be 900 or 9,000 and with that a name we have never heard.
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B, you said the car disappeared, info please.
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During the investigation one of the employees at Pinocchio’s stated Kenneth was suppose to buy the brothers’ car but apparently there was some fall out. When Mr. Franks was asked about this he stated he didn’t know anything about Kenneth buying a car but a car had been brought to their home and he had taken video of the car, I don’t know if the police ever saw this video, so I really don’t know if it was the Gutierrez brothers’ car, Mr. Franks said the boy that brought the car over to the house was a white boynot Hispanic, so I don’t know. When the police asked James about this car, Terry had already gone to California with Clifford, James told the police the car had been wrecked and the brothers got rid of it. The reporting officer, I will have to check on what officer it was, wrote in his report he could never find any report of the car being in an accident, so whom really knows what happened. I would point out the Gutierrez brothers did have access to a truck at the time and this was the vehicle they were using around the end of July, if i’m not mistaken it was a brown truck with a gold or orange stripe. For those interested in car fibers I wonder what the color combination would be for the interior of that truck?
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blk167 Regarding Robert’s family no apologies necessary. BTW—His gravestone has a quote from the New Testament—“No greater love has a man than this, that he lays down his life for a friend.”
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bkl67, do you have any thoughts on the Kinder brothers?
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stephiessite, my first thought is if you go down rabbit holes dug by Fred Dannen all you find are dead ends and you will probably find yourself just like Dannen, if you’re lucky you find a beach somewhere in Mexico where you can play your harmonica to collect pesos so you can afford a couple tacos and tequilas at the end of the day. To be fair for those that believe there is a drug connection to the murders, which I agree with to to some extent, we should put things in proper context.
The first time one of the Kinder brothers popped up on the radar, at least for those interested and looking for some connection with the Lake Waco Murders, was a bar fight, well it actually occurred in the parking lot on the night of November 14, 1984. This altercation took place outside the Okey Dokey Nite Club, a familiar venue in Waco for those following the case. The Okey Dokey was running a special, like the endless mug or endless pitcher, you pay a cover fee and can drink beer all night, surely to draw all types and probably ended up being the demise of the Okey Dokey. On this night a group of young college friends decided to indulge in the beerfest, around midnight the party was over and this group of friends made their way to the parking lot where they ran into some of Waco’s more unsavory characters, words were exchanged and this led to a physical altercation. Larry Kinder appears to be the instigator that caused the escalation from words to violence, he threw the first punch and probably the second, third and so on, then some of the patrons stepped in trying to be peace makers and break it up but that just turns it into a melee. In steps John David Wilkins, he brandishes a knife and slashes one of the college kids on the arm and then stabs another one in the back. This kid that has been stabbed in the back stubbles back into the bar to get help and the police. By the time the police arrive the third kid that was with this group had been stabbed in the chest by Wilkins and lay in the parking lot dead.
Now the Wilkins name will be familiar with anyone following the case, the Wilkins were close associates of Terry “Tab” Harper. There were a few Wilkins, honestly I get them confused, but their names come up in few of Waco’s darkest events, I know one or two of the Wilkins were questioned about the murder of one Patrick Rock, I haven’t be able to find how that case panned out, anyway the Wilkins much like Harper had the reputation of trying to be the local bad asses and the Kinder brothers were part of this group, time to pull out the cliches; “birds of a feather flock together”. Wilkins was charged with murder and got a life sentence, I would imagine Kinder was charged with something since he was the instigator of the whole incident but whatever charge and punishment he received he was back on the street in a few years. Obviously, at this point the only connection to the Lake Waco Murders Kinder has is his association to Tab Harper, very weak to say the least. I have to point out this incident at the Okey Dokey occurred after David Spence’s first trial but before his second trial and Deeb’s first trial that was to begin in January 1985. Spence’s attorney during his first trial was Russ Hunt. Hunt truly believed in David’s innocence and fought hard for David, his case was very weak, his defense was to create doubt try to point to some one else has the culprit, most of us would understand with all that had been written about Terry “Tab” Harper by that time, that Harper would have been the target Hunt would have tried to gone after, he didn’t! The reason why; he knew it was a dead end. Hunt tried to connect Ronnie Breiten and James Russell Bishop to the murders, just trying to connect anybody other than his client but he didn’t try to go after Harper. Hunt would not represent Spence during his second trial and the two attorneys that did represent Spence weren’t as sold on David’s innocence, they were just there to be sure he got a fair trial, one of the attorneys, Vance, asked the judge if he could be removed as David’s attorney but the judge would not allow it. So we really can’t say these attorneys tried to dig deep to prove David was innocent, so the Okey Dokey incident and the connection to Harper some could question wasn’t properly questioned and David would make this an issue during his appeals. Spence tried to argue that the court was in error because his attorneys did not bring up during his trials information about Harper. The appellate court has handed down the same decision time after time, if anyone would like to read the decision I can copy it again, but for now I will just fling it. The court found that the court was not in error in upholding Spence’s constitutional right to a fair trial even though Spence was unhappy with his attorneys for not bringing up Terry “Tab” Harper. The courts found that even if Spence’s attorney did bring up Harper all the State had to do was call one of the detectives to the stand and point out that the reports that Harper was in Koehne Park and that the victims were seen with Harper and getting into his van they found was just a rumor, a rumor that came back to one source, a source that had a reputation for telling stories and not being honest and when this source was finally interrogated he admitted he had lied. That’s all that’s in the record, that’s the only thing that connected Harper to this crime. The defense never brought up anything about Harper during the trials was because they never found anything more than what was in the reports, a far cry from proving David’s innocence and Harper’s guilt. The sad thing today is this was a dead issue until Fred Dannen and Bernadette Feazell/Harry Storm have tried to bend the facts and truth and some how got traction trying to win this case in public opinion that doesn’t matter, usually the public doesn’t take the time to read all the facts, police reports, statements, court findings. So if we take Terry “Tab” Harper out of the equation should we still look into the Kinder brothers? We have to look at another incident that occurred a few years after the altercation at the Okey Dokey.
1990 Larry Kinder, whatever happened to him for his involvement in the deadly affair back in 1984 was back on the street, he and his brother David were caught up in a drug bust, apparently they tried to by some drugs from a undercover police officer, allegedly, and they pled guilty, the brothers were involved in drug trafficking, their drug of choice; Methamphetamine (speed), the same drug of choice as David Wayne Spence, the same drug Anthony Melendez stated he returned to Waco on July 13, 1982 looking for and the same drug Clifford Oliver and Todd Childers would testify they partook when they got up with David Spence that night. And I would add there was a rumor that Jill had mentioned she was meeting a new speed freak connection in Waco. On the other hand the Kinder brothers dealt with the powder form, people usually snort this type. During their appeals the brothers would argue this point, they only were dealing the powder not the liquid form, used by injection, there was an issue about the sentencing guidelines much like there is or was with powder cocaine; snorted and crack cocaine; smoked. David’s preferred use was the liquid injectable and that is what Oliver and Childers testified they did that night. Not saying they never used the powder form but if David was looking for the liquid the Kinder brothers were probably not his regular supplier. David not holding down a steady job and not having money I have no idea whom was his regular dealer. But could the Kinder brothers and Spence have a connection, sure druggies and drug dealers always have a way of finding each other. Could the Kinder brothers had some dealings or planned dealings with the victims of the Lake Waco Murders? That’s a harder question to answer, I have never seen any connection but that’s not saying there isn’t one, the Kinder brothers would match the idea of some one or some drug dealers that were never mentioned during the investigation but the connection has to be found.
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Brian, wow new stuff, never heard any of this before, really like.
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bkl67, why do you have to be such a smart ass I doubt if Fred Dannen is in Mexico scrounging for tacos and tequila.
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patsportal, I really don’t care what Fred Dannen is doing, what he needs to do and should do and would be the right thing to do is admit he was wrong he couldn’t put together his theory he just couldn’t find the facts to support his theory. There is nothing wrong with that and there is no shame in it, it is a very complex case and the passage of time hasn’t made it any easier to untangle the mess that remains. He made promises he couldn’t keep, there are people out there that pinned their hopes on the promises he didn’t and can’t deliver, he needs to hold himself accountable for that, he just can’t run off, go in hiding and not say a word to the people that put so much faith in him. All he has proven to me is he didn’t care about the truth, justice, Spence, the Melendez brothers, the victims, their families nor anyone else connected to this case that still live with the scars of this terrible tragedy, it was all about money for him.
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bkI67 you speak the truth concerning F Dannen. Thank you.
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Weird info regarding powder form meth vs liquid meth. Powder is turned to liquid via mixing with water and then is injected.
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bkl67, you stated Fred Dannen couldn’t prove his theory. You have a theory and I can’t see where you have been able to prove your’s. You make it clear you believe Clifford Oliver and Christine Juhl are involved but all you provide is conjecture and rumors.
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patsportal, yes I have a theory I haven’t been able to prove but I’m still working on it, I didn’t run off and go into hiding, I’m still hear searching, asking and taking questions, critiques and criticism. And yes I believe Clifford Oliver and the guys that were with him are involved in some way. I doubt if Christine Juhl was involved.
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bkl67, you doubt if Christine Juhl was involved, you’ve pretty much accused her of everything short of actually doing the stabbing.
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