Dm957……..I have been trying to “reconcile” all this for almost35 years. So far, I have not found what I can consider the true story. I will not say I think Frueh was one of the killers. However, I will say I feel he was involved with whatever went on that night at the Lake. I feel he knew what happened.
This is my opinion only.
It does sound that way–especially considering that he lived so close to Kenneth. Those rumors that he called the boy’s father…very odd. I am so sorry for the pain you and your family suffered.
RS7236–Did you have specific info regarding Robert’s past? Someone mentioned that he had a reputation as one who lured young people to his condo with drugs and then seduced young men. And I now know he was stabbed by a young man in 1991. But is there anything more, any proof of his actions? I have yet to find police records, but if they are there, I’ll find them soon.
Dm957, several of the investigators told me that Frueh did have a bad reputation and had some charges on record. I do not remember what the charges were for. This would have been in ’83 probably
Dm957 if you have access to police reports, check January through May of 1983. There should be activity concerning Frueh being questioned during that time period.
We often hear about crimes involving people that have become connected to the Lake Waco Murders in one way or another; the murder of Juanita White, the many crimes of Tab Harper, James Russell Bishop’s California attack and whatever crazy stuff Robert Frueh was involved in but we hear nothing about the crimes that could be directly connected to the Lake Waco Murders; the vandalism of Clifford Oliver’s car and the break-ins of Patti Deis’ apartment. Whatever happened to the investigations into these crimes, were these cases ever resolved, was anyone ever arrested? Whatever happened to the physical evidence that was collected from Patti Deis apartment? Does anyone know how we could go about finding this stuff? Can we find any of the items that were collected by the Waco Police Department back in 1982 and have seemed to disappear along the way? If we are committed to finding the truth we must be willing to look at everything!!!
Always interested when I find or hear something that is new to me. While talking to Christine Juhl the other day she told me something I found interesting. I really don’t know what to think or make of it, so I thought I would just share and see if anyone has any thoughts. We were talking about when Christine stayed with Daivd’s mother while he was in jail, this would have been from sometime after September 14, 1982 until she left Waco. Christine Juhl: Another thing you should know Simons and the DA gave me 200.00 per month cash to pay Juanita rent while I lived with her so that I could try to get info from David while he was in jail. I picked the cash up from Vic Feazell himself. That was the day they set it up to have David and I pass in the hall when they did dental casts. It was done to set David off…. and it did! Looking back I wondered why the DA’s office was paying it. I also meet with the preceding judge before Deebs retrial. I would say it was November 1992 before the trial.
May I ask:
Did Christine Juhl share any details of the meeting with the presiding Judge at Deeb’s retrial?
When did Feazell go into office?
What is the date of Spence’s sexual assault attack on D. Pack?
Here is what Christine had to say about her meeting with the judge; As I stated before the meeting with the judge was before the trials. The DA flew me and my son down for a pretrial talk. It was maybe October. Mostly we talked about my life in present. We talked about what was to be expected at the trial. Including how to handle the Defense attorney. I remember the Judge saying he (the defense) was known to chew witnesses up and then using their bones to pick his teeth. We talked about David and some of the bad things he did for me. I think mostly it was a pep talk. Keep in mind I had refused to testify at the first trials. Not because I did not believe that David had done it – because I did believe he had .But because I was still afraid he would find a way to kill me. I was scared. I was scared that looking at him across the room would somehow make it possible for him to kill me. Strange as this may sound, I was never truly free of fear until he was executed.
Anticipating more questions I also asked Christine about this; Thank you for your response and I don’t want to sound insensitive but I see this question coming. If you were so afraid of David how in your mind was it possible for you to act as a conduit for the state to get him upset? Like yeah the guy i’m afraid might kill me, i’m going to see if I can make him more upset and unstable. I would really like to understand this line of thinking. And it wasn’t like you were under any obligation to the state, you didn’t have to stay in Waco you could have returned to Fort Worth. You could have been like hey I have finally gotten away from. David for good I don’t need or want to get caught up in his world again in any way shape or form and no one could fault you for that. But you stayed, you didn’t testify during the first trials but you did testify for the Grand Jury. So is it correct to say from the time you stayed with Mrs. White until you testified at Deeb’s retrial you still believed they were guilty and you were afraid?
And her response to this: As long as David thought I was faithful to him and he was in jail I was safe. Simon’s was the one that made it clear that David had friends and David wanted me dead.
Matter of fact Simon’s called my mother in late 1983 and told her that my body had been found in Dallas by some railroad tracks.
How heartless was that?!?
Christine also commented on when Vic Feazell became involved and here is what she had to say about that; Feazel May have not take office officially until January but he was involved with Simons prior to taking office. I did not know until later he was not the residing DA at the time. Juanita may have helped police (by being truthful and opening her home to them to search) but at the same time she believed her son was not capable of murder. She loved her son.
This is the article I read. I have been researching for about a week and haven’t found anyone who grandmother was murdered and the shot themselves and survived. However I’m amazed by the inconsistencies on the Lake Waco murders and I have a lot of serious doubts about the convicted.
Does anyone consider that Beth Bramlett could’ve been killed by the same person or persons? Also there is an article out today that states the suspect they believe killed Beth killed his grandmother in bellmead apparently because he had nowhere to stay and she had become suspicious. Then a few years later he attempted to kill himself and shot himself but ended up surviving. Anyone know who they are talking about?
mmaaix, could you share the article you read. I know there was some one that killed a lady in Bellmead about the same time when Bramlett was killed and he was looked into for the Lake Waco murders also. At the moment I can’t remember the guys name I know I have it somewhere. There were two other murders, Dorothy Collins and Carol Armstrong, one of these women was elder and the other was like a teen maybe early 20’s, I think the same guy killed both. I will look through my notes this weekend and find the name.
Now a connection between the Lake Waco Murders and Beth Bramlett that would be Robert Watts. I’m sorry I’m going to have to fling it for now, again I have to go through the reports. There was a girl that was a resident at the Methodist Home named Christie Hart, she told police they needed to look at Donnie Sizemore, Danny McSpaden and Danny McGinnis, I apologize I might have the spellings wrong and I have seen Sizemore’s name as Donnie and Danny. Anyway Kenneth Franks had stayed at the Northwood Apartments in June 1982 with this Sizemore and one of these Dannys, I keep getting them mixed up. When the police talked to Danny he told them Kenneth had stayed with them because he couldn’t go home but gave no reason and Danny made Kenneth leave because Kenneth was smoking dope in Danny’s apartment and Danny didn’t allow that. He also stated he and Sizemore at stopped by the Franks’ residence to see Kenneth, he wasn’t there but Mr. Franks was and was intoxicated and came on to the boys. The other Danny had dated Beth and had been friends with Kenneth, the police interviewed Danny and he told the police about the party which was the last place Beth Bramlet was seen alive. This Danny hadn’t gone to the party but had been told about it and told the police they needed to talk to Perry Singleton. When the police went to the Singleton’s Perry’s mother told the police they probably wanted to talk to Drury not Perry, Drury had picked up this drifter in Waco that had told them about the Lake Waco murders. Perry did inform the police that at the party a fight broke out and some one pulled out a gun. Beth Bramlett, this drifter Robert Watts and a third male, can’t remember his name at the moment, ran into the woods. A few shots were fired. Then this guy that ran into the woods with Beth and Robert came out and made peace with the guy with the gun, it seems Beth and Robert didn’t come out of the woods, her body would be found a couple days later. Either Perry or one of the Dannys also told police they saw Robert Watts after this and he was wearing a belt that belonged to Beth. Then the police talked to Drury and finally Robert.
Drury told police he had picked up Robert the Thursday after the murders and that’s how he had heard about them. When the police interviewed Robert he said Drury had picked him up on Monday before the murders but then he admitted he was in Waco when the murders occurred. Robert said he left I think San Antonio on Saturday hitch hiking and it took him two days to get to Waco. He spent that first night he arrived in Waco at Fort Fisher. If he arrived in Waco Monday and spent the night at Fort Waco, that would put him at Fort Fisher on Tuesday the day of the murders and the day the girls, Jill and Raylene went to Fort Fisher. Could they have run into Robert Watts? And if Drury picked up Robert until Thursday what did Robert do in Waco from the time he got to Waco and Thursday?
mmaaix, that’s my fast reply I will straighten out the details, the names and such after the weekend. Great question!!!
Christine didn’t give any details of the meeting but I will ask her. When did Feazell go into office? Mrs. Thompson great question and this is my point regarding my conversations with Christine Juhl. Feazell didn’t get into office until January 1983 as far as I know she was staying with David’s mother long before this, Christine and I differ on when she actually started staying there but I believe it was shortly after she returned to Waco in September 1982, Vic Feazell had nothing to do with the case at that time. I’m not saying somewhere along the line Simons and/or Feazell gave her money but I believe, as I do with many things Christine states, she’s just mixed up on the timeline or the chain of events. This begs the question is this intentional or not? .
Spence attacked Pack Sunday September 5, 1982, he was arrested Thursday September 9, 1982. Simons and Baier took over the case on Friday September 10, 1982. As part of their investigation they went over the police reports that had been filed by the officers that had worked the case from July 14th until September 3rd, in doing so they came across the July 19th report where Lisa Kader came to the station and reported Muneer Deeb had killed Kenneth Franks because of Gayle Kelly, no one had tried to talk to Deeb about this in any way and although they had talked to Gayle Kelly a number of times she was never asked about Deeb. Baier and Simons went to the Methodist Home to talk to Lisa Kader to see what information she had, they got more than they were looking for when she not only offered her belief that Deeb had killed the kids but that David Spence could have also been involved. Asked why, she explains that Spence had raped her back in August and in the process had intimidated her with a knife and bitten her violently. The bites had been so violent Kader still had the marks and showed the officers. Simon remembered the marks on Jill and with that David Wayne Spence became a serious person of interest. When Simons and Baier, trying to find if there was anything in the police records on David Wayne Spencer, were told he had just been arrested for sexual assault where a knife had been used, Spence became a serious suspect.
In the next couple days Simons and Baier collected information on Muneer Deeb until late at night Sunday September 12th, then Gayle Kelly called Simons telling him Deeb had just admitted to her and Patti Deis that he killed the kids. The next night, Monday September 13th, 1982 Deeb was arrested. The following day, Tuesday September 14th Simons and Baier were interviewing Dana Diamond and she told them about the insurance policy and that Deeb had told her the girls that had been killed had been in the store the day they were killed and the girl he had the policy on was suppose to be with them and if she had been he would have been rich. Dana didn’t know the girl’s name Deeb had the policy on. This was the first the police had heard about the insurance policy. Checking this out the officers fonud there were two insurance policies, one on Gayle Kelly with Deeb as the beneficiary and a second on Christine Juhl with Spence as the beneficiary. Simon tracks down Christine Juhl in Fort Worth and asks her if she could return to Waco, they would like to interview her. She agrees and returns to Waco the next morning September 15th. This would have been the earliest Christine heard anything about Deeb being arrested for the murders and that David had been arrested for the Pack incident. It was sometime after this that she moved in with David’s mother.
Christine told me, at first she stayed with her husband, she had married one of Deeb’s friends back in August, but her husband’s aunt disapproved and she wasn’t allowed to stay. She states this is when Simons talked to David’s mother into allowing Christine to move in. Honestly I have a hard time believing this account, which I have stated to Christine. David’s mother was helpful to the authorities, she wanted David to be innocent but she didn’t lie to officers like the members of the Melendez family had a history of doing. Mrs. White turned over things she found that she thought were suspicious with out anyone else knowing anything about these items. Actually it was things she told Gene Deal, David’s parole officer, that made Mr. Deal start to believe David was responsible for the murders back in August. He would call the Waco Police at least three times back in late July and August but Detective Ramon Salinas wasn’t interested, so this should have been when David Wayne Spence became a suspect but that wouldn’t happen until the following month. But getting back to Christine, she wasn’t giving the officers any useful information, Simons states all she did was ask questions, his position and rightfully so was he was suppose to be asking the questions. So why would Simons try to arrange for Christine Juhl, a person he wasn’t getting information from, to live with Mrs. White, some one he was getting information from, to obtain information. As far as I know Simons was shocked when Christine informed him she was staying with David’s mother.This sounds much more logical, really how do you go to some one and say hey your son’s ex-girlfriend that just recently left him and married some one else can’t stay with her husband and needs a place to stay!!! I think it is more likely that once Simons found Christine was staying with Mrs. White he used it to his advantage as best he could. Christine states they used her to upset David, I believe this could be true because they did like to get David upset because he talked more when he was upset.
So in regards to the timeline and how Christine Juhl may have things mixed up, again something I have asked her about but have yet to get a reply, I see a more probable chain of events. Christine left David Spence in late July but she stayed in Waco until August 10th according to her account. I would add this is also suppose to be the date Lisa Kader was rapped by David. Christine returned to Waco August 17th and 18th, this is when she married Mahar. She returned to Fort Worth after being in Waco for a couple days. This was also the time the argument between Christine and Deeb occurred that Doris Tucker called the police about, so maybe this could give us a better understanding of what that argument was about. I would say this is when Christine realized she couldn’t live with Mahar and that’s why she returned to Fort Worth at that time. Then when Simons called her the night of September 14th and she agreed to return to Waco, realizing she didn’t have a place to stay she started staying with Mrs. White and she informed Simons.
Thank you for joining the conversation. I must give Christine credit I ask a lot of hard questions, I really pry into things and she has always been willing to take the time and make the effort to respond. I am grateful and truly appreciate that. It is a great asset to be able to get such a unique view from some one that was so close to what was going on back in 1982. We may not like or agree with what she tells us and it might be the first time we hear some of the things she will share which would lead us to ask why didn’t she say any of this earlier, I know it has been that way for me in the many months I have been communicating with Christine. So feel free to ask questions but a little reminder, I’ve seen this on sites dealing with other cases, ask your questions, share your opinions and thoughts everyone is entitled to that but please keep it civil and respectful. Hey I’ve talked and tried to talk to a number of people but when the questions become difficult or they don’t like the questions they stop talking, Christine has been nice enough to put up with my endless barrage. If these questions were easy we probably would have had the answers a long time ago
Lisa Kader didn’t give Simons and Baier a date of when the incident occurred when they went and saw her on Saturday September 11, 1982. She stated that it happened a couple weeks before. The details she gave were she went out on a double date with Faye Pearson and Robert Coleman, the same Robert Coleman that was with David the day of the Darwin Pack incident. The Methodist Home had a policy regarding whom the girls dated, if one of the girls wanted to go out on a date with some one, the prospective date had to be approved of by the house parent. Once permission was granted the girl would have to sign out and state her plans for the date. One little problem with this policy; a girl that got permission to go out on a date could take a friend and once this happened the friend could hook up with anybody she wanted without getting permission and that looks like what happened in this case. How the police came up with the date August 10th was Faye Pearson and Lisa Kader had signed out together on that Date. Pearson had gotten permission to go out with Robert Coleman and when the girls signed out Faye had written she was going out with Robert Coleman and that they were going out for pizza and Lisa was going with them. The police didn’t find any other such entries in the log.
So Christine that date matches when you left Waco and the night you left David July 19th was also the night of the first break-in of Patti Deis’ apartment. Do we see a pattern?
Christine,
I have always been curious as to how well you knew the Melendez brothers. As you know, they recanted their confessions. Tony communicated with me the last 5 years of his life. He told me that he did not have anything to do with the crime. He begged me for 5 years to believe him ! I also would like to know how John Arnett was involved
I feel like you are the only one who knows the truth and that is all I want….”the truth”. Jill was my niece. Again, ALL I WANT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. we met during Deebs’ retrial and I believe you can help me finally feel like I know the truth.
Thank you for your help.
RS7236:
The Melendez brothers, Tony and Gilbert, hung out with David a lot at Juanita’s house from July of 1981 until there was a falling out between David and the brothers in November of 1981.
I do not recall seeing them again until the early morning of July 14th 1982. I cannot say that I knew John Arnett at all. Even the name did not bring back any memories. Matter of fact I was not aware that the Melendez brothers had any other siblings until recently.
I am not sure that even I know the whole truth. I am just a small part of a very big web.
And I do remember meeting you at Deeb’s trial. You were all very kind to me.
Thank you for responding. If you will please refresh my mind on the early morning of the 13th……..who all came to your apartment that morning? Was Clifford Oliver one of them? And I thought John Arnett was with him. I must have that all mixed up.
Christine, I appreciate you more than you know!!
Did you know Jill at all ?
Do you believe it happened mostly like the book Careless Whispers revealed.
Thanks again. Jan Thompson
Thirty- five years ago today and still so many questions!!! With all the talk about court cases, evidence, files, forensic boards, conflicting opinions, testimony and police reports we have to remember the human element, we cannot and should not forget all that was taken away and lost.
Following this case as long as I have, from reading “Careless Whispers” in my late teens back in the 80’s until the present, there are things that stick out and stick with me. Point in case Jill Montgomery spent the morning before she left for Waco with her aunt. Jill told her aunt while she was in Waco she was planning to stop by the Methodist Home to pick up a couple items she had left with a friend, a sweatshirt and a R.E.O. poster. When the investigators talked to Mrs. Thompson she stated she didn’t even know what a R.E.O. was. What is a R.E.O.? I know that’s a question I can answer correctly. So in remembrance of Jill Montgomery, Raylene Rice and Kenneth Franks a deep cut from the classic 1980 R.E.O. Speedwagon album Hi Infidelity – “I Wish You Were There”
Recent conversations have hit on the confusion and the true heart of the matter that leaves us with so many questions about the night of July 13th and the morning of July 14th. The central figure being David Wayne Spence and the big question is; whom was with whom and when and obviously what did they do? We have two very questionable accounts of the whereabouts and actions of David Spence during that time frame. First we have Anthony and Gilbert Melendez, they would confess, plead guilty and testify against Spence, only to refuse to cooperate further and recant their testimony once they realized they were not going to get parole after serving tens years which they thought was part of the agreement they had made when they agreed to the plea deal. Then we have the testimony of Clifford Oliver and Todd Childers, two guys that testified that they, with their friends John Arnet and Cal Frazier, woke Spence up at his apartment in the early hours of July 14th approximately between 1:30 a.m. and 2:00 a.m. and spent most of the morning of the 14th with Spence. There are a few differences in their testimony and they don’t seem definitely sure on their timeline. That would make sense most of us lose track of time when we are partying with friends. As would and should be expected, you can tell both Clifford and Todd have been prepped or coached, for those with a more sinister view, but even with that Clifford’s testimony doesn’t sound reliable or convincing. Clifford Oliver
also testified for the Grand Jury and at Spence’s trial and it’s his varying accounts and what he can and can’t remember that really begins to raise questions. The only facts we can with any degree of certainty draw from that night are Clifford got into an argument with his wife the night of July 13th. The police learned this when they found his car the morning of July 14th, called Clifford’s house and his wife informed them that she and Clifford had argued the night before and Clifford left and hadn’t returned home. Clifford’s car had been vandalized sometime that night and he rolled into the police station to retrieve his car shortly after 9:00 a.m. the morning of July 14th. One might wonder, well I do, by Clifford’s own account he had been up drinking all night and shooting crank and the Waco Police Department just hand over the keys to him, that’s some very insightful and perceptive police work.
There are so many things in Clifford’s testimony that could be questioned but I’m just going to share one for now, For those that are interested you can find his testimony on-line. Just for the purpose of showing Clifford’s ever changing facts and story I’ve chosen a part of his cross examination by Russ Hunt during Spence’s first trial. I guess I should give a little back ground for those that are not familiar with the story. When Clifford went to pick up his car, the morning of the 14th when by his own testimony he was so messed up he could remember what he did that night, he wrote a check to the police department that bounced. A couple days later he had to return to the station to rectify that problem. At that time Lieutenant Horton questioned Clifford about what he might have seen the night of July 13th while he was out at the lake. Again there may be some question if Clifford was asked about any of this when he first went to the station on the 14th but Clifford was there approximately at 9:00 a.m. the morning of the 14th that would be approximately the same time Mr. Franks was filing a missing persons report on Kenneth, Jill and Raylene, so when Clifford was there that morning the police department as a whole weren’t aware there was even anyone missing at that point. So here is Russ Hunt asking Clifford Oliver about what he told Horton only days later.
R.H. – That day. Okay. A few days later did you have occasion to go down to the Waco Police Department and tell them in fact that you had been to Koehne Park that night?
C.O. – Yes. True.
R.H. – Why did you think that might be important, Clifford?
C.O. – I thought maybe I might have seen a car or something that, you know, might help them out. I had to go in and pay for check I wrote for my car. It was hot. So I had to go in. And when I got there, I had heard about the murders. And I thought that was the night I was there; maybe I can think of something. So I told them what cars I saw out there and stuff like that.
R.H. – Did you tell about the Mexican fellows that you had contact with that evening?
C.O. – The ones — well, I told them there were some sitting down there yeah. But that wasn’t the ones that were in the truck, but there were some other ones that were over there and they looked suspicious.
R.H. – I didn’t understand that. So why don’t you describe that if you could. What do you mean? What exactly did you tell the police department, the best you can remember again because it’s been almost two years ago
C.O.- I told them the people that we saw in the truck and I told them we saw some Mexicans down there that looked like low riders is what I call them The guy had on a gangster hat and silk looking gangster type hat. Looked like a pretty rowdy type, you know, crew.
R.H. – Where I’m sorry Clifford. Where were they in relation to — Well let’s go back. Where were the rowdy types, the ones that looked kind of like low riders, in relation to where you were at the circle that night?
C.O. – This was over toward the right beach area where we stopped at the truck to get the joint. They were sitting here and the truck was up here.
I am going to skip ahead a little bit. If you haven’t figured out this was the first time Russ Hunt and probably heard about another group of Mexicans at the park that night when Clifford and his friends arrived. Up to that point all Clifford had testified to, including during his Grand Jury testimony, was a about a truck that they traded beer for a joint. During the Grand Jury he couldn’t give a description of the guys they traded with, he said it was 3 guys, now at Spence’s trial it was 4 or 5 guys. Todd Childers would also testify about trading with the guys in the truck, he described them as Mexican and thought there were 4 guys. Clifford now has two groups of Mexicans in the park and Russ Hunt is a little confused. There was a chalk board set up in the court room so Hunt asked Clifford to draw a map of the park and mark where everybody he is talking about that were in the park that night. Clifford complies.
After Clifford drew the map, made his marks and took his seat back on the stand, Hunt asked him a couple questions about the Pinto, Raylene Rice’s car, then returned to what Clifford had told Lt. Horton.
R.H. – Okay. Now you said that sometime a few days later you went over to the Waco Police Department and you talked to somebody over there. Would that have been Lt. Horton that you talked to?
C.O. – True.
R.H. – And Lt. Horton I understand was one of the people involved in the investigation of Lake Murders. So you were talking to the people that were responsible for investigating the Lake Murders, is that correct?
C.O. – Yes.
R,H. – Can you tell us basically what you told Lt. Horton about the low riders that you saw out there at the lake?
C.O. – I just told him that I saw a bunch of suspicious looking people in a car out that were out there when we were out there. And basically that’s all I told him. I just told him that and I told him I saw a truck.
R.H. – Where was the truck?
C.O. – It was parked there. They were in the truck.
R.H. – Okay. I got you. Okay.
That was all of that, Hunt moved on to asking Clifford about what he and David Spence did the next morning when they returned to Koehne Park. So were there two groups of Mexicans out there partying? Did any of the other people the police questioned that were at Koehne Park that night report anything like this? What about a truck, did anybody have anything to say about any trucks at the park that night, and since we know Gilbert had a white truck, even though some will question if it was running, is there anything in the reports about a white truck. You know there is!!!
First I would ask, So Clifford and his friends traded beer for a joint and yes I admit it is very likely they just went up to some strangers to make this trade but that is a good way to get your self arrested. Isn’t it just as likely somebody from one of the groups knew someone from the other group and that’s how the contact was made? Whom reported seeing a white truck?
We have Melinda Wells, she stated she was at the park at approximately 11:00 p.m. and she saw a white truck, a white car, the orange Pinto and the kids at that time. And then we have Candyce Satterwhite. before I get to Ms. Satterwhite I need to address Charles Ramsey and his truck. Ramsey was a wielder and was in the area to bid on a job. After taking care of his business he decided to stop by the park to rest up before he headed home, he ended up staying until close to midnight. Most of the people the police interviewed recalled seeing Mr. Ramsey’s truck but it was described many different ways; a van, a work truck, a truck that wasn’t a pick up, his truck was white and had red lettering on the doors. Although Mr. Ramsey was there during the time in question he wasn’t much of a witness, he was falling asleep off and on all night until he left and he was sure the Pinto was there and never moved from the time he got there which he put at approximately 5:00 p.m. until he left. So Mr. Ramsey’s truck was parked to the right of the pinto from the time the kids arrived until Mr. Ramsey left around midnight.
Ms. Satterwhite and her boyfriend David Pearcy arrived at the park approximately at 10:15 p.m., they parked in between the Pinto which was to their left and Mr. Ramsey’s truck which was to their right. Ms. Satterwhite added she also remembered seeing a white car and as they were leaving she saw a red and white truck. Candyce and David gave their statements to police on July 16th, same as Melinda Wells, so now the police have two witnesses that say they saw a white truck at approximately 11:00 p.m. For those that are interested in keeping count that’s more than there are reliable reports of Tab Harper being in the park that night. The police decide to place the couple under hypnosis. David’s session was done of July 21st and he told the same story he had told on the 16th. Then the next day Candyce had her session. Under hypnosis Ms. Satterwhite says she saw a blond hair girl wearing blue jeans or dark pants and a purple and gray halter top, it looked like the girl was coming from the truck that was parked directly behind the Pinto, Candyce couldn’t be sure, this girl that she saw was standing behind the vehicle. What truck was she talking about? It definitely couldn’t be Mr. Ramsey’s it was parked on the other side of Ms. Satterwhite’s car than the Pinto was, the only other truck she ever mentioned was a red and white truck she remembered seeing as she was leaving. Keep in mind when David and Candyce arrived at the park they sat at one of the picnic tables for a little while then returned to their car and left. And could have Candyce just mixed up the trucks she saw, Ramsey’s was white with red writing on the doors, maybe the truck she saw as she was leaving was just white. Either way it would have been nice if she could given more detail while she was under hypnosis. It leaves us with the question did Melinda Wells and Candyce Satterwhite see the same truck at approximately 11:00 p.m. that night? And could this be the same truck Clifford and Todd would testify about and whom was in that truck?
Earlier I mentioned the condition Clifford Oliver repeatedly states he was in, which one would expect when one is up all night drinking and shooting up crank. But it got me thinking; a group of guys sitting around drinking and doing speed would be a rather noisy bunch. I was talking to Christine Juhl about her testimony the other day, so I guess I should direct this question to her. In her testimony she states she couldn’t be sure if Clifford and his friends and David stayed at the apartment all night or if they left and came back in the morning. She would not see them until David woke her to get ready for work about 6:30 a.m. I take it that the apartment was small, one bedroom. I know Clifford would testify how he knew Christine was there was because he had to use the bathroom, to do so he had to go through the bedroom and that’s when he noticed Christine was in bed. Maybe Christine could give us the lay out of the apartment. And if these guys were at the apartment drinking wouldn’t there be some sign of this, like a lot of empty beer cans. I know David was a heavy drinker but were talking about another 4 guys adding to the collection of empty beer cans, that would be a noticeable difference. Can Christine recall? My point; if the guys didn’t stay at the apartment where did they go and what did they do?
The apartment was a one bedroom. Very small maybe 800 sf total. The Bathroom was located off the bedroom. You had to got though the door of the bedroom to go to the bathroom. If there were 4 guys drinking beer all night in that apt I am sure they would have all needed to use the bathroom throughout the night. Did only one state they had to use the bathroom?
I do not have any memory of 4 extra guys staying all night. I keep thinking they all (including David) left and then came back to take me to work. No I do not have any memory of extra beer cans.
About the bathroom use,Todd was asked this during the trial and he said he and John went outside to relieve their selves. Christine I would like to go over what you have said, you know you have told me that you remember seeing David and Clifford together earlier in the night while you were at work, Correct? You testified David came home after you had come home from work and went to bed, when David came home he went to bed with you and then later in the night some one came to the door. But you have told me you think David and Clifford came to the apartment together that night and you don’t know if they stayed or not. Rather they stayed or not you weren’t sure about when you testified, so that hasn’t changed but David and Clifford coming to the apartment together is a huge change. Could you tell us where you stand on that now?
RS:
I know that Clifford was at the apt early morning of the 14th. I cannot say with 100% certainty who else was there. I do not recall John Arnett. There was at least 2 other people with Clifford when they took me to work at 7am.
The only interaction I had with the kids from the home were though the store. Many would come in to buy stuff. A several girls got weed from Deeb. The conflict between Deeb and Kenneth was apparent. I cannot honestly say I knew Jill.
The book was not always accurate in my opinion.
Thank you Christine.
About your knowledge on Jill………do you know if she ever stayed at Juanita White’s house when she would run away from the home?
Do you remember if Jill &Raylene or Kenneth came by the store on that day (13th)?
Again, I appreciate your willingness to converse with us.
Christine I think we need to be clear about your statement, “I do not recall John Arnett”, that statement leaves a lot of wiggle room that’s what we are trying to eliminate and stick with facts. As you know when I was informed John Arnett was the Melendez brother’s younger sibling, I asked you about it. My thinking being since Anthony and Gilbert stayed with you and David there was a chance you would have met other members of the family. Remember I have asked you the same about Clifford Oliver’s family, again figuring if they hung out together as much as you have indicated to me, you might have known some of his family. In both cases you informed me you didn’t. So in saying you do not recall John Arnett, what you are stating is that you didn’t know John Arnett at the time so you would not be able to recall if he was there? You are not saying you knew John Arnett and you don’t remember seeing him? Is this correct?
I did not know John Arnett. I did not know until you told me that the brothers had another sibling. Before the fall out in November the brothers and David hung out a lot. I do not remember a 3ed brother ever.
David had two mothers. Juanita White was his real mother. I can see his “2nd” mom allowing this but not Juanita. Not at the house on 15th. Juanita was a good person that had very high morals. She would not have allowed runaways or any other girl stay at her home. If a runaway would have shown up there or anyone under the age of 18 she would have stopped them at the door. If she knew they were runaways she would have called the police. There was no such shenanigans in her home while she lived in the house. She like her home quiet and clean.
That being said….. in the summer and winter of 1981 she lived with her boyfriend. During that time David rented the house from her. David allowed his friends to stay for weeks on end. But when Juanita moved back in that all stopped. It was god sent for me.
Also David’s brother Steve lived with us. Steve was the opposite of David in every way. Very Christian.
No – Jill never stayed with us. Nor any other girl overnight. No, I do not recall seeing them in the store during my evening shift. 6-11
Kenneth nor Gayle had not been in the store in days prior because of the falling out between them.
Christine you said David had two mothers. I guess you are talking about Dorothy Miles as his second mother? Now we have to be fair here, you and Dorothy Miles didn’t get along, she would not allow you in her house, the reason being you accused her daughters and David of cheating on you and went to her house and tried to start trouble, Mrs. Miles wasn’t going to have any of that.
About people staying at the house with David and you know we have talked about this recently, David brought home girls on a number of occasions even why you were there, I know this is difficult for you to get into but if we are going to put stuff out there we have to be as accurate as possible. You told me yourself David liked younger teenage girls, you were a teenager at the time. Do you remember the girls he brought over? Can you give names? You just said you can’t honestly say you knew Jill. So how can you honestly say a girl you didn’t know didn’t stay there? And you also said, “The only interaction I had with the kids from the home were through the store”. Rhonda Evans had left the home before the store opened so if she was a girl that David brought to the apartment you would not have known her.
Christine you just told me a few days ago, “So much I have forgotten/pushed out of my mind”. Again you know we have discussed at length the problems with your memory or should I say my perception of your memory lapses. Let’s just take a look at what you just wrote,”No, I do not recall seeing them in the store during my evening shift. 6-11″. Now you are positive you worked 6 to 11 that night, remind you that’s not what you testified to. You stated you couldn’t recall when you worked other than you closed, you didn’t know if you worked a full shift or a split shift. I just asked you about this a few days ago, this was one of those other questions you didn’t answer. May I ask what was it that has set your mind so firm of this is just the last couple days? Christine I truly can’t say what you have pushed out or blocked out of your mind. But as I pointed out the other day to you when I was asking you about this, I can see how your mind would want to block out that a girl you saw in the store that day, you realized a couple days later, when you saw her picture in the paper, was one of the girls that was killed and that’s not even thinking about the possibility you recognized her from somewhere else. And up to this time it’s just been easy for you to say I don’t remember when I worked that day. Did you work the day Dana Diamond, a girl you told me you knew and stayed with a couple nights, came in and Deeb told her the girls had come into the store and that the girl he had the insurance policy on was suppose to be with them and he would have been rich if she had been. Again it’s been easy for you to say you don’t remember because you know in your mind then it becomes harder to answer other questions like when Deeb did this didn’t you start to think something could be up especially after you knew David and Deeb had just talked about such a thing only 10 days earlier. And then put that on top of the fact that you stated Deeb knew about the murders the morning before the murders were reported. And we can’t forget David’s parole officer said when he came to visit David and you in your new apartment, which he dates as July 21st, you and David got into an argument and you mentioned you could say something about two girls then David stared you down and you shut up. Christine can’t you see how hard it becomes to believe you didn’t know anything? It was better for you to forget these things, to push them out of your mind.
Really how can any one not question rather David ever said anything or made some kind of comments to you when he was making them to so many other people, you were probably closer to him than anybody and I’m not sure if that really mattered. July 16th, the Friday night after the murders he tells Mrs. Miles he’s done something really bad, Sometime before July 21st, which was why Mr. Deal came to check on David, because earlier David had told him he was afraid he was going to get killed because he knew too much about the murders and then we have Regina Rosenbaum a girl that didn’t even know David and he’s telling her and her friends he raped two girls out at the lake and this was in late July. So David was making these remarks to all these people, people that were like family to him, strangers, even his parole officer but nothing to you? But totally nothing to you, you were completely clueless? Christine can you see the difficulty in understanding this. And you haven’t been able to answer this in anyway, you say you don’t remember, that tells me that there is a good possibility this is some of the stuff you have pushed out of your mind. Christine I know I should handle this with more finesse, it’s a delicate matter and maybe I need to be more sensitive and I’m sorry I might act like a caveman on a coconut ripping into this but the truth has been waiting for 35 years.
1)my shifts where opening 7 -2 and/or close. We closed at 11pm if I am not mistaken. It was slow in the afternoons. I said 6-11 because that’s what on my mind. It could have been 5-11. Kareem liked to be home for dinner. The busiest time was 6 -10. in the future I will state closing shift and not enter a time.
2)Yes, David brought girls home but none of them spent the night. he would take them into Juanita’s bedroom and then they would leave. Yes he like his girls young. I was young too.
3) Dorothy Miles daughter was one of the girls that David Screwed on his real mother’s bed. Cindy or something like that. An older lady that had a very strange voice. Janine or something like that. She had a horse ranch. Rich. I was not like I sat in the living room with these women and drank wine and asked them questions and writing it in a journal. The reason the older lady stood out is because she came to Juanita’s house several times and she called all the time. The reason that Ms. Miles daughter stood out is because I did know who she was.
4) Nope Ms. Miles and I did not get along.
5) No I am not going to remember everything correctly after 35 years some memories fade others stand out but I feel now I may have them muddled together, it was a time of great pain for me and many others.
6)there is no way to answer all your questions. you ask many…. some I need to think about to try to remember. Some I just cannot find the time to complete a reply and end up not posting the respond. I will try harder.
even this morning I am interrupted I must leave for work.
Juanita was a strict woman. Not much got past those intense blue eyes. She knew that if she gave David any leeway he would run all over her. It was her rules in her home. I respected that.
How could I not have known?
1) David knew I would have not talk about murdering Gayle or anyone.
2) David did not trust me with a lot of information. That is humiliating to say but his action proved he had little respect for me.
3) I was not the only person he did not tell… his mother nor brother did not know anything.
4) Clifford claimed not knowing. Yet he was David’s best friend and was with him the morning after the murders even parked beside Kenneth’s car while he with David after the murders. If this account is true…. David would have told Clifford that morning.
5) Simons would have never let me leave the state if had even the slightest tingle in his gut that I knew anything more than what I was stating or withholding information. Simons was not below creating bogus charges and throwing me in jail if I had lied. These good ole boys were not alter boys.
6) I have never hidden. The DA and Simons has always had address and my phone number. When you first reached out I was reluctant. But I responded. I questioned your intent. But I did not block you from contacting me. Nor do I refuse to talk to you because you do not believe me.
There are a lot of conflicting stories in just what you have been researching. And you are getting your information of mostly WHAT? Simon’s accounts? police reports? jail house testimony? From confessions that not only changed but could not possibly have happened in the way they stated? A book wrote by an author that was directed/screen played by Simons?
——————————-Alternate answer———————————————————-
What if they never killed them? How can I know about something that they did not do. Yes I question their guilt. I have just read Gilberts testimony. There are things that do not ring truthful. Like where they left David’s car. Could part of it be made up but other parts truthful…. certainly.
Christine thank you for replying, I do appreciate you have been willing to indulge me, when you could just have as easily blocked me and said it doesn’t matter, it was a long time ago and it’s over like others have. But we all know questions remain. Have I ever said I do not believe you, what I have repeatedly expressed to you is since in your own words you have pushed so much out of your mind and you admit your memories are not clear and I know there are other accounts out there, isn’t it fair and warranted to question that? Yes I have gotten most of my information from police reports and trial testimony, do you have a better suggestion? The only other thing I can think to do is try to talk to people that were there and maybe ask them things they weren’t asked before or follow up questions that were left unresolved before. that’s what I’m doing now. Christine do you truly think I don’t understand it was a time of great pain for you? But that’s the crux of the matter and it’s trying to get into that, mostly just a few weeks in July, that is most difficult that’s when I know I’m skating on thin ice but I just can’t totally ignore this. On what Truman Simon thought about you, you just said, ” A book wrote by an author that was directed/screen played by Simons?” So by your own admission you are saying it’s the words of Truman Simons, so what he said in the book we can take that to be his thoughts? I know you have no desire to read that book again, so if you would like to be reminded let me know and I will look them up for you. Trust me he had serious doubts about your reliability. I really don’t want to get into that it doesn’t serve my purpose. What Truman thinks of you doesn’t matter because for the same reason I’m questioning you so was he, he wasn’t around David or Deeb, you were. Christine I think that is the point you are missing so I will try to explain it another way.
You know we have talked about whom closed the store that night and you know Kareem Quasem, Deeb’s partner, said he and Deeb closed and you were not there, I will repeat for the umpteenth time I believe you but it does raise questions. This goes toward what I said earlier about asking questions that weren’t asked before. I really can’t expect you to tell me why Kareem said that, even though I know I did ask you if you could think why. I would have to talk to Kareem but I’m not talking to him I’m talking to you. Karrem added further detail, he said he and Deeb went to look for some one that owed Deeb money after they closed the store, I would like to ask him bout that, it doesn’t look like any one else did. Who was this person that supposedly owed Deeb money. And think about it you have repeatedly stated Deeb told you Kenneth had been murdered well before it became news. Deeb the same person that told people he had specific details of the murders and told people Kenneth had been made to suffer, it was slow, cuts around the heart before he was killed. Kenneth and Jill both had these shallow stab wounds to the chest. Wounds inflected to cause pain not to kill. And you don’t think I would want to question the person that testified he was with Deeb that night? I would if I could. Christine I have you, you were close to all these people. I know it may seem like all my doubts are focused on you and that’s not the case, it’s just you are available to question but I have to admit there is a lot to question.
” And you haven’t been able to answer this in anyway, you say you don’t remember, that tells me that there is a good possibility this is some of the stuff you have pushed out of your mind.”
Have you ever heard of PTSD?
Soldiers coming home from war are not the only ones to suffer from PTSD. We all have battle scars.
Yes I put some of my memories in a file. But sometimes a smell, an object, or even a sound can bring memories flooding back that I had filed away. So because we filed that memory – does it make unreal? Does it mean it did not happen?
We all need nudging. How many times has someone said… “hay… do you remember when we were kids and we went to…..” and the memory comes flooding back and with it the emotion and even the smells we felt at that moment. Well the same holds true for bad memories.
We all “file” good memories and bad memories. There is a reason that many victims end up killing themselves, on drugs, drinking or only living half empty lives. We all need to file memories.
There are many thing that I don’t remember but when nudged most come back strong. Others I have to think about it process the information. Some are so painful that even now I push them back. Like me, many surviving victims suffer this fate. ( the events beyond a person’s control that sets in motion what our future will hold) I don’t like to use the word problem or condition but you can call it whatever you like.
And to be told “you a not remembering it correctly” “that’s not how it happened according to Simons” That’s not how it happened according to the book”. “So and so said it did not happen like that”
I ask you to pause…. think….. there is always another view that you not seen yet. Because you cannot possibly see though my eyes, just like I cannot see though yours. And there may be information that still not know or that the book and/or others have intentionally hide. Like the tapes that Dannon has.
This case is a web…. massive….questionable…. and not cut and dry. Yes it is very possible that two different days are running together into one memory in my head. I just need to sort the data and nudge my brain and trigger something- some small detail – that helps separate the two events or something that solidifies my memory is correct.
When I said above about “that’s not how it happened in the Book” and the other remarks… I was not referring to you BK. I am referring to many people from the time this case came to light to now. My family, members of my church, strangers in the grocery store.
Heck one of my employees lived in Texas at that time and then moved to Colorado 5 years ago. It took him a year to get up the courage to ask me if I was Christine Juhl. Ever since then he asks questions and refers to the book. My analogy to him is “Careless Whispers” is like the Comic books of the Walking dead tv series…. some of the charactors in the show are followed the comics while others are changed by the screen writer to glorify themselves. He just laughed and laughed.
Christine we have to get into your relationship with David. You mentioned earlier that it was humiliating to say that David didn’t trust you. Was it more humiliating than the other things he put you through? You just wrote – 1) David knew I would have not talk about murdering Gayle or anyone. Exactly I agree with you 100% he knew you wouldn’t talk. Christine the things he did to you gave him a sense of control, that he could control you. You know David made a show of this when his friends were around, chaining you to the table, putting a leash on you and making you crawl around like a dog, the whole Tony incident what was that, it could prove to the Melendez brother you would do whatever he wanted you to do, bringing other girls over I would guess why he had you chained to the table. This wasn’t humiliating? I know I said this to you before but does the name Charles Manson ring a bell. Controlling. It was mental, physical and sexual abuse, so it is perfectly clear that you would want to push all this out of your mind, that’s totally understandable. And you probably still have mental scars due to this abuse you suffered and blocking out things would still be a part of this. In your mind I know you can say no that didn’t happen and I didn’t block that out but that’s not how it works, whatever you blocked out is locked away somewhere in the deep recesses in the back of your mind locked away. I’m trying to find the key to unlock those memories. So it’s not that I don’t believe you or that you are being intentionally deceitful, as you know there are conflicting stories, you even give conflicting accounts because you still can’t remember. Christine for me and I can’t believe I’m the only one that thinks like this, I”m just the only one stupid enough to ask you about it, I see you were abused , beaten, bruised, broken bones, you were tied behind a truck and dragged down the road, even with all that you stuck around and even came back or let David come back. So what was it that finally made you finally realize it was in your best interest to leave for good. Yes it could have just been the accumulation of things, you finally reached the point you couldn’t take anymore but you’ve told me you can’t remember, you have a date in your head and you know I’m going to get into that and you remember you and David got into a fight that night and you left then returned the next day to pick up you things but you can’t remember why. Christine with all we know you went through, all the things that were swirling around your world at that time, the different accounts, your lack of memory isn’t it reasonable to question that day. What was it that finally made you realize to leave, I think it had to be such a startling revelation that your fear finally caused your basic instinct for survival to kick in and you know you had to get away.
Since I just mentioned the last night you were with David and you know where I’m going with this, you said that night was July 19th and the next day July 20th was the last day you were there, that’s when you returned to retrieve your belongings. Again as you know because we have talked about it, David’s parole officer said he came to the apartment on July 21st and you were there. Christine I guess this can be one time you can say I’m having a hard time believing you but I think any one would feel the same way. It was Mr. Deal’s job to keep track of and keep record of David, then we have you a person that has admitted she’s not clear on things and has exhibited that to me a number of times, whose account do you think most people would put more faith in? I’m not totally counting out that Deal got his dates wrong, just haven’t seen anything that could or would suggest that.
With those conflicting accounts in mind I asked you maybe you had the dates mixed up, hey it’s only a day or two. Then I asked you if maybe the date of July 19th stuck out to you for another reason, maybe there was something else that happened that makes you remember this date. Again with our conversations you are aware that the 19th was the night Patti Deis’ apartment was broken into. Recently you corrected me as to when your suicide attempt took place, I thought it had occurred after the Tony incident, you informed me that it happened after the murders and it had to happen before you left David, again which you put on the 20th. Christine you also informed me that you didn’t get medical treatment from a hospital or other medical facility, you went to your step fathers, he also lived at the apartments, and he patched you up. You can’t recall the date of this suicide attempt, there aren’t any medical records of this incident. Christine you know people can cut themselves with broken mirrors, maybe broken glass, true? A more cynical person looking into this case might point out that whomever broke into Patti’s apartment cut their self when they broke the window to get into the apartment, the blood was still there when the police came to the apartment the next day. It was a significant enough amount that the officers noted that the blood had dripped down on to the sidewalk of the apartment below. I don’t know if they collected any samples of that blood, they did call in the break-in and if I’m not mistaken asked for a special investigator to meet them there. Special investigators is what the Waco Police Department called the people that collected evidence from the scene. So I would think samples were collected, I wonder if they were ever tested and maybe if those samples are still around maybe they should be tested again. Christine this was about the same time you cut yourself, July 19, a date that sticks out in your head for some reason. You say it’s because that’s the night you got in a fight with David and decided to leave for good and did so but Deal tells us otherwise. Christine I don’t believe you took an active part in this crime in anyway I want to make that clear but I could be wrong on that too. I’m just pointing out, when facts aren’t clear that opens the door for any number of possibilities and that is reasonable, that is part of looking for the truth.
So if we look at what else Gene Deal tells us happened the day of July 21st when he came to the apartment to check in on David, do we end up with more questions? Of coarse we do. Mr. Deal tells us that while he was at the apartment you and David got into an argument, he didn’t know what it was about, and you mentioned you could say something about two girls. I don’t know how many times I have asked you about this, all I know is it’s the same number as times you haven’t answered that question. So I guess I have wonder about what two girls you were talking about.
Ok, we have two girls that lived in the apartment that was just broken into two nights before Deal made his visit. We have the two girls that were raped and killed out at the lake. One of those girls had run away back in January with another girl, that makes two girls. One of those girls became a lifelong friend to David, she would visit him on death row, the only girl from the Home to do so. The other girl, the girl that was killed, was picked up by her father when she ran away back in January at a house on 15th street a few blocks away from the store, at a house that sat on a corner that didn’t look well kept from the outside. Christine does that house sound familiar to you, I’ve never been to Waco and it sounds familiar to me. Don’t worry as I’ve told you I’m the only one on that trip. So two girls you could have mentioned that’s a few that first come to mind, are there others that we aren’t aware of?
Deal further states that when you said this David stared you down and you shut up, that’s that controlling thing he had on you. So Christine what happened after Deal left that day? Is this when you and David got into a fight, I could see David not being very happy with you, speaking up like you did, you knew better, you weren’t suppose to talk to men, how did David get when you talked or even looked at other men? I could see a fight or more like a beating taking place. As I told you before, and I don’t want to make this sound like I’m making light of this, but I could see David reminding you that they had an insurance policy out on you too. Christine how would that have made you feel, I could see you for the first time finally realizing that the beatings maybe were not going to be the worst of if, David could do worse, the fear must have been tremendous.
“hay… do you remember when we were kids and we went to…..” and the memory comes flooding back
But Christine this is not what you do and that’s the question. Remember when I first started talking to you like 10 months ago, you told me you saw the Melendez brothers at the apartment that night. I was surprised and I pointed out the fact that this is not what you testified to. Your reasoning for that was because Vic Feazell didn’t want you to go into detail. Then I explained to you how that didn’t make sense. Vic Feazell would have wanted to hear that Anthony and Gilbert were in Waco, especially Anthony, you would have been the only eye witness that could say Anthony was in Waco. Vic was trying to get indictments on these guys, he would have been able to connect them together that night with an eye witness. You stated Vic didn’t want you to elaborate, Christine no elaboration would have been necessary. Vic could have simply asked you did you see Tony that night, you could have simply replied yes. Then he could have asked you did you see Tony with David, again your simple answer could have been yes. Christine you said Vic told you to give one word replies, you could have done that, so see your memory on that doesn’t add up. I let it go at the time because we weren’t getting anywhere. Then when I brought up John Arnett and how he fit in the picture, you changed your mind, maybe it wasn’t the Melendez brothers you saw that night, maybe it was these people that were with Clifford that you didn’t know. Remind you the whole time you’ve been telling me you are so sure about that night, it sticks out in your memory. Then later when we talked about it again you were back to believing it was the Melendez brothers that were the guys with Clifford and you stayed on that for a while, even telling me the more you thought about it the more you were sure it was the Melendez brothers. Then finally when again I reminded you this is not what you testified to, you said you didn’t remember being asked about this during Deeb’s retrial and wanted to read your testimony which you did. And guess what you finally came to the realization I had been telling you for months, your memories are mixed up.
Christine I have to point out that you read your Grand Jury testimony also, I know this because you told me you had forgotten about the gun and going to the park with David and the Melendez brothers at that time, that’s what made you start doubting yourself, I know that was in your grand jury testimony. And you know what problems that caused with what else you had told me. You told me you remembered it was the Melendez brothers that were with Clifford that night because after the falling out they had with David back in November 1981, you remember seeing them only one time. Christine if you only saw them one time and it was the night of the murders and you went to Speegleville Park with them with a gun, you know what you are saying!!! Anybody that can add 2 and 2 would come up with the same conclusion. But I know that’s not what you were trying to tell me, again I repeat I don’t believe you had anything to do with the murders but you keep making statements like that there are going to be a lot more questions and hopefully not only from me.
Christine what you are failing to see in all this confusion is though you might not be clear on that one night, some information you have might help explain other things. For instance; ok let’s say you only saw the Melendez brothers once between November 81 and before the murders. I know by your testimony you went to the park with them in a truck, you know it wasn’t David’s truck remember he took an ax or hatchet to his truck that night in November then he got the Malibu. So if you went to the park that summer with them in a truck it was Gilbert’s, he bought that truck on July 3rd, the owners had a notarized transfer of title that was submitted as evidence, see how that works. So what does this tell us? Gilbert’s truck was in running order and David and the Melendez brothers had made up by that time. So can you remember if this trip to the park was before or after the murders? Christine you try to keep focus of your memories on one item at a time, that keeps you from seeing the collateral damage your answers present, you are having a hard time seeing the whole big picture at one time because to get your memories clear you have to deal with one item at a time and you know I ask questions by the dozen and I’m like the devil’s advocate drilling you hard on all your replies. Hell the devil would hate to have me as the devil’s advocate, so I know it’s not easy on you.
Christine you mentioned,” sometimes a smell, an object, or even a sound can bring memories flooding back that I had filed away”. I know we have gone into this a little before, I’m just going to copy the message you sent me one time that’s along these same lines:
Sometimes a smell or action will bring a curtain memory flooding back and knock me for a loop. Or they trigger something that I had not thought of. Back then I would call Truman and tell him when they were fresh on my mind.
And a similar message you sent:
for the first time (that I can remember) I just read something that to me is fishy. I do not remember ever seeing a 1960″s blue truck. What I remember (which is hazy) (but I believe to be accurate) was a light colored off white or dirty white truck that was mid 70″s. In my minds eye…. a 74 chevy is what comes to mind. The reason I say this is because for a few years 2006-9 I owned and ran a quick lube and tire shop. And one of my customers drove a truck that reminded me of that night every time he came in for service. The first time I drove it into the bay I was confused because I did not feel anything. But when I am standing by the truck on the passenger side I could feel the memory bubbling up. whether you would say my mind is playing tricks on me or my memory is faulty or what do I know….. Sometimes a smell or seeing something sets off a chain of thoughts or a memory buried deep within me.
Do you remember those message? And that I told you I wasn’t sure what you were trying to say. I told you there was a condition that sounded like this, one sense triggering another sense, Synesthesia, not sure if you looked into this and what you think.
I have been thinking about this and add to it other things you have stated recently, mainly about how you think it was strange that the Melendez brothers would have left David’s car at his mother’s house that night. And I know I just asked you about this earlier, so you probably haven’t had timed to process it. Is it possible that you saw different people at different times that night or early the next morning? Your comments about these two different colored trucks that set off these memories a blue truck and then a light colored, off white or dirty white makes me wonder this. Todd Childers had a green truck, Gilbert an old white truck.
Is it possible that you may have run into the Melendez brothers at the apartment as they were parking David’s car when you were coming home from work, maybe like they were pulling out in Gilbert’s truck as you were pulling in? Not to say that you thought much about it at the time like maybe as they were passing by you thought it was the Melendez brothers and they were in a white truck, you noticed David’s car was home, you were mad because he didn’t pick you up from work but when you went inside you realized he wasn’t home, which you probably thought that would give you a peaceful night. And then in the morning you saw Clifford and the other guys in a different truck, Todd’s green truck. Depending on what you remember see how that could explain some things. Maybe you had seen the Melendez brothers in that truck before, either way that would tell us Gilbert’s truck was running the night of the murders, but it could also decide if you went to the park with them before or after the murders. If you weren’t familiar with the truck when you saw it that night it would tell us you probably hadn’t gone to the park until after the murders and it would be vice versa if you did know the truck that night. Just something to think about.
I closed the store that night. I called Deeb from the store phone to get a ride home because David was a no show. Deeb drove me home. Kareem was not with him. Kareem went home most evenings. He had a wife and child.
The only thing I could think of is that he told his wife he was at work while he was somewhere else. But that does not make since either. I never seen Kareem look at another woman, but his wife was very jealous.
And because if I had not worked that night but written the time down she would not have paid me. It would have been crossed off. So I find this very puzzling. If someone owed Deeb money why would he need to wreck the yellow car for the insurance money.
If someone owing Deeb money….. my bet would be on Cabina… the girl that lived by the Skaggs grocery store if anyone owed deeb money it washer. She called Deeb for money all the time. Deeb would pay her rent or front her rent money until her payday. But I cannot see this being a reason for both of them to go collect on that in the middle of the night. Plus I know that story was fabricated because Kareem was not with Deeb at 11pm.
I did not see Deeb ever sell pot… only give it to the girls from the home. So I do not see it being a drug thing. If anything he and Kareem were barely keeping afloat. Deeb got an allotment from his parents every month. He always had cash on him. Some of that was from the cash register. He tried to look big money…. but the cash was mostly 5’s and 10’s with a couple of 20’s on the outside.
You know Kabenna never repaid anything she took from Deeb!!! Christine I have to ask you this, are you now trying to tell me Deeb only gave weed to the girls. Remember before you told me he also gave them pills, including Gayle Kelly and you know I told you that was something she denied.
What I said is that he never sold pot (that I knew of). I am sorry that I did not expand that to say “and black mollies.”
He gave it to them. Not sold it. To me it did not seem plausible that Kareem and Deeb were out collecting money from some drug deal after closing is all I was trying to state. I was answering your question regarding if I knew of any money owed to Deeb that would send these two out after 11pm.
Again I will say…. Kareem was not with Deeb when he took me home. the Pills I referred to is black mollies : Mollies is a slang term for amphetamines. Speed…. Doctors prescribed it for weight loss. And is also used for ADHD.
Christine I want to get back to your dealings with Truman Simons for a minute. Remember they weren’t “alter boys” Has it ever crossed your mind that the authorities didn’t explain all their scheming in it entirety to you? They only told you what they felt was enough to get you to cooperate. police officers are known to do that, they aren’t going to tell your their whole game plan, especially if they feel you were hiding something. Just like Simons said he felt you were trying to get information asking all the questions you were, he thought, and rightfully so, he was suppose to be asking all the questions and you giving him information. So when they arranged for you and David to run into each other to get him upset, which they clearly were trying to do, can’t you see they may had other reasons for that. If they believed you had information that could hurt David and they flaunted that you were cooperating with them in front of him that would get him worried. Christine I would say that was part of their plan and it worked. As I said before David believed he could control you, once in jail he realized he couldn’t and that bothered him. I would say that was the reason for the constant calls to you he was still trying to control you. And then when he saw you cooperating with the authorities that really set him off. What was his response, start telling the other jailbirds you were involved in the murders with him, that you were there. Now I would think most people would understand he was doing this just because he was mad at you. From a law enforcement perceptive if they thought you were withholding anything this was a great way to get it out, divide and conquer.
I have never heard of any jailbird testimony that I was involved. But then again the first testimony that I read was just the other day. Or is this just something that what SIMONS says?
And the reason for the constant calls from the jail is because it was set up and controlled by Simon’s. He was the one on duty that removed David from his cell for those constant calls and listened to every one of those late night calls. Simon’s told me when to push David’s buttons. He told me when to back off… when to play nice and when to set him off.
I never asked for their whole plan. Nor did I ask Simon’s a bunch of questions. I asked him one – why was Clifford not being charged or questioned.
Christine this is what I’m getting at, you said you asked Simons about Clifford. Clifford did not get connected to this case until Josie called the police in December 1892. So when you first met with Truman Simons on September 15, 1982 he didn’t know anything about Clifford but apparently you did because you’re asking him why Clifford isn’t being charged or arrested. That leads to the simple question what did you know or think that made you believe Clifford should be arrested, well before anyone in the police department knew of any connection?
Christine you are aware there were many other jailbirds that stated David talked to them, not all testified. The D.A. decided what ones to use and not use, I guess some were more reliable than others.
When I was questioned about Deeb in Sept. I told him there was no way that Deeb could have killed those kids. I was in disbelief. I remember saying David was capable but not Deeb. I do not know if it was the very first meeting with Simons or later in Sept. But it was very early on in the investigation that Simon’s showed me my timecard – I immediately told him what happened in the early hours of the 14th and who was at the apt. it was not until seeing the timecard was I able to conclusively put that night to an event. On the time card in my writing is the Bud beer and Clifford’s cigarettes.
Going forward and before the Melendez brother confessed I would ask Simon’s about Clifford’s involvement and why he was not following up on him. Simons would give me the death stare. You know the one…. When you ask a question and the person is considers what you are asking above reproach and stonewall. To me it seemed like Simons was protecting Clifford. It was a very unnerving.
Christine I would have to say Truman Simons was interested in Clifford Oliver in December 1982 after Josie called and it looks like he was the only one. Truman set up an interview with Clifford, that Clifford missed, instead he went to Cal Frazier’s to talk about what happened that night and then Clifford got up with Truman the next day. That was very suspicious and you can see that was the sentiment in the Grand Jury testimony. After that Clifford returned to the Navy and Simons probably couldn’t touch Clifford then, he was the property of the U.S. government. Naval Intelligence would interview Clifford in the Spring of 83. So maybe Truman Simons’ reaction to your questions about Clifford was because he wanted to do something about it but knew he could not do anything about it and he didn’t like that.
And Christine how could I go a whole night and not mention our favorite subject: Clifford Oliver. I have to point out that you didn’t address my question regarding your memory or at least what you told me you remembered that you saw David and Clifford much earlier in the night than what has been told and that they came to the apartment together. What are your thoughts on that now? I see you said:4) Clifford claimed not knowing. Yet he was David’s best friend and was with him the morning after the murders even parked beside Kenneth’s car while he with David after the murders. If this account is true…. David would have told Clifford that morning.
Again just getting into the conflicting stories, Clifford testified he only saw David about once a month since he had returned to Waco about the beginning of the year, 5 or 6 times. He didn’t make it sound like they were very close. Hey I have a hard time believing Clifford. Josie told police David did tell Clifford. I think Clifford needs to be put under more scrutiny. Right now you are the only person that I can find that is willing to contradict Clifford’s account. What am I suppose to do about that, if some people got some undisclosed deal they aren’t going to talk and blow that. I’ve tried to talk to both Josie and Diane. So it would really help if you could clear up your head a remember when and where you saw Clifford and probably not just that night
Clifford and David went to a pool hall often. Clifford was a regular at Juanita’s house before she moved back in. Clifford and David both had a hatred for African Americans. Both claimed to be part of a white only group. Clifford and David got into a fight with one guy that ended up stabbing David in the neck earlier that year.
One of the things I am having trouble remembering is the brakes being replaced according to Clifford. I do remember that around the time of the murders that the flywheel or something with the tranny had came apart. But I do not remember needing brakes. Not unusual (most people) would think…..except I knew how to replace brake pads. I recall the Malibu being towed with Clifford’s truck and that David and Clifford were going to hang out together that evening and they did not return to the apt until the early morning of the 14th.
You asked me if it was possible that I am confusing the events. I stated it was possible let me think. I am trying to figure out – do I have two events muddled together? That I am still trying to figure out. And WHY did I decide to try to kill myself? Did I do something or hear something so bad that I had to kill myself? Or was my life in general so crappy and I could not take anymore pain?
Christine you have mentioned Clifford’s truck a few times, what truck are you talking about? Clifford had a Silver Pontiac at the time. This was the car that was vandalized the night of the murders. Then later he reported it stolen. He had asked the Gutierrez brothers to dismantle it so it couldn’t been found but the police were informed before they could complete the task and then Clifford and Terry Gutierrez took off to California. So could you explain the truck you keep referencing?
Christine–Re: your suicide attempt, if you have a crappy and frightening life and if there are drugs involved–especially meth or even too much pot–you can be driven to trying to take your life. It’s not any one thing, but the accumulation. And that accumulation of trauma, drugs and depression definitely impact memory. I say this because it seems at times like you are being pressured and because I’ve lived through similar experiences–no murders but plenty of scars. Take care.
DM957:
Thank you for your kind response. Yes we all have battle scars.
I did NOT do drugs, smoke pot, or drink back then. A couple of time I used black mollies (diet pills) while deep cleaning the house. Still don’t use any of them. My home is a drug and alcohol free zone. Been drunk less that 6 times in my life. I do have a problem with needing to be in control of myself even 35 years later. I don’t do well in a passenger set of a car. I sleep closest to exits. I have to be the one to lock the doors. I do not have friends like most people do.
DM957, you were asking earlier about Frueh’s police records. I did see a report stating they wanted him to take a polygraph. He was to come back at later date for the test. He in the meantime, got a lawyer and stated he was advised to not allow the polygraph. It was my understanding he was never tested. This was in the police reports on Vic Feazells’ website.
Rs7236: I read in the police reports on Vic’s site that the cops asked Robert Frueh to take a lie detector test. It seems strange to me that he could say no and that would be the end of the story–as at least a couple of folks said they saw the kids in his car. Did Robert testify at the trial?
Dm 957, you said at least a couple of folks said they saw the kids in his car. Could you please share where you saw this, I’ve read the police reports many times and other than Deanna Storts reporting seeing this I can’t recall any one else. Her boyfriend Rick Pate only said he remembered Deanna had said something about knowing and seeing the people killed but he couldn’t say he saw anything. Ronald Robinson saw Robert Frueh in the park much later but doesn’t say he saw the kids. In his first interview he states he saw a guy drive the Pinto into the park got out and then got into another car. He would change this during his second interview, the Pinto was already in the park when Robinson got there. Robinson’s time frame matched Frueh’s when he was finally interviewed, that was the problem with Deanna’s statement she saw Freuh much earlier, he denied this and the time he gave match what Robinson had said. Not saying he could have been at the park at both times but the officers didn’t really push things after he got a lawyer. The only other person to mention Robert Frueh was a biker named Bennie Poston, he didn’t see Frueh at the park, his wife worked with Frueh and was aware of some of the Reverend’s activities.
Dm957. Robert did not testify at trial. I always wondered why he wasn’t investigated more thoroughly. Personally, I think that once Truman Simon’s took over the case, they were putting it on Muneer Deeb, D. Spence, and the Melendez brother’s. When I asked about Frueh, Simon’s told me that “He was at the park, but it was later and did not fit the time frame”.
Christine my point about Deeb giving the girls more than weed is that the girls from the Home were well aware they could get pills, black mollies, speed whatever from Deeb. Is this correct?
To my knowledge he only gave black mollies to me and I think Gayle. it was a prescription diet pill that he had to try and lose weight. He did not give them out like he gave out joints. Joints he gave to any girl that showed interest in him.
Christine you have told me when David and Clifford got together they would go and start fights. Is it possible that somewhere along the line they may have gotten into some altercation with Kenneth and/or some of his friends before the night of the murders?
The reason I ask this is Gayle Kelly one time asked me if I was aware of what David had done to her friends Lisa Kader and Bobby Brem. I replied I was aware of what he had done to Lisa Kader but I had never heard anything about David ever doing anything to Bobby Brem. I asked her was she just mixing up names because I knew about the Darwin Pack incident. I thought maybe she was mixing up Bobby with Darwin, she never replied. So the question remains and with what you have said about how David and Clifford acted when they got together it looks like the scenario of an earlier confrontation could be possible.
David and Clifford would go out in search of fights with African American men. One night the picked a fight with one such gentlemen at a pool hall. The fight ended with David being stabbed in the neck. Clifford brought him to Juanita’s house. it was not serious enough for stitches but there was a lot of blood. This happened in March or April of 1982 to the best of my recollection. Again this was related to the White supremacy. It was strange that David hung with the two Melindez brothers. But when they were not around Clifford and David would talk about white power. To my knowledge they did not go to pick fights with latino’s. Again acting tough but that day they got their butts kicked. And that is the story of when and why David started carrying a pocket knife.
I would like to explain my interest in Christine’s suicide attempt, I’m not trying to be insensitive. As Christine knows when I first asked her about it I was under the impression it took place in November 1981 after a rather horrifying night. David had tied her up and dragged her behind his truck, Christine tried to get away only to return. I thought this was what caused her to decide to take her life. My question about that was if the blood that was found in David’s car was Christine’s blood from her suicide attempt as it has been reported many times, I wondered how that could be because David didn’t have his car at the time, he had a truck, which is obvious because he tied Christine to it. Christine informed me that wasn’t when she had attempted suicide, she placed her suicide attempt after the murders but before she left David which she puts as July 20th. so we are talking a time space of a week. She remembered they got into a fight and she left and then returned the next day to collect her belongings. When I asked her about this she couldn’t remember what the fight was about and she can’t remember when or what caused her to try suicide. Again I don’t want to sound insensitive but as law enforcement officers say, “The police don’t believe in coincidences”.
By Christine’s own account she got into a fight with David the same night Patti Deis’ apartment was first broken into. Somewhere in that same time period, again Christine is not clear, Christine cut open her arm and did not get proper medical attention so there are no medical records, her step father patched her up. Whomever broken into Patti’s apartment also cut themselves when they broke the window to get in. Coincidence? Maybe but it is worth asking if nothing more than to discount this possibility.
This is what happens when a investigation is prematurely suspended or the detectives fail to follow up all leads, questions get left unanswered and then those questions remain unanswered for decades and the longer they go unanswered the harder it’s to find the answers. Think about if Detective Salinas had followed up on David’s parole officer’s call, which occurred shortly after the murders, that he believed David knew something about the murders and Salinas went to pay David a visit, maybe he would have seen Christine and if she had any injury he could have asked her about it then. Christine wasn’t contacted by any officers until Truman Simons called her late the night of September 14th. Salinas found that Patti’s apartment was broken into on July 20th and saw the blood. Then finally the police find out about the insurance policies. If they started to believe that these insurance policies had something to do with the murders and they believed David had something to do with it, regular procedure would have led any officer to ask and conclude if David did this for insurance money, who else could also benefit from this, of coarse the people closest to him, that would include his live in girl friend. And she had a bad cut on her arm at the time. She can say she attempted suicide but she can’t recall any of the details. I’m sorry that’s suspicious. Yes this is purely speculation and conjecture and yes it could be just a coincident and yes it could have just been an accumulation of the abuse that lead her to try to take her life but Christine can”t recall the details so it’s a fair question.
If we believe the truth of what happened in this case hasn’t been told we have to be willing to ask the questions that weren’t asked then, asking the same questions and getting the same answers won’t get us anywhere. This question should have been asked back then and probably would have if the first investigators followed up on all the leads they got but they didn’t. My intention is not to harm or hurt Christine in anyway and I know dredging up all these terrible memories from her past is difficult for her but she is one of the few people that was around many of the central characters during the critical hours of July 13th and July 14th. She was around these same people for months before the murders and the aftermath until she left Waco in August, A clear recollection of that time period from her is invaluable and greatly needed. I think she understands that.
Brian: I did not break into Patti Deis’ home. Would it help you if I sent you a picture of the scar? It no coincidence it was in the time frame. It was a horrible time for me. I am sure there are other victims of violence that at one time or another wanted to end it all.
Christine a few days ago when you were trying to explain to me how things were between you and David you made the comment, ” IMO knowing now what I did not know then”. That’s reasonable you would think that would be the case for anyone, once removed from a situation and with the passage of time, you take a step back, gain a different perspective, looking from the outside and gaining a different understanding of things that were going on in your life and the environment that surrounded you. I would hope that this new self awareness and awakening would not only include your relationship with David but also your work life, what went on around you at the store. And taking that step back and gaining the perspective from the outside you can understand how some one that was always on the outside, like me, could perceive and question things. With that said I would like to talk about Deeb, the girls, David , the store.
Christine you knew Deeb before you went to work for him at the store, you knew him for at least a few months before, even before you knew David. You met Deeb while you were working at the first Taco torch, he would come in for lunch and talk to you. Then you transferred to the second Taco Torch, you were crashing on your manager’s couch and that’s when you met David. Is this all correct so far? I want you to clear up any inconsistencies I may be repeating, I’m only going my what’s in the police reports and testimony.
I take it somewhere along the line you became aware of feelings Deeb had for Kabenna Reed, I know at some point you knew whom Kabenna was. Kabenna stated she knew Deeb for about two years before the murders occurred, so she was in the picture before you met Deeb. From what I have read Deeb didn’t have much of a social life, didn’t have a lot of friends, didn’t go out much. Pretty much he went to work, hung out at Kareem and Lisa’s place, they lived across the street, he would crash on their couch regularly and in between that it looked like he spent most of his time stalking Kabenna. Again is this correct? This was well before Gayle Kelly came into the picture. Christine you were aware of Deeb’s immigration status? If so when did you first become aware? He was in America on a student visa, which stipulated he had to be in school, which he wasn’t doing at the time. His solution to this problem was to try to find a girl that would marry him so he could get his citizenship parers. He offered girls $500 to marry him. Are you aware if he started doing this before he opened the store? Earlier you stated that Deeb would give weed to any girls that showed interest in him, I would say that statement is a little off. Deeb would give weed to any girls at the school and he would ask any girl to marry him, maybe you were not aware of this at the time but a number of girls from the Home said this was the case including Lisa Kader and Dolores Perez. They said he would ask any girl and offer to pay $500. So there was a difference between any girls he would proposition and give weed to and then girls like Kabenna and Gayle where he had a stronger affection for. Correct?
So from your perspective had Deeb’s life changed much from the time you first met him while you worked at Taco torch and the time you went to work for him at the store, which you testified was March but there was some question that it could have been May. Other than opening the store Deeb’s life hadn’t changed all that much, he was still stalking Kabenna and still trying to find some one to marry him. Correct? Christine you stated earlier you didn’t know Deeb to be a drug dealer and I would have to say the record would support that. When some of the kids that went to school with Kenneth were questioned none knew they could get drugs or weed from Deeb, only the kids from the Home knew this, so whatever dealing Deeb did was exclusively to the kids at the home. I would add this is not the case with the Melendez brothers, a number of the kids said they knew the Melendez brothers from selling weed at the high schools.Christine what conclusions to you think can be made from this. From an outsider’s point of view I can tell you, it looked like Deeb was trying to find some one to marry him before he opened the store but there doesn’t seem to be any drug dealings, not saying he sold drugs, before he opened the store and came into contact with a certain isolated group of kids, the girls from the Home. Feel free to add anything to this.
Now getting to David for a minute, I guess we can say at the time you were not aware for most part whom David hung out and what he did with them. But I have recently made you aware the girls knew David before the store opened, Gayle and Rhonda both told me this. They knew him from partying out at the lake/ Gayle said this happened a lot more than was testified to in court. She added David and the Melendez brothers were always trying to befriend the girls. I take it that when the girls went out to the lake to party and needed party supplies, beer, weed, drugs David and the brothers were there to take care of their wants. I guess that can be questioned. But Christine you knew back then that David drank heavy did drugs and I’m not talking about popping a couple pills like black mollies, or white crosses, or pink footballs, or 357’s or any other pills you could find floating around any high school back during that time, I talking crack, shooting up. You have also stated he couldn’t keep a job and he never had any money. Christine the obvious question would be how did he afford his habit. Christine don’t want to sound degrading but I don’t see a Taco Torch or Rainbow Drive-in pay check as enough to cover your regular needs as a couple and on top of that pay for a alcohol and drug habit which again you state he was doing all the time. Christine don’t you think it is obvious he was doing something to get some money to feed his addictions?
Christine how would you describe the relationship between David and Deeb? I know I’ve asked you before if you knew where David or Deeb got the drugs they did or gave away,you told me you didn’t know. You don’t think they were growing and manufacturing their own do you? And knowing both guys as you did, between the two whom do you think would have had the better drug connections? For me that is simple I’m going with the guy with the drug habit over the guy that didn’t have much of a social life and didn’t have a history with drugs. Christine do think the kids just started coming into the store and asking for weed without having any reason to believe before hand they could get some or is it more likely that some one initiated this. Like some one at the store knew they could get weed or drugs from some one at the store? And if this was the case whom do you think this could have been? Again I can give you the simple answer, since the girls knew David from partying at the lake and David was hanging out at the store, when these same girls started coming into the store and saw David they knew he could hook them up. Sounds logical at least to me but Christine what do you think about that?
So in my scenario, here we have his guy David just hanging out, not working, partying with teenage girls and then we have Deeb can’t even pay a girl to marry him and we know Deeb went to David when he wanted to wreck his car and if you believe they are guilty of these murders which I do, then we know Deeb went to David to take care of Gayle and Kenneth, I would say it looks like Deeb went to David for a lot of things Deeb didn’t know how to handle or deal with himself and I would say that would include how to get the attention of the girls like David did and that put in Deeb’s head he should start to be the good time guy where the girls could get the beer and weed and pills they wanted. And some girls took advantage of this. Christine I realize you probably didn’t take notice of this at the time but looking back now can you see this is how it could have been?
Christine let’s get back to Kabenna, Gayle and to a lesser degree Dana. So the offer of $500 and giving weed Deeb did was to any girl he could ask but we know it was different with Kabenna and Gayle. Can we even start to calculate how far he would go for these girls? Deeb had been working on Kabenna for about two years, the paid her rent, her car payment, any of her bills, bought her things, he even bought her a ring, anything she wanted, you told me you thought her taste were more expensive than Gayle’s, so Kabenna took Deeb for all she could and in return she went out with Deeb a couple times. Things weren’t quite as drastic with Gayle, one thing she was living at the Home when they first met so she didn’t need as much but he or they would try to change that but again Deeb probably would have done anything for her. Then when Dana came along, she moved to Waco in June 1982, Deeb started showing her the same treatment.
Things got to the point with Kabenna, she would finally call the please on Deeb, there weren’t the stalking laws back then that we have today so I guess it was some harassment charge, she decided to drop the charges once Deeb was arrested for the murders, Deeb was hanging around her apartment late at night just sitting in the parking lot watch her apartment all hours of the night. Deeb told her he didn’t want her to see other guys and anytime she did Deeb showed up, so she was afraid to even go out with anyone. We have a similar thing with Dana, Deeb threatened to blow up her and her boyfriend Steve if Dana didn’t stop seeing him, if Deeb couldn’t have her nobody could. Dana would later marry Steve.
Then we have Gayle, Christine you are aware she had a boyfriend at the time, Henry? She would marry him some time later but it was a serious relationship at the time, Gayle had told many people Henry was the guy she was going to marry. So Christine the question becomes as Deeb’s history shows when he became obsessed with a girl he went after their relationships or whom they were dating. This is not the case with Gayle, we hear of no threats, Deeb doesn’t make any kind of threats about Gayle seeing Henry but for some reason he is uncontrollably enraged with her friendship with Kenneth. Christine could you explain or help me understand this? Past behavior is the best determining factor is predicting some one’s future behavior, going by Deeb’s past behavior he would have reacted to Gayle’s relationship with Henry but he does not, he goes after Kenneth. Why? To me it tells me the problems Deeb had with them was over something else. Christine do you have any thoughts of what that could be? Is it fair to say Gayle could have talked Deeb into giving her anything she wanted? Maybe something he was planning on get paid back on? Christine in September of last year Gayle responded to one of my messages with this reply, well this is part of it, “See this exactly why I never did interviews not only did vic frazzelll lie alot stuff never was made public including my previous encounters with David,I never did pills,but Jill did,we all smoked pot,so I made it my business to hustle Deeb.but the joke really was on me”. Christine what do you think she meant by that?
Christine, looking back now do you have a different perspective and understanding?
I find it highly unlikely that David and the Melendez brothers where hanging out with the kids prior to the murders at the lake. Because they had a following out in Nov 1981. And by their own accounts they had not seen David in the months prior too. And not to mention your hero Simons tracked their whereabouts in the months prior to the murders and found this to be the case also. This is also collaborated by me. I know.. I know …you are rolling your eyes thinking…. well we all could have been lying.
IMO – no kid other than other than the kids that were fed suggestive information by Simons has stated that David or the brothers hung out at the lake. Nor was there any talk in the store between myself and any kid including Gayle that suggested that that they knew David in any form or in other in any capacity – other than casual verbal contact at the store. Not once did Gayle or any kid from the home come in and say “hay David got any weed? Hay David thanks for hanging with us at the lake last weekend.” And not once was the Melendez brothers names mentioned by David in a positive way from November 1981. Matter of fact David would say he would mess them up if he ever seen either of them again.
Gayle never mentioned to Deeb or anyone at Rainbow that she had a boyfriend. She played him well. She flirted and strung him on. Do you believe Deeb would have gotten an apt for her if he knew she had a boyfriend? Again his past behavior would answer that question. I think she is making these statements now because she did not want her husband to know how manipulating she was. So of course when he found Kenneth and her kissing or making out at the apt he had just got for her – he got mad. So she was not just playing Deeb… if she indeed had a boyfriend she was playing every man/boy she knew.. The only boyfriend she had to my knowledge was DEEB. Gayle worked a few hours at the store during this time frame. I was there when Deeb gave Gayle black mollies. I was there when she would come on to DEEB. I was there when she signed the insurance policy that state that DEEB was her common law husband. Don’t forget she did not correct the error when the insurance guy asked about their relationship.
About the pills – she may have been getting them for Jill not herself. I cannot say I witnessed her swallowing the pills. Deeb did not give or sell weed to Kenneth to my knowledge. He only gave it to the girls. Which goes with what others have said and testified to. So I do not see any of events having anything to do with Kenneth owing Deeb drug money. Again another story that was FED to the brothers by Simons and/or the DA IMO.
Kenneth did not interact with David like you would think a teen would that was at the time buying drugs from someone. At least that I ever witnessed. Matter of fact by all accounts not just mine – Kenneth and David only knew each other in passing if they knew each other at all.
Deeb was giving girls weed before I started working at the Rainbow. And that was before he met David. I knew Deeb for at least a year if not two before the Rainbow. He worked in Hewitt. I worked the evening shift at Taco Torch as I was in high school. He would come into the Taco Torch on Hewitt drive a lot for his dinner. He ordered the same thing every time. Bake potato with Taco meat and nacho cheese.
Christine, you doubt David and the Melendez brother hung out at the lake. You are missing two critical points Gayle never said they were hanging out together, she just recalls seeing them at the lake. Second we are talking before the store opened which could include before the November fall out. Remember Rhonda left the Home before the store opened, she never returned to the Home after she ran away with Jill in January, so when she met David at the lake it was prior to then. Are you telling me you believe both girls are lying. I would ask why? Gayle believes David, the Melendez brothers and Deeb are guilty. Rhonda on the other hand holds some affection for David and at least would like to believe he is innocent. I don’t see them lying about this same fact. Gayle is just pointing to the fact that she knew David better than was presented in court. Rhonda is saying she doesn’t believe David would have killed the kids because they were friends from partying with them at the lake. Same story different perspectives.
Christine nothing as been collaborated by you that’s the problem. When Deal says you were at the apartment July 21, you say no that’s wrong. When Doris Tucker says you got into an argument with Deeb at the store in August over money he owed David for something that he did for Deeb that you claimed would have put them away for life. Again your reply and recollection is no that’s not how that happened or how the argument went. When Truman Simons says he didn’t get any information from you and you were just asking questions, as you expect from some one that is trying to be deceitful and trying to get information so they can craft their answers around the information the police have. You say that’s not how that first meeting went. And the documentation of that day would support Simons version. He wasn’t getting anything from you, so it was decided to place you under hypnosis to see what they could get from whatever was in that mind of yours. We don’t have to believe Simons, the officer that conducted the hypnosis session, Luedke, put it in the files. Then we have the interview Salinas and Baier had with you in the Spring of 83, the one you would testify to that the officers had inaccurately typed up what you said. Christine do you see the common element here? Anytime your name is brought up in connection with this case, all the other people are wrong, never you, I wonder what the odds of that being possible could be. Definitely no collaboration.
You stated, ” IMO – no kid other than other than the kids that were fed suggestive information by Simons has stated that David or the brothers hung out at the lake.” Again you would be wrong there is Rhonda Evans, she never talked to Truman Simons for one. And we should look at what some of the kids said to other officers long before Simons took over the case. I will get to that later. You said there wasn’t any talk between you and Gayle about her knowing David in any capacity other than contact in the store. I think you have repeatedly said you really never talked to Gayle. So if you never really talked to Gayle, how would she be telling you how she knew David? Or now do you want to change your recollections?
I wasn’t trying to say Deeb ever gave Kenneth anything, that was my point. Gayle could get anything from Deeb, when other friends probably couldn’t. Deeb would have been the perfect target or you can see how the kids thought so, if they ripped him off what could he do, he couldn’t go to the police, he was too weak and a push over to take care of his own business. How far could have Gayle taken things?
Kenneth and David both hung out at Pinocchio’s pool hall as did Clifford Oliver, John Arnett, Todd Childers, Cal Frazier, the Gutierrez brothers and the Melendez brothers, you honestly believe they never had any contact?
Kabenna: No she was not like the others. Yes she had and demanded more stuff. Yes Deeb would sit outside her apt late at night watching. He was like a puppy dog.
I am happy to hear that Dana is doing well.
As far as Gayle’ statement about the joke was on her – it is my feeling that she is talking about the life insurance policy and how easy it was for Deeb to talk about killing her. The whole time she was playing Deeb it was indeed Deeb playing her. But I do not feel that the policy was taken out with the intent to have her killed. Keep in mind at the time Gayle worked for the store. Deeb understood English very well. And he was book smart. And it was explained to him and her that if she got hurt it would pay up for her missing work. Kinda like Aflac is now. It is my belief that he took it out trying to look like he was her knight in shining armor. He was setting her up in an apt Because she and he planned to live together and Deeb hoped to get her to marry him.
And her statement about Vic….. ummmm…… did you ever think that just maybe that the LE and DA did lie to her? hummmm was the Melendez brother the only ones that claimed that they were promised freedom or reduced sentences to go along with the ever changing stories? And who was it that ignored other law enforcement officers leads/evidence and convicted the wrong person in the Juanita White case. Simons and Vic worked hand in hand. And you talk about no coincidence. Look at how Vic evolved. The drugs the lifestyle…… And your statement about one’s past actions reflect how it will be in the future….. or something like that. the link below details so many similarities to the handling of the the lake waco murders. IMO http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=3720
Okay I am ready for my next character bashing and the next questions.
Christine how do you think L.E. or the D.A. lied to Gayle? I know what she was telling me about that, she was saying she knew it wasn’t a case of mistaken identity and she told them about the interaction between the girls from the Home and David, so Simons and Feazell would have known this prior to going to trial. Rhonda would repeat the same thing though she never said she talked to law enforcement. That was one of my questions to her because when she originally talked to the police she never said anything to them, she said she was afraid to talk at that time because she was a run away. When I pointed out that she wasn’t a run away when the police came to talk to her she was in the foster home, that’s when she didn’t want to talk anymore. So I really can’t say whom she talked to but she told me she talked, talked and talked and no one would listen. She mentioned Brian Pardo, so I take it she talked to some one working with Mr. Pardo when he was involved in the case.
Christine you said Gayle worked at the store, again this is a new revaluation. Up to now the story has been Deeb offered Gayle a job, that was the plan when she returned from Fort Worth or where ever she ran away to but then that’s when they had their falling out and she never went to work for him. Again would you like to correct that story? You say Deeb caught Gayle and Kenneth making out, again this is new. I would also point out, you and Kareem were the only two to say Deeb caught them together and that’s why Gayle left the apartment. Both Kareem’s wife Lisa and Dana Diamond said Deeb kicked out Gayle because she was having parties at the apartment. Lisa even testified she went to the apartment the night Deeb kicked out Gayle and witnessed this. I know you have been reading the testimony, you will see this because it was a very important moment. Deeb’s attorney had successfully been able to keep Deeb’s drug dealings with the kids out of the courtroom, this was during one of his pre-trial motions. But now there were witnesses saying that Deeb didn’t like kids taking drugs and drinking alcohol, it was against his religious beliefs and he was so morally opposed to it, the D.A. said wait a minute I can prove he wasn’t so morally opposed to it because he was supplying the alcohol and drugs to the kid and with that he was allowed to bring in testimony about Deeb’s activities. So Christine whom was trying to push Vic’s and Simons’ story then, Vic wasn’t even handling the case then, it was Lane.
Whatever was the cause for the falling out between Gayle and Deeb, we know the problem between Kenneth and Deeb had started long before this. Gayle and Jill both worked at Fort Fisher for some time. When Gayle ran away the time Deeb drove her where she wanted to go, this was right before she would move into the apartment, she never went back to at the Fort. We know Jill stopped working at the Fort before she returned home, she had been home about 3 weeks before the murders. We know Gayle signed the insurance policy on June 22nd, so this had to be during the time her and Deeb were still getting along and was after she had returned to Waco from her little sojourn. That puts mid to early June as the latest she could have worked at the Fort. From the girls supervisor at the fort, again not some one that talked to Simons she talked to Baier in November after Simons had left the police department, she tells him that Deeb would come out and see Gayle and she remember one time Gayle, Jill and Deeb were having a heated discussion about Kenneth ranks, Deeb became agitated. Christine this was well before the apartment, have any ideas what this could have been about. Do you want us to believe that Deeb would get so worked up that he would run off and cause a scene because some kid called him a name or flipped him off?
You question if Gayle had a boyfriend at the time and/or if Deeb knew of this. Christine are you aware more girls from the home testified for the defense than they did the state and they all pretty much had the same story, Gayle and Henry were in love and some of these girls had told Deeb this over and over. I guess they thought he was a nice guy and they hated seeing him waste his time and money. So Christine you want to say this is all fed to these girls by Simons, so I guess Gayle marrying this guy was just so she could keep Simons story looking real! Christine I know you seriously dislike Truman SImons but you can’t allow that to blind your judgment. I have admitted I defend Simons on many things but I do so because he looks right.
Christine you keep saying this is stuff Simons was feeding the witnesses or feeding them, what do you mean by that? Truman Simons’ view or theory he was pushing is that it was a case of mistaken identity. That it didn’t have anything to do with drugs, the other officers thought this was the reason, mainly because when the other officers brought up Kenneth’s name the kids mentioned he was into drugs, either selling or indulging himself, he owed people money for drugs. I think Truman is wrong on this I believe there was a drug connection. You asked me once what my thoughts were and this is basically it. Kenneth ripped off Deeb in some way probably with the aid of Gayle. Deeb wanted revenge but couldn’t do it by himself so he got a third party involved, which I would think David helped arrange. Maybe it was some one that already had a problem with Kenneth over earlier deals, maybe the Melendez brothers maybe Clifford Oliver. And they all thought they would be taken care of with the insurance policy. They wanted to kill Kenneth but they had to kill Gayle for the pay off and Deeb became ok with that once they had their falling out.
Jill’s mother sensed something was wrong with Jill before she left to go to Waco. Jill started acting somber and moody and wouldn’t talk after Kenneth had called Jill on the Sunday night before. Jill had asked her mother that night, what should she do when she was in love with some one she knew was trouble The day of July 13th both Jill and Raylene are cashing checks, it looks like they are trying to get up money for something, Deeb tells a number of people they came to the store that day. Christine there is just too much out there that points to the kids just didn’t accidentally run into their eventual killers by chance. That’s not what Truman Simons is pushing.
.Regarding”I think you have repeatedly said you really never talked to Gayle. So if you never really talked to Gayle, how would she be telling you how she knew David? Or now do you want to change you recollections?”
————————————————————————————————————————-
Again I notice you don’t like what I say so you deflect ———————-
So let me make this clear to you again __________________ what I said was that I had no personal interactions with Jill or with Raylene. I knew Gayle only thought the store. If you misunderstood or if I said the name Gayle instead of Jill I apologize. I have recounted may instances when Gayle was in the store to you…. including being there when she signed the Accident policy. I taught her to use the register. I was there many times when she would come in to visit Deeb. And when she would come in and get pot from Deeb. The Mollies…. He would give her free stuff. What I have also been clear to you is that neither Kenneth or Gayle had been in the store (while I was there) from the day Deeb kicked her out and that even after the murders Gayle did not come in. I do recall one day Kenneth driving though the parking lot and flipping Deeb off. He did not stop he just did a “drive by flip off”. This was after Gayle was kicked out of the apt. And that I do not recall if Jill or Raylene stopped by that day. Kenneth would not have come into the store.
So you want me to believe or do you have proof that Deeb was selling to anyone? Unless there were others that have come forward at the time of the murders that Deeb was a dealer am I not going to buy into that. Or are you are selling a story that Kenneth was Deeb’s only distributer for pot? Why don’t you go one step further and accuse me, Kareem and Lisa? After all Lisa went to Mexico to see her sick mother! The only way you can make this scenario work is to put us all in the mixer. Square peg in a round hole…. Kenneth’s drug activity is just that….HIS DRUG ACTIVITY. I am not defending Deeb I am just stating I was there 40 hours a week and at no time was there any signs that deeb was dealing to anyone. You have shown me nothing to prove he ever did. To my first hand knowledge he only gave pot the girls.
From my first had knowledge = Gayle stated to all of us at the rainbow that Deeb was her boyfriend they were going to live together. Deeb got her an apt and she moved in. History tells us (Cabina) that he was know to get or furnish money for living quarters for his woman. I do know that when Deeb caught Kenneth and Gayle kissing as per his direct statements to me (I have no first hand knowledge or statements made about her being kicked out for a party at the apt) Deeb was angry and he kicked Gayle out because he thought she was cheating on him as they were a couple. What she stated to her friends or other boyfriend(s) is not within my knowledge. It is highly probable that she acted one way with her friends and acted totally different with Deeb and us at the rainbow. Why in the world would Deeb go visit her at fort fisher? To check up on his girlfriend or to just hang with 16 year old girls? My common since would tell me he was checking up on his girlfriend the same way he did Cabina. Again his past actions are directly related to his future actions… I knew he went out to see her at fort fisher several times IMO it was not to take her a snicker bar to share with her other boyfriend. But I do not know what they talked about because I was not there. I can only tell you what I seen, and what Deeb stated and to her statements and interactions at the Rainbow.
you keep asking for my first hand accounts because I was there. But when I tell you, you have the same knack as Simons. If it does not fit with what you think happened no matter what facts you are given – you disagree or chose to put blinders on or instead of proving it (give me links to testimony or evidence) you post something that makes the other person look bad. Its called deflecting…. its something that poppas asses do to make themselves feel better.
I have admitted that I could have the mixed up two instances with clifford’s friends and the brothers on the morning of the 14th. I have cannot recall the reason I attempted suicide.
I keep trying to help you.
I have no illusions that David was beneath anything that happened – the murders or the rapes after the murders. Nor have I sugar coated what was happening during that time frame. Have I refused to talk to you when you insult me and allude to my involvement during or after the fact?
As for one reason why I feel that Simons/DA was feeding people information – until I read the confession testimony I did not doubt that the Melendez brothers were guilty. Their accounts do not match nor do they add up. Hell they did not even know where David lived .. we had moved out over a month before.. they did not have contact with David or each other so the only ones that could have fed them the stories is…… drum roll……… you figure it out!
the way you can normally tell if a confession is cohorts is the story changes over time to fit the circumstances that LE wanted them to tell the jury. Again you cannot have it both ways. Either their stories are true or they were fed to them slowly as new things arise over time. Hence Gilberts says it was mistaken identity. Tony says a drug deal or money owed to a 3ed party.
Its either one or the other or if it was a combination of both then their stories would have matched from the beginning.
Christine it doesn’t have to be one or the other, any crime can be committed for a number of reasons and this is more common when there are more than one perpetrator and no their stories don’t have to match for many reasons. One they aren’t telling the truth, they are describing the events from their point of view which would be different, they could have been totally wasted and really just can’t remember all the details, all these are viable possibilities. About giving you links, I gave you the links and you are reading the testimony so you have been to the sites.
Christine now you are saying they didn’t know where David lived, last week you were saying it didn’t make sense that they would have dropped David’s car at his mother’s, whom is trying to have it both ways. You keep saying the brothers didn’t have any contact from the time of their November fall out. You said the other day that they say this in their testimony, they don’t, Tony says he hasn’t seen his brother in some time but when he get’s with David, David tells him he’s going to see Gilbert. Gilbert at some point says David had brought up the Deeb problem a couple days before the murders, so David and Gilbert would definitely be hanging out together then. And then we have your usual inability to help clear this up. You went to the park with the three in Gilbert’s truck sometime that Summer but you can’t recall when. Either it was before the murders, which would again point to the brothers hanging out together again before the murders or it happened afterwards but you can’t answer that simple question. Not trying to make it fit either way, so I’m not disagreeing with you I’m just pointing out that again you have trouble with the truth whatever it is. You are being dishonest when you say I disagree with you when it doesn’t fit what I think. Christine when you repeatedly told me the Melendez brothers were the people that came to your apartment with Clifford that night, what did I tell you? I told you I wanted that to be true but I wanted you to be sure, I wanted the truth I didn’t want to bend the facts to go along with my narrative, I repeated this to you over and over, so now you are trying to say I’m not looking for the truth but just want things to fit my narrative? Do you remember these conversations we had, if not I still have the messages.
Christine I will repeat this again, this is what I mean when I say you are being difficult, I don’t think Deeb was a drug dealer and have said this over and over. But Knowing girls like Gayle and Kabenna could get pretty much anything they wanted from Deeb I can see Gayle going to Deeb asking for him to front her a few ounces so Kenneth could sell. Wanting to impress Gayle with his money which looks like he tried to do he agreed to do this, planning to get paid back from putting this much money out. Kenneth didn’t pay Deeb back. When Deeb realized Kenneth wasn’t going to pay him back, he went to Gayle, thinking he and her were closer that was the case trying to get her to get Kenneth to pay him back, argument at Fort Fisher. After this Gayle decides to take off to stay out of the middle of it. But Deeb still trying to impress her sets her up with the apartment, offers her a job, takes out the insurance policy. Then he finds Kenneth and Gayle are hanging out and that causes the fall out between Gayle and Deeb, then Gayle refuses to see Deeb, with that he’s had enough and he starts to put his plan together but how can he get to Kenneth and Gayle both of them are are avoiding him by this time he needs to find away to draw them out. Knowing that they ripped him off on a drug deal what better way to get their interest again but he needs a third party. An unknown third party makes contact with Kenneth they could make some big money, hence Gayle Kelly’s statement during her first interview with the police. The third party has to tell Kenneth he is connected to Deeb in some way, that way when Kenneth sees Deeb or people associated with Deeb (David) Kenneth won’t become alarmed. This third party informs Kenneth that he is aware of the problem that exists between Kenneth and Deeb and that needs to be resolved before he can deal with Kenneth, can’t start dealing with some one you know already owes another guy money for some weed. Now with this Kenneth has to find a way to fix things up with Deeb he needs money. That would be the Sunday night call to Jill and Jill’s reaction afterward. Hey Jill still had feelings for Kenneth and wanted to help him but she was worried about it but she agrees to help. Jill and Raylene try to get enough money together to take care of the problem. They go to the store to pay off Deeb. Now this has put a wrinkle in Deeb’s plan he didn’t see Kenneth turning to Jill but now he knows Jill is aware of what’s going on, he can’t let those girls leave Waco, Deeb tells Jill that he wants to deal with Gayle and Kenneth, Jill isn’t aware Deeb is planning to kill anybody, so she tells him she will get up with Kenneth and Gayle, this is why Deeb would later say Gayle was suppose to be with them. Jill contacts Kenneth tells him what has happened and he needs to be present. The girls pick him up and go to the park with the plan to meet Deeb. But Deeb has sent David and company when David arrives he tells the kids Deeb has sent him to come get them and they all get into David’s car believing they are going to see Deeb and take care of the problem, they don’t know Deeb has planned to take care of this problem by kiling them. The killers split the money the girls had, there was never really any drug deal it was just a set up. But Gayle wasn’t there they still need to take care of her, hence the break-ins but then with Kenneth out of the picture Gayle and Deeb make up until he confesses he killed the kids. Christine I know there are some wholes in this theory but it’s more sound than any other I’ve heard. Christine why kill Kenneth that night when he was with so many other people and made the task that much more difficult why not just wait for another day when he was alone or was definitely with Gayle? They couldn’t let Jill and Raylene return home they could talk.
Christine now I’m going to show you some of the police reports and what some of the kids said about Kenneth and his drug activity. I will start with Mike Nicoletti’s report for his first interview with Gayle Kelly on July 20th.
Kenneth Franks had made the comment to Gayle Kelly that they would be coming into a lot of money soon because of the fact Kenneth had begun a new partnership with a subject he referred to as a new dealer and that he did not wish to give the new dealer’s name for her safety. Gayle Kelly tried to get the name from Kenneth Franks however Franks’ only comment was that Gayle Kelly knew who the subject was however he did not want to name him and he was a dealer who had left Waco and come back recently.
On July 15th Jill and Kenneth’s case worker at the Home. Mary Bellheimer, talked to officers from both the Waco Police Department and the Waxahachie Police Department. Officer Porterfield from Waco went to the Home at approximately 9:00 a.m. that morning. Then Captain Sullins from Waxahachie talked with Ms. Bellheimer approximately at 10:15 am., at this time Mary told the Captain she had received information that Kenneth was dealing dope. Captain had also gotten information from Jill’s parent that Jill supposedly was suppose to meet a new speed freak in Waco. .
. On July 16th Salinas talked with former Methodist Home resident Kenneth Adkisson. This subject knew both Jill and Kenneth and he did not believe Jill would have gotten into a car with some one she didn’t know. He also stated he knew Kenneth Franks was involved in drugs. took speed and smoked a lot of grass. Franks had a habit of smoking grass from between $80 and $150 a week and that they were paying anywhere between $80 and $120 an ounce and Franks would smoke or give away one or two ounces a week. Adkisson remembered Franks getting into an altercation with a white male about two months before, the white male told Franks if he didn’t pay him the $150 he owed him he was going to get him taken care of. The information from Mary Bellheimer, Captain Sullins and Kenneth Adkisson can be found on Salinas’ report for July 17th. Another former Methodist Home resident Mike Sutton would tell a similar story as Adkisson, this is in Salinas’ July 20th report. So Christine there are a few accounts I think you get the picture.
This is the stuff that just disappeared when Simons took over the case, he wasn’t interested in any drug connection, he was more interested in Deeb’s strange behavior in how he treated young girls like Kabenna, Gayle and Dana. This is what Simons pushed and then the mistaken identity theory and this is what Gayle is talking about. Vic and Simons wanted her to say and she did on the stand that she didn’t know David and had only seen him two times, once at the store and once at the lake. She knew this wasn’t true she knew the interactions she and the other girls from the Home had with David out at the lake prior to July 13th, 1982. And it’s these encounters that haven’t become public, well at least not yet but I’m working on that!
Christine not too long ago I asked you how could it be possible that you never heard David or Deeb talk about the murders when it seemed they were willing to talk about it or allude to it to so many other people. Your response is they didn’t talk around you, I guess they were back playing Ms. Pacman and you were busy doing your job, if this is the case then common sense would dictate there could have been many other things they talked about you weren’t aware of and I would further think you didn’t see everybody they talked to during the day and wouldn’t know anything about these conversations either, not the subject matter nor the participants.
I see you brought up the Juanita White case, Christine each case if different, you should not confuse the facts and issues of one case with the other. This is the common approach of those that don’t have anything more than accusations, allegations and innuendo, they can’t produce evidence, facts nor reasonable or sensible arguments in one case so they try to point to another case, classic bait and switch, very weak. Doesn’t answer any of the questions left with this case.
I am sure there are many thing that David did that I was not aware of. And yet you have put it out there that I must of know about the murders. again I say to you… you cannot have your cake and eat it to. Either it was a blotched murder for hire as Simon’s went after at first or it was a drug deal gone bad that would involve the Brothers and David. But to have two different scenarios play out by the Brothers over the course of these trials is just poor police work and it leaves too may loose ends that do not connect.
I want to see evidence that any other teen beside Gayle and her friends witnessed David and/or the brothers at the lake partying with all the teens and that would prove to me that this is not a planted or made up story.
On any given night that park was a known hangout for teens from central and north Waco. Whereas midway park was a hang out for Midway and Lorena teens. It was nothing to see 60 or more kids partying together at that park on any given evening. And both parks was policed every night by patrol cars because it was a hang out for teens to get drink and smoke weed. Heck they even at one time – gated one entry to speegleville park for this exact reason. Seriously (rolling my eyes here) you don’t think that not one patrol officer would think that David or the brothers would stood out enough to take note or that they would have remembered seeing him/them.
Come on… how many people seen and remembered the white truck with red lettering? That man stood out because he was not the age bracket or the type of person that would be seen at that park during that time frame. Sure lots of people went to the lake old and young yes… but from 8- midnight you would see mostly teens partying. And if David was getting girls drunk it would have been public knowledge…. not just the kids that hung with Gayle… but other high school age kids from all walks of life.
If David frequented the park as you are now stating – there would be 50 or 60 witnesses that Simons/DA would have paraded though the trials. It put him at the scene of the kidnapping/crime before the murder. Just like bank robbers that case out a bank. A rapist that stalks their next victim. A robber waiting at the atm for his next pray.
If we can believe Cifford’s account of the next morning at the lake and him seeing some biker duds and remembered that enough to tell police a few days later.(strange since he was at the lake with a claimed biker dud – David) think about how many people would remember seeing David at the lake for weeks prior.
Again I can only speak to what I saw or heard. And at no time was it ever apparent that David was housing, giving alcohol and weed to kids at the home or frequenting the lake. Nor was there any cash laying around that could not be accounted for in our finances before or after the murders.
Remember I told you about David getting cash for sex with the older woman that had the horse ranch. This went on from probably march until AFTER the murders. That is where he got a lot of his drug money. And from the time I started at Rainbow until I quite he purchased most of his beer at the Rainbow. Unless he was going out with Clifford. Then Clifford bought the beer.
As far as this information coming out during the trials – if Gayle and others would have testified about David’s connections to any kids or partying at the lake this would helped the prosecution -showed the court that he did indeed had connections at the lake and went there often. It would have went to his character and not convoluted the murder for hire or drug deal gone bad (as each of the brothers testified differently in their confessions). It puts him at the lake with these and other kids prior to the murders. “Again showing past actions will dictate future actions”. Or however you want to word it. I think that a older biker dud that looked and acted as rough as David Spence would have stuck out like a NUN around all these teens and the patrolling police cars. So IMO this was not brought out because…… it did not fit into “SIMONS SAYS”. The truth is the truth it is not for Simons or Vic to altar the truth. If what Gayle is saying is truth then why hide the fact that the murder was know to be at the lake with underage girls. IMO this would have put a reason as why they were at the park. One brother said they went there to score dope…. From teens or a drug dealer? And now you are saying you have proof that David supplied dope and beer to these same kids but on this night July 13th David and the brothers drove there to go get dope from them? I am sorry…. but that is not believable. IMO
And yes the cases of the lake Waco murders and Juanita Whites are different… and yet the same. It shows that that Simons and the DA tweaked the facts and evidence to suit their own personal beliefs. Picked and choose what they wanted to instead of leaving no stone unturned to insure they convicted the right people. Again Past actions will dictate future actions. If they did this as it was testified to in the Juanita White case – then it would be logical to assume (assume only until disproved) that they played the same tricks in other cases.
Too many of the jail house snitches recanted after finding out their “promised deal” for lying was not upheld by the DA’s office. (one recant is one too many) What did they have to gain from recanting? Did the courts offer them more time off for good behavior. Did someone give them a pack of cigs to recant?
So when I read these reports that Kenneth got into a altercation regarding 150 dollars those witnesses are going to say it was a biker dud that was strung out on dope or drunk… you know the guy that hung out at Rainbow? Please provide me with a link to this police report. There are many police reports on the one site but I want you to provide me with the correct ones for me to read. I want some kind of proof that this altercation can be tied to someone involved with this case. I need that much from you.
I would have known if had been living with a drug dealer, instead I was living with a broke wanna be biker that was abusive and lived hand to mouth feeding off me and his mother.
Christine you want proof I’m trying to get it that’s why I ask questions, yes I have sent questions to one of the boys that reported this to the police. I asked Gayle about it but she never replied. We can’t say one way or the other if there was an altercation and if it is connected that’s why you ask questions. And we have to see if it is just a rumor because the variance in the stories would suggest it was a story that was going around and the details got distorted along the way which happens with rumors. But any information needs to be looked at and considered. What makes this story even more interesting is one boy that mentioned the fight said one of the parties involved was in Bobby Brem’s mother’s car and then 34 years later Gayle is asking me if I knew about what David did to Bobby, that might show the two stories are connected, the details just got mixed up a long the way. You get one or two or a few pieces of information then you see if it fits somewhere And that’s not just with this piece of information you do it with all the information you collect along the way. Now Christine I’m not going to get into everything you said, it would be a waste of time but if there is something specific in your comments you would like me to address let me know. I will explain my reason for this the best I can. When you work a case you start from the inside and work outwards, that means you start with the people closest to those involved and work your way out from there. So when you say people would have reported seeing David at the park weeks before, that’s not true and it really doesn’t mean much. There will be many people whom don’t want to get involved in anyway and won’t say anything. Then there could be people would could say they remember seeing David party with the girls but if they were only observing this from afar it doesn’t really tell us much. people party together all the time, so seeing that doesn’t tell us anything, people observing from afar could not tell us much, they probably didn’t know the relationships of David and the girls,didn’t know anything about them. So there really isn’t anything there. And No Vic wouldn’t have paraded 50 to 60 people to the witness stand to say they saw this. You want your case to be tight as possible, the longer you drag out a case the better chance you have of losing the jury. The Jury wants the details in a compact narrative that makes sense. That’s why you try to keep it to the people that are close to those involved, they give your better bang for the buck, they can supply more detail than any number of strangers. And that’s what I’m trying to get from you and it’s the same reason. Some people that might have seen David in the park cannot give me anywhere as much information that you should be able to supply but for some reason you want to be difficult.
Here’s another I know you can answer Truman, Vic or Lane giving the evidence away that was later found to be degraded and giving in the tapes to Dannon. If a trial was needed for Raylene’s murder in the future all the evidence in this case is useless. It was my understanding that unless they dropped the charges of murder then all evidence must be preserved. There is no time limit its murder and it does not matter if the person was convicted of another murder. Is there a court order that dismisses the murder charges for Raylene?
No the charges still remain on the Raylene homicide. And do you understand why the D.A. did this? In case the brothers decided to recant their testimony, which is common for criminals to do. Some of the stuff you need to read is the Appeals courts’ decisions on David’s appeals, you will see what the courts think about recanted testimony. Christine there really wasn’t any physical evidence used in the first trials, it would be the same thing with Raylene’s case, it would be circumstantial using the same testimony. There would be some differences because some things have changed in Texas since then, the big one I see is now witnesses that were hypnotized can testify, so that means Josie could tell her story to a jury now. I would put you on the stand and throw the book at you because you’re a little shady. No being nice this time, Vic tried to be nice with the brothers the first time around and see what that has gotten him!
Regarding :Some people that might have sen David in the park cannot give me anywhere as much information that you should be able to supply but for some reason you want to be difficult
—————————————————————————————————————————–
again you are defecting.
I’m deflecting? Do I need to repeat all the questions you have failed to answer. Or do you just want to go on some rant about full moons, what some people might or might not have seen weeks before the murders. And really whom tried to plant stories in the teen’s heads? Are you trying to say Vic and Simons tried to plant some story in Gayle’s head so she could say the opposite on the stand? Really that makes sense to you? It looks like you keep bringing up these irrelevant nonsensical things so we don’t get back to more pertinent issues. Can we get back to the last week you lived with David, like the fight which caused you to leave, your suicide attempt, whom and when did you see the night of the murders?
RE:The Jury wants the details in a compact narrative that makes sense.
————————————————————–
Bullshit… the jury wants the most detailed factual account. Someone’s life is in their hands. I would hope they took it seriously. Just because it makes sense based on a compact narrative does not make it truth. That’s like playing name that tune… or reading a review of a book and saying you read the whole thing.
Sister ask any attorney that deals with capital cases, they want their case to move as fast as possible, use the fewest number of witnesses as you possibly can. don’t let the jury start to think you are the reason they are stuck in that court room away from their own lives, families or whatever. During an over extended explanation jurors will lose focus and forget details. Avoid this with a quick comprehensive presentation.
So Christine I would like to stick to what was going on in your life and around you which you would be privy to.I know there are things you don’t remember and don’t want to remember but you are not the only one, Gayle has told me she doesn’t remember some things and apparently she doesn’t want to remember because she told me to stop asking her about stuff she couldn’t remember because she wasn’t going to and apparently Lisa Kader doesn’t want to remember what happened back then. It’s seems David had that effect on a lot of people back then, I find that very telling, I just don’t know what. It’s in these repressed memories where I believe we will find the truth. But as it is now the accounts are very different. Look at the different version you and Gayle have about her dealings with Deeb. Christine you make it sound like Gayle arranged and planned with Deeb about getting the apartment. Here is what Gayle said when I asked her about this,”,I promised nothing to Deeb in exchange for that apt”.Her account is Deeb just offered her the apartment and she took it. Now whom am suppose to believe? Clearly some one’s account is not accurate. And I’m not leaning one way or the other, I just wondering if you knew about whatever arrangement was made maybe there is some one else that would have similar information and then that person might have other information about what was going on that would be useful. Christine would you know of another person that would have this information? I would guess Gayle’s friends would stick with her account.
It’s the same thing with Clifford, Christine your account of David’s and Clifford’s friendship conflicts with what Clifford has stated, I believe Clifford is hiding something, I’m just not sure what. You’ve haven’t been totally clear on this either. Is there some one out there that could support your account?
Christine do you seriously believe I’m insulting you? Here is my problem with some of your accounts they conflict with what other people have said and from personally dealing with you I have seen you go back and forth on things, so your not too sure, I feel that’s a fair assessment. Christine you keep saying you might have two nights mixed up or muddled together, all I’m saying is if you have two nights muddled up you could have any number of nights during that period all mixed up together. For some reason you have a hard time with that. And Christine you do bend things I say, I have never said Deeb was a drug dealer, he gave drugs to a limited number of people. What I’m trying to say, again which you are having a hard time understanding is he would almost do anything for Gayle, so it’s possible and I would say it looks like she took advantage of that. How far would she go? Would she have done something that benefited one of her friends like Kenneth at the cost of Deeb? I say yes. Deeb was gullible he liked spending his money to show off, maybe you can’t see it but he was the perfect target for such a scam. You point out his visits to Fort Fisher, the visits in themselves don’t tell us much, the telling fact about the visits is the argument that happened between Gayle, Jill and Deeb about Kenneth Franks and this was well before whatever happened at the apartment. You don’t see the significance in this? An incident that the supervisor remembered months later and brought it up without being asked. Remind you it doesn’t look like Baier was even aware Gayle worked at Fort Fisher until this conversation. He went there to get information on Jill and in inquiring about Jill the supervisor brought up the fact that Gayle worked there also and during both girl’s time there this incident occurred. My question to you was before the apartment problem were you aware of a problem that Deeb had with Kenneth, a problem big enough that we Deeb would show up to Gayle’s job and cause a scene. Honestly I can’t see it being because Kenneth called him a name or something along those lines.
Getting into the Melendez brother confessions and testimony and what information Truman Simons might or might not have fed them or wanted them to say, I’ve been addressing all my messages to Christine lately and this is for her as well but also for everyone that continues to wonder and question this. We have to remember the original officers that worked the case believe it was drug related that’s the angle they were trying to work. If you talked to Salinas, Nicoletti, Fortune or Horton today they will tell you this. They just had received so much information regarding Kenneth’s activity with drugs it couldn’t be ignored. I believe they were right, what mistake I feel they made was they went after the wrong person, Tab Harper, which they finally realized then gave up. If these stories about Kenneth were true and they had something to do with his murder, I would point to one interview that should have told them if it was drug related it wasn’t Tab Harper. That interview would be the first interview with Gayle Kelly. She reported Kenneth was planning to come into some money on a deal, Kenneth didn’t give her the name of the person Kenneth was going to make the deal with but he told Gayle she knew whom this person was. So Gayle knew the person but didn’t know Kenneth was dealing with him, that would discount Tab Harper, Gayle was aware of Kenneth dealing with Tab, she stated Kenneth said Tab always had the good stuff, so he couldn’t have been the new dealer she wasn’t aware of. But Salinas and Nicoletti to a lesser degree kept on Tab Harper that ended up going nowhere. I feel they were on the right path but looking in the wrong direction.
Then Simons and Baier take over the case, Simons doesn’t believe in the drug connection so all that information just fades from the investigation. Now I believe Simons had the right people but by dismissing the drug angle never found the true story. Then the Melendez brothers come along with their stories, multiple stories and lies. Ok I can see Simons and Vic bending some details. But would Simons get the Melendez brothers to concoct a story where they say it was drug related? The officer that has been trying to prove it wasn’t drug related is now going to get his witnesses to say it was drug related. What are people smoking? I must be smoking the wrong thing because that definitely doesn’t make any sense to me. So if the Melendez brothers came up with this on their own could it be true and if it was true why would they give this detail when they were lying about so many other things?
The Melendez brothers lied in both their confessions and testimony, that can’t be debated. We shouldn’t forget Gilbert was first offered immunity to testify, when the D.A. realized he was lying he removed that offer. But Gilbert was given another chance, which the D.A. didn’t have to do and people want to say Gilbert was railroaded, Vic Feazell did all he could to save Gilbert’s life but Gilbert wanted to play hard head con games. So everyone knew the brothers were lying. The problem becomes trying to cull the truth from the lies but there is probably some truth mixed up with all the lies. One thing I think could be true and it’s not so much because I believe anything Anthony says but because if you look at a map of the area and you were in Speegleville Park there is a pretty good chance that you had to cross a bridge to get back into Waco, so his statement that he threw stuff out of the truck while they were crossing a bridge could be true. But in typical con fashion he doesn’t say what bridge, see that’s how one acts like they are cooperating but in reality are giving away very little.
So what about Gilbert’s confession and/or testimony that David told him they were going to kill the kids because they burned Deeb over a drug deal. Could this be true? I know most of us has probably heard of one rape case or another where the rapist makes remarks about how the victim was dressed or how she acted. O.J., just was granted parole last week, but his reasoning for that crime that guy stole my stuff I was just getting it back. This is called justification, criminals do this to try to minimize or explain their actions. To be criminally responsible for your action you have to understand that your actions are outside the norms of society an criminally insane person would not understand this. So a criminal knows his actions aren’t accepted but even realizes some of his actions can been worse than others/ For instance in this case if David and the Melendez brother just got up with the kids and started partying with them and then the guys couldn’t control their violent urges and just started rapping and stabbing the kids, anyone including the killers would realize they would never see the light of day again, and rightfully so, no matter your stance on the death penalty there’s no way anybody would want these monsters back on the street The criminals answer to this justification. Hey I did this because the victims did that. We see this in Gilbert’s story he believe’s David is planning to kill these kids because they ripped off Deeb. Now I can’t say this is true but I can see it as possible, I would say this was more likely than Simons feeding him this story, again Simons was trying to prove the drug angle and the officers pushing that were wrong, he wouldn’t have added fuel to that fire to support his enemies claims.
Back when Gayle Kelly was still talking to me and she had brought up that she knew David much more than she testified to and Vic Feazell knew this I asked her how could this be possible. It just didn’t add up to me, why not just tell the truth why create this false narrative. She replied,” .Vic frizzell was never in it for the truth, but for the headlines,telling me we could use the truth if it hurt his case”, Interesting to say the least but what can we make of that statement? Truman Simons was the one that started the whole mistaken identity thing and according to Vic’s own tapes he wasn’t sold on Truman’s investigation, his questionable methods or his theory. When did and why did Vic change his mind. As late as September 1983, when Vic is having the jailbirds write their new statements, the focus still looks to be on Kenneth being the target, you do start to see mention that Jill looked like Gayle but you can see this is just being added on like an after thought, yes that is something Simons fed or told the jailbirds to say. So when did Vic decide to go with this argument? I think it could have been when he saw the Melendez brothers’ first confessions. If the brothers believed they were killing the kids that ripped off Deeb, that would have been Kenneth and Gayle not Jill. The brothers’ belief they were killing the girl that ripped off Deeb would have been mistake, they had the wrong girl that is a case of mistaken identity. Fezell’s comment to me is saying we have a back up plan if we get caught on your lies, we can still prove mistaken identity, the Melendez brothers’ story.
Again I don’t know if this is true but it has crossed my mind obviously. Bring on the criticism, I know I plan to hear some craziness from Christine..
Christine was it past your bedtime or did your meds kick in you just disappeared. Anyway Christine, so I think it’s safe to say you are not too sure what went on at the store, I can buy that, especially when it looks like you couldn’t keep track of what was going on in your own place. Earlier I mentioned your trip to the park with David and the Melendez brothers and if you could recall if it was before or after the murders. I will tell you my thinking, I know you are just going to disagree even though you can’t remember. First I look at the time span, you would have had more chances to go to the park before the murders July 3rd until the 12th compared to July 14th until the 20, or 21st, I think you might want to add that extra day when you try to correct your story. Christine you have said many times David didn’t come home many nights during that time, I would say that probably means you don’t know what he was doing those nights. So after the murders we only have a week or eight days, we know where he was a number of those nights. Friday the 16th and Saturday the 17th he stayed at Mrs. Miles, so you couldn’t have gone to the park with David those days. Sunday July 18th was his birthday I know he was still at Mrs. Miles in the morning she fixed David a birthday breakfast. I can’t remember if he stayed that night I will have to look back at the testimony. Monday was the 19th the day you say you and David got into a fight and you left, so you didn’t go to the park with him then. That doesn’t leave to many nights and we still have to fit in your suicide attempt and the parole officer’s visit. Christine is it possible that David spending that weekend and his birthday with Mrs. Miles and her daughters was the reason you attempted suicide? We know you didn’t care for Mrs. Miles and her daughters, Linda and Weida because you believe David was having an affair with one of the daughters. Mrs. Miles had a third daughter but she didn’t live at the house at that time. Maybe that was your breaking point when you felt at that time he would rather spend his time with them rather than you Either way none of those days look possible as the day you went to the park, That leaves two days Wednesday July 14th and Thursday July 15th. Can you add any significance to either of these days. We know you opened the store at 7:00 a.m. on the 14th and I know there was some question about when you worked later that day but it does seem you also worked that evening. That would probably remove that day as a possibility. That leaves us one day Thursday July 15, Christine is there anyway you can recall this day one way or the other. See Christine how that works, you take the information you have then you put it together then you try to get new information that fills in the holes and in doing so you need to ask questions. Elementary Watson. Please try to focus and stay on subject.
re Doris Tucker incident>>>> you say ‘I state one thing but she testified to something different.’ I never denied that the argument happened. Just not in the context she is stating or in month she stated it happened. I give you the context of the argument. And you choose to make statements that “I state everyone else is wrong”? Because I dare to bring incite as to “SIMONS SAYS” stories?
I recall asking deeb for 10 dollars to help buy a headlight for a car to pass inspection. An advance on my paycheck. Again that would have been in July I was only in Waco for a few days in August. I again reiterate two glaring things: ONE) I was his employee not a customer. her statement that Deeb said “I don’t want your business anymore” does not ring true and names like Fucking bitch are not statements that Deeb said. He did not cuss. From August on I had no contact with Deeb. I did not go into rainbow or talk to anyone of them after I returned in September. The DA admitted that there was no written statement and they could not even pull a report from the crimestoppers? With the date? give me a break!
I think this happened in July or at the least before August 18th not September. I was in Ft. Worth from late August until the day Simons summoned me. So again tell me how I could have talking about Bailing david out or money he owed David when I had no knowledge of what happened at that time and David was not in jail?
DA had access to the Crimestopper report with the date it was filed. And it would have been entered as evidence to VET the witness and to show the date. Instead they choose to say sometime in Sept – but show no documents to back her timeline. She stated she gave a written statement and yet Butler clearly states says “there was no written statement by this witness”. He did not state they did not bring the statement with them – he states THERE IS NO WRITTEN STATEMENT. The DA wanted it to be in Sept after David was arrested so they conveniently chose to have her say it was maybe in September – after David was arrested for the murders?
please tell me when David was Arrested for the Murders? When was Deeb arrested?
Chirstine, there are other accounts of there not being reports when people called crime stoppers, Deanna Storts first call for one. Also there is no report of when Gene Deal first called Salinas or any of the other times he called and tried to talk to him. It seems the police had a little problem with keeping up with their reports. Look at your Grand Jury Testimony you are saying this took place in September. Deeb was originally arrested on Monday September 13th. Deeb was re-arrested and David at the same time after the Grand Jury passed down the indictments in Late 1983. If you are asking when David was arrested for the Pack incident that was Thursday September 9th.
Christine was it past your bedtime or did your meds kick in you just disappeared……………….
wow! again referencing that I am on drugs. I told you point blank I will not tolerate this. Thank you for your time over the last few months. Be good to yourselves.
Christine you have stated you only saw the Melendez brothers one time after they had their falling out with David back in November of ’81 but you can not recall the date. You testified that you went to Speegleville Park with David and the Melendez brothers one time. Ok, that would seem that is the one time you saw the brothers. Recently you have told me you think you remembered seeing the brothers at your apartment with Clifford Oliver the night of the murders. To be fair you have stated you’re not sure on this, you might have nights mixed up. We know you worked the night of July 13th, well other than Kareem and Deeb;s defense lawyers. But you are not sure if you worked that morning or before you started the close shift, which I think you have stated was 6 p.m. or maybe 5:00 p.m.
After the police discovered the bodies at Speegleville Park they talked to a few people that had been at the park that day (July 13), there were only two over night passes issued for that night, one of those passes was given to the Hadleys. Mrs. Barbara Hadley called in and talked to Saiinas on July 19th, this is in his report of July 20th. She states between 2;00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. on the 13th she saw 2 white males in a white pick up, 69 to 73 model, around Sleegleville area 2. She didn’t get a license plate number but thought maybe this truck had something to do with the murders, very interesting to say the least especially considering how the case would come together later. Christine the obvious question is; could have sometime on July 13th been the day you were with David and the brothers at Speegleville Park? Maybe before you went to work you went to the park, not saying that you knew anything about the murders just that that could be the day? Of coarse you realize the significance of this answer and the flood of questions to follow, so before you answer I want to get into a few things, your responses up to now have been you don’t remember the day you went to the park with the brothers, what day you saw them and you can’t recall what you did before you worked the night of July 13.
Christine you know you still have mental scars due to the time you spent with David and the litany of abuses you suffered. It’s not like the day you left David the next day everything was fine and forgotten, things stuck with you and still do. I understand this, though you may feel I make light of this or are insensitive with all my intrusive questions. I assure you that’s not the case, honestly I have great sympathy for you, all you went through and suffered then and still suffer through today. But in the months we have talked I have noticed a prevalence in your responses. Many things I ask you about your response is you can’t remember but then if I put some information together and suggest a possibility you become more defensive and deny even the possibility of such scenarios even though you can’t remember. Now I’m not trying to say your are trying to be deceitful or you intend to do this, I think you can’t control this reaction, it your subconscious. I’m not a psychiatrist but you told me you went through years of therapy so I’m sure talking about repressing memories would have been part of this or trying to determine the depth of your consciousness, that means trying to come to some realization of what you can control and that which you couldn’t. You put it as pushing things out of your mind but it’s not pushing out it is repressing harmful memories. Your mind is protecting you from terrible memories and the feelings these memories can cause. I can see this in some of your responses and a few days ago you posted about some of the things you still deal with today.
I want to put this so you will understand and the best way to do this is use things you have pointed out like having to sleep close to exits, not liking to sit in the passenger’s seat of a vehicle, wanting to be in control, Now all this things you are conscious of, you are aware of these quirks and you probably understand why you have them. But what you can’t control are the feelings associated with these quirks, that would be the subconscious. It’s not like one day you say well I want to sleep on the other side of the bed tonight, well I just you could say it but your subconscious would be like hey you better get on the right side of the bed or those bad feelings will resurface and you will be uncomfortable so you will roll over and get back on your side of the bed, you can’t control that. You are aware of those feelings but you can’t control them, understandable. Actually we all have this in one way or the other, I don’t like people standing behind me when I eat, I get very uncomfortable, I don’t no why, I can’t control it, it’s just there. In your case it’s more acute, more severe because of the cause. The cause being applied over a considerable amount of time that creates this condition, the cause may be removed but the conditioning still remains and probably will never completely go away.
Now part of this conditioning in victim’s guilt, I know this was brought up a little during your appearance in front of the Grand Jury, Vic Feazell asking you about your family history dealing with abuse. I don’t want to get too far into this, not like I’m getting too far into anything else. Just pointing out that you are aware of this and I know I’ve hit on it with you before, you know about how people, like me, will ask why did you stay or why didn’t you leave many months before you did. No one needs to ask you that, you deal with that all on your own and the feelings that come with it. My point is that guilt could go beyond the feelings about your relationship with David, it could also include guilt about things that went on around you during this time. And there was a lot going on in your life and around you at the time; the abuse, breaking up and leaving your first real boyfriend, trying to take your life, people you were associated with being killed. It would have been a lot for any one’s mind to deal with. The guilt would be very unpleasant.
Christine, pushing out, blocking out or repressing memories that’s the subconscious mind protecting you from awful feelings and memories including guilt that could be harmful to your well being, remember it’s this same feelings and memories that played a part in you attempting suicide. That repressed guilt also includes the feelings you might endure if you now open up and share these memories and the responses you could get. I know we talked about this before how if you now say things that you didn’t say back then, there will be people that will ask why didn’t you say this stuff back then, that could cause more guilt. As I have told you before I’m not trying to cause you any harm, I’m not saying you were involved in the murders in any way. I’m not trying to say you are a bad person or you have any culpability due to your silence. I don’t think any one would. I think people would understand it was out of your control your mind was shutting you down for your own well being, people might not like it or be happy with it but will understand. Just like now your mind is probably telling you, you know that guy Brian asking you all those questions don’t answer his questions, you don’t want to go there, you don’t even want to consider the possibilities he presents, you don’t want to open up those memories. Christine you know I’m going to keep asking until the truth comes to light.
So back to my original question could July 13th, before the murders, been the day you went to the park with David and the Melendez brothers. Christine I know we can’t get all the answers from you and don’t expect to but you can see how important this would be, this would help prove so much; that David and the Melendez brothers were together that day, Anthony was in Waco, Gilbert’s truck was running and their appearance in that park earlier in the day could point towards they might have been planning what they were going to do later. Again I’m not trying to say you were aware of anything, you said they didn’t talk around you, I believe you, so on that day you wouldn’t have known anything. Now on the days immediately afterwards that’s a little different and again not saying any one came to one and gave you the details of what they had done. But I can see a scenario where you started putting things together. Deeb tells you about Kenneth being killed before the murders were reported on the 14th. The next day, July 15th, when you see the story of the murders in the paper, I can see you making a remark to David like, ” Isn’t that strange we were in Speegleville Park earlier that day” and David going off on you and telling you to shut up and to keep quiet. With that you started thinking about things, maybe it was these things that created in your mind the feeling to end things one way or another.
Mrs. Thompson do you think you would recognize Clifford Oliver from the trials. I down loaded a picture from facebook, I know the picture was probably taken many years after, if not decades after the trials but does that person look familiar to you?
What conclusive and indisputable evidence is there that only one vehicle was used to move the bodies? This was part of the Melendez brothers’ story, a story I think most people would agree was filled with countless inconsistencies at least. Another lie? This is the problem when you try to discern truth from a story full of lies, it’s nearly impossible.
When we look at some of the characters that got together sometime the night of the murders, the possibility of using more than one vehicle looks reasonable. Then we have the cut fence at Speegleville Park, I know the head ranger or whatever his title was stated he checked the fences daily maybe he just over looked or missed this. The fence in question was only two strands of barbed wire and couldn’t the perpetrators fixed the cut wires to look like they hadn’t been cut then a couple days later their fix comes apart. Rather easy to do, you cut the wires at the front of the post, then to replace the wire you tap the barbs of the wire into the inside of the post, would look like the the fence isn’t cut but in time the embedded barbs could fall out. And remember the one thing that was missing from Clifford Oliver’s vandalized car, his tools and tool box,maybe wire cutters and a hammer that could be used to tap the wire back in place.
Anyway when the officers checked out this area they found evidence that trucks and/or vehicles had run through that area, coincidence or something more?
Yesterday I was asked why I don’t call for the testing of the DNA evidence, that would be another example of the truth being bent. I have always been for the testing for all the evidence that was collected during the investigation, We shouldn’t pick and choose what evidence we want tested or try to limit what is tested, doing so would only give us a partial glance of the whole picture, isn’t that what we have now. Here are some of the questions and evidence that was collected that I have never seen answered nor tested.
Whom was responsible for vandalizing Clifford Oliver’s car and when was the car vandalized?
Whom threw Jill Montgomery’s check stubs on the ground at Koehne Park and when?
Whom broke into Patti Deis’ apartment twice and why?
Did the police take samples from the blood that was left at the apartment and has that blood
been tested?
Did the police get hand writing samples to compare with the note that was left?
Are the items that were collected from under the bridge at Veterans Park still around and were
they ever tested for DNA?
Fingerprints were lifted from these items, were they ever checked or compared to other prints?
This is just a few questions, I have many more and the answers to these few questions will definitely lead us to more questions.
Ever since I started looking into this case there has been one person I really have a lot of questions for; Clifford Oliver and he’s been very hard to find, there are so many Olivers in central Texas but finally I have been able to track him down. To make sure he was the Clifford Oliver I wanted I asked was he the Clifford Oliver that lived in Waco in 1982 and was friends with David Spence, his response was : “Yep , though not a bright period in my life so to speak”. Of coarse more questions followed, I hope Mr. Oliver will open up. I have so many questions for him and I hope others will ask what questions they may have. I think we will see a different story emerge than the story we have been told.
I guess I should share the Clifford Oliver story as it has been told to now because there is very little out there about this, his name and those of the people that were with him the night of July 13 and morning of July 14 have been pretty much swept under the rug. Even in the book “Careless Whispers” this is only mentioned in a couple lines and nom de guerre are used, so it gets overlooked and I have never seen it mentioned in any of the countless articles that have been written about the case.
Clifford Oliver was having financial and marital problems at the time, during the evening of July 13th Clifford and his wife Barbara got into a heated argument and Clifford took off. He would go to Pinocchio’s Pool Hall, a regular hang out for many of the names connected to this case. While there he ran into his friend Cal Frazier and high schoolers Todd Childers and John Arnett. These four individuals decided to leave the pool hall and go drink beer. Clifford had his car a Silver Pontiac and Todd had his green Dodge truck, the guys would take both vehicles to Midway Park, one of the handful of parks on the lake. After hanging out and drinking beer for about a hour or a hour and a half, they decided to take a drive, they were probably running low on beer by this point. It is decided to leave Clifford’s car at Midway and the guys piled into Todd’s truck.
They would make their way to Koehne Park, they would do a drive through. While there they ran into some guys, later identified as Mexicans, hanging around a truck, Clifford and his friends traded their last beer or last couple beers with these guys for a joint. Trading their last beers, they needed to go get more beer but now it was after midnight, the last call for purchasing carry out alcohol. The guys tried a number of stores before they finally went to a store where they knew the clerk would sell them beer after hours. Resupplied, now they decide they want to stop riding around and want to find some place to party.
First they try Cal Frazier’s girlfriend but she’s not home. This is when Clifford comes up with going to David Spence’s. They try David’s mother’s house but are informed by David’s brother Steve that David has moved to the Northwood apartments. Between 1:30 a.m. and 2:00 a.m. Clifford Oliver knocks on David’s door, apparently waking up a sleeping Spence. David tells Clifford he has been out at the lake partying. There is some question as to rather Spence said he was out at the lake with Anthony Melendez but this is how Anthony’s name is brought into the mix. David let’s the guys in and they stay up all night drinking beer and shooting up crank until David needs to take his girlfriend Christine Juhl to work, she has to open the store at 7:00 a.m.. Before leaving the apartment David makes a call from a pay phone at the apartment complex, trying to arrange a crank buy in Fort Worth, where the guys plan to go after they drop off Christine at work and David drops his car off at a mechanic. So David is driving Christine in his car and Todd, with Clifford, Cal and John, is following in his truck. While at the store David gets more beer and cigarettes, crediting the items on Christine’s time card.
Now, with all five guys in Todd’s truck, they return to Midway Park to retrieve Clifford’s car only to find it’s not there. They decide to go to Todd’s house so Clifford can call the police. Todd still being a teenager didn’t want his parents to know what he had been doing all night and whom he was with dropped off the older David and Cal. Todd, Clifford and John proceeded to Todd’s house, where Clifford calls the police and is told his car was vandalized and as been impounded. David and Cal are picked up by the others and together they go get Clifford’s car, he would write a bad check to get his car released and have to return to rectify this a couple days later.
At this point the younger boys decide it’s time for them to go home and Cal disappears somewhere along the line. Clifford and David return to Koehne Park and drink a couple beers. They run into a girl and go hang out at her place of employment for some time during which time David sets up a date with this girl for later that day. With that Clifford and David decide to go home and get cleaned up so they could go out later but Clifford went home and fell asleep and didn’t get back up with David. Clifford would testify he saw David only one time after this. This was in late July before Clifford headed to California in early August. Clifford testified that he and his girlfriend Josie Scionti stopped by but didn’t stay long because David was acting strange, Christine Juhl had left David by this time, Clifford would state Christine was not there and he would recall that David kept saying something like Clifford needed to learn the way of Muhammad.
At the end of July Clifford tried to have his car dismantled by a couple friends and reported the car stolen, when the police found the car a couple days later Clifford took off to California. On October 1st he went into the Navy he wouldn’t return to Waco until after his basic training was completed which was in December 1982. While he was in Waco Clifford would get up with former girlfriend Josie, it would be this encounter that made Josie call the crime stoppers hotline and told them she had information about the Lake Murders, she knew where the murders occurred and how the killers were able to drive into the woods without anybody at Koehne Park noticing. This is how it was determined where the murders took place. When the Melendez brothers were asked to show where the murders happened they came with in feet of the place Josie had shown. I guess it can be argued Truman Simons pointed it out to the brothers before they picked the spot but I will leave that for others to dispute.
Clifford Oliver and Todd Childers would both testify during David’s first trial and they told pretty much the same story, There were a few differences but nothing really ground braking, just some details were off a little which one would expect due to the time that had passed by the time of the trials and they were both intoxicated at the time of the events they were recalling. One could question how much coaching they received while being prepped for court and were there things distorted or left out. Clifford also testified during the Grand Jury and during this proceeding he was asked about the information Josie had supplied. According to Josie, Harold Windham and Diana Windham, Josie’s sister, they got up with Clifford when he returned to Waco in December and they went out to the lake to party. While there Clifford showed them where the murders occurred and took them down the road that was used to drive into the woods. Then they went to Speegleville and Clifford showed them where the bodies had been dumped. Clifford told this group that David Spence had shown him this. There is some question whether Clifford had said something to Josie about the murders that summer before he went to California, something along the line he had gotten sick the night of the murders by something he had seen. Clifford Oliver would deny all this during the Grand Jury, his reasoning why his girlfriend would be saying this stuff was that they were trying to get the reward money. That would be the last this story and information would ever be mentioned, it just disappeared or was swept under the rug. Well until now.
What happens when the DNA evidence doesn’t prove anything? Do we have the answers we are looking for? Has any DNA evidence in this case proved anything to this point? Hey I believe all DNA collected and items that were collected should be tested, I would think most people would feel this way. I understand why the State or former prosecutor doesn’t speak up, he doesn’t have to, his job was to prosecute a case and get convictions, he did that, he’s under no obligation to do more.
Now we are talking about DNA evidence that was collected 35 years ago and in particular fingernail clippings. I would like to share a study conducted on DNA evidence found on fingernail clippings. If you are interested in reading the full article it can be found in the March 2012, Forensic Science International: Genetics Journal :Prevalence and persistence of foreign DNA beneath fingernails.
– Fingernail scrapings and clippings are routinely examined for the presence of foreign DNA profiles in forensic casework where the case history suggests their evidentiary relevance. In order to better understand the significance of these findings, casework results from the Centre of Forensic Sciences (CFS) were analyzed and several controlled studies were conducted. In an analysis of casework data (n = 265), 33% of fingernail samples contained a foreign source of DNA, 63% of which were detected at 5 or more STR loci. In a sampling of fingernails from the general population (n = 178), 19% contained a foreign source of DNA, 35% of which were detected at 5 or more STR loci. In a study involving deliberate scratching of another individual (n = 30), 33% of individuals had a foreign DNA profile beneath their fingernails from which the person they scratched could not be excluded as the source; however when sampling occurred ∼6 h after the scratching event, only 7% retained the foreign DNA.
This research suggests the incidence of foreign DNA profiles beneath fingernails in the general population is low but, when present, the majority is of limited significance and tends not to persist for an extensive period of time. These data are provided to assist the forensic analyst when providing his or her opinion as to the relevance of foreign DNA present under fingernails. –
For those that missed it, I know there are some people out there that don’t like facts, ONLY 7% OF FINGER NAIL CLIPPINGS RETAINED FOREIGN DNA 6 HOURS AFTER THE SCRATCHING EVENT!!! And I would point out this was in a controlled environment where they were conducting a scientific study. Are we suppose to think that the odds of finding any foreign DNA improve over time? I would also like to point out although there wasn’t DNA evidence in 1982, skin under finger nails is something a M.E. can easily determine during the autopsy, something the M.E. in this case did not do. Yes she could have missed it, as she did the bite marks, or it could have been mixed with other foreign objects e.g. dirt, fibers, other organic matter etc. So yes test all DNA evidence but knowing the history of how the DNA evidence has been handled in this case and the problems that have resulted I think there is a very good chance, I would put it at least 90%, like all the other DNA evidence connected to this case that has been test the results will be inconclusive. What then?
When you know there are conflicting stories out there, you know some one is not telling the truth. It could just be innocent mistaken recollection or it could be because they have something to hide. How can we determine this if we don’t ask questions and yes some of those questions will be intrusive and difficult to answer, I’m not here to make friends, I’m looking for the truth while others wait around for miracles or hoping a politically active judge will side with them or looking for a technicality to overturn the verdicts, that’s not looking for the truth.
Pretty sure they got the right guys. But I know there’s always been controversy. I was with a couple of guys I had met playing foosball that night. Believe one was named Todd. Been so long. As far as Jose, there was a reward being offered and just the fact that I had mentioned knowing David was incentive enough. She said I had told her and other family members many things that just weren’t true. That’s why I was even under suspicion as an accomplice, until they found out about the Melendez brothers.
Mrs. Thompson the only other comment Clifford has made was to confirm he was whom I was looking for. this was it; “Yep , though not a bright period in my life so to speak”. So I haven’t asked him too much so far so that last post about him was really the first reply to any of my questions. I told him he might want to check out the site and warned him that he is one of my favorite targets. Look how I angered Christine Juhl, do you think I’m going to do much better with Clifford Oliver? But I’ve sent him more questions.
This site is about questions and searching for answers. You have questions for him that might answer some of the controversy about the night and early morning hours of July 13th and 14th. Was he at the apartment during this time; etc. Is he aware of Josie’s whereabouts at the present time, ?
I will ask him about Josie but I have tried to talk to her and her sister and have gotten nowhere. But Clifford’s answer about her story when I asked him was the same he gave to the Grand Jury; Josie made up the story for the reward money. I just explained to him this morning my feelings, especially about how she knew the road taken, which still stands out foremost in my mind.
mmaaix I want to clear up the response I made Friday morning, get the right names in the right places and put things in proper context. Early on in the investigation Danny Sizemore became a person of interest or a suspect. Thursday morning July 15 at approximately 9:20 a.m. Waco P.D. received a call from an unknown female caller, the caller stated Sizemore had bought dope from victim Kenneth Franks and had said he had killed people before. This caller was probably Donna Olsen. A few days later, July 19, the police got a call from Dana Sizemore the older sister of Danny, she reported she had gotten a call the day before from Donna Oslen. Donna wanted to talk to Danny about the murders, Dana informed Donna he wasn’t there and Donna started talking to Dana about Mr. Franks. Dana was calling in to let the police know they needed to check this girl out but she didn’t have a number where Donna Olsen could be reached. Detective Salinas tracked Donna down the next day, July 20, at her work. Although the number of the unknown female caller is not in the report, I wpuld guess this is how Salinas tracked her down. Salinas talked to Donna that day and Officer Nicoletti talked to her the next day. Donna gave them some information about the strange behavior of Mr. Franks and some of the things he had said. On July 23rd Salinas recontacted Kenneth Adkisson, a former resident at the Methodist Home that had given information to police earlier. Salinas asked Adkisson if he knew Danny Sizemore, Adkisson said he did but he hadn’t seen him in a while but he gave the name of another girl that lived at the Methodist Home that would know more about Sizemore, this would be Christine Hart.
On July 26th Sargent Holly Holstein interviewed Christine Hart. Ms. Hart had a pretty crazy story to tell, like how Sizemore, Kenneth Franks and some of their friends, including Danny McSpadden and Danny McGinnis, would drink and get high and blindfold a subject give him a gun and the others would hide. When the subject heard a sound he would shoot in that direction. Don’t know if any of this was true but Christine said she hadn’t seen Sizemore in two or three weeks and she thought when Sizemore was in town he stayed with Danny McSpadden which was true. Sizemore had stayed with McSpadden at the Northwood apartments back in June and this is probably how Donna Olsen became acquainted with Sizemore because she also lived at the Northwood apartments. That looks like that would have been the end of that, by then Waco P.D. had better suspects, mainly Terry “Tab” Harper but as the investigators were finding that the Tab Harper story was nothing more than rumors build on a lie, they received a call from one Weldon Bounds on August 6th. Mr. Bounds stated he had heard the police were looking for Sizemore and Bounds said Sizmore’s had an Uncle that was connected to the mafia and if the police wanted to find Sizemore they needed to talk to his ex-girlfriend. This ex-girlfriend was Joy Thrasher and she stayed with her sister at the Northwood Apartments. Bounds would call again on August 10th apparently Joy had seen or talked to Sizemore a couple weeks before and had given Mr. Bounds the impression that Sizemore was being evasive when asked questions about the murders. Joy had aslo stated Danny’s parents would know where he was.. With this information Salinas looked in Sizemore’s past and found he had been dismissed from the service either in April or May of 82. Bounds” son David told Salinas that the talk going around was Danny was responsible for the murders and David believed Danny was capable of committing these murders.
On August 11th, Robert Watts name would come up for the first time when Salinas interviewed Drury Singleton, while Singleton was being interviewed about the Beth Bramlett murder he mentioned he might have information about the Lake Waco Murders. He stated he had picked up a hitch hiker named Robert Watts on either July 12th or July 15th on highway 84 pass Bellmead and that this Watts had told him about the murders and how he had spent the night at Fort Fisher and the night before Drury had picked up Watts, Watts said a orange car similar to the car that the victims had been in stopped to ask him if he wanted a ride and if he had gone with them he would be dead now. Salinas interviewed Robert Watts next. Watts said he had left Belton on Saturday July 10th and it took him two days to get to Waco and that Drury had picked him up on Monday morning July 12th, that would have been before the murders occurred but then Watts said he was in Waco when the murders happened and that’s how he knew about them. Watts story didn’t match what Singleton had said and he couldn’t have been in Waco at the time of the murders to know about them if Drury had picked him up on Monday before the murders and taken him to Axtell where Watts stayed with Singleton. A lie detector was planned for Watts, I don’t know what became of that.
Salinas made contact with Dana Sizemore again on August 19 by then Dana had talked to her brother, he was in Alabama and during their conversation Danny had asked Dana what weapon had been used to kill Beth Bramlett and he knew a subject that hated both Kenneth Franks and Beth Bramlett, that would be Danny McSpadden. With that Salinas decided it was time to track down some of the names Christine Hart had given them. Salinas got up with McSpadden later that day.
Danny McSpadden told Salinas that he wasn’t really good friends with Kenneth Franks, Kenneth had stayed at his apartment with Sizemore a couple nights back in June. Franks had stated he couldn’t return home but McSpadden did not know why. McSpadden and Sizemore had gone to the Franks apartment one time, while there Mr. Franks came on to them and McSpadden never wanted to go back. The reason McSpadden kicked Kenneth out was because Kenneth was smoking weed in his apartment, something McSpadden did not allow. When Salinas asked McSpadden about the murder of Beth Bramlet, he stated he heard Beth had been at a party and that he had not been at the party. He had dated Beth back in 1981 and that Beth broke up with him because she didn’t like him anymore. Others that had been at the party were Danny McGinnis and Perry Singleton.
July 20th Salinas and Holstein made contact with Virginia Singleton the mother of Perry Singleton. Asking her if she could tell them where they could find her son and Danny McGinnis, she tells them where to find Perry. Perry stated he didn’t know anything about Kenneth Franks or the two girls that had been murdered other than Danny McGinnis had told him he knew Kenneth real well. Perry had been at the party where Beth Bramlett was last seen alive but he had fallen asleep after the altercation took place and had only been told what happened. He had been told that Beth Bramlett, Robert Watts and Issac Ochoa had run in the woods when some shots were fired, then Issac Ochoa returned and made up with the guy that had the gun, John Robinson. Perry gave the officers directions to where they could find Danny McGinnis. Going to his place of employment Salinas and Holstein interviewed McGinnis, he stated he knew Kenneth but he hadn’t seen him for about two or three months or about a month before the murders. McGinnis had seen Kenneth while they were swimming at Koehne Park and they hadn’t talked much. Kenneth appeared to be happy, had a new motorcycle and was glad to be out of the Home. McGinnis stated he had seen Robert Watts Friday August 13th at the movies and Watts appeared to be wearing a belt that belonged to Beth Bramlett. The case would be suspended two weeks later and it doesn’t look like these leads were ever followed up. I do think it was determined Danny Sizemore was in Alabama when the murders occurred but I don’t know what ever happened with Robert Watts, he looks to be the only connection between the Lake Waco Murders and the Beth Bramlett murder and to be honest it isn’t much to go on, no one reports seeing them together at anytime. What significance Beth Bramlett’s murder has with the Lake Waco Murders is the reaction David Wayne Spence had when he heard about the Bramlett murder. Beth’s first name was Gayle and that’s how her name was printed in the paper, when David saw this he thought Deeb had killed Gayle Kelly, that shows David didn’t think Deeb was joking when he talked about killing Gayle Kelly.
Thank you, this is very intriguing and they all seem to intertwine. This is the article I was referring to. I have done research for days and cannot seem to find who’s grandmother was murdered in Bellmead, and this person also shot themselves at some point and survived. It’s really driving me crazy then I got pulled into the Lake Waco Murders a lot of the same names and realized that case is full of holes and inconsistencies.
To add to info on Feazells page aug 20 82 .. police report mentions a Charles e sedigas .. from Bellmead was questioned for LWM .. he then advised detectives he was most recent boyfriend of Beth Bramlett , and she had possible been looking for him the last night she was seen.. does anyone have any info on him .. ???
Jwb, as per the report Lt. Horton, the officer that interviewed Sedigas, didn’t put much faith in him. The report doesn’t say when Sedigas was originally arrested or what the original charges were, at some point Sedigas assaulted an officer, the report states this happened while in was in the Bellmead jail.
So going by the report Sedigas was first in the Bellmead Jail was transferred to the County Jail in Waco and then returned to Bellmead. He states the last time he saw Beth Bramlett was a few days before she disappeared, I think Sedigas could have already been locked up when Beth was killed, everything he tells Horton about apparently happened two or three weeks before, even if what he says is true it would be before her murder. Finding when Sedigas was first arrested would help but it’s hard to find records, at least on the internet, from that far back.
mmaaix, thank you for sharing the article, Honestly I don’t know too much about the Beth Bramlett case just the stuff I’ve come across researching the Lake Waco Murders and of coarse I don’t know what you have dug up in your research, I know there seems to be a lot of unsolved murders in Texas, have you looked into the I-35 killer or killings? Originally Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole confessed to many of these crimes only to recant later or found to be not involved, I know that’s what happened with the Dorothy Collins murder, she was killed in Waco in January 1981. Some one that might be a suspect in Beth Bramlett’s murder is Benny Tijerina Jr. About ten years ago he was found guilty of killing a couple back in the late 70’s, this had been a crime Lucas had admitted to. The gun used to kill this couple was a .22 caliber the same as in the Bramlett murder. DNA connected Tijerina to this murder, he pleaded guilty but said he didn’t do the shooting he was just an accomplice. So you might be interested in looking into Tijerina if you haven’t already done so.
Revisiting the Robert Watts story made me think of the Gregg Watts story, don’t know how true it is and the details are very sketchy but it’s one of those stories when you put it with other information the police obtained it makes you wonder. On Monday July 19th Officer Nicoletti got a call from Detective Bostick of the Homicide Division Houston P.D.. Bostick had taken a call from an unknown subject. The subject told Bostick he had met two male subjects at a party, one of these men said they had stolen a 1974 Chevy off a warehouse parking lot near Waco, then the two men drove into Waco picked up three kids at Koehne Park, tied them up and stabbed them to death near Lake Waco. After this the two men abandoned the van and stole a Ford White Pick up somewhere north of Waco and that part of the license plate on the truck was EZ1. The caller told the Detective he only knew the name of one of these males; Greg Watts, white male 34 years old, caller didn’t know the name of the other male but described him as a black male, 28 years old, went by the nickname King and had recently been paroled from TDC to Legrange. Interesting to say the least.
Nicoletti, Ranger Joe Wiley and Larry Abner from the Sheriff’s office followed up this lead, they couldn’t find anything on a Gregg Watts but they did find that a Ford Van that had been stolen from a food warehouse in San Antonio had been recovered from Fort Fisher. Abner was able to track down the King subject, his name was Delano King. King had been arrested a few times including charges for drugs and auto thief. but King had been paroled in 1976 and lived in Fayetteville. The van that had been stolen had already been returned to San Antonio. The plate number on the van was EV2218. All this can be found in Nicoletti’s report of July 20th. Nothing ever seems to come from this information and I probably wouldn’t make much of it but then there was another little piece of information Abner and Nicoletti received a few days later.
They talked to one Clarence Pierce on July 22, he had been at Speegleville Park on the night of July 13th. Pierce told them he had gone to a party and remembered seeing the Orange Pinto pulling in between 9:30 p.m. and 10:p.m., he remembered seeing two girls a blonde and a dark haired sitting in the front seats and he saw the blonde girl get out of the car. Pierce said he thought there was two or three males in the back seat and that one was black. Pierce believed the people in the Pinto were selling drugs. And then when the party started to break up a little before 11:00 p.m., people wanted to leave before the gates closed, the Pinto drove deeper into the park. Pierce described the black male as very tall and skinny, here is the physical description Abner got from the officer he spoke to about Delano King; 6’3, 170 pounds, very skinny. This can be found in Nicoletti’s report of July 23.
Careless Whispers or Contrived Convictions 
RS 7236–do you think Robert had something to do w the murders? I’m trying to reconcile all of this. Thank you.
LikeLike
Dm957……..I have been trying to “reconcile” all this for almost35 years. So far, I have not found what I can consider the true story. I will not say I think Frueh was one of the killers. However, I will say I feel he was involved with whatever went on that night at the Lake. I feel he knew what happened.
This is my opinion only.
LikeLike
It does sound that way–especially considering that he lived so close to Kenneth. Those rumors that he called the boy’s father…very odd. I am so sorry for the pain you and your family suffered.
LikeLike
Dm957 Thank you. Please continue to pursue whatever information you are able to collect.
Someday, someone just might decide to be truthful.
LikeLike
RS7236–Did you have specific info regarding Robert’s past? Someone mentioned that he had a reputation as one who lured young people to his condo with drugs and then seduced young men. And I now know he was stabbed by a young man in 1991. But is there anything more, any proof of his actions? I have yet to find police records, but if they are there, I’ll find them soon.
LikeLike
Dm957, several of the investigators told me that Frueh did have a bad reputation and had some charges on record. I do not remember what the charges were for. This would have been in ’83 probably
LikeLike
RS 7236–the police record is what I’m looking for–thank you. I’ve checked documents on Feazell site.
LikeLike
Dm957 if you have access to police reports, check January through May of 1983. There should be activity concerning Frueh being questioned during that time period.
LikeLike
Dm, police reports are online either @ lakewacomurders.com or vicfeazell.com.
LikeLike
We often hear about crimes involving people that have become connected to the Lake Waco Murders in one way or another; the murder of Juanita White, the many crimes of Tab Harper, James Russell Bishop’s California attack and whatever crazy stuff Robert Frueh was involved in but we hear nothing about the crimes that could be directly connected to the Lake Waco Murders; the vandalism of Clifford Oliver’s car and the break-ins of Patti Deis’ apartment. Whatever happened to the investigations into these crimes, were these cases ever resolved, was anyone ever arrested? Whatever happened to the physical evidence that was collected from Patti Deis apartment? Does anyone know how we could go about finding this stuff? Can we find any of the items that were collected by the Waco Police Department back in 1982 and have seemed to disappear along the way? If we are committed to finding the truth we must be willing to look at everything!!!
LikeLike
Always interested when I find or hear something that is new to me. While talking to Christine Juhl the other day she told me something I found interesting. I really don’t know what to think or make of it, so I thought I would just share and see if anyone has any thoughts. We were talking about when Christine stayed with Daivd’s mother while he was in jail, this would have been from sometime after September 14, 1982 until she left Waco. Christine Juhl: Another thing you should know Simons and the DA gave me 200.00 per month cash to pay Juanita rent while I lived with her so that I could try to get info from David while he was in jail. I picked the cash up from Vic Feazell himself. That was the day they set it up to have David and I pass in the hall when they did dental casts. It was done to set David off…. and it did! Looking back I wondered why the DA’s office was paying it. I also meet with the preceding judge before Deebs retrial. I would say it was November 1992 before the trial.
LikeLiked by 2 people
May I ask:
Did Christine Juhl share any details of the meeting with the presiding Judge at Deeb’s retrial?
When did Feazell go into office?
What is the date of Spence’s sexual assault attack on D. Pack?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Here is what Christine had to say about her meeting with the judge; As I stated before the meeting with the judge was before the trials. The DA flew me and my son down for a pretrial talk. It was maybe October. Mostly we talked about my life in present. We talked about what was to be expected at the trial. Including how to handle the Defense attorney. I remember the Judge saying he (the defense) was known to chew witnesses up and then using their bones to pick his teeth. We talked about David and some of the bad things he did for me. I think mostly it was a pep talk. Keep in mind I had refused to testify at the first trials. Not because I did not believe that David had done it – because I did believe he had .But because I was still afraid he would find a way to kill me. I was scared. I was scared that looking at him across the room would somehow make it possible for him to kill me. Strange as this may sound, I was never truly free of fear until he was executed.
Anticipating more questions I also asked Christine about this; Thank you for your response and I don’t want to sound insensitive but I see this question coming. If you were so afraid of David how in your mind was it possible for you to act as a conduit for the state to get him upset? Like yeah the guy i’m afraid might kill me, i’m going to see if I can make him more upset and unstable. I would really like to understand this line of thinking. And it wasn’t like you were under any obligation to the state, you didn’t have to stay in Waco you could have returned to Fort Worth. You could have been like hey I have finally gotten away from. David for good I don’t need or want to get caught up in his world again in any way shape or form and no one could fault you for that. But you stayed, you didn’t testify during the first trials but you did testify for the Grand Jury. So is it correct to say from the time you stayed with Mrs. White until you testified at Deeb’s retrial you still believed they were guilty and you were afraid?
And her response to this: As long as David thought I was faithful to him and he was in jail I was safe. Simon’s was the one that made it clear that David had friends and David wanted me dead.
Matter of fact Simon’s called my mother in late 1983 and told her that my body had been found in Dallas by some railroad tracks.
How heartless was that?!?
Christine also commented on when Vic Feazell became involved and here is what she had to say about that; Feazel May have not take office officially until January but he was involved with Simons prior to taking office. I did not know until later he was not the residing DA at the time. Juanita may have helped police (by being truthful and opening her home to them to search) but at the same time she believed her son was not capable of murder. She loved her son.
LikeLiked by 2 people
http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Axtell-girls-brutal-murder-still-unsolved-after-35-years-439621893.html
This is the article I read. I have been researching for about a week and haven’t found anyone who grandmother was murdered and the shot themselves and survived. However I’m amazed by the inconsistencies on the Lake Waco murders and I have a lot of serious doubts about the convicted.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Does anyone consider that Beth Bramlett could’ve been killed by the same person or persons? Also there is an article out today that states the suspect they believe killed Beth killed his grandmother in bellmead apparently because he had nowhere to stay and she had become suspicious. Then a few years later he attempted to kill himself and shot himself but ended up surviving. Anyone know who they are talking about?
LikeLiked by 2 people
mmaaix, could you share the article you read. I know there was some one that killed a lady in Bellmead about the same time when Bramlett was killed and he was looked into for the Lake Waco murders also. At the moment I can’t remember the guys name I know I have it somewhere. There were two other murders, Dorothy Collins and Carol Armstrong, one of these women was elder and the other was like a teen maybe early 20’s, I think the same guy killed both. I will look through my notes this weekend and find the name.
Now a connection between the Lake Waco Murders and Beth Bramlett that would be Robert Watts. I’m sorry I’m going to have to fling it for now, again I have to go through the reports. There was a girl that was a resident at the Methodist Home named Christie Hart, she told police they needed to look at Donnie Sizemore, Danny McSpaden and Danny McGinnis, I apologize I might have the spellings wrong and I have seen Sizemore’s name as Donnie and Danny. Anyway Kenneth Franks had stayed at the Northwood Apartments in June 1982 with this Sizemore and one of these Dannys, I keep getting them mixed up. When the police talked to Danny he told them Kenneth had stayed with them because he couldn’t go home but gave no reason and Danny made Kenneth leave because Kenneth was smoking dope in Danny’s apartment and Danny didn’t allow that. He also stated he and Sizemore at stopped by the Franks’ residence to see Kenneth, he wasn’t there but Mr. Franks was and was intoxicated and came on to the boys. The other Danny had dated Beth and had been friends with Kenneth, the police interviewed Danny and he told the police about the party which was the last place Beth Bramlet was seen alive. This Danny hadn’t gone to the party but had been told about it and told the police they needed to talk to Perry Singleton. When the police went to the Singleton’s Perry’s mother told the police they probably wanted to talk to Drury not Perry, Drury had picked up this drifter in Waco that had told them about the Lake Waco murders. Perry did inform the police that at the party a fight broke out and some one pulled out a gun. Beth Bramlett, this drifter Robert Watts and a third male, can’t remember his name at the moment, ran into the woods. A few shots were fired. Then this guy that ran into the woods with Beth and Robert came out and made peace with the guy with the gun, it seems Beth and Robert didn’t come out of the woods, her body would be found a couple days later. Either Perry or one of the Dannys also told police they saw Robert Watts after this and he was wearing a belt that belonged to Beth. Then the police talked to Drury and finally Robert.
Drury told police he had picked up Robert the Thursday after the murders and that’s how he had heard about them. When the police interviewed Robert he said Drury had picked him up on Monday before the murders but then he admitted he was in Waco when the murders occurred. Robert said he left I think San Antonio on Saturday hitch hiking and it took him two days to get to Waco. He spent that first night he arrived in Waco at Fort Fisher. If he arrived in Waco Monday and spent the night at Fort Waco, that would put him at Fort Fisher on Tuesday the day of the murders and the day the girls, Jill and Raylene went to Fort Fisher. Could they have run into Robert Watts? And if Drury picked up Robert until Thursday what did Robert do in Waco from the time he got to Waco and Thursday?
mmaaix, that’s my fast reply I will straighten out the details, the names and such after the weekend. Great question!!!
LikeLiked by 2 people
mmaaix, I did find this on the Armstrong murder looks like there was a mistake in this case also. David Sims is the guy I’m thinking about, here is the link https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=4114
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine didn’t give any details of the meeting but I will ask her. When did Feazell go into office? Mrs. Thompson great question and this is my point regarding my conversations with Christine Juhl. Feazell didn’t get into office until January 1983 as far as I know she was staying with David’s mother long before this, Christine and I differ on when she actually started staying there but I believe it was shortly after she returned to Waco in September 1982, Vic Feazell had nothing to do with the case at that time. I’m not saying somewhere along the line Simons and/or Feazell gave her money but I believe, as I do with many things Christine states, she’s just mixed up on the timeline or the chain of events. This begs the question is this intentional or not? .
Spence attacked Pack Sunday September 5, 1982, he was arrested Thursday September 9, 1982. Simons and Baier took over the case on Friday September 10, 1982. As part of their investigation they went over the police reports that had been filed by the officers that had worked the case from July 14th until September 3rd, in doing so they came across the July 19th report where Lisa Kader came to the station and reported Muneer Deeb had killed Kenneth Franks because of Gayle Kelly, no one had tried to talk to Deeb about this in any way and although they had talked to Gayle Kelly a number of times she was never asked about Deeb. Baier and Simons went to the Methodist Home to talk to Lisa Kader to see what information she had, they got more than they were looking for when she not only offered her belief that Deeb had killed the kids but that David Spence could have also been involved. Asked why, she explains that Spence had raped her back in August and in the process had intimidated her with a knife and bitten her violently. The bites had been so violent Kader still had the marks and showed the officers. Simon remembered the marks on Jill and with that David Wayne Spence became a serious person of interest. When Simons and Baier, trying to find if there was anything in the police records on David Wayne Spencer, were told he had just been arrested for sexual assault where a knife had been used, Spence became a serious suspect.
In the next couple days Simons and Baier collected information on Muneer Deeb until late at night Sunday September 12th, then Gayle Kelly called Simons telling him Deeb had just admitted to her and Patti Deis that he killed the kids. The next night, Monday September 13th, 1982 Deeb was arrested. The following day, Tuesday September 14th Simons and Baier were interviewing Dana Diamond and she told them about the insurance policy and that Deeb had told her the girls that had been killed had been in the store the day they were killed and the girl he had the policy on was suppose to be with them and if she had been he would have been rich. Dana didn’t know the girl’s name Deeb had the policy on. This was the first the police had heard about the insurance policy. Checking this out the officers fonud there were two insurance policies, one on Gayle Kelly with Deeb as the beneficiary and a second on Christine Juhl with Spence as the beneficiary. Simon tracks down Christine Juhl in Fort Worth and asks her if she could return to Waco, they would like to interview her. She agrees and returns to Waco the next morning September 15th. This would have been the earliest Christine heard anything about Deeb being arrested for the murders and that David had been arrested for the Pack incident. It was sometime after this that she moved in with David’s mother.
Christine told me, at first she stayed with her husband, she had married one of Deeb’s friends back in August, but her husband’s aunt disapproved and she wasn’t allowed to stay. She states this is when Simons talked to David’s mother into allowing Christine to move in. Honestly I have a hard time believing this account, which I have stated to Christine. David’s mother was helpful to the authorities, she wanted David to be innocent but she didn’t lie to officers like the members of the Melendez family had a history of doing. Mrs. White turned over things she found that she thought were suspicious with out anyone else knowing anything about these items. Actually it was things she told Gene Deal, David’s parole officer, that made Mr. Deal start to believe David was responsible for the murders back in August. He would call the Waco Police at least three times back in late July and August but Detective Ramon Salinas wasn’t interested, so this should have been when David Wayne Spence became a suspect but that wouldn’t happen until the following month. But getting back to Christine, she wasn’t giving the officers any useful information, Simons states all she did was ask questions, his position and rightfully so was he was suppose to be asking the questions. So why would Simons try to arrange for Christine Juhl, a person he wasn’t getting information from, to live with Mrs. White, some one he was getting information from, to obtain information. As far as I know Simons was shocked when Christine informed him she was staying with David’s mother.This sounds much more logical, really how do you go to some one and say hey your son’s ex-girlfriend that just recently left him and married some one else can’t stay with her husband and needs a place to stay!!! I think it is more likely that once Simons found Christine was staying with Mrs. White he used it to his advantage as best he could. Christine states they used her to upset David, I believe this could be true because they did like to get David upset because he talked more when he was upset.
So in regards to the timeline and how Christine Juhl may have things mixed up, again something I have asked her about but have yet to get a reply, I see a more probable chain of events. Christine left David Spence in late July but she stayed in Waco until August 10th according to her account. I would add this is also suppose to be the date Lisa Kader was rapped by David. Christine returned to Waco August 17th and 18th, this is when she married Mahar. She returned to Fort Worth after being in Waco for a couple days. This was also the time the argument between Christine and Deeb occurred that Doris Tucker called the police about, so maybe this could give us a better understanding of what that argument was about. I would say this is when Christine realized she couldn’t live with Mahar and that’s why she returned to Fort Worth at that time. Then when Simons called her the night of September 14th and she agreed to return to Waco, realizing she didn’t have a place to stay she started staying with Mrs. White and she informed Simons.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I was not aware that David Raped Lisa Kader on the same day I left Waco.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you for joining the conversation. I must give Christine credit I ask a lot of hard questions, I really pry into things and she has always been willing to take the time and make the effort to respond. I am grateful and truly appreciate that. It is a great asset to be able to get such a unique view from some one that was so close to what was going on back in 1982. We may not like or agree with what she tells us and it might be the first time we hear some of the things she will share which would lead us to ask why didn’t she say any of this earlier, I know it has been that way for me in the many months I have been communicating with Christine. So feel free to ask questions but a little reminder, I’ve seen this on sites dealing with other cases, ask your questions, share your opinions and thoughts everyone is entitled to that but please keep it civil and respectful. Hey I’ve talked and tried to talk to a number of people but when the questions become difficult or they don’t like the questions they stop talking, Christine has been nice enough to put up with my endless barrage. If these questions were easy we probably would have had the answers a long time ago
LikeLiked by 2 people
Lisa Kader didn’t give Simons and Baier a date of when the incident occurred when they went and saw her on Saturday September 11, 1982. She stated that it happened a couple weeks before. The details she gave were she went out on a double date with Faye Pearson and Robert Coleman, the same Robert Coleman that was with David the day of the Darwin Pack incident. The Methodist Home had a policy regarding whom the girls dated, if one of the girls wanted to go out on a date with some one, the prospective date had to be approved of by the house parent. Once permission was granted the girl would have to sign out and state her plans for the date. One little problem with this policy; a girl that got permission to go out on a date could take a friend and once this happened the friend could hook up with anybody she wanted without getting permission and that looks like what happened in this case. How the police came up with the date August 10th was Faye Pearson and Lisa Kader had signed out together on that Date. Pearson had gotten permission to go out with Robert Coleman and when the girls signed out Faye had written she was going out with Robert Coleman and that they were going out for pizza and Lisa was going with them. The police didn’t find any other such entries in the log.
So Christine that date matches when you left Waco and the night you left David July 19th was also the night of the first break-in of Patti Deis’ apartment. Do we see a pattern?
LikeLiked by 2 people
I see the pattern. And it makes me sick.
LikeLike
Christine,
I have always been curious as to how well you knew the Melendez brothers. As you know, they recanted their confessions. Tony communicated with me the last 5 years of his life. He told me that he did not have anything to do with the crime. He begged me for 5 years to believe him ! I also would like to know how John Arnett was involved
I feel like you are the only one who knows the truth and that is all I want….”the truth”. Jill was my niece. Again, ALL I WANT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. we met during Deebs’ retrial and I believe you can help me finally feel like I know the truth.
Thank you for your help.
LikeLiked by 2 people
RS7236:
The Melendez brothers, Tony and Gilbert, hung out with David a lot at Juanita’s house from July of 1981 until there was a falling out between David and the brothers in November of 1981.
I do not recall seeing them again until the early morning of July 14th 1982. I cannot say that I knew John Arnett at all. Even the name did not bring back any memories. Matter of fact I was not aware that the Melendez brothers had any other siblings until recently.
I am not sure that even I know the whole truth. I am just a small part of a very big web.
And I do remember meeting you at Deeb’s trial. You were all very kind to me.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Thank you for responding. If you will please refresh my mind on the early morning of the 13th……..who all came to your apartment that morning? Was Clifford Oliver one of them? And I thought John Arnett was with him. I must have that all mixed up.
Christine, I appreciate you more than you know!!
Did you know Jill at all ?
Do you believe it happened mostly like the book Careless Whispers revealed.
Thanks again. Jan Thompson
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thirty- five years ago today and still so many questions!!! With all the talk about court cases, evidence, files, forensic boards, conflicting opinions, testimony and police reports we have to remember the human element, we cannot and should not forget all that was taken away and lost.
Following this case as long as I have, from reading “Careless Whispers” in my late teens back in the 80’s until the present, there are things that stick out and stick with me. Point in case Jill Montgomery spent the morning before she left for Waco with her aunt. Jill told her aunt while she was in Waco she was planning to stop by the Methodist Home to pick up a couple items she had left with a friend, a sweatshirt and a R.E.O. poster. When the investigators talked to Mrs. Thompson she stated she didn’t even know what a R.E.O. was. What is a R.E.O.? I know that’s a question I can answer correctly. So in remembrance of Jill Montgomery, Raylene Rice and Kenneth Franks a deep cut from the classic 1980 R.E.O. Speedwagon album Hi Infidelity – “I Wish You Were There”
LikeLike
Recent conversations have hit on the confusion and the true heart of the matter that leaves us with so many questions about the night of July 13th and the morning of July 14th. The central figure being David Wayne Spence and the big question is; whom was with whom and when and obviously what did they do? We have two very questionable accounts of the whereabouts and actions of David Spence during that time frame. First we have Anthony and Gilbert Melendez, they would confess, plead guilty and testify against Spence, only to refuse to cooperate further and recant their testimony once they realized they were not going to get parole after serving tens years which they thought was part of the agreement they had made when they agreed to the plea deal. Then we have the testimony of Clifford Oliver and Todd Childers, two guys that testified that they, with their friends John Arnet and Cal Frazier, woke Spence up at his apartment in the early hours of July 14th approximately between 1:30 a.m. and 2:00 a.m. and spent most of the morning of the 14th with Spence. There are a few differences in their testimony and they don’t seem definitely sure on their timeline. That would make sense most of us lose track of time when we are partying with friends. As would and should be expected, you can tell both Clifford and Todd have been prepped or coached, for those with a more sinister view, but even with that Clifford’s testimony doesn’t sound reliable or convincing. Clifford Oliver
also testified for the Grand Jury and at Spence’s trial and it’s his varying accounts and what he can and can’t remember that really begins to raise questions. The only facts we can with any degree of certainty draw from that night are Clifford got into an argument with his wife the night of July 13th. The police learned this when they found his car the morning of July 14th, called Clifford’s house and his wife informed them that she and Clifford had argued the night before and Clifford left and hadn’t returned home. Clifford’s car had been vandalized sometime that night and he rolled into the police station to retrieve his car shortly after 9:00 a.m. the morning of July 14th. One might wonder, well I do, by Clifford’s own account he had been up drinking all night and shooting crank and the Waco Police Department just hand over the keys to him, that’s some very insightful and perceptive police work.
There are so many things in Clifford’s testimony that could be questioned but I’m just going to share one for now, For those that are interested you can find his testimony on-line. Just for the purpose of showing Clifford’s ever changing facts and story I’ve chosen a part of his cross examination by Russ Hunt during Spence’s first trial. I guess I should give a little back ground for those that are not familiar with the story. When Clifford went to pick up his car, the morning of the 14th when by his own testimony he was so messed up he could remember what he did that night, he wrote a check to the police department that bounced. A couple days later he had to return to the station to rectify that problem. At that time Lieutenant Horton questioned Clifford about what he might have seen the night of July 13th while he was out at the lake. Again there may be some question if Clifford was asked about any of this when he first went to the station on the 14th but Clifford was there approximately at 9:00 a.m. the morning of the 14th that would be approximately the same time Mr. Franks was filing a missing persons report on Kenneth, Jill and Raylene, so when Clifford was there that morning the police department as a whole weren’t aware there was even anyone missing at that point. So here is Russ Hunt asking Clifford Oliver about what he told Horton only days later.
LikeLiked by 2 people
R.H. – That day. Okay. A few days later did you have occasion to go down to the Waco Police Department and tell them in fact that you had been to Koehne Park that night?
C.O. – Yes. True.
R.H. – Why did you think that might be important, Clifford?
C.O. – I thought maybe I might have seen a car or something that, you know, might help them out. I had to go in and pay for check I wrote for my car. It was hot. So I had to go in. And when I got there, I had heard about the murders. And I thought that was the night I was there; maybe I can think of something. So I told them what cars I saw out there and stuff like that.
R.H. – Did you tell about the Mexican fellows that you had contact with that evening?
C.O. – The ones — well, I told them there were some sitting down there yeah. But that wasn’t the ones that were in the truck, but there were some other ones that were over there and they looked suspicious.
R.H. – I didn’t understand that. So why don’t you describe that if you could. What do you mean? What exactly did you tell the police department, the best you can remember again because it’s been almost two years ago
C.O.- I told them the people that we saw in the truck and I told them we saw some Mexicans down there that looked like low riders is what I call them The guy had on a gangster hat and silk looking gangster type hat. Looked like a pretty rowdy type, you know, crew.
R.H. – Where I’m sorry Clifford. Where were they in relation to — Well let’s go back. Where were the rowdy types, the ones that looked kind of like low riders, in relation to where you were at the circle that night?
C.O. – This was over toward the right beach area where we stopped at the truck to get the joint. They were sitting here and the truck was up here.
I am going to skip ahead a little bit. If you haven’t figured out this was the first time Russ Hunt and probably heard about another group of Mexicans at the park that night when Clifford and his friends arrived. Up to that point all Clifford had testified to, including during his Grand Jury testimony, was a about a truck that they traded beer for a joint. During the Grand Jury he couldn’t give a description of the guys they traded with, he said it was 3 guys, now at Spence’s trial it was 4 or 5 guys. Todd Childers would also testify about trading with the guys in the truck, he described them as Mexican and thought there were 4 guys. Clifford now has two groups of Mexicans in the park and Russ Hunt is a little confused. There was a chalk board set up in the court room so Hunt asked Clifford to draw a map of the park and mark where everybody he is talking about that were in the park that night. Clifford complies.
LikeLiked by 2 people
After Clifford drew the map, made his marks and took his seat back on the stand, Hunt asked him a couple questions about the Pinto, Raylene Rice’s car, then returned to what Clifford had told Lt. Horton.
R.H. – Okay. Now you said that sometime a few days later you went over to the Waco Police Department and you talked to somebody over there. Would that have been Lt. Horton that you talked to?
C.O. – True.
R.H. – And Lt. Horton I understand was one of the people involved in the investigation of Lake Murders. So you were talking to the people that were responsible for investigating the Lake Murders, is that correct?
C.O. – Yes.
R,H. – Can you tell us basically what you told Lt. Horton about the low riders that you saw out there at the lake?
C.O. – I just told him that I saw a bunch of suspicious looking people in a car out that were out there when we were out there. And basically that’s all I told him. I just told him that and I told him I saw a truck.
R.H. – Where was the truck?
C.O. – It was parked there. They were in the truck.
R.H. – Okay. I got you. Okay.
That was all of that, Hunt moved on to asking Clifford about what he and David Spence did the next morning when they returned to Koehne Park. So were there two groups of Mexicans out there partying? Did any of the other people the police questioned that were at Koehne Park that night report anything like this? What about a truck, did anybody have anything to say about any trucks at the park that night, and since we know Gilbert had a white truck, even though some will question if it was running, is there anything in the reports about a white truck. You know there is!!!
LikeLiked by 2 people
First I would ask, So Clifford and his friends traded beer for a joint and yes I admit it is very likely they just went up to some strangers to make this trade but that is a good way to get your self arrested. Isn’t it just as likely somebody from one of the groups knew someone from the other group and that’s how the contact was made? Whom reported seeing a white truck?
We have Melinda Wells, she stated she was at the park at approximately 11:00 p.m. and she saw a white truck, a white car, the orange Pinto and the kids at that time. And then we have Candyce Satterwhite. before I get to Ms. Satterwhite I need to address Charles Ramsey and his truck. Ramsey was a wielder and was in the area to bid on a job. After taking care of his business he decided to stop by the park to rest up before he headed home, he ended up staying until close to midnight. Most of the people the police interviewed recalled seeing Mr. Ramsey’s truck but it was described many different ways; a van, a work truck, a truck that wasn’t a pick up, his truck was white and had red lettering on the doors. Although Mr. Ramsey was there during the time in question he wasn’t much of a witness, he was falling asleep off and on all night until he left and he was sure the Pinto was there and never moved from the time he got there which he put at approximately 5:00 p.m. until he left. So Mr. Ramsey’s truck was parked to the right of the pinto from the time the kids arrived until Mr. Ramsey left around midnight.
Ms. Satterwhite and her boyfriend David Pearcy arrived at the park approximately at 10:15 p.m., they parked in between the Pinto which was to their left and Mr. Ramsey’s truck which was to their right. Ms. Satterwhite added she also remembered seeing a white car and as they were leaving she saw a red and white truck. Candyce and David gave their statements to police on July 16th, same as Melinda Wells, so now the police have two witnesses that say they saw a white truck at approximately 11:00 p.m. For those that are interested in keeping count that’s more than there are reliable reports of Tab Harper being in the park that night. The police decide to place the couple under hypnosis. David’s session was done of July 21st and he told the same story he had told on the 16th. Then the next day Candyce had her session. Under hypnosis Ms. Satterwhite says she saw a blond hair girl wearing blue jeans or dark pants and a purple and gray halter top, it looked like the girl was coming from the truck that was parked directly behind the Pinto, Candyce couldn’t be sure, this girl that she saw was standing behind the vehicle. What truck was she talking about? It definitely couldn’t be Mr. Ramsey’s it was parked on the other side of Ms. Satterwhite’s car than the Pinto was, the only other truck she ever mentioned was a red and white truck she remembered seeing as she was leaving. Keep in mind when David and Candyce arrived at the park they sat at one of the picnic tables for a little while then returned to their car and left. And could have Candyce just mixed up the trucks she saw, Ramsey’s was white with red writing on the doors, maybe the truck she saw as she was leaving was just white. Either way it would have been nice if she could given more detail while she was under hypnosis. It leaves us with the question did Melinda Wells and Candyce Satterwhite see the same truck at approximately 11:00 p.m. that night? And could this be the same truck Clifford and Todd would testify about and whom was in that truck?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Earlier I mentioned the condition Clifford Oliver repeatedly states he was in, which one would expect when one is up all night drinking and shooting up crank. But it got me thinking; a group of guys sitting around drinking and doing speed would be a rather noisy bunch. I was talking to Christine Juhl about her testimony the other day, so I guess I should direct this question to her. In her testimony she states she couldn’t be sure if Clifford and his friends and David stayed at the apartment all night or if they left and came back in the morning. She would not see them until David woke her to get ready for work about 6:30 a.m. I take it that the apartment was small, one bedroom. I know Clifford would testify how he knew Christine was there was because he had to use the bathroom, to do so he had to go through the bedroom and that’s when he noticed Christine was in bed. Maybe Christine could give us the lay out of the apartment. And if these guys were at the apartment drinking wouldn’t there be some sign of this, like a lot of empty beer cans. I know David was a heavy drinker but were talking about another 4 guys adding to the collection of empty beer cans, that would be a noticeable difference. Can Christine recall? My point; if the guys didn’t stay at the apartment where did they go and what did they do?
LikeLiked by 2 people
The apartment was a one bedroom. Very small maybe 800 sf total. The Bathroom was located off the bedroom. You had to got though the door of the bedroom to go to the bathroom. If there were 4 guys drinking beer all night in that apt I am sure they would have all needed to use the bathroom throughout the night. Did only one state they had to use the bathroom?
I do not have any memory of 4 extra guys staying all night. I keep thinking they all (including David) left and then came back to take me to work. No I do not have any memory of extra beer cans.
LikeLiked by 2 people
About the bathroom use,Todd was asked this during the trial and he said he and John went outside to relieve their selves. Christine I would like to go over what you have said, you know you have told me that you remember seeing David and Clifford together earlier in the night while you were at work, Correct? You testified David came home after you had come home from work and went to bed, when David came home he went to bed with you and then later in the night some one came to the door. But you have told me you think David and Clifford came to the apartment together that night and you don’t know if they stayed or not. Rather they stayed or not you weren’t sure about when you testified, so that hasn’t changed but David and Clifford coming to the apartment together is a huge change. Could you tell us where you stand on that now?
LikeLiked by 2 people
RS:
I know that Clifford was at the apt early morning of the 14th. I cannot say with 100% certainty who else was there. I do not recall John Arnett. There was at least 2 other people with Clifford when they took me to work at 7am.
The only interaction I had with the kids from the home were though the store. Many would come in to buy stuff. A several girls got weed from Deeb. The conflict between Deeb and Kenneth was apparent. I cannot honestly say I knew Jill.
The book was not always accurate in my opinion.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Thank you Christine.
About your knowledge on Jill………do you know if she ever stayed at Juanita White’s house when she would run away from the home?
Do you remember if Jill &Raylene or Kenneth came by the store on that day (13th)?
Again, I appreciate your willingness to converse with us.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine I think we need to be clear about your statement, “I do not recall John Arnett”, that statement leaves a lot of wiggle room that’s what we are trying to eliminate and stick with facts. As you know when I was informed John Arnett was the Melendez brother’s younger sibling, I asked you about it. My thinking being since Anthony and Gilbert stayed with you and David there was a chance you would have met other members of the family. Remember I have asked you the same about Clifford Oliver’s family, again figuring if they hung out together as much as you have indicated to me, you might have known some of his family. In both cases you informed me you didn’t. So in saying you do not recall John Arnett, what you are stating is that you didn’t know John Arnett at the time so you would not be able to recall if he was there? You are not saying you knew John Arnett and you don’t remember seeing him? Is this correct?
LikeLiked by 2 people
I did not know John Arnett. I did not know until you told me that the brothers had another sibling. Before the fall out in November the brothers and David hung out a lot. I do not remember a 3ed brother ever.
LikeLiked by 2 people
David had two mothers. Juanita White was his real mother. I can see his “2nd” mom allowing this but not Juanita. Not at the house on 15th. Juanita was a good person that had very high morals. She would not have allowed runaways or any other girl stay at her home. If a runaway would have shown up there or anyone under the age of 18 she would have stopped them at the door. If she knew they were runaways she would have called the police. There was no such shenanigans in her home while she lived in the house. She like her home quiet and clean.
That being said….. in the summer and winter of 1981 she lived with her boyfriend. During that time David rented the house from her. David allowed his friends to stay for weeks on end. But when Juanita moved back in that all stopped. It was god sent for me.
Also David’s brother Steve lived with us. Steve was the opposite of David in every way. Very Christian.
No – Jill never stayed with us. Nor any other girl overnight. No, I do not recall seeing them in the store during my evening shift. 6-11
Kenneth nor Gayle had not been in the store in days prior because of the falling out between them.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine you said David had two mothers. I guess you are talking about Dorothy Miles as his second mother? Now we have to be fair here, you and Dorothy Miles didn’t get along, she would not allow you in her house, the reason being you accused her daughters and David of cheating on you and went to her house and tried to start trouble, Mrs. Miles wasn’t going to have any of that.
About people staying at the house with David and you know we have talked about this recently, David brought home girls on a number of occasions even why you were there, I know this is difficult for you to get into but if we are going to put stuff out there we have to be as accurate as possible. You told me yourself David liked younger teenage girls, you were a teenager at the time. Do you remember the girls he brought over? Can you give names? You just said you can’t honestly say you knew Jill. So how can you honestly say a girl you didn’t know didn’t stay there? And you also said, “The only interaction I had with the kids from the home were through the store”. Rhonda Evans had left the home before the store opened so if she was a girl that David brought to the apartment you would not have known her.
Christine you just told me a few days ago, “So much I have forgotten/pushed out of my mind”. Again you know we have discussed at length the problems with your memory or should I say my perception of your memory lapses. Let’s just take a look at what you just wrote,”No, I do not recall seeing them in the store during my evening shift. 6-11″. Now you are positive you worked 6 to 11 that night, remind you that’s not what you testified to. You stated you couldn’t recall when you worked other than you closed, you didn’t know if you worked a full shift or a split shift. I just asked you about this a few days ago, this was one of those other questions you didn’t answer. May I ask what was it that has set your mind so firm of this is just the last couple days? Christine I truly can’t say what you have pushed out or blocked out of your mind. But as I pointed out the other day to you when I was asking you about this, I can see how your mind would want to block out that a girl you saw in the store that day, you realized a couple days later, when you saw her picture in the paper, was one of the girls that was killed and that’s not even thinking about the possibility you recognized her from somewhere else. And up to this time it’s just been easy for you to say I don’t remember when I worked that day. Did you work the day Dana Diamond, a girl you told me you knew and stayed with a couple nights, came in and Deeb told her the girls had come into the store and that the girl he had the insurance policy on was suppose to be with them and he would have been rich if she had been. Again it’s been easy for you to say you don’t remember because you know in your mind then it becomes harder to answer other questions like when Deeb did this didn’t you start to think something could be up especially after you knew David and Deeb had just talked about such a thing only 10 days earlier. And then put that on top of the fact that you stated Deeb knew about the murders the morning before the murders were reported. And we can’t forget David’s parole officer said when he came to visit David and you in your new apartment, which he dates as July 21st, you and David got into an argument and you mentioned you could say something about two girls then David stared you down and you shut up. Christine can’t you see how hard it becomes to believe you didn’t know anything? It was better for you to forget these things, to push them out of your mind.
Really how can any one not question rather David ever said anything or made some kind of comments to you when he was making them to so many other people, you were probably closer to him than anybody and I’m not sure if that really mattered. July 16th, the Friday night after the murders he tells Mrs. Miles he’s done something really bad, Sometime before July 21st, which was why Mr. Deal came to check on David, because earlier David had told him he was afraid he was going to get killed because he knew too much about the murders and then we have Regina Rosenbaum a girl that didn’t even know David and he’s telling her and her friends he raped two girls out at the lake and this was in late July. So David was making these remarks to all these people, people that were like family to him, strangers, even his parole officer but nothing to you? But totally nothing to you, you were completely clueless? Christine can you see the difficulty in understanding this. And you haven’t been able to answer this in anyway, you say you don’t remember, that tells me that there is a good possibility this is some of the stuff you have pushed out of your mind. Christine I know I should handle this with more finesse, it’s a delicate matter and maybe I need to be more sensitive and I’m sorry I might act like a caveman on a coconut ripping into this but the truth has been waiting for 35 years.
LikeLiked by 2 people
1)my shifts where opening 7 -2 and/or close. We closed at 11pm if I am not mistaken. It was slow in the afternoons. I said 6-11 because that’s what on my mind. It could have been 5-11. Kareem liked to be home for dinner. The busiest time was 6 -10. in the future I will state closing shift and not enter a time.
2)Yes, David brought girls home but none of them spent the night. he would take them into Juanita’s bedroom and then they would leave. Yes he like his girls young. I was young too.
3) Dorothy Miles daughter was one of the girls that David Screwed on his real mother’s bed. Cindy or something like that. An older lady that had a very strange voice. Janine or something like that. She had a horse ranch. Rich. I was not like I sat in the living room with these women and drank wine and asked them questions and writing it in a journal. The reason the older lady stood out is because she came to Juanita’s house several times and she called all the time. The reason that Ms. Miles daughter stood out is because I did know who she was.
4) Nope Ms. Miles and I did not get along.
5) No I am not going to remember everything correctly after 35 years some memories fade others stand out but I feel now I may have them muddled together, it was a time of great pain for me and many others.
6)there is no way to answer all your questions. you ask many…. some I need to think about to try to remember. Some I just cannot find the time to complete a reply and end up not posting the respond. I will try harder.
even this morning I am interrupted I must leave for work.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Juanita was a strict woman. Not much got past those intense blue eyes. She knew that if she gave David any leeway he would run all over her. It was her rules in her home. I respected that.
LikeLiked by 2 people
How could I not have known?
1) David knew I would have not talk about murdering Gayle or anyone.
2) David did not trust me with a lot of information. That is humiliating to say but his action proved he had little respect for me.
3) I was not the only person he did not tell… his mother nor brother did not know anything.
4) Clifford claimed not knowing. Yet he was David’s best friend and was with him the morning after the murders even parked beside Kenneth’s car while he with David after the murders. If this account is true…. David would have told Clifford that morning.
5) Simons would have never let me leave the state if had even the slightest tingle in his gut that I knew anything more than what I was stating or withholding information. Simons was not below creating bogus charges and throwing me in jail if I had lied. These good ole boys were not alter boys.
6) I have never hidden. The DA and Simons has always had address and my phone number. When you first reached out I was reluctant. But I responded. I questioned your intent. But I did not block you from contacting me. Nor do I refuse to talk to you because you do not believe me.
There are a lot of conflicting stories in just what you have been researching. And you are getting your information of mostly WHAT? Simon’s accounts? police reports? jail house testimony? From confessions that not only changed but could not possibly have happened in the way they stated? A book wrote by an author that was directed/screen played by Simons?
——————————-Alternate answer———————————————————-
What if they never killed them? How can I know about something that they did not do. Yes I question their guilt. I have just read Gilberts testimony. There are things that do not ring truthful. Like where they left David’s car. Could part of it be made up but other parts truthful…. certainly.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine thank you for replying, I do appreciate you have been willing to indulge me, when you could just have as easily blocked me and said it doesn’t matter, it was a long time ago and it’s over like others have. But we all know questions remain. Have I ever said I do not believe you, what I have repeatedly expressed to you is since in your own words you have pushed so much out of your mind and you admit your memories are not clear and I know there are other accounts out there, isn’t it fair and warranted to question that? Yes I have gotten most of my information from police reports and trial testimony, do you have a better suggestion? The only other thing I can think to do is try to talk to people that were there and maybe ask them things they weren’t asked before or follow up questions that were left unresolved before. that’s what I’m doing now. Christine do you truly think I don’t understand it was a time of great pain for you? But that’s the crux of the matter and it’s trying to get into that, mostly just a few weeks in July, that is most difficult that’s when I know I’m skating on thin ice but I just can’t totally ignore this. On what Truman Simon thought about you, you just said, ” A book wrote by an author that was directed/screen played by Simons?” So by your own admission you are saying it’s the words of Truman Simons, so what he said in the book we can take that to be his thoughts? I know you have no desire to read that book again, so if you would like to be reminded let me know and I will look them up for you. Trust me he had serious doubts about your reliability. I really don’t want to get into that it doesn’t serve my purpose. What Truman thinks of you doesn’t matter because for the same reason I’m questioning you so was he, he wasn’t around David or Deeb, you were. Christine I think that is the point you are missing so I will try to explain it another way.
LikeLiked by 2 people
You know we have talked about whom closed the store that night and you know Kareem Quasem, Deeb’s partner, said he and Deeb closed and you were not there, I will repeat for the umpteenth time I believe you but it does raise questions. This goes toward what I said earlier about asking questions that weren’t asked before. I really can’t expect you to tell me why Kareem said that, even though I know I did ask you if you could think why. I would have to talk to Kareem but I’m not talking to him I’m talking to you. Karrem added further detail, he said he and Deeb went to look for some one that owed Deeb money after they closed the store, I would like to ask him bout that, it doesn’t look like any one else did. Who was this person that supposedly owed Deeb money. And think about it you have repeatedly stated Deeb told you Kenneth had been murdered well before it became news. Deeb the same person that told people he had specific details of the murders and told people Kenneth had been made to suffer, it was slow, cuts around the heart before he was killed. Kenneth and Jill both had these shallow stab wounds to the chest. Wounds inflected to cause pain not to kill. And you don’t think I would want to question the person that testified he was with Deeb that night? I would if I could. Christine I have you, you were close to all these people. I know it may seem like all my doubts are focused on you and that’s not the case, it’s just you are available to question but I have to admit there is a lot to question.
LikeLiked by 2 people
” And you haven’t been able to answer this in anyway, you say you don’t remember, that tells me that there is a good possibility this is some of the stuff you have pushed out of your mind.”
Have you ever heard of PTSD?
Soldiers coming home from war are not the only ones to suffer from PTSD. We all have battle scars.
Yes I put some of my memories in a file. But sometimes a smell, an object, or even a sound can bring memories flooding back that I had filed away. So because we filed that memory – does it make unreal? Does it mean it did not happen?
We all need nudging. How many times has someone said… “hay… do you remember when we were kids and we went to…..” and the memory comes flooding back and with it the emotion and even the smells we felt at that moment. Well the same holds true for bad memories.
We all “file” good memories and bad memories. There is a reason that many victims end up killing themselves, on drugs, drinking or only living half empty lives. We all need to file memories.
There are many thing that I don’t remember but when nudged most come back strong. Others I have to think about it process the information. Some are so painful that even now I push them back. Like me, many surviving victims suffer this fate. ( the events beyond a person’s control that sets in motion what our future will hold) I don’t like to use the word problem or condition but you can call it whatever you like.
And to be told “you a not remembering it correctly” “that’s not how it happened according to Simons” That’s not how it happened according to the book”. “So and so said it did not happen like that”
I ask you to pause…. think….. there is always another view that you not seen yet. Because you cannot possibly see though my eyes, just like I cannot see though yours. And there may be information that still not know or that the book and/or others have intentionally hide. Like the tapes that Dannon has.
This case is a web…. massive….questionable…. and not cut and dry. Yes it is very possible that two different days are running together into one memory in my head. I just need to sort the data and nudge my brain and trigger something- some small detail – that helps separate the two events or something that solidifies my memory is correct.
LikeLiked by 3 people
When I said above about “that’s not how it happened in the Book” and the other remarks… I was not referring to you BK. I am referring to many people from the time this case came to light to now. My family, members of my church, strangers in the grocery store.
Heck one of my employees lived in Texas at that time and then moved to Colorado 5 years ago. It took him a year to get up the courage to ask me if I was Christine Juhl. Ever since then he asks questions and refers to the book. My analogy to him is “Careless Whispers” is like the Comic books of the Walking dead tv series…. some of the charactors in the show are followed the comics while others are changed by the screen writer to glorify themselves. He just laughed and laughed.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Just call me Brian.
LikeLike
Christine we have to get into your relationship with David. You mentioned earlier that it was humiliating to say that David didn’t trust you. Was it more humiliating than the other things he put you through? You just wrote – 1) David knew I would have not talk about murdering Gayle or anyone. Exactly I agree with you 100% he knew you wouldn’t talk. Christine the things he did to you gave him a sense of control, that he could control you. You know David made a show of this when his friends were around, chaining you to the table, putting a leash on you and making you crawl around like a dog, the whole Tony incident what was that, it could prove to the Melendez brother you would do whatever he wanted you to do, bringing other girls over I would guess why he had you chained to the table. This wasn’t humiliating? I know I said this to you before but does the name Charles Manson ring a bell. Controlling. It was mental, physical and sexual abuse, so it is perfectly clear that you would want to push all this out of your mind, that’s totally understandable. And you probably still have mental scars due to this abuse you suffered and blocking out things would still be a part of this. In your mind I know you can say no that didn’t happen and I didn’t block that out but that’s not how it works, whatever you blocked out is locked away somewhere in the deep recesses in the back of your mind locked away. I’m trying to find the key to unlock those memories. So it’s not that I don’t believe you or that you are being intentionally deceitful, as you know there are conflicting stories, you even give conflicting accounts because you still can’t remember. Christine for me and I can’t believe I’m the only one that thinks like this, I”m just the only one stupid enough to ask you about it, I see you were abused , beaten, bruised, broken bones, you were tied behind a truck and dragged down the road, even with all that you stuck around and even came back or let David come back. So what was it that finally made you finally realize it was in your best interest to leave for good. Yes it could have just been the accumulation of things, you finally reached the point you couldn’t take anymore but you’ve told me you can’t remember, you have a date in your head and you know I’m going to get into that and you remember you and David got into a fight that night and you left then returned the next day to pick up you things but you can’t remember why. Christine with all we know you went through, all the things that were swirling around your world at that time, the different accounts, your lack of memory isn’t it reasonable to question that day. What was it that finally made you realize to leave, I think it had to be such a startling revelation that your fear finally caused your basic instinct for survival to kick in and you know you had to get away.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Since I just mentioned the last night you were with David and you know where I’m going with this, you said that night was July 19th and the next day July 20th was the last day you were there, that’s when you returned to retrieve your belongings. Again as you know because we have talked about it, David’s parole officer said he came to the apartment on July 21st and you were there. Christine I guess this can be one time you can say I’m having a hard time believing you but I think any one would feel the same way. It was Mr. Deal’s job to keep track of and keep record of David, then we have you a person that has admitted she’s not clear on things and has exhibited that to me a number of times, whose account do you think most people would put more faith in? I’m not totally counting out that Deal got his dates wrong, just haven’t seen anything that could or would suggest that.
With those conflicting accounts in mind I asked you maybe you had the dates mixed up, hey it’s only a day or two. Then I asked you if maybe the date of July 19th stuck out to you for another reason, maybe there was something else that happened that makes you remember this date. Again with our conversations you are aware that the 19th was the night Patti Deis’ apartment was broken into. Recently you corrected me as to when your suicide attempt took place, I thought it had occurred after the Tony incident, you informed me that it happened after the murders and it had to happen before you left David, again which you put on the 20th. Christine you also informed me that you didn’t get medical treatment from a hospital or other medical facility, you went to your step fathers, he also lived at the apartments, and he patched you up. You can’t recall the date of this suicide attempt, there aren’t any medical records of this incident. Christine you know people can cut themselves with broken mirrors, maybe broken glass, true? A more cynical person looking into this case might point out that whomever broke into Patti’s apartment cut their self when they broke the window to get into the apartment, the blood was still there when the police came to the apartment the next day. It was a significant enough amount that the officers noted that the blood had dripped down on to the sidewalk of the apartment below. I don’t know if they collected any samples of that blood, they did call in the break-in and if I’m not mistaken asked for a special investigator to meet them there. Special investigators is what the Waco Police Department called the people that collected evidence from the scene. So I would think samples were collected, I wonder if they were ever tested and maybe if those samples are still around maybe they should be tested again. Christine this was about the same time you cut yourself, July 19, a date that sticks out in your head for some reason. You say it’s because that’s the night you got in a fight with David and decided to leave for good and did so but Deal tells us otherwise. Christine I don’t believe you took an active part in this crime in anyway I want to make that clear but I could be wrong on that too. I’m just pointing out, when facts aren’t clear that opens the door for any number of possibilities and that is reasonable, that is part of looking for the truth.
So if we look at what else Gene Deal tells us happened the day of July 21st when he came to the apartment to check in on David, do we end up with more questions? Of coarse we do. Mr. Deal tells us that while he was at the apartment you and David got into an argument, he didn’t know what it was about, and you mentioned you could say something about two girls. I don’t know how many times I have asked you about this, all I know is it’s the same number as times you haven’t answered that question. So I guess I have wonder about what two girls you were talking about.
Ok, we have two girls that lived in the apartment that was just broken into two nights before Deal made his visit. We have the two girls that were raped and killed out at the lake. One of those girls had run away back in January with another girl, that makes two girls. One of those girls became a lifelong friend to David, she would visit him on death row, the only girl from the Home to do so. The other girl, the girl that was killed, was picked up by her father when she ran away back in January at a house on 15th street a few blocks away from the store, at a house that sat on a corner that didn’t look well kept from the outside. Christine does that house sound familiar to you, I’ve never been to Waco and it sounds familiar to me. Don’t worry as I’ve told you I’m the only one on that trip. So two girls you could have mentioned that’s a few that first come to mind, are there others that we aren’t aware of?
Deal further states that when you said this David stared you down and you shut up, that’s that controlling thing he had on you. So Christine what happened after Deal left that day? Is this when you and David got into a fight, I could see David not being very happy with you, speaking up like you did, you knew better, you weren’t suppose to talk to men, how did David get when you talked or even looked at other men? I could see a fight or more like a beating taking place. As I told you before, and I don’t want to make this sound like I’m making light of this, but I could see David reminding you that they had an insurance policy out on you too. Christine how would that have made you feel, I could see you for the first time finally realizing that the beatings maybe were not going to be the worst of if, David could do worse, the fear must have been tremendous.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I need to go to bed. I have 5 hours before I need to start another day. I know you want an answer as to why I tried to kill myself.
LikeLike
“hay… do you remember when we were kids and we went to…..” and the memory comes flooding back
But Christine this is not what you do and that’s the question. Remember when I first started talking to you like 10 months ago, you told me you saw the Melendez brothers at the apartment that night. I was surprised and I pointed out the fact that this is not what you testified to. Your reasoning for that was because Vic Feazell didn’t want you to go into detail. Then I explained to you how that didn’t make sense. Vic Feazell would have wanted to hear that Anthony and Gilbert were in Waco, especially Anthony, you would have been the only eye witness that could say Anthony was in Waco. Vic was trying to get indictments on these guys, he would have been able to connect them together that night with an eye witness. You stated Vic didn’t want you to elaborate, Christine no elaboration would have been necessary. Vic could have simply asked you did you see Tony that night, you could have simply replied yes. Then he could have asked you did you see Tony with David, again your simple answer could have been yes. Christine you said Vic told you to give one word replies, you could have done that, so see your memory on that doesn’t add up. I let it go at the time because we weren’t getting anywhere. Then when I brought up John Arnett and how he fit in the picture, you changed your mind, maybe it wasn’t the Melendez brothers you saw that night, maybe it was these people that were with Clifford that you didn’t know. Remind you the whole time you’ve been telling me you are so sure about that night, it sticks out in your memory. Then later when we talked about it again you were back to believing it was the Melendez brothers that were the guys with Clifford and you stayed on that for a while, even telling me the more you thought about it the more you were sure it was the Melendez brothers. Then finally when again I reminded you this is not what you testified to, you said you didn’t remember being asked about this during Deeb’s retrial and wanted to read your testimony which you did. And guess what you finally came to the realization I had been telling you for months, your memories are mixed up.
Christine I have to point out that you read your Grand Jury testimony also, I know this because you told me you had forgotten about the gun and going to the park with David and the Melendez brothers at that time, that’s what made you start doubting yourself, I know that was in your grand jury testimony. And you know what problems that caused with what else you had told me. You told me you remembered it was the Melendez brothers that were with Clifford that night because after the falling out they had with David back in November 1981, you remember seeing them only one time. Christine if you only saw them one time and it was the night of the murders and you went to Speegleville Park with them with a gun, you know what you are saying!!! Anybody that can add 2 and 2 would come up with the same conclusion. But I know that’s not what you were trying to tell me, again I repeat I don’t believe you had anything to do with the murders but you keep making statements like that there are going to be a lot more questions and hopefully not only from me.
Christine what you are failing to see in all this confusion is though you might not be clear on that one night, some information you have might help explain other things. For instance; ok let’s say you only saw the Melendez brothers once between November 81 and before the murders. I know by your testimony you went to the park with them in a truck, you know it wasn’t David’s truck remember he took an ax or hatchet to his truck that night in November then he got the Malibu. So if you went to the park that summer with them in a truck it was Gilbert’s, he bought that truck on July 3rd, the owners had a notarized transfer of title that was submitted as evidence, see how that works. So what does this tell us? Gilbert’s truck was in running order and David and the Melendez brothers had made up by that time. So can you remember if this trip to the park was before or after the murders? Christine you try to keep focus of your memories on one item at a time, that keeps you from seeing the collateral damage your answers present, you are having a hard time seeing the whole big picture at one time because to get your memories clear you have to deal with one item at a time and you know I ask questions by the dozen and I’m like the devil’s advocate drilling you hard on all your replies. Hell the devil would hate to have me as the devil’s advocate, so I know it’s not easy on you.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine you mentioned,” sometimes a smell, an object, or even a sound can bring memories flooding back that I had filed away”. I know we have gone into this a little before, I’m just going to copy the message you sent me one time that’s along these same lines:
Sometimes a smell or action will bring a curtain memory flooding back and knock me for a loop. Or they trigger something that I had not thought of. Back then I would call Truman and tell him when they were fresh on my mind.
And a similar message you sent:
for the first time (that I can remember) I just read something that to me is fishy. I do not remember ever seeing a 1960″s blue truck. What I remember (which is hazy) (but I believe to be accurate) was a light colored off white or dirty white truck that was mid 70″s. In my minds eye…. a 74 chevy is what comes to mind. The reason I say this is because for a few years 2006-9 I owned and ran a quick lube and tire shop. And one of my customers drove a truck that reminded me of that night every time he came in for service. The first time I drove it into the bay I was confused because I did not feel anything. But when I am standing by the truck on the passenger side I could feel the memory bubbling up. whether you would say my mind is playing tricks on me or my memory is faulty or what do I know….. Sometimes a smell or seeing something sets off a chain of thoughts or a memory buried deep within me.
Do you remember those message? And that I told you I wasn’t sure what you were trying to say. I told you there was a condition that sounded like this, one sense triggering another sense, Synesthesia, not sure if you looked into this and what you think.
I have been thinking about this and add to it other things you have stated recently, mainly about how you think it was strange that the Melendez brothers would have left David’s car at his mother’s house that night. And I know I just asked you about this earlier, so you probably haven’t had timed to process it. Is it possible that you saw different people at different times that night or early the next morning? Your comments about these two different colored trucks that set off these memories a blue truck and then a light colored, off white or dirty white makes me wonder this. Todd Childers had a green truck, Gilbert an old white truck.
Is it possible that you may have run into the Melendez brothers at the apartment as they were parking David’s car when you were coming home from work, maybe like they were pulling out in Gilbert’s truck as you were pulling in? Not to say that you thought much about it at the time like maybe as they were passing by you thought it was the Melendez brothers and they were in a white truck, you noticed David’s car was home, you were mad because he didn’t pick you up from work but when you went inside you realized he wasn’t home, which you probably thought that would give you a peaceful night. And then in the morning you saw Clifford and the other guys in a different truck, Todd’s green truck. Depending on what you remember see how that could explain some things. Maybe you had seen the Melendez brothers in that truck before, either way that would tell us Gilbert’s truck was running the night of the murders, but it could also decide if you went to the park with them before or after the murders. If you weren’t familiar with the truck when you saw it that night it would tell us you probably hadn’t gone to the park until after the murders and it would be vice versa if you did know the truck that night. Just something to think about.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I closed the store that night. I called Deeb from the store phone to get a ride home because David was a no show. Deeb drove me home. Kareem was not with him. Kareem went home most evenings. He had a wife and child.
The only thing I could think of is that he told his wife he was at work while he was somewhere else. But that does not make since either. I never seen Kareem look at another woman, but his wife was very jealous.
And because if I had not worked that night but written the time down she would not have paid me. It would have been crossed off. So I find this very puzzling. If someone owed Deeb money why would he need to wreck the yellow car for the insurance money.
If someone owing Deeb money….. my bet would be on Cabina… the girl that lived by the Skaggs grocery store if anyone owed deeb money it washer. She called Deeb for money all the time. Deeb would pay her rent or front her rent money until her payday. But I cannot see this being a reason for both of them to go collect on that in the middle of the night. Plus I know that story was fabricated because Kareem was not with Deeb at 11pm.
I did not see Deeb ever sell pot… only give it to the girls from the home. So I do not see it being a drug thing. If anything he and Kareem were barely keeping afloat. Deeb got an allotment from his parents every month. He always had cash on him. Some of that was from the cash register. He tried to look big money…. but the cash was mostly 5’s and 10’s with a couple of 20’s on the outside.
LikeLiked by 2 people
You know Kabenna never repaid anything she took from Deeb!!! Christine I have to ask you this, are you now trying to tell me Deeb only gave weed to the girls. Remember before you told me he also gave them pills, including Gayle Kelly and you know I told you that was something she denied.
LikeLiked by 2 people
What I said is that he never sold pot (that I knew of). I am sorry that I did not expand that to say “and black mollies.”
He gave it to them. Not sold it. To me it did not seem plausible that Kareem and Deeb were out collecting money from some drug deal after closing is all I was trying to state. I was answering your question regarding if I knew of any money owed to Deeb that would send these two out after 11pm.
Again I will say…. Kareem was not with Deeb when he took me home. the Pills I referred to is black mollies : Mollies is a slang term for amphetamines. Speed…. Doctors prescribed it for weight loss. And is also used for ADHD.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine I want to get back to your dealings with Truman Simons for a minute. Remember they weren’t “alter boys” Has it ever crossed your mind that the authorities didn’t explain all their scheming in it entirety to you? They only told you what they felt was enough to get you to cooperate. police officers are known to do that, they aren’t going to tell your their whole game plan, especially if they feel you were hiding something. Just like Simons said he felt you were trying to get information asking all the questions you were, he thought, and rightfully so, he was suppose to be asking all the questions and you giving him information. So when they arranged for you and David to run into each other to get him upset, which they clearly were trying to do, can’t you see they may had other reasons for that. If they believed you had information that could hurt David and they flaunted that you were cooperating with them in front of him that would get him worried. Christine I would say that was part of their plan and it worked. As I said before David believed he could control you, once in jail he realized he couldn’t and that bothered him. I would say that was the reason for the constant calls to you he was still trying to control you. And then when he saw you cooperating with the authorities that really set him off. What was his response, start telling the other jailbirds you were involved in the murders with him, that you were there. Now I would think most people would understand he was doing this just because he was mad at you. From a law enforcement perceptive if they thought you were withholding anything this was a great way to get it out, divide and conquer.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I have never heard of any jailbird testimony that I was involved. But then again the first testimony that I read was just the other day. Or is this just something that what SIMONS says?
And the reason for the constant calls from the jail is because it was set up and controlled by Simon’s. He was the one on duty that removed David from his cell for those constant calls and listened to every one of those late night calls. Simon’s told me when to push David’s buttons. He told me when to back off… when to play nice and when to set him off.
I never asked for their whole plan. Nor did I ask Simon’s a bunch of questions. I asked him one – why was Clifford not being charged or questioned.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine this is what I’m getting at, you said you asked Simons about Clifford. Clifford did not get connected to this case until Josie called the police in December 1892. So when you first met with Truman Simons on September 15, 1982 he didn’t know anything about Clifford but apparently you did because you’re asking him why Clifford isn’t being charged or arrested. That leads to the simple question what did you know or think that made you believe Clifford should be arrested, well before anyone in the police department knew of any connection?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine you are aware there were many other jailbirds that stated David talked to them, not all testified. The D.A. decided what ones to use and not use, I guess some were more reliable than others.
LikeLiked by 2 people
When I was questioned about Deeb in Sept. I told him there was no way that Deeb could have killed those kids. I was in disbelief. I remember saying David was capable but not Deeb. I do not know if it was the very first meeting with Simons or later in Sept. But it was very early on in the investigation that Simon’s showed me my timecard – I immediately told him what happened in the early hours of the 14th and who was at the apt. it was not until seeing the timecard was I able to conclusively put that night to an event. On the time card in my writing is the Bud beer and Clifford’s cigarettes.
Going forward and before the Melendez brother confessed I would ask Simon’s about Clifford’s involvement and why he was not following up on him. Simons would give me the death stare. You know the one…. When you ask a question and the person is considers what you are asking above reproach and stonewall. To me it seemed like Simons was protecting Clifford. It was a very unnerving.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine I would have to say Truman Simons was interested in Clifford Oliver in December 1982 after Josie called and it looks like he was the only one. Truman set up an interview with Clifford, that Clifford missed, instead he went to Cal Frazier’s to talk about what happened that night and then Clifford got up with Truman the next day. That was very suspicious and you can see that was the sentiment in the Grand Jury testimony. After that Clifford returned to the Navy and Simons probably couldn’t touch Clifford then, he was the property of the U.S. government. Naval Intelligence would interview Clifford in the Spring of 83. So maybe Truman Simons’ reaction to your questions about Clifford was because he wanted to do something about it but knew he could not do anything about it and he didn’t like that.
LikeLiked by 2 people
And Christine how could I go a whole night and not mention our favorite subject: Clifford Oliver. I have to point out that you didn’t address my question regarding your memory or at least what you told me you remembered that you saw David and Clifford much earlier in the night than what has been told and that they came to the apartment together. What are your thoughts on that now? I see you said:4) Clifford claimed not knowing. Yet he was David’s best friend and was with him the morning after the murders even parked beside Kenneth’s car while he with David after the murders. If this account is true…. David would have told Clifford that morning.
Again just getting into the conflicting stories, Clifford testified he only saw David about once a month since he had returned to Waco about the beginning of the year, 5 or 6 times. He didn’t make it sound like they were very close. Hey I have a hard time believing Clifford. Josie told police David did tell Clifford. I think Clifford needs to be put under more scrutiny. Right now you are the only person that I can find that is willing to contradict Clifford’s account. What am I suppose to do about that, if some people got some undisclosed deal they aren’t going to talk and blow that. I’ve tried to talk to both Josie and Diane. So it would really help if you could clear up your head a remember when and where you saw Clifford and probably not just that night
LikeLiked by 2 people
Clifford and David went to a pool hall often. Clifford was a regular at Juanita’s house before she moved back in. Clifford and David both had a hatred for African Americans. Both claimed to be part of a white only group. Clifford and David got into a fight with one guy that ended up stabbing David in the neck earlier that year.
One of the things I am having trouble remembering is the brakes being replaced according to Clifford. I do remember that around the time of the murders that the flywheel or something with the tranny had came apart. But I do not remember needing brakes. Not unusual (most people) would think…..except I knew how to replace brake pads. I recall the Malibu being towed with Clifford’s truck and that David and Clifford were going to hang out together that evening and they did not return to the apt until the early morning of the 14th.
You asked me if it was possible that I am confusing the events. I stated it was possible let me think. I am trying to figure out – do I have two events muddled together? That I am still trying to figure out. And WHY did I decide to try to kill myself? Did I do something or hear something so bad that I had to kill myself? Or was my life in general so crappy and I could not take anymore pain?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine you have mentioned Clifford’s truck a few times, what truck are you talking about? Clifford had a Silver Pontiac at the time. This was the car that was vandalized the night of the murders. Then later he reported it stolen. He had asked the Gutierrez brothers to dismantle it so it couldn’t been found but the police were informed before they could complete the task and then Clifford and Terry Gutierrez took off to California. So could you explain the truck you keep referencing?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine–Re: your suicide attempt, if you have a crappy and frightening life and if there are drugs involved–especially meth or even too much pot–you can be driven to trying to take your life. It’s not any one thing, but the accumulation. And that accumulation of trauma, drugs and depression definitely impact memory. I say this because it seems at times like you are being pressured and because I’ve lived through similar experiences–no murders but plenty of scars. Take care.
LikeLiked by 2 people
DM957:
Thank you for your kind response. Yes we all have battle scars.
I did NOT do drugs, smoke pot, or drink back then. A couple of time I used black mollies (diet pills) while deep cleaning the house. Still don’t use any of them. My home is a drug and alcohol free zone. Been drunk less that 6 times in my life. I do have a problem with needing to be in control of myself even 35 years later. I don’t do well in a passenger set of a car. I sleep closest to exits. I have to be the one to lock the doors. I do not have friends like most people do.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I wish you the best of luck.
LikeLike
DM957, you were asking earlier about Frueh’s police records. I did see a report stating they wanted him to take a polygraph. He was to come back at later date for the test. He in the meantime, got a lawyer and stated he was advised to not allow the polygraph. It was my understanding he was never tested. This was in the police reports on Vic Feazells’ website.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rs7236: I read in the police reports on Vic’s site that the cops asked Robert Frueh to take a lie detector test. It seems strange to me that he could say no and that would be the end of the story–as at least a couple of folks said they saw the kids in his car. Did Robert testify at the trial?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Dm 957, you said at least a couple of folks said they saw the kids in his car. Could you please share where you saw this, I’ve read the police reports many times and other than Deanna Storts reporting seeing this I can’t recall any one else. Her boyfriend Rick Pate only said he remembered Deanna had said something about knowing and seeing the people killed but he couldn’t say he saw anything. Ronald Robinson saw Robert Frueh in the park much later but doesn’t say he saw the kids. In his first interview he states he saw a guy drive the Pinto into the park got out and then got into another car. He would change this during his second interview, the Pinto was already in the park when Robinson got there. Robinson’s time frame matched Frueh’s when he was finally interviewed, that was the problem with Deanna’s statement she saw Freuh much earlier, he denied this and the time he gave match what Robinson had said. Not saying he could have been at the park at both times but the officers didn’t really push things after he got a lawyer. The only other person to mention Robert Frueh was a biker named Bennie Poston, he didn’t see Frueh at the park, his wife worked with Frueh and was aware of some of the Reverend’s activities.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Dm957. Robert did not testify at trial. I always wondered why he wasn’t investigated more thoroughly. Personally, I think that once Truman Simon’s took over the case, they were putting it on Muneer Deeb, D. Spence, and the Melendez brother’s. When I asked about Frueh, Simon’s told me that “He was at the park, but it was later and did not fit the time frame”.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine my point about Deeb giving the girls more than weed is that the girls from the Home were well aware they could get pills, black mollies, speed whatever from Deeb. Is this correct?
LikeLiked by 2 people
To my knowledge he only gave black mollies to me and I think Gayle. it was a prescription diet pill that he had to try and lose weight. He did not give them out like he gave out joints. Joints he gave to any girl that showed interest in him.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine you have told me when David and Clifford got together they would go and start fights. Is it possible that somewhere along the line they may have gotten into some altercation with Kenneth and/or some of his friends before the night of the murders?
The reason I ask this is Gayle Kelly one time asked me if I was aware of what David had done to her friends Lisa Kader and Bobby Brem. I replied I was aware of what he had done to Lisa Kader but I had never heard anything about David ever doing anything to Bobby Brem. I asked her was she just mixing up names because I knew about the Darwin Pack incident. I thought maybe she was mixing up Bobby with Darwin, she never replied. So the question remains and with what you have said about how David and Clifford acted when they got together it looks like the scenario of an earlier confrontation could be possible.
LikeLiked by 2 people
David and Clifford would go out in search of fights with African American men. One night the picked a fight with one such gentlemen at a pool hall. The fight ended with David being stabbed in the neck. Clifford brought him to Juanita’s house. it was not serious enough for stitches but there was a lot of blood. This happened in March or April of 1982 to the best of my recollection. Again this was related to the White supremacy. It was strange that David hung with the two Melindez brothers. But when they were not around Clifford and David would talk about white power. To my knowledge they did not go to pick fights with latino’s. Again acting tough but that day they got their butts kicked. And that is the story of when and why David started carrying a pocket knife.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I would like to explain my interest in Christine’s suicide attempt, I’m not trying to be insensitive. As Christine knows when I first asked her about it I was under the impression it took place in November 1981 after a rather horrifying night. David had tied her up and dragged her behind his truck, Christine tried to get away only to return. I thought this was what caused her to decide to take her life. My question about that was if the blood that was found in David’s car was Christine’s blood from her suicide attempt as it has been reported many times, I wondered how that could be because David didn’t have his car at the time, he had a truck, which is obvious because he tied Christine to it. Christine informed me that wasn’t when she had attempted suicide, she placed her suicide attempt after the murders but before she left David which she puts as July 20th. so we are talking a time space of a week. She remembered they got into a fight and she left and then returned the next day to collect her belongings. When I asked her about this she couldn’t remember what the fight was about and she can’t remember when or what caused her to try suicide. Again I don’t want to sound insensitive but as law enforcement officers say, “The police don’t believe in coincidences”.
By Christine’s own account she got into a fight with David the same night Patti Deis’ apartment was first broken into. Somewhere in that same time period, again Christine is not clear, Christine cut open her arm and did not get proper medical attention so there are no medical records, her step father patched her up. Whomever broken into Patti’s apartment also cut themselves when they broke the window to get in. Coincidence? Maybe but it is worth asking if nothing more than to discount this possibility.
This is what happens when a investigation is prematurely suspended or the detectives fail to follow up all leads, questions get left unanswered and then those questions remain unanswered for decades and the longer they go unanswered the harder it’s to find the answers. Think about if Detective Salinas had followed up on David’s parole officer’s call, which occurred shortly after the murders, that he believed David knew something about the murders and Salinas went to pay David a visit, maybe he would have seen Christine and if she had any injury he could have asked her about it then. Christine wasn’t contacted by any officers until Truman Simons called her late the night of September 14th. Salinas found that Patti’s apartment was broken into on July 20th and saw the blood. Then finally the police find out about the insurance policies. If they started to believe that these insurance policies had something to do with the murders and they believed David had something to do with it, regular procedure would have led any officer to ask and conclude if David did this for insurance money, who else could also benefit from this, of coarse the people closest to him, that would include his live in girl friend. And she had a bad cut on her arm at the time. She can say she attempted suicide but she can’t recall any of the details. I’m sorry that’s suspicious. Yes this is purely speculation and conjecture and yes it could be just a coincident and yes it could have just been an accumulation of the abuse that lead her to try to take her life but Christine can”t recall the details so it’s a fair question.
If we believe the truth of what happened in this case hasn’t been told we have to be willing to ask the questions that weren’t asked then, asking the same questions and getting the same answers won’t get us anywhere. This question should have been asked back then and probably would have if the first investigators followed up on all the leads they got but they didn’t. My intention is not to harm or hurt Christine in anyway and I know dredging up all these terrible memories from her past is difficult for her but she is one of the few people that was around many of the central characters during the critical hours of July 13th and July 14th. She was around these same people for months before the murders and the aftermath until she left Waco in August, A clear recollection of that time period from her is invaluable and greatly needed. I think she understands that.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Brian: I did not break into Patti Deis’ home. Would it help you if I sent you a picture of the scar? It no coincidence it was in the time frame. It was a horrible time for me. I am sure there are other victims of violence that at one time or another wanted to end it all.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine a few days ago when you were trying to explain to me how things were between you and David you made the comment, ” IMO knowing now what I did not know then”. That’s reasonable you would think that would be the case for anyone, once removed from a situation and with the passage of time, you take a step back, gain a different perspective, looking from the outside and gaining a different understanding of things that were going on in your life and the environment that surrounded you. I would hope that this new self awareness and awakening would not only include your relationship with David but also your work life, what went on around you at the store. And taking that step back and gaining the perspective from the outside you can understand how some one that was always on the outside, like me, could perceive and question things. With that said I would like to talk about Deeb, the girls, David , the store.
Christine you knew Deeb before you went to work for him at the store, you knew him for at least a few months before, even before you knew David. You met Deeb while you were working at the first Taco torch, he would come in for lunch and talk to you. Then you transferred to the second Taco Torch, you were crashing on your manager’s couch and that’s when you met David. Is this all correct so far? I want you to clear up any inconsistencies I may be repeating, I’m only going my what’s in the police reports and testimony.
I take it somewhere along the line you became aware of feelings Deeb had for Kabenna Reed, I know at some point you knew whom Kabenna was. Kabenna stated she knew Deeb for about two years before the murders occurred, so she was in the picture before you met Deeb. From what I have read Deeb didn’t have much of a social life, didn’t have a lot of friends, didn’t go out much. Pretty much he went to work, hung out at Kareem and Lisa’s place, they lived across the street, he would crash on their couch regularly and in between that it looked like he spent most of his time stalking Kabenna. Again is this correct? This was well before Gayle Kelly came into the picture. Christine you were aware of Deeb’s immigration status? If so when did you first become aware? He was in America on a student visa, which stipulated he had to be in school, which he wasn’t doing at the time. His solution to this problem was to try to find a girl that would marry him so he could get his citizenship parers. He offered girls $500 to marry him. Are you aware if he started doing this before he opened the store? Earlier you stated that Deeb would give weed to any girls that showed interest in him, I would say that statement is a little off. Deeb would give weed to any girls at the school and he would ask any girl to marry him, maybe you were not aware of this at the time but a number of girls from the Home said this was the case including Lisa Kader and Dolores Perez. They said he would ask any girl and offer to pay $500. So there was a difference between any girls he would proposition and give weed to and then girls like Kabenna and Gayle where he had a stronger affection for. Correct?
So from your perspective had Deeb’s life changed much from the time you first met him while you worked at Taco torch and the time you went to work for him at the store, which you testified was March but there was some question that it could have been May. Other than opening the store Deeb’s life hadn’t changed all that much, he was still stalking Kabenna and still trying to find some one to marry him. Correct? Christine you stated earlier you didn’t know Deeb to be a drug dealer and I would have to say the record would support that. When some of the kids that went to school with Kenneth were questioned none knew they could get drugs or weed from Deeb, only the kids from the Home knew this, so whatever dealing Deeb did was exclusively to the kids at the home. I would add this is not the case with the Melendez brothers, a number of the kids said they knew the Melendez brothers from selling weed at the high schools.Christine what conclusions to you think can be made from this. From an outsider’s point of view I can tell you, it looked like Deeb was trying to find some one to marry him before he opened the store but there doesn’t seem to be any drug dealings, not saying he sold drugs, before he opened the store and came into contact with a certain isolated group of kids, the girls from the Home. Feel free to add anything to this.
Now getting to David for a minute, I guess we can say at the time you were not aware for most part whom David hung out and what he did with them. But I have recently made you aware the girls knew David before the store opened, Gayle and Rhonda both told me this. They knew him from partying out at the lake/ Gayle said this happened a lot more than was testified to in court. She added David and the Melendez brothers were always trying to befriend the girls. I take it that when the girls went out to the lake to party and needed party supplies, beer, weed, drugs David and the brothers were there to take care of their wants. I guess that can be questioned. But Christine you knew back then that David drank heavy did drugs and I’m not talking about popping a couple pills like black mollies, or white crosses, or pink footballs, or 357’s or any other pills you could find floating around any high school back during that time, I talking crack, shooting up. You have also stated he couldn’t keep a job and he never had any money. Christine the obvious question would be how did he afford his habit. Christine don’t want to sound degrading but I don’t see a Taco Torch or Rainbow Drive-in pay check as enough to cover your regular needs as a couple and on top of that pay for a alcohol and drug habit which again you state he was doing all the time. Christine don’t you think it is obvious he was doing something to get some money to feed his addictions?
Christine how would you describe the relationship between David and Deeb? I know I’ve asked you before if you knew where David or Deeb got the drugs they did or gave away,you told me you didn’t know. You don’t think they were growing and manufacturing their own do you? And knowing both guys as you did, between the two whom do you think would have had the better drug connections? For me that is simple I’m going with the guy with the drug habit over the guy that didn’t have much of a social life and didn’t have a history with drugs. Christine do think the kids just started coming into the store and asking for weed without having any reason to believe before hand they could get some or is it more likely that some one initiated this. Like some one at the store knew they could get weed or drugs from some one at the store? And if this was the case whom do you think this could have been? Again I can give you the simple answer, since the girls knew David from partying at the lake and David was hanging out at the store, when these same girls started coming into the store and saw David they knew he could hook them up. Sounds logical at least to me but Christine what do you think about that?
So in my scenario, here we have his guy David just hanging out, not working, partying with teenage girls and then we have Deeb can’t even pay a girl to marry him and we know Deeb went to David when he wanted to wreck his car and if you believe they are guilty of these murders which I do, then we know Deeb went to David to take care of Gayle and Kenneth, I would say it looks like Deeb went to David for a lot of things Deeb didn’t know how to handle or deal with himself and I would say that would include how to get the attention of the girls like David did and that put in Deeb’s head he should start to be the good time guy where the girls could get the beer and weed and pills they wanted. And some girls took advantage of this. Christine I realize you probably didn’t take notice of this at the time but looking back now can you see this is how it could have been?
Christine let’s get back to Kabenna, Gayle and to a lesser degree Dana. So the offer of $500 and giving weed Deeb did was to any girl he could ask but we know it was different with Kabenna and Gayle. Can we even start to calculate how far he would go for these girls? Deeb had been working on Kabenna for about two years, the paid her rent, her car payment, any of her bills, bought her things, he even bought her a ring, anything she wanted, you told me you thought her taste were more expensive than Gayle’s, so Kabenna took Deeb for all she could and in return she went out with Deeb a couple times. Things weren’t quite as drastic with Gayle, one thing she was living at the Home when they first met so she didn’t need as much but he or they would try to change that but again Deeb probably would have done anything for her. Then when Dana came along, she moved to Waco in June 1982, Deeb started showing her the same treatment.
Things got to the point with Kabenna, she would finally call the please on Deeb, there weren’t the stalking laws back then that we have today so I guess it was some harassment charge, she decided to drop the charges once Deeb was arrested for the murders, Deeb was hanging around her apartment late at night just sitting in the parking lot watch her apartment all hours of the night. Deeb told her he didn’t want her to see other guys and anytime she did Deeb showed up, so she was afraid to even go out with anyone. We have a similar thing with Dana, Deeb threatened to blow up her and her boyfriend Steve if Dana didn’t stop seeing him, if Deeb couldn’t have her nobody could. Dana would later marry Steve.
Then we have Gayle, Christine you are aware she had a boyfriend at the time, Henry? She would marry him some time later but it was a serious relationship at the time, Gayle had told many people Henry was the guy she was going to marry. So Christine the question becomes as Deeb’s history shows when he became obsessed with a girl he went after their relationships or whom they were dating. This is not the case with Gayle, we hear of no threats, Deeb doesn’t make any kind of threats about Gayle seeing Henry but for some reason he is uncontrollably enraged with her friendship with Kenneth. Christine could you explain or help me understand this? Past behavior is the best determining factor is predicting some one’s future behavior, going by Deeb’s past behavior he would have reacted to Gayle’s relationship with Henry but he does not, he goes after Kenneth. Why? To me it tells me the problems Deeb had with them was over something else. Christine do you have any thoughts of what that could be? Is it fair to say Gayle could have talked Deeb into giving her anything she wanted? Maybe something he was planning on get paid back on? Christine in September of last year Gayle responded to one of my messages with this reply, well this is part of it, “See this exactly why I never did interviews not only did vic frazzelll lie alot stuff never was made public including my previous encounters with David,I never did pills,but Jill did,we all smoked pot,so I made it my business to hustle Deeb.but the joke really was on me”. Christine what do you think she meant by that?
Christine, looking back now do you have a different perspective and understanding?
LikeLiked by 2 people
I find it highly unlikely that David and the Melendez brothers where hanging out with the kids prior to the murders at the lake. Because they had a following out in Nov 1981. And by their own accounts they had not seen David in the months prior too. And not to mention your hero Simons tracked their whereabouts in the months prior to the murders and found this to be the case also. This is also collaborated by me. I know.. I know …you are rolling your eyes thinking…. well we all could have been lying.
IMO – no kid other than other than the kids that were fed suggestive information by Simons has stated that David or the brothers hung out at the lake. Nor was there any talk in the store between myself and any kid including Gayle that suggested that that they knew David in any form or in other in any capacity – other than casual verbal contact at the store. Not once did Gayle or any kid from the home come in and say “hay David got any weed? Hay David thanks for hanging with us at the lake last weekend.” And not once was the Melendez brothers names mentioned by David in a positive way from November 1981. Matter of fact David would say he would mess them up if he ever seen either of them again.
Gayle never mentioned to Deeb or anyone at Rainbow that she had a boyfriend. She played him well. She flirted and strung him on. Do you believe Deeb would have gotten an apt for her if he knew she had a boyfriend? Again his past behavior would answer that question. I think she is making these statements now because she did not want her husband to know how manipulating she was. So of course when he found Kenneth and her kissing or making out at the apt he had just got for her – he got mad. So she was not just playing Deeb… if she indeed had a boyfriend she was playing every man/boy she knew.. The only boyfriend she had to my knowledge was DEEB. Gayle worked a few hours at the store during this time frame. I was there when Deeb gave Gayle black mollies. I was there when she would come on to DEEB. I was there when she signed the insurance policy that state that DEEB was her common law husband. Don’t forget she did not correct the error when the insurance guy asked about their relationship.
About the pills – she may have been getting them for Jill not herself. I cannot say I witnessed her swallowing the pills. Deeb did not give or sell weed to Kenneth to my knowledge. He only gave it to the girls. Which goes with what others have said and testified to. So I do not see any of events having anything to do with Kenneth owing Deeb drug money. Again another story that was FED to the brothers by Simons and/or the DA IMO.
Kenneth did not interact with David like you would think a teen would that was at the time buying drugs from someone. At least that I ever witnessed. Matter of fact by all accounts not just mine – Kenneth and David only knew each other in passing if they knew each other at all.
Deeb was giving girls weed before I started working at the Rainbow. And that was before he met David. I knew Deeb for at least a year if not two before the Rainbow. He worked in Hewitt. I worked the evening shift at Taco Torch as I was in high school. He would come into the Taco Torch on Hewitt drive a lot for his dinner. He ordered the same thing every time. Bake potato with Taco meat and nacho cheese.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine, you doubt David and the Melendez brother hung out at the lake. You are missing two critical points Gayle never said they were hanging out together, she just recalls seeing them at the lake. Second we are talking before the store opened which could include before the November fall out. Remember Rhonda left the Home before the store opened, she never returned to the Home after she ran away with Jill in January, so when she met David at the lake it was prior to then. Are you telling me you believe both girls are lying. I would ask why? Gayle believes David, the Melendez brothers and Deeb are guilty. Rhonda on the other hand holds some affection for David and at least would like to believe he is innocent. I don’t see them lying about this same fact. Gayle is just pointing to the fact that she knew David better than was presented in court. Rhonda is saying she doesn’t believe David would have killed the kids because they were friends from partying with them at the lake. Same story different perspectives.
Christine nothing as been collaborated by you that’s the problem. When Deal says you were at the apartment July 21, you say no that’s wrong. When Doris Tucker says you got into an argument with Deeb at the store in August over money he owed David for something that he did for Deeb that you claimed would have put them away for life. Again your reply and recollection is no that’s not how that happened or how the argument went. When Truman Simons says he didn’t get any information from you and you were just asking questions, as you expect from some one that is trying to be deceitful and trying to get information so they can craft their answers around the information the police have. You say that’s not how that first meeting went. And the documentation of that day would support Simons version. He wasn’t getting anything from you, so it was decided to place you under hypnosis to see what they could get from whatever was in that mind of yours. We don’t have to believe Simons, the officer that conducted the hypnosis session, Luedke, put it in the files. Then we have the interview Salinas and Baier had with you in the Spring of 83, the one you would testify to that the officers had inaccurately typed up what you said. Christine do you see the common element here? Anytime your name is brought up in connection with this case, all the other people are wrong, never you, I wonder what the odds of that being possible could be. Definitely no collaboration.
You stated, ” IMO – no kid other than other than the kids that were fed suggestive information by Simons has stated that David or the brothers hung out at the lake.” Again you would be wrong there is Rhonda Evans, she never talked to Truman Simons for one. And we should look at what some of the kids said to other officers long before Simons took over the case. I will get to that later. You said there wasn’t any talk between you and Gayle about her knowing David in any capacity other than contact in the store. I think you have repeatedly said you really never talked to Gayle. So if you never really talked to Gayle, how would she be telling you how she knew David? Or now do you want to change your recollections?
I wasn’t trying to say Deeb ever gave Kenneth anything, that was my point. Gayle could get anything from Deeb, when other friends probably couldn’t. Deeb would have been the perfect target or you can see how the kids thought so, if they ripped him off what could he do, he couldn’t go to the police, he was too weak and a push over to take care of his own business. How far could have Gayle taken things?
Kenneth and David both hung out at Pinocchio’s pool hall as did Clifford Oliver, John Arnett, Todd Childers, Cal Frazier, the Gutierrez brothers and the Melendez brothers, you honestly believe they never had any contact?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Kabenna: No she was not like the others. Yes she had and demanded more stuff. Yes Deeb would sit outside her apt late at night watching. He was like a puppy dog.
I am happy to hear that Dana is doing well.
As far as Gayle’ statement about the joke was on her – it is my feeling that she is talking about the life insurance policy and how easy it was for Deeb to talk about killing her. The whole time she was playing Deeb it was indeed Deeb playing her. But I do not feel that the policy was taken out with the intent to have her killed. Keep in mind at the time Gayle worked for the store. Deeb understood English very well. And he was book smart. And it was explained to him and her that if she got hurt it would pay up for her missing work. Kinda like Aflac is now. It is my belief that he took it out trying to look like he was her knight in shining armor. He was setting her up in an apt Because she and he planned to live together and Deeb hoped to get her to marry him.
And her statement about Vic….. ummmm…… did you ever think that just maybe that the LE and DA did lie to her? hummmm was the Melendez brother the only ones that claimed that they were promised freedom or reduced sentences to go along with the ever changing stories? And who was it that ignored other law enforcement officers leads/evidence and convicted the wrong person in the Juanita White case. Simons and Vic worked hand in hand. And you talk about no coincidence. Look at how Vic evolved. The drugs the lifestyle…… And your statement about one’s past actions reflect how it will be in the future….. or something like that. the link below details so many similarities to the handling of the the lake waco murders. IMO
http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=3720
Okay I am ready for my next character bashing and the next questions.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine how do you think L.E. or the D.A. lied to Gayle? I know what she was telling me about that, she was saying she knew it wasn’t a case of mistaken identity and she told them about the interaction between the girls from the Home and David, so Simons and Feazell would have known this prior to going to trial. Rhonda would repeat the same thing though she never said she talked to law enforcement. That was one of my questions to her because when she originally talked to the police she never said anything to them, she said she was afraid to talk at that time because she was a run away. When I pointed out that she wasn’t a run away when the police came to talk to her she was in the foster home, that’s when she didn’t want to talk anymore. So I really can’t say whom she talked to but she told me she talked, talked and talked and no one would listen. She mentioned Brian Pardo, so I take it she talked to some one working with Mr. Pardo when he was involved in the case.
Christine you said Gayle worked at the store, again this is a new revaluation. Up to now the story has been Deeb offered Gayle a job, that was the plan when she returned from Fort Worth or where ever she ran away to but then that’s when they had their falling out and she never went to work for him. Again would you like to correct that story? You say Deeb caught Gayle and Kenneth making out, again this is new. I would also point out, you and Kareem were the only two to say Deeb caught them together and that’s why Gayle left the apartment. Both Kareem’s wife Lisa and Dana Diamond said Deeb kicked out Gayle because she was having parties at the apartment. Lisa even testified she went to the apartment the night Deeb kicked out Gayle and witnessed this. I know you have been reading the testimony, you will see this because it was a very important moment. Deeb’s attorney had successfully been able to keep Deeb’s drug dealings with the kids out of the courtroom, this was during one of his pre-trial motions. But now there were witnesses saying that Deeb didn’t like kids taking drugs and drinking alcohol, it was against his religious beliefs and he was so morally opposed to it, the D.A. said wait a minute I can prove he wasn’t so morally opposed to it because he was supplying the alcohol and drugs to the kid and with that he was allowed to bring in testimony about Deeb’s activities. So Christine whom was trying to push Vic’s and Simons’ story then, Vic wasn’t even handling the case then, it was Lane.
Whatever was the cause for the falling out between Gayle and Deeb, we know the problem between Kenneth and Deeb had started long before this. Gayle and Jill both worked at Fort Fisher for some time. When Gayle ran away the time Deeb drove her where she wanted to go, this was right before she would move into the apartment, she never went back to at the Fort. We know Jill stopped working at the Fort before she returned home, she had been home about 3 weeks before the murders. We know Gayle signed the insurance policy on June 22nd, so this had to be during the time her and Deeb were still getting along and was after she had returned to Waco from her little sojourn. That puts mid to early June as the latest she could have worked at the Fort. From the girls supervisor at the fort, again not some one that talked to Simons she talked to Baier in November after Simons had left the police department, she tells him that Deeb would come out and see Gayle and she remember one time Gayle, Jill and Deeb were having a heated discussion about Kenneth ranks, Deeb became agitated. Christine this was well before the apartment, have any ideas what this could have been about. Do you want us to believe that Deeb would get so worked up that he would run off and cause a scene because some kid called him a name or flipped him off?
You question if Gayle had a boyfriend at the time and/or if Deeb knew of this. Christine are you aware more girls from the home testified for the defense than they did the state and they all pretty much had the same story, Gayle and Henry were in love and some of these girls had told Deeb this over and over. I guess they thought he was a nice guy and they hated seeing him waste his time and money. So Christine you want to say this is all fed to these girls by Simons, so I guess Gayle marrying this guy was just so she could keep Simons story looking real! Christine I know you seriously dislike Truman SImons but you can’t allow that to blind your judgment. I have admitted I defend Simons on many things but I do so because he looks right.
Christine you keep saying this is stuff Simons was feeding the witnesses or feeding them, what do you mean by that? Truman Simons’ view or theory he was pushing is that it was a case of mistaken identity. That it didn’t have anything to do with drugs, the other officers thought this was the reason, mainly because when the other officers brought up Kenneth’s name the kids mentioned he was into drugs, either selling or indulging himself, he owed people money for drugs. I think Truman is wrong on this I believe there was a drug connection. You asked me once what my thoughts were and this is basically it. Kenneth ripped off Deeb in some way probably with the aid of Gayle. Deeb wanted revenge but couldn’t do it by himself so he got a third party involved, which I would think David helped arrange. Maybe it was some one that already had a problem with Kenneth over earlier deals, maybe the Melendez brothers maybe Clifford Oliver. And they all thought they would be taken care of with the insurance policy. They wanted to kill Kenneth but they had to kill Gayle for the pay off and Deeb became ok with that once they had their falling out.
Jill’s mother sensed something was wrong with Jill before she left to go to Waco. Jill started acting somber and moody and wouldn’t talk after Kenneth had called Jill on the Sunday night before. Jill had asked her mother that night, what should she do when she was in love with some one she knew was trouble The day of July 13th both Jill and Raylene are cashing checks, it looks like they are trying to get up money for something, Deeb tells a number of people they came to the store that day. Christine there is just too much out there that points to the kids just didn’t accidentally run into their eventual killers by chance. That’s not what Truman Simons is pushing.
LikeLiked by 2 people
.Regarding”I think you have repeatedly said you really never talked to Gayle. So if you never really talked to Gayle, how would she be telling you how she knew David? Or now do you want to change you recollections?”
————————————————————————————————————————-
Again I notice you don’t like what I say so you deflect ———————-
So let me make this clear to you again __________________ what I said was that I had no personal interactions with Jill or with Raylene. I knew Gayle only thought the store. If you misunderstood or if I said the name Gayle instead of Jill I apologize. I have recounted may instances when Gayle was in the store to you…. including being there when she signed the Accident policy. I taught her to use the register. I was there many times when she would come in to visit Deeb. And when she would come in and get pot from Deeb. The Mollies…. He would give her free stuff. What I have also been clear to you is that neither Kenneth or Gayle had been in the store (while I was there) from the day Deeb kicked her out and that even after the murders Gayle did not come in. I do recall one day Kenneth driving though the parking lot and flipping Deeb off. He did not stop he just did a “drive by flip off”. This was after Gayle was kicked out of the apt. And that I do not recall if Jill or Raylene stopped by that day. Kenneth would not have come into the store.
So you want me to believe or do you have proof that Deeb was selling to anyone? Unless there were others that have come forward at the time of the murders that Deeb was a dealer am I not going to buy into that. Or are you are selling a story that Kenneth was Deeb’s only distributer for pot? Why don’t you go one step further and accuse me, Kareem and Lisa? After all Lisa went to Mexico to see her sick mother! The only way you can make this scenario work is to put us all in the mixer. Square peg in a round hole…. Kenneth’s drug activity is just that….HIS DRUG ACTIVITY. I am not defending Deeb I am just stating I was there 40 hours a week and at no time was there any signs that deeb was dealing to anyone. You have shown me nothing to prove he ever did. To my first hand knowledge he only gave pot the girls.
From my first had knowledge = Gayle stated to all of us at the rainbow that Deeb was her boyfriend they were going to live together. Deeb got her an apt and she moved in. History tells us (Cabina) that he was know to get or furnish money for living quarters for his woman. I do know that when Deeb caught Kenneth and Gayle kissing as per his direct statements to me (I have no first hand knowledge or statements made about her being kicked out for a party at the apt) Deeb was angry and he kicked Gayle out because he thought she was cheating on him as they were a couple. What she stated to her friends or other boyfriend(s) is not within my knowledge. It is highly probable that she acted one way with her friends and acted totally different with Deeb and us at the rainbow. Why in the world would Deeb go visit her at fort fisher? To check up on his girlfriend or to just hang with 16 year old girls? My common since would tell me he was checking up on his girlfriend the same way he did Cabina. Again his past actions are directly related to his future actions… I knew he went out to see her at fort fisher several times IMO it was not to take her a snicker bar to share with her other boyfriend. But I do not know what they talked about because I was not there. I can only tell you what I seen, and what Deeb stated and to her statements and interactions at the Rainbow.
you keep asking for my first hand accounts because I was there. But when I tell you, you have the same knack as Simons. If it does not fit with what you think happened no matter what facts you are given – you disagree or chose to put blinders on or instead of proving it (give me links to testimony or evidence) you post something that makes the other person look bad. Its called deflecting…. its something that poppas asses do to make themselves feel better.
I have admitted that I could have the mixed up two instances with clifford’s friends and the brothers on the morning of the 14th. I have cannot recall the reason I attempted suicide.
I keep trying to help you.
I have no illusions that David was beneath anything that happened – the murders or the rapes after the murders. Nor have I sugar coated what was happening during that time frame. Have I refused to talk to you when you insult me and allude to my involvement during or after the fact?
As for one reason why I feel that Simons/DA was feeding people information – until I read the confession testimony I did not doubt that the Melendez brothers were guilty. Their accounts do not match nor do they add up. Hell they did not even know where David lived .. we had moved out over a month before.. they did not have contact with David or each other so the only ones that could have fed them the stories is…… drum roll……… you figure it out!
the way you can normally tell if a confession is cohorts is the story changes over time to fit the circumstances that LE wanted them to tell the jury. Again you cannot have it both ways. Either their stories are true or they were fed to them slowly as new things arise over time. Hence Gilberts says it was mistaken identity. Tony says a drug deal or money owed to a 3ed party.
Its either one or the other or if it was a combination of both then their stories would have matched from the beginning.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine it doesn’t have to be one or the other, any crime can be committed for a number of reasons and this is more common when there are more than one perpetrator and no their stories don’t have to match for many reasons. One they aren’t telling the truth, they are describing the events from their point of view which would be different, they could have been totally wasted and really just can’t remember all the details, all these are viable possibilities. About giving you links, I gave you the links and you are reading the testimony so you have been to the sites.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine now you are saying they didn’t know where David lived, last week you were saying it didn’t make sense that they would have dropped David’s car at his mother’s, whom is trying to have it both ways. You keep saying the brothers didn’t have any contact from the time of their November fall out. You said the other day that they say this in their testimony, they don’t, Tony says he hasn’t seen his brother in some time but when he get’s with David, David tells him he’s going to see Gilbert. Gilbert at some point says David had brought up the Deeb problem a couple days before the murders, so David and Gilbert would definitely be hanging out together then. And then we have your usual inability to help clear this up. You went to the park with the three in Gilbert’s truck sometime that Summer but you can’t recall when. Either it was before the murders, which would again point to the brothers hanging out together again before the murders or it happened afterwards but you can’t answer that simple question. Not trying to make it fit either way, so I’m not disagreeing with you I’m just pointing out that again you have trouble with the truth whatever it is. You are being dishonest when you say I disagree with you when it doesn’t fit what I think. Christine when you repeatedly told me the Melendez brothers were the people that came to your apartment with Clifford that night, what did I tell you? I told you I wanted that to be true but I wanted you to be sure, I wanted the truth I didn’t want to bend the facts to go along with my narrative, I repeated this to you over and over, so now you are trying to say I’m not looking for the truth but just want things to fit my narrative? Do you remember these conversations we had, if not I still have the messages.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine I will repeat this again, this is what I mean when I say you are being difficult, I don’t think Deeb was a drug dealer and have said this over and over. But Knowing girls like Gayle and Kabenna could get pretty much anything they wanted from Deeb I can see Gayle going to Deeb asking for him to front her a few ounces so Kenneth could sell. Wanting to impress Gayle with his money which looks like he tried to do he agreed to do this, planning to get paid back from putting this much money out. Kenneth didn’t pay Deeb back. When Deeb realized Kenneth wasn’t going to pay him back, he went to Gayle, thinking he and her were closer that was the case trying to get her to get Kenneth to pay him back, argument at Fort Fisher. After this Gayle decides to take off to stay out of the middle of it. But Deeb still trying to impress her sets her up with the apartment, offers her a job, takes out the insurance policy. Then he finds Kenneth and Gayle are hanging out and that causes the fall out between Gayle and Deeb, then Gayle refuses to see Deeb, with that he’s had enough and he starts to put his plan together but how can he get to Kenneth and Gayle both of them are are avoiding him by this time he needs to find away to draw them out. Knowing that they ripped him off on a drug deal what better way to get their interest again but he needs a third party. An unknown third party makes contact with Kenneth they could make some big money, hence Gayle Kelly’s statement during her first interview with the police. The third party has to tell Kenneth he is connected to Deeb in some way, that way when Kenneth sees Deeb or people associated with Deeb (David) Kenneth won’t become alarmed. This third party informs Kenneth that he is aware of the problem that exists between Kenneth and Deeb and that needs to be resolved before he can deal with Kenneth, can’t start dealing with some one you know already owes another guy money for some weed. Now with this Kenneth has to find a way to fix things up with Deeb he needs money. That would be the Sunday night call to Jill and Jill’s reaction afterward. Hey Jill still had feelings for Kenneth and wanted to help him but she was worried about it but she agrees to help. Jill and Raylene try to get enough money together to take care of the problem. They go to the store to pay off Deeb. Now this has put a wrinkle in Deeb’s plan he didn’t see Kenneth turning to Jill but now he knows Jill is aware of what’s going on, he can’t let those girls leave Waco, Deeb tells Jill that he wants to deal with Gayle and Kenneth, Jill isn’t aware Deeb is planning to kill anybody, so she tells him she will get up with Kenneth and Gayle, this is why Deeb would later say Gayle was suppose to be with them. Jill contacts Kenneth tells him what has happened and he needs to be present. The girls pick him up and go to the park with the plan to meet Deeb. But Deeb has sent David and company when David arrives he tells the kids Deeb has sent him to come get them and they all get into David’s car believing they are going to see Deeb and take care of the problem, they don’t know Deeb has planned to take care of this problem by kiling them. The killers split the money the girls had, there was never really any drug deal it was just a set up. But Gayle wasn’t there they still need to take care of her, hence the break-ins but then with Kenneth out of the picture Gayle and Deeb make up until he confesses he killed the kids. Christine I know there are some wholes in this theory but it’s more sound than any other I’ve heard. Christine why kill Kenneth that night when he was with so many other people and made the task that much more difficult why not just wait for another day when he was alone or was definitely with Gayle? They couldn’t let Jill and Raylene return home they could talk.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine now I’m going to show you some of the police reports and what some of the kids said about Kenneth and his drug activity. I will start with Mike Nicoletti’s report for his first interview with Gayle Kelly on July 20th.
Kenneth Franks had made the comment to Gayle Kelly that they would be coming into a lot of money soon because of the fact Kenneth had begun a new partnership with a subject he referred to as a new dealer and that he did not wish to give the new dealer’s name for her safety. Gayle Kelly tried to get the name from Kenneth Franks however Franks’ only comment was that Gayle Kelly knew who the subject was however he did not want to name him and he was a dealer who had left Waco and come back recently.
On July 15th Jill and Kenneth’s case worker at the Home. Mary Bellheimer, talked to officers from both the Waco Police Department and the Waxahachie Police Department. Officer Porterfield from Waco went to the Home at approximately 9:00 a.m. that morning. Then Captain Sullins from Waxahachie talked with Ms. Bellheimer approximately at 10:15 am., at this time Mary told the Captain she had received information that Kenneth was dealing dope. Captain had also gotten information from Jill’s parent that Jill supposedly was suppose to meet a new speed freak in Waco. .
. On July 16th Salinas talked with former Methodist Home resident Kenneth Adkisson. This subject knew both Jill and Kenneth and he did not believe Jill would have gotten into a car with some one she didn’t know. He also stated he knew Kenneth Franks was involved in drugs. took speed and smoked a lot of grass. Franks had a habit of smoking grass from between $80 and $150 a week and that they were paying anywhere between $80 and $120 an ounce and Franks would smoke or give away one or two ounces a week. Adkisson remembered Franks getting into an altercation with a white male about two months before, the white male told Franks if he didn’t pay him the $150 he owed him he was going to get him taken care of. The information from Mary Bellheimer, Captain Sullins and Kenneth Adkisson can be found on Salinas’ report for July 17th. Another former Methodist Home resident Mike Sutton would tell a similar story as Adkisson, this is in Salinas’ July 20th report. So Christine there are a few accounts I think you get the picture.
This is the stuff that just disappeared when Simons took over the case, he wasn’t interested in any drug connection, he was more interested in Deeb’s strange behavior in how he treated young girls like Kabenna, Gayle and Dana. This is what Simons pushed and then the mistaken identity theory and this is what Gayle is talking about. Vic and Simons wanted her to say and she did on the stand that she didn’t know David and had only seen him two times, once at the store and once at the lake. She knew this wasn’t true she knew the interactions she and the other girls from the Home had with David out at the lake prior to July 13th, 1982. And it’s these encounters that haven’t become public, well at least not yet but I’m working on that!
Christine not too long ago I asked you how could it be possible that you never heard David or Deeb talk about the murders when it seemed they were willing to talk about it or allude to it to so many other people. Your response is they didn’t talk around you, I guess they were back playing Ms. Pacman and you were busy doing your job, if this is the case then common sense would dictate there could have been many other things they talked about you weren’t aware of and I would further think you didn’t see everybody they talked to during the day and wouldn’t know anything about these conversations either, not the subject matter nor the participants.
I see you brought up the Juanita White case, Christine each case if different, you should not confuse the facts and issues of one case with the other. This is the common approach of those that don’t have anything more than accusations, allegations and innuendo, they can’t produce evidence, facts nor reasonable or sensible arguments in one case so they try to point to another case, classic bait and switch, very weak. Doesn’t answer any of the questions left with this case.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I am sure there are many thing that David did that I was not aware of. And yet you have put it out there that I must of know about the murders. again I say to you… you cannot have your cake and eat it to. Either it was a blotched murder for hire as Simon’s went after at first or it was a drug deal gone bad that would involve the Brothers and David. But to have two different scenarios play out by the Brothers over the course of these trials is just poor police work and it leaves too may loose ends that do not connect.
I want to see evidence that any other teen beside Gayle and her friends witnessed David and/or the brothers at the lake partying with all the teens and that would prove to me that this is not a planted or made up story.
On any given night that park was a known hangout for teens from central and north Waco. Whereas midway park was a hang out for Midway and Lorena teens. It was nothing to see 60 or more kids partying together at that park on any given evening. And both parks was policed every night by patrol cars because it was a hang out for teens to get drink and smoke weed. Heck they even at one time – gated one entry to speegleville park for this exact reason. Seriously (rolling my eyes here) you don’t think that not one patrol officer would think that David or the brothers would stood out enough to take note or that they would have remembered seeing him/them.
Come on… how many people seen and remembered the white truck with red lettering? That man stood out because he was not the age bracket or the type of person that would be seen at that park during that time frame. Sure lots of people went to the lake old and young yes… but from 8- midnight you would see mostly teens partying. And if David was getting girls drunk it would have been public knowledge…. not just the kids that hung with Gayle… but other high school age kids from all walks of life.
If David frequented the park as you are now stating – there would be 50 or 60 witnesses that Simons/DA would have paraded though the trials. It put him at the scene of the kidnapping/crime before the murder. Just like bank robbers that case out a bank. A rapist that stalks their next victim. A robber waiting at the atm for his next pray.
If we can believe Cifford’s account of the next morning at the lake and him seeing some biker duds and remembered that enough to tell police a few days later.(strange since he was at the lake with a claimed biker dud – David) think about how many people would remember seeing David at the lake for weeks prior.
Again I can only speak to what I saw or heard. And at no time was it ever apparent that David was housing, giving alcohol and weed to kids at the home or frequenting the lake. Nor was there any cash laying around that could not be accounted for in our finances before or after the murders.
Remember I told you about David getting cash for sex with the older woman that had the horse ranch. This went on from probably march until AFTER the murders. That is where he got a lot of his drug money. And from the time I started at Rainbow until I quite he purchased most of his beer at the Rainbow. Unless he was going out with Clifford. Then Clifford bought the beer.
As far as this information coming out during the trials – if Gayle and others would have testified about David’s connections to any kids or partying at the lake this would helped the prosecution -showed the court that he did indeed had connections at the lake and went there often. It would have went to his character and not convoluted the murder for hire or drug deal gone bad (as each of the brothers testified differently in their confessions). It puts him at the lake with these and other kids prior to the murders. “Again showing past actions will dictate future actions”. Or however you want to word it. I think that a older biker dud that looked and acted as rough as David Spence would have stuck out like a NUN around all these teens and the patrolling police cars. So IMO this was not brought out because…… it did not fit into “SIMONS SAYS”. The truth is the truth it is not for Simons or Vic to altar the truth. If what Gayle is saying is truth then why hide the fact that the murder was know to be at the lake with underage girls. IMO this would have put a reason as why they were at the park. One brother said they went there to score dope…. From teens or a drug dealer? And now you are saying you have proof that David supplied dope and beer to these same kids but on this night July 13th David and the brothers drove there to go get dope from them? I am sorry…. but that is not believable. IMO
And yes the cases of the lake Waco murders and Juanita Whites are different… and yet the same. It shows that that Simons and the DA tweaked the facts and evidence to suit their own personal beliefs. Picked and choose what they wanted to instead of leaving no stone unturned to insure they convicted the right people. Again Past actions will dictate future actions. If they did this as it was testified to in the Juanita White case – then it would be logical to assume (assume only until disproved) that they played the same tricks in other cases.
Too many of the jail house snitches recanted after finding out their “promised deal” for lying was not upheld by the DA’s office. (one recant is one too many) What did they have to gain from recanting? Did the courts offer them more time off for good behavior. Did someone give them a pack of cigs to recant?
So when I read these reports that Kenneth got into a altercation regarding 150 dollars those witnesses are going to say it was a biker dud that was strung out on dope or drunk… you know the guy that hung out at Rainbow? Please provide me with a link to this police report. There are many police reports on the one site but I want you to provide me with the correct ones for me to read. I want some kind of proof that this altercation can be tied to someone involved with this case. I need that much from you.
I would have known if had been living with a drug dealer, instead I was living with a broke wanna be biker that was abusive and lived hand to mouth feeding off me and his mother.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine you want proof I’m trying to get it that’s why I ask questions, yes I have sent questions to one of the boys that reported this to the police. I asked Gayle about it but she never replied. We can’t say one way or the other if there was an altercation and if it is connected that’s why you ask questions. And we have to see if it is just a rumor because the variance in the stories would suggest it was a story that was going around and the details got distorted along the way which happens with rumors. But any information needs to be looked at and considered. What makes this story even more interesting is one boy that mentioned the fight said one of the parties involved was in Bobby Brem’s mother’s car and then 34 years later Gayle is asking me if I knew about what David did to Bobby, that might show the two stories are connected, the details just got mixed up a long the way. You get one or two or a few pieces of information then you see if it fits somewhere And that’s not just with this piece of information you do it with all the information you collect along the way. Now Christine I’m not going to get into everything you said, it would be a waste of time but if there is something specific in your comments you would like me to address let me know. I will explain my reason for this the best I can. When you work a case you start from the inside and work outwards, that means you start with the people closest to those involved and work your way out from there. So when you say people would have reported seeing David at the park weeks before, that’s not true and it really doesn’t mean much. There will be many people whom don’t want to get involved in anyway and won’t say anything. Then there could be people would could say they remember seeing David party with the girls but if they were only observing this from afar it doesn’t really tell us much. people party together all the time, so seeing that doesn’t tell us anything, people observing from afar could not tell us much, they probably didn’t know the relationships of David and the girls,didn’t know anything about them. So there really isn’t anything there. And No Vic wouldn’t have paraded 50 to 60 people to the witness stand to say they saw this. You want your case to be tight as possible, the longer you drag out a case the better chance you have of losing the jury. The Jury wants the details in a compact narrative that makes sense. That’s why you try to keep it to the people that are close to those involved, they give your better bang for the buck, they can supply more detail than any number of strangers. And that’s what I’m trying to get from you and it’s the same reason. Some people that might have seen David in the park cannot give me anywhere as much information that you should be able to supply but for some reason you want to be difficult.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Here’s another I know you can answer Truman, Vic or Lane giving the evidence away that was later found to be degraded and giving in the tapes to Dannon. If a trial was needed for Raylene’s murder in the future all the evidence in this case is useless. It was my understanding that unless they dropped the charges of murder then all evidence must be preserved. There is no time limit its murder and it does not matter if the person was convicted of another murder. Is there a court order that dismisses the murder charges for Raylene?
LikeLiked by 2 people
No the charges still remain on the Raylene homicide. And do you understand why the D.A. did this? In case the brothers decided to recant their testimony, which is common for criminals to do. Some of the stuff you need to read is the Appeals courts’ decisions on David’s appeals, you will see what the courts think about recanted testimony. Christine there really wasn’t any physical evidence used in the first trials, it would be the same thing with Raylene’s case, it would be circumstantial using the same testimony. There would be some differences because some things have changed in Texas since then, the big one I see is now witnesses that were hypnotized can testify, so that means Josie could tell her story to a jury now. I would put you on the stand and throw the book at you because you’re a little shady. No being nice this time, Vic tried to be nice with the brothers the first time around and see what that has gotten him!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Regarding :Some people that might have sen David in the park cannot give me anywhere as much information that you should be able to supply but for some reason you want to be difficult
—————————————————————————————————————————–
again you are defecting.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I’m deflecting? Do I need to repeat all the questions you have failed to answer. Or do you just want to go on some rant about full moons, what some people might or might not have seen weeks before the murders. And really whom tried to plant stories in the teen’s heads? Are you trying to say Vic and Simons tried to plant some story in Gayle’s head so she could say the opposite on the stand? Really that makes sense to you? It looks like you keep bringing up these irrelevant nonsensical things so we don’t get back to more pertinent issues. Can we get back to the last week you lived with David, like the fight which caused you to leave, your suicide attempt, whom and when did you see the night of the murders?
LikeLiked by 2 people
RE:The Jury wants the details in a compact narrative that makes sense.
————————————————————–
Bullshit… the jury wants the most detailed factual account. Someone’s life is in their hands. I would hope they took it seriously. Just because it makes sense based on a compact narrative does not make it truth. That’s like playing name that tune… or reading a review of a book and saying you read the whole thing.
LikeLike
Sister ask any attorney that deals with capital cases, they want their case to move as fast as possible, use the fewest number of witnesses as you possibly can. don’t let the jury start to think you are the reason they are stuck in that court room away from their own lives, families or whatever. During an over extended explanation jurors will lose focus and forget details. Avoid this with a quick comprehensive presentation.
LikeLike
So Christine I would like to stick to what was going on in your life and around you which you would be privy to.I know there are things you don’t remember and don’t want to remember but you are not the only one, Gayle has told me she doesn’t remember some things and apparently she doesn’t want to remember because she told me to stop asking her about stuff she couldn’t remember because she wasn’t going to and apparently Lisa Kader doesn’t want to remember what happened back then. It’s seems David had that effect on a lot of people back then, I find that very telling, I just don’t know what. It’s in these repressed memories where I believe we will find the truth. But as it is now the accounts are very different. Look at the different version you and Gayle have about her dealings with Deeb. Christine you make it sound like Gayle arranged and planned with Deeb about getting the apartment. Here is what Gayle said when I asked her about this,”,I promised nothing to Deeb in exchange for that apt”.Her account is Deeb just offered her the apartment and she took it. Now whom am suppose to believe? Clearly some one’s account is not accurate. And I’m not leaning one way or the other, I just wondering if you knew about whatever arrangement was made maybe there is some one else that would have similar information and then that person might have other information about what was going on that would be useful. Christine would you know of another person that would have this information? I would guess Gayle’s friends would stick with her account.
It’s the same thing with Clifford, Christine your account of David’s and Clifford’s friendship conflicts with what Clifford has stated, I believe Clifford is hiding something, I’m just not sure what. You’ve haven’t been totally clear on this either. Is there some one out there that could support your account?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine do you seriously believe I’m insulting you? Here is my problem with some of your accounts they conflict with what other people have said and from personally dealing with you I have seen you go back and forth on things, so your not too sure, I feel that’s a fair assessment. Christine you keep saying you might have two nights mixed up or muddled together, all I’m saying is if you have two nights muddled up you could have any number of nights during that period all mixed up together. For some reason you have a hard time with that. And Christine you do bend things I say, I have never said Deeb was a drug dealer, he gave drugs to a limited number of people. What I’m trying to say, again which you are having a hard time understanding is he would almost do anything for Gayle, so it’s possible and I would say it looks like she took advantage of that. How far would she go? Would she have done something that benefited one of her friends like Kenneth at the cost of Deeb? I say yes. Deeb was gullible he liked spending his money to show off, maybe you can’t see it but he was the perfect target for such a scam. You point out his visits to Fort Fisher, the visits in themselves don’t tell us much, the telling fact about the visits is the argument that happened between Gayle, Jill and Deeb about Kenneth Franks and this was well before whatever happened at the apartment. You don’t see the significance in this? An incident that the supervisor remembered months later and brought it up without being asked. Remind you it doesn’t look like Baier was even aware Gayle worked at Fort Fisher until this conversation. He went there to get information on Jill and in inquiring about Jill the supervisor brought up the fact that Gayle worked there also and during both girl’s time there this incident occurred. My question to you was before the apartment problem were you aware of a problem that Deeb had with Kenneth, a problem big enough that we Deeb would show up to Gayle’s job and cause a scene. Honestly I can’t see it being because Kenneth called him a name or something along those lines.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Getting into the Melendez brother confessions and testimony and what information Truman Simons might or might not have fed them or wanted them to say, I’ve been addressing all my messages to Christine lately and this is for her as well but also for everyone that continues to wonder and question this. We have to remember the original officers that worked the case believe it was drug related that’s the angle they were trying to work. If you talked to Salinas, Nicoletti, Fortune or Horton today they will tell you this. They just had received so much information regarding Kenneth’s activity with drugs it couldn’t be ignored. I believe they were right, what mistake I feel they made was they went after the wrong person, Tab Harper, which they finally realized then gave up. If these stories about Kenneth were true and they had something to do with his murder, I would point to one interview that should have told them if it was drug related it wasn’t Tab Harper. That interview would be the first interview with Gayle Kelly. She reported Kenneth was planning to come into some money on a deal, Kenneth didn’t give her the name of the person Kenneth was going to make the deal with but he told Gayle she knew whom this person was. So Gayle knew the person but didn’t know Kenneth was dealing with him, that would discount Tab Harper, Gayle was aware of Kenneth dealing with Tab, she stated Kenneth said Tab always had the good stuff, so he couldn’t have been the new dealer she wasn’t aware of. But Salinas and Nicoletti to a lesser degree kept on Tab Harper that ended up going nowhere. I feel they were on the right path but looking in the wrong direction.
Then Simons and Baier take over the case, Simons doesn’t believe in the drug connection so all that information just fades from the investigation. Now I believe Simons had the right people but by dismissing the drug angle never found the true story. Then the Melendez brothers come along with their stories, multiple stories and lies. Ok I can see Simons and Vic bending some details. But would Simons get the Melendez brothers to concoct a story where they say it was drug related? The officer that has been trying to prove it wasn’t drug related is now going to get his witnesses to say it was drug related. What are people smoking? I must be smoking the wrong thing because that definitely doesn’t make any sense to me. So if the Melendez brothers came up with this on their own could it be true and if it was true why would they give this detail when they were lying about so many other things?
The Melendez brothers lied in both their confessions and testimony, that can’t be debated. We shouldn’t forget Gilbert was first offered immunity to testify, when the D.A. realized he was lying he removed that offer. But Gilbert was given another chance, which the D.A. didn’t have to do and people want to say Gilbert was railroaded, Vic Feazell did all he could to save Gilbert’s life but Gilbert wanted to play hard head con games. So everyone knew the brothers were lying. The problem becomes trying to cull the truth from the lies but there is probably some truth mixed up with all the lies. One thing I think could be true and it’s not so much because I believe anything Anthony says but because if you look at a map of the area and you were in Speegleville Park there is a pretty good chance that you had to cross a bridge to get back into Waco, so his statement that he threw stuff out of the truck while they were crossing a bridge could be true. But in typical con fashion he doesn’t say what bridge, see that’s how one acts like they are cooperating but in reality are giving away very little.
So what about Gilbert’s confession and/or testimony that David told him they were going to kill the kids because they burned Deeb over a drug deal. Could this be true? I know most of us has probably heard of one rape case or another where the rapist makes remarks about how the victim was dressed or how she acted. O.J., just was granted parole last week, but his reasoning for that crime that guy stole my stuff I was just getting it back. This is called justification, criminals do this to try to minimize or explain their actions. To be criminally responsible for your action you have to understand that your actions are outside the norms of society an criminally insane person would not understand this. So a criminal knows his actions aren’t accepted but even realizes some of his actions can been worse than others/ For instance in this case if David and the Melendez brother just got up with the kids and started partying with them and then the guys couldn’t control their violent urges and just started rapping and stabbing the kids, anyone including the killers would realize they would never see the light of day again, and rightfully so, no matter your stance on the death penalty there’s no way anybody would want these monsters back on the street The criminals answer to this justification. Hey I did this because the victims did that. We see this in Gilbert’s story he believe’s David is planning to kill these kids because they ripped off Deeb. Now I can’t say this is true but I can see it as possible, I would say this was more likely than Simons feeding him this story, again Simons was trying to prove the drug angle and the officers pushing that were wrong, he wouldn’t have added fuel to that fire to support his enemies claims.
Back when Gayle Kelly was still talking to me and she had brought up that she knew David much more than she testified to and Vic Feazell knew this I asked her how could this be possible. It just didn’t add up to me, why not just tell the truth why create this false narrative. She replied,” .Vic frizzell was never in it for the truth, but for the headlines,telling me we could use the truth if it hurt his case”, Interesting to say the least but what can we make of that statement? Truman Simons was the one that started the whole mistaken identity thing and according to Vic’s own tapes he wasn’t sold on Truman’s investigation, his questionable methods or his theory. When did and why did Vic change his mind. As late as September 1983, when Vic is having the jailbirds write their new statements, the focus still looks to be on Kenneth being the target, you do start to see mention that Jill looked like Gayle but you can see this is just being added on like an after thought, yes that is something Simons fed or told the jailbirds to say. So when did Vic decide to go with this argument? I think it could have been when he saw the Melendez brothers’ first confessions. If the brothers believed they were killing the kids that ripped off Deeb, that would have been Kenneth and Gayle not Jill. The brothers’ belief they were killing the girl that ripped off Deeb would have been mistake, they had the wrong girl that is a case of mistaken identity. Fezell’s comment to me is saying we have a back up plan if we get caught on your lies, we can still prove mistaken identity, the Melendez brothers’ story.
Again I don’t know if this is true but it has crossed my mind obviously. Bring on the criticism, I know I plan to hear some craziness from Christine..
LikeLiked by 2 people
Christine was it past your bedtime or did your meds kick in you just disappeared. Anyway Christine, so I think it’s safe to say you are not too sure what went on at the store, I can buy that, especially when it looks like you couldn’t keep track of what was going on in your own place. Earlier I mentioned your trip to the park with David and the Melendez brothers and if you could recall if it was before or after the murders. I will tell you my thinking, I know you are just going to disagree even though you can’t remember. First I look at the time span, you would have had more chances to go to the park before the murders July 3rd until the 12th compared to July 14th until the 20, or 21st, I think you might want to add that extra day when you try to correct your story. Christine you have said many times David didn’t come home many nights during that time, I would say that probably means you don’t know what he was doing those nights. So after the murders we only have a week or eight days, we know where he was a number of those nights. Friday the 16th and Saturday the 17th he stayed at Mrs. Miles, so you couldn’t have gone to the park with David those days. Sunday July 18th was his birthday I know he was still at Mrs. Miles in the morning she fixed David a birthday breakfast. I can’t remember if he stayed that night I will have to look back at the testimony. Monday was the 19th the day you say you and David got into a fight and you left, so you didn’t go to the park with him then. That doesn’t leave to many nights and we still have to fit in your suicide attempt and the parole officer’s visit. Christine is it possible that David spending that weekend and his birthday with Mrs. Miles and her daughters was the reason you attempted suicide? We know you didn’t care for Mrs. Miles and her daughters, Linda and Weida because you believe David was having an affair with one of the daughters. Mrs. Miles had a third daughter but she didn’t live at the house at that time. Maybe that was your breaking point when you felt at that time he would rather spend his time with them rather than you Either way none of those days look possible as the day you went to the park, That leaves two days Wednesday July 14th and Thursday July 15th. Can you add any significance to either of these days. We know you opened the store at 7:00 a.m. on the 14th and I know there was some question about when you worked later that day but it does seem you also worked that evening. That would probably remove that day as a possibility. That leaves us one day Thursday July 15, Christine is there anyway you can recall this day one way or the other. See Christine how that works, you take the information you have then you put it together then you try to get new information that fills in the holes and in doing so you need to ask questions. Elementary Watson. Please try to focus and stay on subject.
LikeLiked by 2 people
re Doris Tucker incident>>>> you say ‘I state one thing but she testified to something different.’ I never denied that the argument happened. Just not in the context she is stating or in month she stated it happened. I give you the context of the argument. And you choose to make statements that “I state everyone else is wrong”? Because I dare to bring incite as to “SIMONS SAYS” stories?
I recall asking deeb for 10 dollars to help buy a headlight for a car to pass inspection. An advance on my paycheck. Again that would have been in July I was only in Waco for a few days in August. I again reiterate two glaring things: ONE) I was his employee not a customer. her statement that Deeb said “I don’t want your business anymore” does not ring true and names like Fucking bitch are not statements that Deeb said. He did not cuss. From August on I had no contact with Deeb. I did not go into rainbow or talk to anyone of them after I returned in September. The DA admitted that there was no written statement and they could not even pull a report from the crimestoppers? With the date? give me a break!
I think this happened in July or at the least before August 18th not September. I was in Ft. Worth from late August until the day Simons summoned me. So again tell me how I could have talking about Bailing david out or money he owed David when I had no knowledge of what happened at that time and David was not in jail?
DA had access to the Crimestopper report with the date it was filed. And it would have been entered as evidence to VET the witness and to show the date. Instead they choose to say sometime in Sept – but show no documents to back her timeline. She stated she gave a written statement and yet Butler clearly states says “there was no written statement by this witness”. He did not state they did not bring the statement with them – he states THERE IS NO WRITTEN STATEMENT. The DA wanted it to be in Sept after David was arrested so they conveniently chose to have her say it was maybe in September – after David was arrested for the murders?
please tell me when David was Arrested for the Murders? When was Deeb arrested?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Chirstine, there are other accounts of there not being reports when people called crime stoppers, Deanna Storts first call for one. Also there is no report of when Gene Deal first called Salinas or any of the other times he called and tried to talk to him. It seems the police had a little problem with keeping up with their reports. Look at your Grand Jury Testimony you are saying this took place in September. Deeb was originally arrested on Monday September 13th. Deeb was re-arrested and David at the same time after the Grand Jury passed down the indictments in Late 1983. If you are asking when David was arrested for the Pack incident that was Thursday September 9th.
LikeLiked by 2 people
What I would not give to sit down and Talk to Vic’s ex wife. What I would not give to listen to the tapes that Vic gave Dannon.
LikeLike
Christine was it past your bedtime or did your meds kick in you just disappeared……………….
wow! again referencing that I am on drugs. I told you point blank I will not tolerate this. Thank you for your time over the last few months. Be good to yourselves.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I see you didn’t stay on the subject matter or even try to address it. Well you know I will in your absence.
LikeLike
Christine you have stated you only saw the Melendez brothers one time after they had their falling out with David back in November of ’81 but you can not recall the date. You testified that you went to Speegleville Park with David and the Melendez brothers one time. Ok, that would seem that is the one time you saw the brothers. Recently you have told me you think you remembered seeing the brothers at your apartment with Clifford Oliver the night of the murders. To be fair you have stated you’re not sure on this, you might have nights mixed up. We know you worked the night of July 13th, well other than Kareem and Deeb;s defense lawyers. But you are not sure if you worked that morning or before you started the close shift, which I think you have stated was 6 p.m. or maybe 5:00 p.m.
After the police discovered the bodies at Speegleville Park they talked to a few people that had been at the park that day (July 13), there were only two over night passes issued for that night, one of those passes was given to the Hadleys. Mrs. Barbara Hadley called in and talked to Saiinas on July 19th, this is in his report of July 20th. She states between 2;00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. on the 13th she saw 2 white males in a white pick up, 69 to 73 model, around Sleegleville area 2. She didn’t get a license plate number but thought maybe this truck had something to do with the murders, very interesting to say the least especially considering how the case would come together later. Christine the obvious question is; could have sometime on July 13th been the day you were with David and the brothers at Speegleville Park? Maybe before you went to work you went to the park, not saying that you knew anything about the murders just that that could be the day? Of coarse you realize the significance of this answer and the flood of questions to follow, so before you answer I want to get into a few things, your responses up to now have been you don’t remember the day you went to the park with the brothers, what day you saw them and you can’t recall what you did before you worked the night of July 13.
Christine you know you still have mental scars due to the time you spent with David and the litany of abuses you suffered. It’s not like the day you left David the next day everything was fine and forgotten, things stuck with you and still do. I understand this, though you may feel I make light of this or are insensitive with all my intrusive questions. I assure you that’s not the case, honestly I have great sympathy for you, all you went through and suffered then and still suffer through today. But in the months we have talked I have noticed a prevalence in your responses. Many things I ask you about your response is you can’t remember but then if I put some information together and suggest a possibility you become more defensive and deny even the possibility of such scenarios even though you can’t remember. Now I’m not trying to say your are trying to be deceitful or you intend to do this, I think you can’t control this reaction, it your subconscious. I’m not a psychiatrist but you told me you went through years of therapy so I’m sure talking about repressing memories would have been part of this or trying to determine the depth of your consciousness, that means trying to come to some realization of what you can control and that which you couldn’t. You put it as pushing things out of your mind but it’s not pushing out it is repressing harmful memories. Your mind is protecting you from terrible memories and the feelings these memories can cause. I can see this in some of your responses and a few days ago you posted about some of the things you still deal with today.
I want to put this so you will understand and the best way to do this is use things you have pointed out like having to sleep close to exits, not liking to sit in the passenger’s seat of a vehicle, wanting to be in control, Now all this things you are conscious of, you are aware of these quirks and you probably understand why you have them. But what you can’t control are the feelings associated with these quirks, that would be the subconscious. It’s not like one day you say well I want to sleep on the other side of the bed tonight, well I just you could say it but your subconscious would be like hey you better get on the right side of the bed or those bad feelings will resurface and you will be uncomfortable so you will roll over and get back on your side of the bed, you can’t control that. You are aware of those feelings but you can’t control them, understandable. Actually we all have this in one way or the other, I don’t like people standing behind me when I eat, I get very uncomfortable, I don’t no why, I can’t control it, it’s just there. In your case it’s more acute, more severe because of the cause. The cause being applied over a considerable amount of time that creates this condition, the cause may be removed but the conditioning still remains and probably will never completely go away.
Now part of this conditioning in victim’s guilt, I know this was brought up a little during your appearance in front of the Grand Jury, Vic Feazell asking you about your family history dealing with abuse. I don’t want to get too far into this, not like I’m getting too far into anything else. Just pointing out that you are aware of this and I know I’ve hit on it with you before, you know about how people, like me, will ask why did you stay or why didn’t you leave many months before you did. No one needs to ask you that, you deal with that all on your own and the feelings that come with it. My point is that guilt could go beyond the feelings about your relationship with David, it could also include guilt about things that went on around you during this time. And there was a lot going on in your life and around you at the time; the abuse, breaking up and leaving your first real boyfriend, trying to take your life, people you were associated with being killed. It would have been a lot for any one’s mind to deal with. The guilt would be very unpleasant.
Christine, pushing out, blocking out or repressing memories that’s the subconscious mind protecting you from awful feelings and memories including guilt that could be harmful to your well being, remember it’s this same feelings and memories that played a part in you attempting suicide. That repressed guilt also includes the feelings you might endure if you now open up and share these memories and the responses you could get. I know we talked about this before how if you now say things that you didn’t say back then, there will be people that will ask why didn’t you say this stuff back then, that could cause more guilt. As I have told you before I’m not trying to cause you any harm, I’m not saying you were involved in the murders in any way. I’m not trying to say you are a bad person or you have any culpability due to your silence. I don’t think any one would. I think people would understand it was out of your control your mind was shutting you down for your own well being, people might not like it or be happy with it but will understand. Just like now your mind is probably telling you, you know that guy Brian asking you all those questions don’t answer his questions, you don’t want to go there, you don’t even want to consider the possibilities he presents, you don’t want to open up those memories. Christine you know I’m going to keep asking until the truth comes to light.
So back to my original question could July 13th, before the murders, been the day you went to the park with David and the Melendez brothers. Christine I know we can’t get all the answers from you and don’t expect to but you can see how important this would be, this would help prove so much; that David and the Melendez brothers were together that day, Anthony was in Waco, Gilbert’s truck was running and their appearance in that park earlier in the day could point towards they might have been planning what they were going to do later. Again I’m not trying to say you were aware of anything, you said they didn’t talk around you, I believe you, so on that day you wouldn’t have known anything. Now on the days immediately afterwards that’s a little different and again not saying any one came to one and gave you the details of what they had done. But I can see a scenario where you started putting things together. Deeb tells you about Kenneth being killed before the murders were reported on the 14th. The next day, July 15th, when you see the story of the murders in the paper, I can see you making a remark to David like, ” Isn’t that strange we were in Speegleville Park earlier that day” and David going off on you and telling you to shut up and to keep quiet. With that you started thinking about things, maybe it was these things that created in your mind the feeling to end things one way or another.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Well finally I think I have a solid lead on Clifford Oliver!!!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Mrs. Thompson do you think you would recognize Clifford Oliver from the trials. I down loaded a picture from facebook, I know the picture was probably taken many years after, if not decades after the trials but does that person look familiar to you?
LikeLike
No picture attached.
LikeLike
Yeah I couldn’t figure that out!!! Can you go to the media page?
LikeLike
What conclusive and indisputable evidence is there that only one vehicle was used to move the bodies? This was part of the Melendez brothers’ story, a story I think most people would agree was filled with countless inconsistencies at least. Another lie? This is the problem when you try to discern truth from a story full of lies, it’s nearly impossible.
When we look at some of the characters that got together sometime the night of the murders, the possibility of using more than one vehicle looks reasonable. Then we have the cut fence at Speegleville Park, I know the head ranger or whatever his title was stated he checked the fences daily maybe he just over looked or missed this. The fence in question was only two strands of barbed wire and couldn’t the perpetrators fixed the cut wires to look like they hadn’t been cut then a couple days later their fix comes apart. Rather easy to do, you cut the wires at the front of the post, then to replace the wire you tap the barbs of the wire into the inside of the post, would look like the the fence isn’t cut but in time the embedded barbs could fall out. And remember the one thing that was missing from Clifford Oliver’s vandalized car, his tools and tool box,maybe wire cutters and a hammer that could be used to tap the wire back in place.
Anyway when the officers checked out this area they found evidence that trucks and/or vehicles had run through that area, coincidence or something more?
LikeLiked by 2 people
Yesterday I was asked why I don’t call for the testing of the DNA evidence, that would be another example of the truth being bent. I have always been for the testing for all the evidence that was collected during the investigation, We shouldn’t pick and choose what evidence we want tested or try to limit what is tested, doing so would only give us a partial glance of the whole picture, isn’t that what we have now. Here are some of the questions and evidence that was collected that I have never seen answered nor tested.
Whom was responsible for vandalizing Clifford Oliver’s car and when was the car vandalized?
Whom threw Jill Montgomery’s check stubs on the ground at Koehne Park and when?
Whom broke into Patti Deis’ apartment twice and why?
Did the police take samples from the blood that was left at the apartment and has that blood
been tested?
Did the police get hand writing samples to compare with the note that was left?
Are the items that were collected from under the bridge at Veterans Park still around and were
they ever tested for DNA?
Fingerprints were lifted from these items, were they ever checked or compared to other prints?
This is just a few questions, I have many more and the answers to these few questions will definitely lead us to more questions.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Ever since I started looking into this case there has been one person I really have a lot of questions for; Clifford Oliver and he’s been very hard to find, there are so many Olivers in central Texas but finally I have been able to track him down. To make sure he was the Clifford Oliver I wanted I asked was he the Clifford Oliver that lived in Waco in 1982 and was friends with David Spence, his response was : “Yep , though not a bright period in my life so to speak”. Of coarse more questions followed, I hope Mr. Oliver will open up. I have so many questions for him and I hope others will ask what questions they may have. I think we will see a different story emerge than the story we have been told.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I guess I should share the Clifford Oliver story as it has been told to now because there is very little out there about this, his name and those of the people that were with him the night of July 13 and morning of July 14 have been pretty much swept under the rug. Even in the book “Careless Whispers” this is only mentioned in a couple lines and nom de guerre are used, so it gets overlooked and I have never seen it mentioned in any of the countless articles that have been written about the case.
Clifford Oliver was having financial and marital problems at the time, during the evening of July 13th Clifford and his wife Barbara got into a heated argument and Clifford took off. He would go to Pinocchio’s Pool Hall, a regular hang out for many of the names connected to this case. While there he ran into his friend Cal Frazier and high schoolers Todd Childers and John Arnett. These four individuals decided to leave the pool hall and go drink beer. Clifford had his car a Silver Pontiac and Todd had his green Dodge truck, the guys would take both vehicles to Midway Park, one of the handful of parks on the lake. After hanging out and drinking beer for about a hour or a hour and a half, they decided to take a drive, they were probably running low on beer by this point. It is decided to leave Clifford’s car at Midway and the guys piled into Todd’s truck.
They would make their way to Koehne Park, they would do a drive through. While there they ran into some guys, later identified as Mexicans, hanging around a truck, Clifford and his friends traded their last beer or last couple beers with these guys for a joint. Trading their last beers, they needed to go get more beer but now it was after midnight, the last call for purchasing carry out alcohol. The guys tried a number of stores before they finally went to a store where they knew the clerk would sell them beer after hours. Resupplied, now they decide they want to stop riding around and want to find some place to party.
First they try Cal Frazier’s girlfriend but she’s not home. This is when Clifford comes up with going to David Spence’s. They try David’s mother’s house but are informed by David’s brother Steve that David has moved to the Northwood apartments. Between 1:30 a.m. and 2:00 a.m. Clifford Oliver knocks on David’s door, apparently waking up a sleeping Spence. David tells Clifford he has been out at the lake partying. There is some question as to rather Spence said he was out at the lake with Anthony Melendez but this is how Anthony’s name is brought into the mix. David let’s the guys in and they stay up all night drinking beer and shooting up crank until David needs to take his girlfriend Christine Juhl to work, she has to open the store at 7:00 a.m.. Before leaving the apartment David makes a call from a pay phone at the apartment complex, trying to arrange a crank buy in Fort Worth, where the guys plan to go after they drop off Christine at work and David drops his car off at a mechanic. So David is driving Christine in his car and Todd, with Clifford, Cal and John, is following in his truck. While at the store David gets more beer and cigarettes, crediting the items on Christine’s time card.
Now, with all five guys in Todd’s truck, they return to Midway Park to retrieve Clifford’s car only to find it’s not there. They decide to go to Todd’s house so Clifford can call the police. Todd still being a teenager didn’t want his parents to know what he had been doing all night and whom he was with dropped off the older David and Cal. Todd, Clifford and John proceeded to Todd’s house, where Clifford calls the police and is told his car was vandalized and as been impounded. David and Cal are picked up by the others and together they go get Clifford’s car, he would write a bad check to get his car released and have to return to rectify this a couple days later.
At this point the younger boys decide it’s time for them to go home and Cal disappears somewhere along the line. Clifford and David return to Koehne Park and drink a couple beers. They run into a girl and go hang out at her place of employment for some time during which time David sets up a date with this girl for later that day. With that Clifford and David decide to go home and get cleaned up so they could go out later but Clifford went home and fell asleep and didn’t get back up with David. Clifford would testify he saw David only one time after this. This was in late July before Clifford headed to California in early August. Clifford testified that he and his girlfriend Josie Scionti stopped by but didn’t stay long because David was acting strange, Christine Juhl had left David by this time, Clifford would state Christine was not there and he would recall that David kept saying something like Clifford needed to learn the way of Muhammad.
At the end of July Clifford tried to have his car dismantled by a couple friends and reported the car stolen, when the police found the car a couple days later Clifford took off to California. On October 1st he went into the Navy he wouldn’t return to Waco until after his basic training was completed which was in December 1982. While he was in Waco Clifford would get up with former girlfriend Josie, it would be this encounter that made Josie call the crime stoppers hotline and told them she had information about the Lake Murders, she knew where the murders occurred and how the killers were able to drive into the woods without anybody at Koehne Park noticing. This is how it was determined where the murders took place. When the Melendez brothers were asked to show where the murders happened they came with in feet of the place Josie had shown. I guess it can be argued Truman Simons pointed it out to the brothers before they picked the spot but I will leave that for others to dispute.
Clifford Oliver and Todd Childers would both testify during David’s first trial and they told pretty much the same story, There were a few differences but nothing really ground braking, just some details were off a little which one would expect due to the time that had passed by the time of the trials and they were both intoxicated at the time of the events they were recalling. One could question how much coaching they received while being prepped for court and were there things distorted or left out. Clifford also testified during the Grand Jury and during this proceeding he was asked about the information Josie had supplied. According to Josie, Harold Windham and Diana Windham, Josie’s sister, they got up with Clifford when he returned to Waco in December and they went out to the lake to party. While there Clifford showed them where the murders occurred and took them down the road that was used to drive into the woods. Then they went to Speegleville and Clifford showed them where the bodies had been dumped. Clifford told this group that David Spence had shown him this. There is some question whether Clifford had said something to Josie about the murders that summer before he went to California, something along the line he had gotten sick the night of the murders by something he had seen. Clifford Oliver would deny all this during the Grand Jury, his reasoning why his girlfriend would be saying this stuff was that they were trying to get the reward money. That would be the last this story and information would ever be mentioned, it just disappeared or was swept under the rug. Well until now.
LikeLiked by 2 people
What happens when the DNA evidence doesn’t prove anything? Do we have the answers we are looking for? Has any DNA evidence in this case proved anything to this point? Hey I believe all DNA collected and items that were collected should be tested, I would think most people would feel this way. I understand why the State or former prosecutor doesn’t speak up, he doesn’t have to, his job was to prosecute a case and get convictions, he did that, he’s under no obligation to do more.
Now we are talking about DNA evidence that was collected 35 years ago and in particular fingernail clippings. I would like to share a study conducted on DNA evidence found on fingernail clippings. If you are interested in reading the full article it can be found in the March 2012, Forensic Science International: Genetics Journal :Prevalence and persistence of foreign DNA beneath fingernails.
– Fingernail scrapings and clippings are routinely examined for the presence of foreign DNA profiles in forensic casework where the case history suggests their evidentiary relevance. In order to better understand the significance of these findings, casework results from the Centre of Forensic Sciences (CFS) were analyzed and several controlled studies were conducted. In an analysis of casework data (n = 265), 33% of fingernail samples contained a foreign source of DNA, 63% of which were detected at 5 or more STR loci. In a sampling of fingernails from the general population (n = 178), 19% contained a foreign source of DNA, 35% of which were detected at 5 or more STR loci. In a study involving deliberate scratching of another individual (n = 30), 33% of individuals had a foreign DNA profile beneath their fingernails from which the person they scratched could not be excluded as the source; however when sampling occurred ∼6 h after the scratching event, only 7% retained the foreign DNA.
This research suggests the incidence of foreign DNA profiles beneath fingernails in the general population is low but, when present, the majority is of limited significance and tends not to persist for an extensive period of time. These data are provided to assist the forensic analyst when providing his or her opinion as to the relevance of foreign DNA present under fingernails. –
For those that missed it, I know there are some people out there that don’t like facts, ONLY 7% OF FINGER NAIL CLIPPINGS RETAINED FOREIGN DNA 6 HOURS AFTER THE SCRATCHING EVENT!!! And I would point out this was in a controlled environment where they were conducting a scientific study. Are we suppose to think that the odds of finding any foreign DNA improve over time? I would also like to point out although there wasn’t DNA evidence in 1982, skin under finger nails is something a M.E. can easily determine during the autopsy, something the M.E. in this case did not do. Yes she could have missed it, as she did the bite marks, or it could have been mixed with other foreign objects e.g. dirt, fibers, other organic matter etc. So yes test all DNA evidence but knowing the history of how the DNA evidence has been handled in this case and the problems that have resulted I think there is a very good chance, I would put it at least 90%, like all the other DNA evidence connected to this case that has been test the results will be inconclusive. What then?
When you know there are conflicting stories out there, you know some one is not telling the truth. It could just be innocent mistaken recollection or it could be because they have something to hide. How can we determine this if we don’t ask questions and yes some of those questions will be intrusive and difficult to answer, I’m not here to make friends, I’m looking for the truth while others wait around for miracles or hoping a politically active judge will side with them or looking for a technicality to overturn the verdicts, that’s not looking for the truth.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Further response from Clifford Oliver:
Pretty sure they got the right guys. But I know there’s always been controversy. I was with a couple of guys I had met playing foosball that night. Believe one was named Todd. Been so long. As far as Jose, there was a reward being offered and just the fact that I had mentioned knowing David was incentive enough. She said I had told her and other family members many things that just weren’t true. That’s why I was even under suspicion as an accomplice, until they found out about the Melendez brothers.
I’m not getting much. More questions from others?
LikeLiked by 3 people
Is this the only comment from C. OLIVER? Can’t find others.
LikeLike
Mrs. Thompson the only other comment Clifford has made was to confirm he was whom I was looking for. this was it; “Yep , though not a bright period in my life so to speak”. So I haven’t asked him too much so far so that last post about him was really the first reply to any of my questions. I told him he might want to check out the site and warned him that he is one of my favorite targets. Look how I angered Christine Juhl, do you think I’m going to do much better with Clifford Oliver? But I’ve sent him more questions.
LikeLiked by 2 people
This site is about questions and searching for answers. You have questions for him that might answer some of the controversy about the night and early morning hours of July 13th and 14th. Was he at the apartment during this time; etc. Is he aware of Josie’s whereabouts at the present time, ?
LikeLiked by 3 people
I will ask him about Josie but I have tried to talk to her and her sister and have gotten nowhere. But Clifford’s answer about her story when I asked him was the same he gave to the Grand Jury; Josie made up the story for the reward money. I just explained to him this morning my feelings, especially about how she knew the road taken, which still stands out foremost in my mind.
LikeLiked by 2 people
mmaaix I want to clear up the response I made Friday morning, get the right names in the right places and put things in proper context. Early on in the investigation Danny Sizemore became a person of interest or a suspect. Thursday morning July 15 at approximately 9:20 a.m. Waco P.D. received a call from an unknown female caller, the caller stated Sizemore had bought dope from victim Kenneth Franks and had said he had killed people before. This caller was probably Donna Olsen. A few days later, July 19, the police got a call from Dana Sizemore the older sister of Danny, she reported she had gotten a call the day before from Donna Oslen. Donna wanted to talk to Danny about the murders, Dana informed Donna he wasn’t there and Donna started talking to Dana about Mr. Franks. Dana was calling in to let the police know they needed to check this girl out but she didn’t have a number where Donna Olsen could be reached. Detective Salinas tracked Donna down the next day, July 20, at her work. Although the number of the unknown female caller is not in the report, I wpuld guess this is how Salinas tracked her down. Salinas talked to Donna that day and Officer Nicoletti talked to her the next day. Donna gave them some information about the strange behavior of Mr. Franks and some of the things he had said. On July 23rd Salinas recontacted Kenneth Adkisson, a former resident at the Methodist Home that had given information to police earlier. Salinas asked Adkisson if he knew Danny Sizemore, Adkisson said he did but he hadn’t seen him in a while but he gave the name of another girl that lived at the Methodist Home that would know more about Sizemore, this would be Christine Hart.
On July 26th Sargent Holly Holstein interviewed Christine Hart. Ms. Hart had a pretty crazy story to tell, like how Sizemore, Kenneth Franks and some of their friends, including Danny McSpadden and Danny McGinnis, would drink and get high and blindfold a subject give him a gun and the others would hide. When the subject heard a sound he would shoot in that direction. Don’t know if any of this was true but Christine said she hadn’t seen Sizemore in two or three weeks and she thought when Sizemore was in town he stayed with Danny McSpadden which was true. Sizemore had stayed with McSpadden at the Northwood apartments back in June and this is probably how Donna Olsen became acquainted with Sizemore because she also lived at the Northwood apartments. That looks like that would have been the end of that, by then Waco P.D. had better suspects, mainly Terry “Tab” Harper but as the investigators were finding that the Tab Harper story was nothing more than rumors build on a lie, they received a call from one Weldon Bounds on August 6th. Mr. Bounds stated he had heard the police were looking for Sizemore and Bounds said Sizmore’s had an Uncle that was connected to the mafia and if the police wanted to find Sizemore they needed to talk to his ex-girlfriend. This ex-girlfriend was Joy Thrasher and she stayed with her sister at the Northwood Apartments. Bounds would call again on August 10th apparently Joy had seen or talked to Sizemore a couple weeks before and had given Mr. Bounds the impression that Sizemore was being evasive when asked questions about the murders. Joy had aslo stated Danny’s parents would know where he was.. With this information Salinas looked in Sizemore’s past and found he had been dismissed from the service either in April or May of 82. Bounds” son David told Salinas that the talk going around was Danny was responsible for the murders and David believed Danny was capable of committing these murders.
On August 11th, Robert Watts name would come up for the first time when Salinas interviewed Drury Singleton, while Singleton was being interviewed about the Beth Bramlett murder he mentioned he might have information about the Lake Waco Murders. He stated he had picked up a hitch hiker named Robert Watts on either July 12th or July 15th on highway 84 pass Bellmead and that this Watts had told him about the murders and how he had spent the night at Fort Fisher and the night before Drury had picked up Watts, Watts said a orange car similar to the car that the victims had been in stopped to ask him if he wanted a ride and if he had gone with them he would be dead now. Salinas interviewed Robert Watts next. Watts said he had left Belton on Saturday July 10th and it took him two days to get to Waco and that Drury had picked him up on Monday morning July 12th, that would have been before the murders occurred but then Watts said he was in Waco when the murders happened and that’s how he knew about them. Watts story didn’t match what Singleton had said and he couldn’t have been in Waco at the time of the murders to know about them if Drury had picked him up on Monday before the murders and taken him to Axtell where Watts stayed with Singleton. A lie detector was planned for Watts, I don’t know what became of that.
Salinas made contact with Dana Sizemore again on August 19 by then Dana had talked to her brother, he was in Alabama and during their conversation Danny had asked Dana what weapon had been used to kill Beth Bramlett and he knew a subject that hated both Kenneth Franks and Beth Bramlett, that would be Danny McSpadden. With that Salinas decided it was time to track down some of the names Christine Hart had given them. Salinas got up with McSpadden later that day.
Danny McSpadden told Salinas that he wasn’t really good friends with Kenneth Franks, Kenneth had stayed at his apartment with Sizemore a couple nights back in June. Franks had stated he couldn’t return home but McSpadden did not know why. McSpadden and Sizemore had gone to the Franks apartment one time, while there Mr. Franks came on to them and McSpadden never wanted to go back. The reason McSpadden kicked Kenneth out was because Kenneth was smoking weed in his apartment, something McSpadden did not allow. When Salinas asked McSpadden about the murder of Beth Bramlet, he stated he heard Beth had been at a party and that he had not been at the party. He had dated Beth back in 1981 and that Beth broke up with him because she didn’t like him anymore. Others that had been at the party were Danny McGinnis and Perry Singleton.
July 20th Salinas and Holstein made contact with Virginia Singleton the mother of Perry Singleton. Asking her if she could tell them where they could find her son and Danny McGinnis, she tells them where to find Perry. Perry stated he didn’t know anything about Kenneth Franks or the two girls that had been murdered other than Danny McGinnis had told him he knew Kenneth real well. Perry had been at the party where Beth Bramlett was last seen alive but he had fallen asleep after the altercation took place and had only been told what happened. He had been told that Beth Bramlett, Robert Watts and Issac Ochoa had run in the woods when some shots were fired, then Issac Ochoa returned and made up with the guy that had the gun, John Robinson. Perry gave the officers directions to where they could find Danny McGinnis. Going to his place of employment Salinas and Holstein interviewed McGinnis, he stated he knew Kenneth but he hadn’t seen him for about two or three months or about a month before the murders. McGinnis had seen Kenneth while they were swimming at Koehne Park and they hadn’t talked much. Kenneth appeared to be happy, had a new motorcycle and was glad to be out of the Home. McGinnis stated he had seen Robert Watts Friday August 13th at the movies and Watts appeared to be wearing a belt that belonged to Beth Bramlett. The case would be suspended two weeks later and it doesn’t look like these leads were ever followed up. I do think it was determined Danny Sizemore was in Alabama when the murders occurred but I don’t know what ever happened with Robert Watts, he looks to be the only connection between the Lake Waco Murders and the Beth Bramlett murder and to be honest it isn’t much to go on, no one reports seeing them together at anytime. What significance Beth Bramlett’s murder has with the Lake Waco Murders is the reaction David Wayne Spence had when he heard about the Bramlett murder. Beth’s first name was Gayle and that’s how her name was printed in the paper, when David saw this he thought Deeb had killed Gayle Kelly, that shows David didn’t think Deeb was joking when he talked about killing Gayle Kelly.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Thank you, this is very intriguing and they all seem to intertwine. This is the article I was referring to. I have done research for days and cannot seem to find who’s grandmother was murdered in Bellmead, and this person also shot themselves at some point and survived. It’s really driving me crazy then I got pulled into the Lake Waco Murders a lot of the same names and realized that case is full of holes and inconsistencies.
http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Axtell-girls-brutal-murder-still-unsolved-after-35-years-439621893.html
LikeLiked by 3 people
To add to info on Feazells page aug 20 82 .. police report mentions a Charles e sedigas .. from Bellmead was questioned for LWM .. he then advised detectives he was most recent boyfriend of Beth Bramlett , and she had possible been looking for him the last night she was seen.. does anyone have any info on him .. ???
LikeLike
Jwb, as per the report Lt. Horton, the officer that interviewed Sedigas, didn’t put much faith in him. The report doesn’t say when Sedigas was originally arrested or what the original charges were, at some point Sedigas assaulted an officer, the report states this happened while in was in the Bellmead jail.
So going by the report Sedigas was first in the Bellmead Jail was transferred to the County Jail in Waco and then returned to Bellmead. He states the last time he saw Beth Bramlett was a few days before she disappeared, I think Sedigas could have already been locked up when Beth was killed, everything he tells Horton about apparently happened two or three weeks before, even if what he says is true it would be before her murder. Finding when Sedigas was first arrested would help but it’s hard to find records, at least on the internet, from that far back.
LikeLike
mmaaix, thank you for sharing the article, Honestly I don’t know too much about the Beth Bramlett case just the stuff I’ve come across researching the Lake Waco Murders and of coarse I don’t know what you have dug up in your research, I know there seems to be a lot of unsolved murders in Texas, have you looked into the I-35 killer or killings? Originally Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole confessed to many of these crimes only to recant later or found to be not involved, I know that’s what happened with the Dorothy Collins murder, she was killed in Waco in January 1981. Some one that might be a suspect in Beth Bramlett’s murder is Benny Tijerina Jr. About ten years ago he was found guilty of killing a couple back in the late 70’s, this had been a crime Lucas had admitted to. The gun used to kill this couple was a .22 caliber the same as in the Bramlett murder. DNA connected Tijerina to this murder, he pleaded guilty but said he didn’t do the shooting he was just an accomplice. So you might be interested in looking into Tijerina if you haven’t already done so.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Revisiting the Robert Watts story made me think of the Gregg Watts story, don’t know how true it is and the details are very sketchy but it’s one of those stories when you put it with other information the police obtained it makes you wonder. On Monday July 19th Officer Nicoletti got a call from Detective Bostick of the Homicide Division Houston P.D.. Bostick had taken a call from an unknown subject. The subject told Bostick he had met two male subjects at a party, one of these men said they had stolen a 1974 Chevy off a warehouse parking lot near Waco, then the two men drove into Waco picked up three kids at Koehne Park, tied them up and stabbed them to death near Lake Waco. After this the two men abandoned the van and stole a Ford White Pick up somewhere north of Waco and that part of the license plate on the truck was EZ1. The caller told the Detective he only knew the name of one of these males; Greg Watts, white male 34 years old, caller didn’t know the name of the other male but described him as a black male, 28 years old, went by the nickname King and had recently been paroled from TDC to Legrange. Interesting to say the least.
Nicoletti, Ranger Joe Wiley and Larry Abner from the Sheriff’s office followed up this lead, they couldn’t find anything on a Gregg Watts but they did find that a Ford Van that had been stolen from a food warehouse in San Antonio had been recovered from Fort Fisher. Abner was able to track down the King subject, his name was Delano King. King had been arrested a few times including charges for drugs and auto thief. but King had been paroled in 1976 and lived in Fayetteville. The van that had been stolen had already been returned to San Antonio. The plate number on the van was EV2218. All this can be found in Nicoletti’s report of July 20th. Nothing ever seems to come from this information and I probably wouldn’t make much of it but then there was another little piece of information Abner and Nicoletti received a few days later.
They talked to one Clarence Pierce on July 22, he had been at Speegleville Park on the night of July 13th. Pierce told them he had gone to a party and remembered seeing the Orange Pinto pulling in between 9:30 p.m. and 10:p.m., he remembered seeing two girls a blonde and a dark haired sitting in the front seats and he saw the blonde girl get out of the car. Pierce said he thought there was two or three males in the back seat and that one was black. Pierce believed the people in the Pinto were selling drugs. And then when the party started to break up a little before 11:00 p.m., people wanted to leave before the gates closed, the Pinto drove deeper into the park. Pierce described the black male as very tall and skinny, here is the physical description Abner got from the officer he spoke to about Delano King; 6’3, 170 pounds, very skinny. This can be found in Nicoletti’s report of July 23.
LikeLiked by 2 people