Mrs. Thompson, a lady with few words but so much wisdom, apparently I’m the polar opposite I write plenty of words and we have sent a search team to find some wisdom but they haven’t recovered any yet. With that said, I have plenty to say in response to your last reply. First I would say for some one like me you are some one involved in this case, though you didn’t take an active role (testify) in the trials, you were there, you are family, you have an inside view few could ever have. You know there are so many areas an outsider like myself can never touch but they are always in the back of my mind, those family interactions through this whole tragedy, the difference between how the victims families have dealt with this, the feelings has exist between the families that are forever connected by this atrocity. I guess you could consider those things curiosity and do nothing towards finding the truth. But trying to understand the doubts some one with such an intimate connection to the case, I do have some questions for you,
Mrs. Thompson I understand you have been mislead over the years, I have seen it in many of the news articles I read, journalists with biased views misrepresenting the facts. People like Fred Dannen claiming he has all the answers and can prove everything, I hope he still writes his book even if he doesn’t get the truth he was so sure about when he began. I know Mr. Dannen talked to the families and played the confession tapes for them, were you privy to that? With being mislead by these people has it given you a different view on things pertaining to this case? I also know Anthony Melendez has corresponded with the victims families professing his innocence and has garnered some sympathy, did anyone from the family ever ask him direct questions? What were his answers? You have met these people, seen them through the trials and with that you can get a feeling about a person, that gut feeling or intuition. How did you feel about Mr. Franks, Gayle Kelly, Christine Juhl, Clifford Oliver, David Spence, Muneer Deeb, Anthony Melendez, Gilbert Melendez, Kareem Quasim, Kebana Reed, Truman Simons, Ramon Salinas, Dennis Baier? In the aftermath and all that has transpired since the original convictions have your thoughts and feelings changed? What about Carlton Stowers, you talked to him while he was gathering information for his book, you have expressed your doubts about the convictions, Mr. Stowers was 100% convinced of their guilt, far more so than I would think most people even those like myself that still feel they got the right guys, and I would guess he still believes in this. What did you feel about him? And now that your views are probably in conflict with those of his has that changed your initial feelings about him? Do you ever talk to him?
I definitely would like to talk to some of the people that were involved with this case, I have plenty of questions. For me, again reminding you I feel the original convictions were correct, I know the case was weak, any case without physical evidence is, it’s not rather Spence, Deeb and the Melendez brothers are guilty, and depending on what can be found there might be others, it’s just finding that “MISSING LINK” that puts everything together, I feel some one out there holds the key to that. But how can we get that conversation started? I’m trying that’s what this was all about, I admit I’m failing but I’m not going to give up. I probably should take a cue from you and keep things short, and just ask a few questions per post.
Mrs. Thompson I thought I would answer the questions you asked me with your private message here so you can see everything is above board and I’m not trying to hide anything. I don’t have a problem nor did I ever with given my name on this site or telling you who I am. I thought and I guess I was mistaken, that after I had messaged you on facebook about a year ago you would know who I was so I didn’t see how or what other information I could give that could prove that. I didn’t realize you hadn’t seen that message. So there is no misunderstanding, I will put the same information I gave you here so everyone can see. My name is Brian Lewis, I’m 48 and live outside of Cambridge Maryland.
I have never had any contact with anybody that has anything to do with this case, not Truman Simons, Carlton Stowers, Fred Dannen or Vic Feazell. I would love to talk to many people that were involved with this case, I have so many questions I would ask. In regards to Michael Hall, which I have stated before I have never had any contact with him but I did make comments on-line about his article. Whomever was in control of the site that carried his article deleted some of my comments, specifically when I posted the response Mr. Feazell’s attorney made to Mr. Hall’s article which Mr. Hall decided not to publish. Remember Mr. Hall made the statement in that article that Mr. Feazell did not wish to comment or make a statement, that wasn’t true. When I pointed that out and the hypocrisy of someone claiming to be looking for the truth but printing lies my comments were deleted and as you can surely check on now the comment section of that article has been closed so people can no longer make comments. Mrs. Thompson it was this that gave me the idea to try to start a site where people could talk about the case. Any and all information I have gotten on this case is from what I have read either from Mr. Stowers’ book, police reports, trial testimony and news articles.
Mrs Thompson I understand that you would have a difficult time understanding why some just average joe off the street would be so interested in this case and spend so much time following it and reading about it. All I can say is maybe it has something to do with the internet age in which we live these days. Back when I read the book back in the 80’s I never thought over thirty years later I would still be interested in this case. It did stick with me and when the internet launched in 1993 and I saw the articles about Muneer Deeb winning his appeal and re-trial, I remembered the case from what I had read in the book. I must say I was shocked he got to walk free. Then I started seeing the articles that were questioning David Spence’s guilt, mostly written by those that are opposed to the death penalty, as I am. Though I wish our country would do away with the death penalty, in our quest to abolish the death penalty we can’t forget the truth. I’m afraid this may be happening with this case, I see it in the articles or opinion pieces, sometimes I wonder were they are getting their information or are they just making things up. Many crimes have found their place on the internet, there are boards or communities or sites whatever you would like to call them dedicated to particular cases, actually I’ve been to many of these sites and that helped put the idea in my head. This case, The Lake Waco Murders, should have it’s own place. There were so many things that were left undone or questions left unanswered.
Mrs. Thompson you mentioned DNA, as you know I always doubted the DNA evidence was ever going to prove anything, I try not to get into the graphic details of the crime but to better explain my thoughts I guess I have to. The girls were sexually assaulted but no foreign or questionable body fluids were found in or on their bodies, M.E.’s obvious conclusion either a condom or foreign object was used. Body fluids left on or in the body of a victim is conclusive evidence anyone would have a hard time trying to explain that away. But this was not the kind of DNA that was tested, hairs that were in the bindings of the victims were found, and unlike it has been reported many times there were no foreign pubic hairs found. I’m trying to print a copy of the M.E.’s report so this can be clearly shown but I’m having a hard time doing so, what I would suggest for anyone that is interested go look at that report it’s online. There will be four mentions of pubic hairs;
Line 12 Pubic Hair Combings- 82p1633 K9
Line 13 Pubic Hair Combings- 82p1632 K8
Line 25 Known Pubic Hairs- Jill Montgomery K9
Line 27 Known Pubic Hair- Raylene Rice K11
Translation for those that might not understand the pubic hairs described; on lines 25 and 27 were hairs the M.E. plucked from the girls bodies to use for comparison against the hairs mentioned on lines 12 and 13 that were on the girls bodies but were not attached or became loose during the combing. Line 12 is self explanatory the hair on line 12 match K(which denotes known unlike U, UK or Q with denotes unknown or questionable) 9 which is Jill Montgomery. Line 13 is a little harder to explain but still seeing it listed as K tells us it’s origin is known it’s listed a K8, the only other article listed as K8 is Jill’s Head Hair. Whatever question there may be about these hairs the report clearly shows there are no pubic hairs of questionable or unknown origin. Also if you look at the report you will see Fred Dannen’s name these were the articles he paid to have tested. I’ve stated many times before why hairs that were found in the bindings would not conclusively prove anyone’s innocence it could only show otherwise so I won’t repeat. With some of the other DNA collected, there was blood found in David’s car but it was such a minut amount at the time it couldn’t be determined if it was human and animal, again that couldn’t prove innocence the only thing that would be conclusive is if it was found to be the victim’s blood,
I know I was suppose to keep this short and have a question, I can’t even stick to my own program. But here’s my question; there were many other items found and collected by the police from different parks around the lake, the items I’m wondering about were collected at Airport Park. The police obtained information that a Henry Landers had heard a terrifying scream behind the boathouse at Airport Park. A couple officers went and did a search around the area, I would have to look up whom the two officers were but for some reason I think it was Salinas and Fortune maybe. They found a bloody knife, a empty condom wrapper, a used condom, a Budweiser beer can, a Coor’s beer can. a small bottle, like one used for syringes, with an unknown substance inside and a broken table leg. The officers didn’t think the knife could have been the knife used in the murders but they bagged it and tagged it and I guess it ended up in some evidence locker. Now knowing what we do know about this case, are those articles still around and can they be tested for DNA?
Is there anyway I can private message you? I was told by T Simons that a knife had been found but when they started to check it out it had disappeared. Simons stated that Salinas was the one who found it. Is this the same knife you spoke of? Simons remarked ” it wasn’t the murder weapon anyway !” However, he didn’t explain how he knew it wasn’t.
Yes Ma’am, you can contact me anyway you would like. I’m not very computer savvy, here’s my email address bbb2359@yahoo.com. I must say I don’t check my email too often, it’s usually just junk, spam and trash!!! I know I messaged you one time before on facebook. I will do this again, look for my message in your other inbox.
Mrs. Thompson, there were many knives the police checked out or collected. One the Van Horn brothers found July 14 off Speegleville Road, it was a butcher knife and didn’t look to have any blood on it, Nicoletti and Texas Ranger Wiley collected this knife. A subject by the name of Mike Sutton, someone whom had talked to police about this case gave his boss, Mr. Montoya, a knife to hold, Mr. Montoya called the police about this knife, Salinas checked this out. Salinas also checked out a knife that belonged to a Jimmy Don Lewis, it was a brass knife and Salinas didn’t think this could have been the knife. I don’t think Salinas took these knives. An ex-police officer from the Woodway PD, Officer Landrine, was out jogging by Highway 84 and found a knife, Salinas collected this knife.
I mixed up a couple things again. The police did get information about a Henry Landers hearing a scream behind the Bass Clubhouse at Airport Park. On July 27 Salinas and Fortune went out to Airport Park and checked the area but didn’t find anything. On July 26 a Robert Lewis brought a knife to the police station and gave it to Officer Lilliard at the dispatcher’s Office. He told the officer he found the knife July 25 while he was hunting out at Veterans Park. When he found the knife it had blood on it but he had taken the knife home and cleaned it before he brought it into the station. He also saw a used condom where he found the knife.The next day, July 27, Nicoletti and Deputy Abraham contacted Mr. Lewis and went out to Veterans Park where Mr. Lewis had found the knife, which was below the bridge that spans the North Bosque River on Highway 185. There they found the other items I mentioned, they called Special Investigator Lyon to come take photographs of everything and everything was dusted for prints. Salinas and Fortune were shown this knife and they didn’t think it could have been the knife used, so the items were placed in the property room. This is the knife along with the others items I’m talking about.
I know Veterans Park and Highway 185 are at the north end of the lake and away from the areas associated with this case but Anthony did state at one time he threw things from the car as they were driving over a bridge, of coarse the obvious choice was the twin bridges on Highway 6 and I would guess if the lake was ever searched this would have been the area checked and I don’t think anything was ever found. Did they ever check other areas of the lake? I know a lot of people point to Anthony not being able to accurately describe the details of that night as that’s a sign of his innocence. Whom does it benefit not knowing all the details of what happened that night? Surely not law enforcement or the prosecutors or the victims families. Killers saying they are cooperating and being honest often are not. They lie and mislead. Just to name a few other killers that said they were helping police and giving them information about their crimes but were lying and misleading police; Ted Bundy, Henry Lee Lucas, Susan Atkins, actually it’s not uncommon.
Many of the girls from the Methodist Home reported Muneer Deeb gave them marijuana and some even stated he gave them pills. Giving teenage girls drugs sounds like it could be a crime, why didn’t the police do anything about this? And maybe a better question whom was supplying Deeb with these drugs?
I was told there were several times when The Rainbow Store was off limits to the children from the M home. I do not know how well that restriction was handled by either Deeb or the home.
Deeb also gave them sodas, chips, and cigarettes.
Mrs. Thompson, if I’m not mistaken this was after all this happened, once the staff of the Home became aware of what was going on when girls like Lisa Kader started talking. Prior to July 15 the girls from the Methodist Home were in that store all the time according to many people including Kareem and Maria Quasim. Maria was not happy at all about the situation and I don’t think she was even aware of the drugs, she just didn’t like these girls coming around and how Deeb and maybe to some point her husband treated them. Once the staff got wind of all this the Rainbow Drive-In was off limits. Don’t forget Lisa Kader and Faye Pearson both met David Spence at the store while they lived at the home, Dolores Perez, another girl from Home testified she considered Deeb a good friend because he was always nice to her and gave her things. Gayle and Deeb’s relationship wasn’t an isolated incident, it was a culture that was created at that Home.
I know they dusted for prints on Raylene’s Pinto and they found a few, did they ever find or try to find prints that matched? Did they dust Clifford Oliver’s car for prints?
Mrs. Thompson what did you think about Clifford Oliver, did you find him believable? I was reading the transcript of his Grand Jury Testimony again this weekend, there’s a troubling example of American jurisprudence if there ever was one. I can’t understand why Clifford Oliver wasn’t arrested right on the spot for perjury. Mrs. Thompson I’m not sure how familiar or how much you remember about the Grand Jury Testimony, so I’ll just go over some of the hot spots.
Clifford Oliver had taken off to California with Terry Gutierrez in August after the police found out about the insurance scam they were trying to pull off with his car. He returned to Waco just in time to report to the Navy October 1. He returned to Waco after boot camp, roughly mid-December. It was during this time that three people Josie Scionti(?), Diane and Harold Windham called crime stoppers and talked to police or Truman Simons. They reported that Clifford had taken them to where the murders had occurred at Koehne Park and where the bodies were left at Spleegleville Park. Clifford Denied this saying that these people were just trying to frame him so they could collect the reward that was being offered. I guess it depends whom you want to believe but if those people did in fact know the locations, someone had to show them and they said it was Clifford Oliver, the same Clifford Oliver that was with David Spence at least in the early AM hours of July 14. If this isn’t troubling enough there’s plenty more.
This Josie girl was the girl Clifford was seeing before he took off to California. She would also state that she went out to Speegleville park with Clifford and David the day after the bodies were discovered. Again Clifford denied this, he said he only saw David one time after July 14 and that was at the Northwood apartments and he was with Josie at that time, they never went to the park.
Clifford testified the reason Harold and the girls called him that night in December was because they knew he was friends with David and the talk around town was David was a suspect in the murders. I would have to question that, to this day most of the officers that investigated this case still say they don’t believe Spence was a viable suspect including Salinas, Horton and Fortune. Outside of Simons no one was looking at Spence at that time (December 1982) so how could it have been the talk around town, it only became the talk around the people Clifford knew because he gave them information.
Simons set up a day to talk to Clifford, Clifford did not show up that day. It looks like he went and talked to Cal Frazier to get their stories straight, again Clifford denied this, he said he went and talked to Cal after he talked to Simons.
During his testimony to the Grand Jury about what he did July 13 and 14, at first he did not mention he had gone to Koehne Park the night of July 13 it wasn’t until he was talking about the morning of July 14 then he said he just remember he and Cal had gone to Koehne Park that night and saw three guys in a truck that they tried to get a joint from. He never described the truck or three guys, maybe Spence and the Melendez brothers in Gilbert’s truck? Then only a couple sentences later Clifford says it was he and Todd that went to the park. One could question if he was talking about another time but both Clifford and Todd stated they had just met each other, their trip to the park had to be that night.
Clifford gives the details of what the guys did the morning of July 14. According to him, they followed David take Christine to work at 7am and then David dropped his car off across the street. From there they drove to Midway Park to pick up his car that he had left the night before. So they drop Cal and David off at the Dairy Queen and Clifford, Todd and John go to Todd’s house so Clifford can call the police about his car, when he does he finds his car has been taken to the impound lot on LaSalle. The guys pick up Cal and David and then go to the impound to get Clifford’s car. After this Todd and John went home, Clifford, Cal and David went to Koehne Park and drank a couple beers, Clifford says they got there between 8:30am and 9:am and that is when he saw the orange Pinto and that they were sitting on picnic table by that car. Is this timeline believable? The police were at Koehne Park checking out the Pinto around 9:00am that morning. Clifford didn’t see any police or vice versa.
Really is Clifford Oliver the one telling the truth here?
Smith is a very common name but some Smith’s are related, there are four Smith’s whose names come up in regards to this case that I find interesting. Do they have any connection to each other or this case?
An Informant told police he saw a yellow Cadillac pull into a car wash about 3:00am July 14. The car had blood on the door and fender, the driver said he had hit a dog, the informant thought it was strange because he didn’t see any damage to this car. He didn’t know the driver’s name but he had seen him around and knew he hung around with David Wilkins. yes of the same Wilkins clan that hung out with Tab Harper. The police tracked down a yellow Cadillac belonging to a Steven Smith but couldn’t find any trace of blood on the car. End of the yellow Cadillac story? The day Christine and Deeb got into the argument Doris Tucker reported and testified about, Christine was in a yellow Cadillac. She was trying to help her friend Sharon get this car through inspection, it needed a headlight, this is why Christine stopped by the store to borrow $10. She got the money from Kareem, when she went back to return the money Kareem was gone and Deeb was there and that’s when the argument ensued. Was this Sharon trying to get this yellow Cadillac through inspection because a transfer of ownership? And back then whom would turn to Christine Juhl for help, she couldn’t even help herself. All I know is a lot of people that were connected to this case were getting rid of their cars shortly after the murders. David traded his Malibu, Clifford Oliver was trying to make his car disappear, the Gutierrez brothers wrecked their car in August and when the police talked to James the car was gone. Another question about that car. Mr. Franks took video of this car but said it belonged to a white male and a Hispanic male, did anyone ever look at the video he took? Deeb got rid of his triumph and got a T-bird.
Mrs. Thompson no I don’t know what happened to Deeb’s Triumph. Are you implying Simons bought the car? Or that he just got a hold of the car at sometime and kept it at his house. There are many questionable things one would have to admit that Truman Simons did. I know I don’t give him as hard a time as I give others that investigated this case that’s mainly due to the fact that there are already so many others that do that.
That is the problem with Simons and I guess the whole investigation in general. In the hands of the police and the police department any investigation would follow protocols and procedures, that all went out the window once Simons left the Waco PD and did his own investigation.
The night the murders occurred a Alfred Smith came to the ER with a hand injury, he told the staff that it was a fishing accident, that he had fallen down an embankment and punctured his hand on a pole. The doctor thought the puncture was too clean to be that kind of injury, he thought it had been caused by a knife and called the police thinking about the murders that had happened that night. That’s all on this character.
Det Salinas got information from Bellmead PD Detective Hix about a subject named Bennie Smith, Hix had come into contact with this subject because he had abandoned his car at an apartment complex. His car was a dark gold Monte Carlo, a gold or brown Monte Carlo was seen at the park the night of the murders. Hix told Salinas he needed to talk to a girl by the name of Kim Lauderdale. Kim Lauderdale told Salinas that Bennie had told her he knew whom killed the kids. Kim described Bennie as 5-8, slender build, brown curly hair and 19 or 20 yoa.
On August 3 Salinas talked to a Glenda Mailly, she told him she was at the park March 15, a friend of her’s had just passed and she just wanted to be alone. While she was there this strange guy walked up behind her, she was harsh with this guy and told him to get away from her but then she thought that this guy had more problems than she did and they talked. He made comments that he hated the teenagers that hung out at the park because they made fun of him and he felt he could kill them sometimes. This strange guy was a Daniel Smith, Ms. Mailly described him as 5-7, 130 pounds, brown curly hair, wide eyes, fair complexion, about 20yoa. Salinas tracked down this Daniel Smith and went to his place of employment, well his former place of employment he had been fired July 3. Daniel Smith had a blue Grand Prix, a blue car was seen at the park that night actually parked next to the Pinto with two guys talking to the girls. This Daniel Smith’s parents were from Bellmead. Daniel’s former boss Patsy Cummings told Salinas she had talked to Jimmy Morgan from the Bellmead PD on July 15 about Daniel. Remember Debbie Cunningham was at the park the night of July 13 and she reported a strange guy walked up behind the truck she was in and then up to the window, when the guy Debbie was with reached under the seat like he was getting something this stranger ran away. The description she gave of this stranger 5-6 to 5-8, 150 pounds, early 20’s and clean shaven no beard or mustache. Mr. Stowers in his book wrote Debbie was lying about the description and the guy she saw did have a beard and mustache and that it was David Spence. Why would Debbie lie? But don’t these descriptions sound familiar or similar and there seems to be a connection with Bellmead with both Bennie and Daniel.
I would like to clear up a few things I posted the other day. I had posted I couldn’t remember which girl reported what with Donna Olsen and Mary Padilla. Donna Olsen was the girl that went to the funeral and told police about the boat being gone and also about the comment Mr. Franks made to John Ashley about the bodies being found where he use to go camping. Mary Padilla was the girl that reported seeing Kenneth Franks the night of July 13 riding around with two guys in a silver truck.
Also about the blood found in David Spence’s Malibu, there were three spots found. There was blood on the passenger armrest that test could not determine if it was human or animal. Then there was blood on the carpet near the passenger door and on the passenger seat belt both were found to be human blood but the blood type could not be determined.
Thank you for your response. I appreciate knowing who I am talking with.
Another question : during your research, did you come across DeAnna Storts Pate interview? I have always believed her information. She passed away in 2001 taking a lot of the truth with her (in my opinion).
Mrs. Thompson, yes I know DeAnna Storts was the girl that reported seeing Kenneth in the maroon Lincoln with Robert Frueh. This car came and left the park a number of times, she states she saw Kenneth leave the park in this car. About 45 minutes later the car returned which would have been approximately 9:45pm to 10:00pm and she did not see Kenneth at that time. If I’m not mistaken Ricky Pate didn’t have much information to give, he confirmed he was in the park with DeAnna that night but he really couldn’t remember much. He did say that DeAnna had told him she knew the victim, Kenneth Franks, and that she remembered seeing him at the park that night. There’s a lot to look at here and I think this one witness and report gives us an overall view how this investigation was handled right from the beginning.
Apparently DeAnna called crime stoppers the first time early on maybe July 16, I’m not sure on the date but DeAnna didn’t have a home phone so it looks like she called from work, she worked at the Red Cross during the week and that’s where Sgt. Holstien would call her Tuesday July 20. The whole idea of setting up a hotline (crimestoppers) so people could call in tips was kind of a new thing and you can see many times in this case the dissemination of this information was not as speedy or smoothly transferred as one would expect. What’s the use of setting up a hotline if you’re not going to share that information ASAP? This was especially true after the case was suspended, Just thinking of Doris Tucker as one example, how long did it take any law enforcement officer to talk to her once she called? There were a few others also but even after they suspended the case they did so with the stipulation the case was suspended but they would check out any new information or new tips if and when they came in. I think people calling crime stoppers constitutes new information or tips. Apparently when DaAnna called crime stoppers she mentioned the maroon Lincoln but it is not mentioned in the report Sgt. Holstien types about the phone conversation she had with DeAnna. In this report Holstien states DeAnna told her that DeAnna and Rick got to the park approximately 9:15, DeAnna knew the time because she had looked at her watch as they pulled into the park. She states she talked to Kenneth, just a simple hi how you doing and he responded, DeAnna says Kenneth was in the front passenger seat, she gave no description of the two girls. She knew Kenneth because he had dating one of DeAnna’s friends named Michelle Lewis that lived at the same apartment complex on Rambler, DeAnna in apartment #7 and Michelle in apartment #5. DeAnna also stated that she and Rick left to go get something to eat and were gone about 20 minutes and when they returned she saw the Pinto again. DeAnna states she and Rick left the park around 11:00pm, this was the one fact Rick was able to confirm because he said he got home about 11:15pm. That’s all the information Holstien gives in this report.
About three weeks later DeAnna calls crime stoppers again, when she had called the first time she didn’t know the license plate number of the maroon Lincoln but now she had it and that’s when they tracked it down to Robert Frueh. Remember Ronald Robinson had also stated he saw Robert Frueh in the park that night and Ronald also said he saw some guy bring the Pinto into Koehne park about 1:00am, this guy was picked up and then a few minutes later the Lincoln pulled in right behind the Pinto.
DeAnna wasn’t contacted again until November 17, Salinas noticed that she was talked to over the phone before but no one ever interviewed her in person, so he calls her up and sets up an appointment for November 19. Mrs. Thompson I know I’m hard on Salinas at times, this is a prime example why. There were many leads and/or tips left unchecked when the decision was made to suspend this case, a decision he took part in. It’s crystal clear he along with the other investigators working the case missed many things, no one can blame them for that, it’s unfortunate, we don’t like it and no one can be happy about it but unfortunately it does happen. The officers were working long hours, getting tons of calls and information, a lot of it misleading, and they had to track all that down, so things were missed it was a mistake, Salinas needs to man up and admit that, we couldn’t hold it against him. But he does the total opposite I see him making statements or being quoted in article after article, stuff like how he never found anything that pointed to any of the defendants, he didn’t look, there were a lot of things he missed and it’s not true, the police were told Muneer Deeb killed Kenneth Franks because of Gayle Kelly on July 19 but not one officer talked to Deeb nor asked Gayle Kelly about Deeb when they talked to her until Simons and Baier did so in September after the investigation was suspended. These same articles keep mentioning Tab Harper as the most likely perpetrator of these murders, Salinas knows this is not true but he never dispels this notion, he allows this falsehood or rumor to persist if not straight out encouraging it. Articles keep stating many people reported seeing Tab’s black van at the park and the kids get in the van. Salinas tracked these stories down, he spend the majority of the month and a half he was lead investigator on this lead. And what did he find? Only one person said he saw the van at the park that night and everybody else that had reported this heard the story from this one guy and this guy, Rusty Escott had a reputation of telling stories and when Salinas finally realized this and confronted Rusty he changed his story. Rusty had told people he had seen the kids get into the van, later he told police he just saw the kids standing by the van talking to Tab and finally he told Salinas he saw the van but never saw the kids. Do you ever see Salinas ever say anything about this in the papers he’s so willing to talk in. Salinas does nothing to this day other than add more confusion into a case that’s already so messed up. And I know I’m just speculating here but how it looks to me an outsider. Doesn’t it seem strange Salinas suspended the case in the beginning of September and you don’t see him do anything in regards to this case again until November, it as been reported the DA prior to Vic Feazell, I think his name was Reyna, wasn’t interested in the information Simons had gathered and wouldn’t do anything with it but then he lost his re-election bid to Feazell, part of Feazell’s platform was to bring to justice the people that were responsible for the Lake Murders. With this change in the political climate it looks like Salinas starts to go over the files again and looking into some of the things he left undone or missed originally. If nothing else Simons should get credit for proving and bringing to light there were many things the original investigators missed, he kept the case open.
Now back to DeAnna, She came to the police station on November 19 and was interviewed by Salinas. The information she gave was a little different this time or at least put in the report that way. Now she states she and Rick got to the park about 7:00pm. She now adds that she saw one of the girls in the back passenger side seat, she said this was a blonde hair girl. Again she does say she saw Kenneth about 9:15pm but now she says this in when she saw him in the maroon Lincoln leaving the park and that the Lincoln came back about 45 minutes later and Kenneth was not in the car at that time. She gave the same time of 11:00pm as the time she and Rick left the park. It was decided DeAnna should go under hypnosis and a session was set up for the next day November 20. She gave the same information under hypnosis. With this information Salinas and Baier brought in Robert Frueh for an interview on November 22, remind you Robert Frueh’s name had come up a few times before in this investigation yet again he was another subject no one had talked to questioned or interviewed up until this time. The officers felt Robert Frueh wasn’t being honest with them, so they asked if he would go under hypnosis, Robert Frueh lawyered up. And just one of those strange little connections this case has so many of; the lawyer he hired was the same lawyer the Melendez family tried to hire after David Cherry didn’t want to represent Gilbert and Anthony’s lawyer advised Anthony to plead guilty because that lawyer doubted his innocence, that lawyer being one Lou Bright. That would be the last we would hear of Robert Frueh and DeAnna Storts for that matter.
Mrs Thompson along the lines of people the police put under hypnosis, in the trial files they list 9 people as being placed under hypnosis by police between July 22(?) through November 30. Most the names I’m familiar with their names are in the reports but there’s one I can’t find anything on, I haven’t seen her name in any of the reports, it doesn’t look like she ever testified in any of the trials. Her name is Josephine Marie Laskach, do you know anything about her? The only Josephine I see mentioned anywhere in this case is the Josie, taking that’s short for Josephine, Clifford Oliver dated but he states her last name as Scionti, was he just wrong about her last name or lying? It would make since this Josie being Josephine because she did talk to Simons at some point, in Clifford’s Grand Jury testimony he makes it sound like she talked to Simons while Clifford was home in December but if this was the Josephine that was placed under hypnosis by police it couldn’t have been any later than November 30. Also it would make sense if she talked to Simons after he left the police department in October and before the task force was set up when Vic Feazell got into office, we wouldn’t see her name in the police reports, Simons kept his own notes at that time. So when did Josie talk to Simons and what did she have to say at that time? If she is the Josephine that was placed under hypnosis she must of had something very interesting to say.
Mrs Thompson, I really can’t say what information Mr. Dannen has, it looks to me he was placing all is hope in the DNA testing, he spent his own money on the testing. Mrs. Thompson anyone can look at the information or police reports and cobble together a compelling case against any number of suspects, many would say that’s what the state did against Spence, Deeb and the Melendez brothers. I know Mr. Dannen is one of the many that believe Tab Harper is responsible for these murders and has been pushing that theory. I think he was hoping one of those hairs that was in the bindings would be Tab Harper’s then he could hash out the rest of his theory from the information he gathered.
The problem I see with Mr. Dannen’s plan to prove Harper’s guilt is Mr. Dannen is still trying to connect Harper’s van to the crime, I think he even tracked down that van. There is no reliable information that the van was at the park or any of the parks around the lake that night. Again this information came from one source – Rusty Escott – someone that had a history and reputation as being a story teller. a fact Salinas found out the hard way when Escott kept changing his story when he was interviewed. There is only one other reported sighting of Harper in Koehne Park during the evening of July 13, I want to put this in the proper context and you can make of it what you will like.
Around midnight on July 20 Captain Sullins(?) of the Waxahachie PD called Detective Salinas and informed him that an informant had reported that a bike gang called the Scorpions were claiming responsibility for murders. Salinas trying to track this biker gang down had one obvious person he needed to talk to based on information he had at that time. On July 19 Salinas and Fortune found the run away Rebecca DesMarias staying with a biker by the name of Robert Wulf. On July 20 Gayle Kelly, while she was being interviewed by Nicoletti stated Kenneth Franks only had dealings with the bikers through Rebecca DesMarias. Salinas thought Rebecca DesMarias might have information about this bike gang. On July 27 Salinas and Fortune pick up Rebecca DesMarias, bring her to the station and interview her again. Salinas asks her if the people (bikers) that hang around the bike shop on North 18th Street are called the Scorpions. Rebecca says she doesn’t know but she has a friend, Carren Ritchie, that is a friend to a guy that works at the shop named Angel. The officers track down Carren Ritchie later that same day.
Getting an accurate read on the interview with Carren Ritchie is a little difficult and again how Salinas writes his reports doesn’t help. It seems Carren wasn’t being that cooperative and was forth coming with much information, you think that would just add suspicion on these bikers. The report states Carrie said she didn’t know Angel that well, she did know if Angel was his real name or just a nickname she din’t know his last name. She did say she had seen Rebecca DesMarias at Flat Rock Park July 23 and Rebecca DesMarias had told her the police had questioned her about the murders but Rebecca told her that she didn’t say anything because she didn’t know anything. While Salinas and Fortune were questioning Carren another girl came to the apartment and if Carren Ritchie wasn’t giving up much this girl was a whirl wind of information, her name Kathy Prochnow.
Apparently this Kathy Prochnow had lived at the Methodist Home she knew both Kenneth and Jill, she claimed she had actually met Raylene before when she had come to Waco months before with Jill. Then here comes the kicker, she states she was in Koehne Park July 13 from 7:30pm until 9:00pm with Carren and Angel and another biker she only knew by the name of Fingers. She claimed she saw the orange Pinto come into the park with Kenneth and the two girls. Then here comes the problem she didn’t talk to the kids nor could she give any other information about what she saw at the park that night, i.e. other cars other people. Her reason they just drove through the park. So was she at the park the hour and a half 7:30 to 9:00 or did she just drive through or was she there at all? Either way neither girl as mentioned Tab Harper according to the report Carren never said anything about being at the park that night at all. Salinas and Fortune next talk to Angel.
Here’s what the report says about what this Angel said; he was at the park Tuesday night when the girls said. He saw Harper messing around with the kids but he did not see if he was in a car or van or whatever, he doesn’t associate with him and didn’t attempt to. That statement there is the only other reported sighting of Tab Harper in the park that night. You can see the problem with Angel’s statement, he’s only agreeing to information that he believes the police already have or that the girls told them, he says he was in the park when the girls said they were, Carren Ritchie never said she was in the park and Kathy said she was there 7:30 until 9:00 then she said she had just rode through. Was Angel being cooperative or was he just going along with what he was told to avoid any discrepancies?
Mrs. Thompson this information is never going to change, these are the only two reported sightings of Tab Harper in Koehne Park on the night of July 13, anyone Fred Dannen or whomever are going to have a very difficult time making any realistic case against Tab Harper on this information and that is all that is there, but this looks like the path Mr. Dannen has been traveling. Anyone that wants to connect and make a case that Harper is the killer, and you know I’m not on that boat I just keep it in sight in case I do want to get on if I see it’s going in the right direction, has to shift their focus from Koehne Park to Midway Park and you can immediately see the problems and questions that will arise.
A couple things on this, you know early on there was some though that the bodies could have been transferred from Koehne Park to Speegeville Park by boat, in the end the prevailing belief was if the bodies were transferred by boat why not leave the bodies closer to the shore. Though the bodies were close to the water they were placed at the edge of the woods, these woods ran along the coastline of the lake but where the bodies were left whomever put them there, if they did so from a boat would have had to traverse these woods to place the bodies where they were found, why not just drop them off in the woods closer to the shoreline I agree with these conclusion. But there has always been a question that has been left unanswered, remember when Russ Hunt asked Jesse Ivy why would anyone tie up someone after they had killed them, Ivy answered he couldn’t explain sick behavior. The physical evidence clearly shows at least Jill’s hands were tied up after she was attacked she had defensive wounds on her right hand. So why would anyone tie bodies up after they have been killed? The grisly answer; you would tie the bodies up if you were planning to weigh their bodies down with something to drop in the lake. Again there are a lot of holes and questions with that line of thinking and not that I believe this is what happened. This is just what came to mind the first time I read the trial transcripts, I couldn’t believe Hunt asked that question, what answer did he really think he was going to get? An attorney shouldn’t ask a question in open court unless he reasonably believes he already knows the answer.
The sightings of Tab Harper being out at the lake reported he was seen on Wednesday July 14, the day the bodies were and at Midway Park it was reported he arrived in a boat not a van or car. At Koehne Park he arrived in a bronze colored Pinto with a guy named Lefty, whose left hand was bandaged and a Greg Cubbison that had recently gotten released from jail or prison. The M.E. stated in her report the assailant was probably left handed – “Lefty” and Gayle Kelly told police Kenneth was planning to make a big deal with someone that had just returned to Waco recently – Cubbison. Gayle also told police that Kenneth liked to party with Harper because he always had good drugs. I don’t know if the police ever tracked down this lefty and it looks, going by the trial files they only pulled Cubbison’s arrest record, they never interviewed or questioned him.
Mrs. Thompson earlier you stated you believed DeAnna Storts’ story or what she reported, I think she was telling the truth the only question is; how well did she know Kenneth Franks? She did state she did talk to him that night in passing so maybe this question doesn’t matter but she reported she met Kenneth through a friend that dated him and this girl lived at the Rambler apartments she gave the name Michelle Lewis. Kenneth Franks was dating a girl from that apartment at the time, many people stated this girl’s was name Michelle Schillings, the only other person to refer to this girl as Michelle Lewis was Tammie Boddie, Donnie Culp’s girlfriend. I’m taking it these two Michelles are the same girl unless there were two Michelles that lived in the same apartment and both dated Kenneth, one in the past and one at the time of the murders. Taking it that they are the same girl, Kenneth had only been seeing this girl for about a week and if DeAnna met him through this girl, as she told police was the case, it had to be within a of a week of the murders. Anyway out of all the people that reported seeing the kids that night none of them could accurately describe what the girls were wearing, The closest was Candyce Satterwhite whom under hypnosis said the blonde hair girl was wearing a purple and gray top Raylene was wearing a red and white top, playing with the shades of this girl’s memory you can get to red and white from purple and gray. Then there is one hypnosis session that was totally chilling, imagine standing there when this girl relates the information she has, she’s not lying she’s under hypnosis she is relaying what her mind remembers. The police believed this girl’s story before they placed her under hypnosis and one detail she gave during that session only added to that belief. I think she was one of the most reliable sources of information. Her name was Karen Hoskins, I know I’ve mentioned her before, but you just can’t over look what she said. Karen was at Midway Park not Koehne, she had gone water skiing with a married man named Mike McQueen, something neither Ms. Hoskins nor Mr. McQueen wanted to become public. What they reported was they had seen a boat out on the lake without any running lights on, McQueen added he saw the boat earlier at Koehne Park when they were skiing in that area. This boat was running about the lake without any lights after dark and Hoskins and McQueen were still at the boat ramp when this boat pulled in. There were three men, Hoskins could only describe two of them. I need to add a Shannon McAffrey also reported seeing this boat running without lights while she was skiing with her family, she was also at Midway Park. Though this information about the guys running around the lakes without lights is intriguing it’s by far not the highlight of what Ms. Hoskins had to say.
In her original statement to police Karen Hoskins states while she was sitting at the boat ramp at Midway Park she saw the orange Pinto, she saw a blonde hair girl driving and this girl was alone. She was shown a picture of Raylene Rice and Ms. Hoskins was positive this was the girl she had seen. She continued; this girl sat at the boat ramp for a while then would ride up to the store sit there for awhile then return to the boat ramp. Hoskins said this girl did this a few times, 4 or 5 times, she thought the girl was either waiting for some one or waiting for someone. One of the times this girl was waiting by the boat ramp a silver and black pick up pulled up to the orange Pinto and a girl and boy got out of the truck and went over and talked to the girl in the Pinto for a few minutes then left. Ms. Hoskins didn’t describe the girl and boy that got out of the truck. Finally when the boat that was running without it lights was loaded up and pulled off the girl in the Pinto pulled up behind them and began to follow them. From her vantage point Ms. Hoskins couldn’t see if the Pinto followed the truck with the boat out of the park.. This was her story, a story the police believed and for many reasons, Ms. Hoskins came forward even though she didn’t want anybody to know she was there with Mr. McQueen and why would anyone decide to come forward with information about Midway Park when with all the information that had been made public had to do with either Koehne Park or Speegleville Park. Feeling this was true and wondering if Karen Hoskins could provide any further information a hypnosis session was set up. Under hypnosis she gave the same information, she was asked was she sure it was Raylene Rice she had seen, Ms. Hoskins again was positive it was. She was asked could she describe what Raylene was wearing? Remember Ms. Hoskins had only seen Raylene in the car driving by a few times, so she could only see the top part of her body, Karen Hoskins answered it was a white with orange or brownish striped top!!! Of coarse that wasn’t the top Raylene was wearing but that is the description of the towel used to tie the victims up. Dozens of interviews with people that said they had seen the kids and Karen Hoskins under hypnosis was the only one that accurately described an article that was found on the girls when the bodies were discovered. At some point on the night of July 13 did Raylene Rice have that towel draped over her shoulders? Why does some one wrap a towel over their body? Maybe she had been out on the water?
Mrs. Thompson as usual I went a little off track but there is a point there somewhere. I don’t know if Mr. Dannen has found anything but there is plenty out there. What I’ve seen reported he was chasing down Tab Harper’s van and waiting for the DNA results, I feel that’s just an empty search. Mrs Thompson I do have a question for you; you said Mr. Dannen presenting things to the family and you believed him, may I ask what information he put out in front of the family? What was it he said or showed you that gave you belief in what he was saying. I know you said you didn’t talk to him anymore, I think I would express my disappointment with him. Like I said I hope he still writes his book even if this journey didn’t lead him the discovery he was looking for. As you ask how can he keep hiding out with information or case files, I don’t understand this at all. What does a liberal journalist do when he realizes the imaginary idealistic world he believes in doesn’t exist? I guess he runs down to Mexico and drowns his disappointments and the truth with tequila.
I hav stated many times that I see NO resemblance between Jill and Gayle. Truman had told me “they look enough alike to be sisters” !! That is ridiculous !
As to the apartment, I just don’t believe a prediction of a 17 year old is possible. I DO KNOW that Jill was begging to stay at home after her July 4th visit. According to her Mother, Jill even acted like she was afraid to go back to Waco……..I am aware there was probably some kind of drug situation involved in all this. Some of the parents want to stick their head in the sand and try to hide their children being involved in anything on the “dark side”. I love Jill with all my heart but I know she had problems.
Mrs. Thompson, again thank you, I think you hit the nail on the head with the drug situation, that has been my belief for a very long time, like more than 20 years, the problem has always been finding that piece of information that puts it’s all together. I feel a piece of information some one knows, I still lean towards Gayle Kelly, Christine Juhl and Clifford Oliver. Your insight about Jill’s mother saying that “Jill even acted like she was afraid to go back to Waco”, is very telling. I’m not sure if sharing my own unproven theory is a worthwhile pursuit, so feel free to be harsh and criticize.
It can’t be disputed there was bad blood between Kenneth Franks and Muneer Deeb and I think it’s safe to conclude Gayle Kelly had something to do with this but what was at the heart of this dispute? Was it a case of some messed up love triangle? Of coarse not, Gayle and Kenneth were both dating other people, Gayle was in love with Henry Reyes and Kenneth was seeing Michelle Schillings. And look at how Muneer Deeb acted in very similar situations where he liked girls but they rejected him and used him. I’m talking about Kebana Reed and Dana Diamond. Muneer Deeb was a weak little man, when these girls hurt him he didn’t go after the men in these girl’s lives, though he did tell Dana he was going to blow up her apartment while both she and her boyfriend Steve were there. he made threats to the girls, stalked the girls, that was his M.O., that’s not what we have in this case. It was something else that caused the bad blood between he and Kenneth Franks, with what information is out there something to do with drugs looks like the most probable cause.
I think a drug deal went bad between Kenneth Franks and Muneer Deeb prior to July 13, a drug deal Gayle Kelly knew about and probably helped precipitate or arrange by bringing Franks and Deeb together. Deeb ended up the offended party in this deal gone bad, Franks had no plans to make things right and maybe even rubbed it in Deeb’s face, what could Deeb do? I think Deeb turned to Gayle Kelly, I also think this is what was behind the visits Deeb made to Fort Fisher while Gayle was working. The visits Lou Booker, Jill’s and Gayle’s supervisor, told Sgt Baier about, informing him that she witnessed Gayle, Jill and Deeb talking about Kenneth Franks and that Deeb seemed very agitated. Maybe this was part of the reason why Gayle Kelly decided to run away at this time, she just wanted to get away from the situation. This problem was no longer something she could just avoid by staying out of the store, Deeb was bringing it to her place of employment. That leaves one question why did Gayle call Deeb when she decided to leave town? It would be very interesting to know what they talked about during that ride to Fort Worth and the ride back. When Deeb finally realized Gayle wasn’t going to help fix this problem and in many ways side with Kenneth Franks and leave Deeb in the cold, that’s when he made the decision to eliminate both Kenneth Franks and Gayle Kelly. I’m not sure when this happened; before or after Deeb let Gayle stay at the apartment or even before or after he took out the insurance policy, was he already planning something before he did these things and if so whom was he planning this with?
Here’s one part of my theory I haven’t been able to iron out, I believe there was a drug deal or the anticipation of a drug deal set up for July 13. I think that’s what brought many of these parties together, that’s why Anthony Melendez wanted to return to Waco that Tuesday afternoon, that’s why Clifford got up with David Spence and unfortunately it’s what made Jill and Raylene take that fateful trip to Waco that day. what I can’t really put together is whom was the party or parties responsible for putting this deal together and/or if there was an ulterior motive planned before hand. Did Deeb hear about this deal going down and that Kenneth Franks was going to be involved and thought this was his chance to get even? Or did Deeb set up this deal with the intention to draw in Kenneth Franks? Or is it possible a third party planned the deal, Deeb became aware of the deal and that Kenneth Franks was planning to be apart of this deal and Deeb informed this third party how Kenneth had done him wrong and shouldn’t deal with him, again leaving the door open for Deeb to get his revenge? I feel all three are possible scenarios, I lean towards the later the reason being what we know or at least what has been reported about Jill’s last couple days at home.
I always go back to Clifford Oliver as the third party involved, I think he might have been the one that set up some kind of deal with Kenneth Franks. I would guess they met at the pool hall Pinocchio’s an establishment both Kenneth and Clifford frequented. Clifford told his friend David Spence about this planned deal, maybe asking him if he wanted to take part and Spence told Deeb and this is when Deeb decided to get even but still at this point I’m not short if Deeb’s plan was to kill anyone maybe he would just be happy getting his money back maybe getting Kenneth roughed up. I think Clifford was informed that Kenneth owed Deeb money again probably from Spence and told he shouldn’t deal with Kenneth until he fixes thing with Deeb. And I feel this is where Jill comes in.
Mrs Thompson, I will just be going by what’s in the police reports about what was said by Jill’s mother, I don’t know if it’s true I believe it is, you will know better. And I would like to add I’ve had this theory for a very long time, your insight about what Jill’s mother only strengthens my belief. Jill’s mother told police Kenneth called Sunday night, Jill wasn’t home, she wasn’t sure if they talked later that evening, Kenneth stated he would call back at 8:00pm. Jill’s mother wasn’t sure if he did. Jill’s mother also said that Jill had asked her about what should she do when she was in love with some one that she knew wasn’t good for her, they are not the exact words but the essence of her question I think we understand what she is asking. I think this also happened on Sunday night. Jill’s mother said after that Jill just mopped around and wouldn’t talk, this would have been the rest of that Sunday night and the next day Monday the day before she left to go to Waco. Another thing Jill’s mother said was Jill and Raylene made their plans to go to Waco either that Sunday night or Monday morning. That’s what is in the police reports.
Here’s my theory: Jill and Kenneth did talk Sunday night, Kenneth explained the situation to Jill and she agreed to help him, this is why she made the comment or asked that question to her mother. After talking to Kenneth Jill made the arrangements to get to Waco July 13 with Raylene. Jill had serious doubts about what she was going to do, again I think that explains how she was acting the days or Sunday night and Monday before she left for Waco. But what was she planning to do, how was she going to help Kenneth Franks? Was she just going to take part in the drug deal or front the money for Kenneth Franks? I don’t think so, I feel her part was going to fix the existing problem with Muneer Deeb, pay Deeb back for the bad deal that went down before so Kenneth to make this other deal, well at least he thought so. That’s why Deeb told Dana Diamond that Jill and Raylene had been at his store that day and that he thought Gayle was going to be with the girls. This might also explain why Jill and Kenneth didn’t get up with each other until much later in the evening than doing so when Jill first got to town. Jill was planning to take care of this herself, go to Deeb without Kenneth Franks, she did n’t get up with Kenneth until after she went to Deeb but Deeb had other plans by then, he wanted to deal with Kenneth Franks and Gayle Kelly in person, he made Jill aware of this and she let Deeb know she would get up with them so this problem could be taking care of, not knowing what she was walking into. This is why Deeb thought Gayle would be with Jill, Raylene and Kenneth and now that he thought he was going to have Gayle and Kenneth in one place he set into motion his plan, informing David Spence. After Jill went to Deeb and couldn’t take care of things she called Kenneth Franks and explained to him Deeb wanted to deal with him personally and they got together, Kenneth still planning for a big drug deal to go down. Getting back to Clifford Oliver, I think he was still planning to make the deal but then he got wind that something else was going to go down, this might explain why his car was vandalized at Midway Park, Clifford was all in for making a drug deal, he was having problems with his wife, he was having financial problems he could use the money but he didn’t want to take part in what David Spence and his cohorts were talking about doing. Some kind of altercation took place between Spence and Clifford this is when his car was damaged but in the end he and David were friends and David knew he won’t talk or go to the police so Clifford takes off and he and David plan to get up later after everything goes down, this is why Clifford looked up David Spence at 2am that night. That sets the stage for Spence with the Melendez brothers to meet up with Jill, Raylene and Kenneth in the park. Jill, Raylene and Kenneth didn’t get into David’s car just to run up to the store to grab some beer, David Spence could help them fix things up with Deeb and he could still make the drug deal. We can only imagine what happened after that and I really don’t want to think about that. All I would say is with the number of shallow stab wounds, there was some torture involved, in it’s totality this was a time consuming crime, why did the killers fill the need to torture their victims, I think they were looking for something or some one; Gayle Kelly, some one the killers expected to be there, she definitely was still a target for some time after the murders.
Mrs. Thompson that’s the gist of my theory, I admit as with most theories it has holes and weaknesses but going by what I’ve read this just seems to be the most plausible. Again any critiques, criticisms, remarks and insights are more than welcomed.
Last week I was going over the Smiths involved with this case, I needed to add a couple things but keep getting side tracked, but discussing Karen Hoskins made me think about it again. The description she gave for one of the guys in the boat, 5-7, 160-170, curly brown hair, again sounds like she see describing Bennie or Daniel Smith.
I forgot to add Judge Walter Smith, he was the judge that lived on the same street as Mr. Franks and he kept up with the case, calling the police to get information and relaying that information to Mr. Franks. Also there was one of the guys that discovered the bodies Sydney Smith. On the surface everything looks on the up and up with Sydney Smith but he had a red and white Ford pick up truck. He told police he had gone fishing at Speegleville Park July 13 as well as July 14 when he discovered the bodies. Sydney Smith said he got home I think about 9:30pm on July 13, some one told police, for some reason I think it was Terry Barrett, I will have to look this up, saw a red and white Ford pick up coming into Koehne Park around 10:00pm the night of July 13. The reason Barrett comes to mind is because he is also the guy that told police he saw the girls in the Pinto at the park at 6:45pm and a Blue Chevy pulled up next to the girls and talked to them for a few minutes then left. Barrett had parked on the other side of the Pinto so he got a good look at the driver of the Blue Chevy his description a white male 19 yoa, brown hair, fair complexion. Compare that with the description Glenda Mailly gave for Daniel Smith, that had walked up behind her at Koehne Park in March and had a Blue Grand Prix, I know a Grand Prix is a Pontiac and not a Chevy, but Ms. Mailly’s description; 20 yoa, 5-7, 130, brown curly hair, fair complexion. And compare that to the description Debbie Cunningham gives of the stranger that was standing behind the truck she was in and then walked up to window but then ran off, this was at the boat ramp area of Koehne Park the night of July 13; early 20’s, 5-8, 150, no facial hair. Karen Hoskins Description of one of the guys she saw in the boat running without lights and pulling up at Midway Park July 13, 5-7, 160-170, curly brown hair medium length. And Kim Lauderdale’s description of Bennie Smith, he had a two tone Tan Monte Carlo that he abandoned at an apartment complex and again another car reported as being seen at Koehne Park July 13; 19 or 20 yoa, actually he was a little older, slender build, curly brown hair. Were these witnesses describing the same subject?
Mrs Thompson could you give me the physical description of Tab Harper and Clifford Oliver?
On the physical condition of Harper, I saw a picture of him with 4 of his friends. F Dannen had the snapshot and showed it to us at the “family meeting”. I cannot remember C Olivers description.
I only saw the picture of Harper once and that was 15 years ago.
And while I’m playing the name game was there any relationship between Clifford Oliver and the Mrs. Oliver that was the manager of the Ivy Square Apartments and told the police the girls, Jill and Raylene stopped by between 2pm and 3pm asking about getting an apartment. this may explain the reason the girls were carrying so much cash, over $600 if everybody is believed that told police the girls cashed checks; Joyce Breiten at the Piggly Wiggly stated both girls cashed ckecks Jill $226 and Raylene $200 and the manager from the Waxahachie Safeway told police Jill had cashed a check for $200. Was she correct that it was Jill and Raylene? Thinking about how some people have said Jill and Gayle looked alike did Mrs. Ivy mix up the two girls.
Mrs Thompson I guess this would be something you could shed some light on. In your opinion or by knowing what was going on in Jill’s life at that time does it make sense that she was looking for an apartment in Waco? Everything I’ve read about Jill at that time was she was happy to be back home, happy to be a Senior at Waxahachie the up coming school year, she had applied for a job I think a Bar-B-Que place; Rip’s Ribs or something like that. Does that sound like someone that was just going to get up and move back to Waco? Compared to Gayle Kelly that was a run away, lost her job at Fort Fisher, lost the apartment and job offer from Muneer Deeb. Mrs. Ivy said the girl told her she was hoping to get a job to pay the rent, Gayle Kelly would go to work at IHOP around that time.
Did Mrs. Ivy mix up the two girls, remember she also told police that the two girls talked to three boys that were runaways from the Methodist Home. she had heard this from Linda Fuqua that rented one of the apartments and worked at the Methodist Home. Did the Police ever talk to Linda Fuqua? Did Mrs Ivy hear from Linda that the runaway boys and the girls talking to them were from the Home and heard that the victims of the murders had lived at the Home and mistakenly put the two and two together that the girls that came looking for an apartment were also from the Methodist Home and were the victims and again did a similarity between Jill and Gayle add to this?
Yesterday I posted Terry Barrett saw a red and white Ford truck came into Koehne Park about 10:00pm July 13, I know I wasn’t sure it was Mr. Barrett and of coarse it wasn’t it was Candyce Satterwhite and actually I found this pretty easily which is rare when I’m looking for some piece of information I know I have read before. The reason being because I was already looking at Candyce Satterwhite’s statements and Hypnosis session for something else. Anyway she is the one that reported the truck coming into the park. What I was more interested in and was I was looking for when I came across this was what she said while she was under hypnosis, I thought she had said something very interesting. Here is what I thought was interesting Ms. Satterwhite says she and her boy friend David Pearcy parked between the Pinto and the white work truck. The Pinto was to the right of them and the work truck to the left of them. Everybody knows the truck she is talking about that is parked to her left is Charles Ramsey’s truck, everybody that was at Koehne Park that night saw that truck. I would add that’s why anyone that couldn’t remember seeing that truck or the yellow car or as in some cases any other vehicles that were at the park you have to doubt, this would include people like Rusty Escott, Kathy Prochnow, Kenny Young. Anybody would know the the orange Pinto was there, that was all over the news and in the papers but if some one said that’s the only car they remember seeing you have to question it, not so much because they are not telling the truth though I think in many cases they were lying but even if what they are telling you is true if they can’t add any other details about other vehicles or people in the park they aren’t helping. You need witnesses that can corroborate other witnesses statements and there were plenty of those, you shouldn’t waste your time on those that can’t. But here’s what is interesting about what Candyce had to say.
She remembered; it looked like the blonde hair girl was coming from the truck that was directly behind the Pinto. Officer Luedke whom wrote the report on this hypnosis session states she’s talking about the white truck she had been talking about earlier which would have been Charles Ramsey’s truck but this can’t be the case Charles Ramsey’s truck was parked to the left of Ms. Satterwhite, she is talking about a truck that is parked behind the Pinto that is parked to the right of her they can’t be the same truck . What truck is she talking about?
I usually don’t use information I read from Carlton Stowers’ book, there are way too many inaccuracies, you can pick just about any page in that book and find something that’s not right or not true and Mr. Stowers was friends with Ned Butler so his view is slanted, so did Mr. Stowers just use some creative writing to tell a good story or did he intentionally bend the facts? Still his book is a good reference to get an overall view of the case and he does offer information I haven’t found anywhere else. And this would be the case with Eugene Deal.
Eugene Deal was David Spence’s parole officer starting in October 1981 when Spence was paroled after serving time for the robbery of the 7-11 he committed. I don’t know the exact date Spence was released but I don’t think it could have been too long before he had a parole officer, I think making contact with his parole officer would have had to be one of the first things he had to do upon his release. Maybe not a big issue but if this was in October 1981 it is another thing that puts Christine Juhl’s stated timeline into question. She testified she met Spence in August 1981 and moved in with him August 18, 1981, that would be impossible if he was still in jail.
But that’s not the issue I’m getting into with this post, there are a plethora of issues with Christine Juhl which will receive their own fair share of post. No this post has to deal with whom did Mr. Deal talk to when he called police in August 1982 when he started to believe David Spence either had information about or was involved with the Lake Murders? It’s not in the police reports, he did testify that he called the police and on more than one occasion but doesn’t state whom he talked with. And this is where Mr. Stowers’ book comes into play. According to his book Mr. Deal called the police and talked to Ramon Salinas. As Mr. Deal obtained more information from people like Spence’s mother Mr. Deal continued to try to call and talk to Salinas but could only leave messages, Salinas never returned the calls. Mr. Deal, per the book, says he tried to call 3 more times between the first time he talked to Salinas and when Spence was arrested for the sexual assault on September 9, when he did get to talk to Salinas, but Salinas seemed only interested in the assault charge and didn’t even inform Mr. Deal that the Lake Waco Murders case was suspended and/or that he was no longer actively investigating that case. Mr. Deal says Salinas was never interested in what he had to say, including the first time he talked to him.
I know I regularly criticize Detective Ramon Salinas, honestly it’s just too hard not to. Mr. Stowers’ book also doesn’t view Salinas in a very positive light. Here’s my question, is this true did Eugene Deal talk to Ramon Salinas in August 1982 and tell him about David Spence and Salinas just ignored it? As I’ve pointed out repeatedly I have seen in many articles Salinas state he never saw or heard or found anything that pointed to David Wayne Spence, well if you are just going to ignore any and all information you got about him I guess it is possible but get real!!! If what Mr. Stowers has written is true that means, Salinas was made aware of the friction that existed between Kenneth Franks and Muneer Deeb on July 19 and did nothing and Mr. Deal told him about David Wayne Spence in August and again Salinas did nothing. Can anyone even try to reasonably explain this? It would be interesting to hear from Ramon Salinas but I know that will never happen, he’s busy trying to re-write history in the papers. Very disappointing, I can only hope Waco Texas has better police officers now!!!
It would be interesting for you to talk to R Salinas. I know from personal experience that Truman Simons worked almost full time with Carlton Stowers while writing Careless Whispers. In other words , I would dare say that T Simons’ feelings toward Salinas is what came out in the book, moreso than Stowers’. Simons told me more than once that Salinas was just an”ignorant Mexican”.
And to keep all my information away from him. That could be taken two ways. I took it that Simons and Salinas did not want to share evidence or info about the case. My personal feelings were , if they had worked together, we would be in a better “place” right now !
Mrs. Thompson I totally agree with you about what better results or answers we would have now if there was more cooperation between the officers in the Waco PD, unfortunately I feel there was a cancer growing within that department that wasn’t exposed until this case. I would love to talk to Salinas, I have so many questions and I would be respectful with my inquiries, remember my father was a state trooper for 25 years I understand how difficult the job can be and how outsiders can judge harshly only seeing things through the spectrum of a narrow glimpse and I admit I myself might be a little guilty of this.
Today marks the awful 34th anniversary of one the most senseless and brutal crimes in American history. Unfortunately for a case that brings so much into question about our country’s justice system; e.g. the death penalty, the use of convict’s statements as evidence, bite-mark evidence, confessions and the deals that are made, so little national attention as been focused on this horrendous tragedy. For those victims and the living victims that will never be able to forget we should asking and questioning and keep the search for the truth alive, I know I will I wish I could find others!!!
I know things have been quiet for way too long but I was trying to work on something that needed to be handled delicately, not me just getting on here and ranting about it. In the end the results were the same another path to nowhere. This is what I don’t get, I know many people believe the wrong people were convicted for this crime but when it comes down to finding anything that could substantially support this there is nothing. Hey I believe the right guys were convicted but I’ve been willing to look and listen to those that have a different view and time after time all I can find is when you put the best information out there it points to those that were convicted as the most likely guilty parties to this horrible crime. Does anybody have anything to disprove this? I still have questions, more so about the investigation than determining some one’s guilt or innocence. One question I have is if there are people out there that have answers to a different truth than that which we have been told why don’t those people ever say anything? I know there are different sides out there, all stories have multiple sides but the truth only has one side!!! Why does it seem so many people have a problem with that?
C. I think I found a little piece of information that could help explain things but as with everything or anybody I talk to, you don’t know what to believe. If some one tells me something now I honestly just can’t take it as the truth, I need to be able to verify it find something that can corroborate the information I find and that can be very difficult.
You now my feeling has always been the police missed a vital connection with this case, mainly the girls from the Methodist Home knew David Spence. With the state making the case of mistaken identity they never tried to find this connection. I feel Gayle Kelly knew David much more than she testified to and I also feel Jill Montgomery probably knew David as well, too many of the girls from the Home knew him, it just seems unbelievable that Jill wouldn’t have known him also. For the interesting piece of information I got. I must admit I believed, by going by what we have been told, the girls from the Home met David at the store, The girl I talked to said she met David before the store opened. She said they all skipped school and went to a party at the lake and that’s where she met David. If this is the case it would show the girls had some connection to David before the store or before Christine Juhl worked at the store, apparently the reason David hung out at the store in the first place. I think this could help explain some things. But the girl I talked to wouldn’t come off anymore information and then when I pressed her on it she no longer wanted to talk to me. Now I’m trying some different avenues.
On Mr. Franks, that’s just a hard one to try to figure out and unfortunately now we will never know. But if that one article is right, which I told you I would have to question, it would seem Mr. Franks would have been drunk or intoxicated when the police arrived to the park on the morning of July 14, he did have a reputation at least among Kenneth’s friend’s as a hard drinker, couldn’t the police officer detect this? And if he did why didn’t he do something about it? At least take him to the station for a few hours.
This is certainly an interesting case…I hope to read more interesting comments from ones in the know…Maybe by talking about it, they will achieve some sort of closure and/or inner peace after all these years.
I guess I will share that article CC and I are talking about, well at least part of it. It’s a great article and it states that the writer received a call from a slightly drunk Mr. Franks one night when his son was missing. Kenneth, Jill and Rayleye were only missing one night, so if he got a call from Mr. Franks that night, that would lead to some serious questions. Now the problem with the article is it also states that they waited for days to hear anything about the missing kids but there was nothing. That isn’t true the bodies of the kids were discovered the next day. So did this call really happen and if it did was it the night the kids went missing or after their bodies had been found? If it happened the night the kids went missing when was it, Mr. Franks was out until after midnight, one of the many things he failed to inform the police the next morning, he went out between 2a.m. and 3a.m. to try to find the kids and then did this again around 6a.m. at which time he called the police, so when did he make this call to the reporter? Here is what the journalist says, this is only part of the article 30 Years Later – Remembering The Horrific Triple Murder At Lake Waco – January 9, 2012
It gets creepier
It got creepier when I received a late-night call from Kenneth Franks’ dad.
He sounded slightly drunk and emotionally washed out. It was a long, slow, weird, rambling conversation, mainly about him thinking that something really bad had happened to his son and the girls.
The conversation left me with a very uneasy feeling, unlike anything I’d ever felt before. Something cold and unnerving. A feeling that lingered and prompted me to have a long conversation with my editor.
We decided not to publish a story about the call — after all, what could it say other than a distraught father had called the paper and rambled about his missing son? We also decided not to pass on the information to police, though I did write up comprehensive notes about the phone call, just in case.
In the following days, we all waited for a break in the case — for the kids to turn up “one way or another”. But there was no a break.
For those that don’t know, Occam’s Razor is the problem solving principle that states; the simplest solution and the one with the least number of assumptions is usually the correct solution. Now with any homicide case there are some number of assumptions that inevitably will have to be made, it’s the nature of the beast, though the victims can provide us with so much information they always leave questions that they can no longer answer and usually they leave us with more questions than answers. That’s why I like the axiom; The police don’t believe in coincidences. Let’s look at a couple things about this case.
The story that has been told at least my the Melendez brothers was that these murders were a spur of the moment act, David Spence acted offensive towards Jill Montgomery and things spiraled out of control from there. Is there anything out there that could help sustain this one way or the other? I would say the shallow stab wounds on both Jill and Kenneth Franks argue against this, those wounds look like they were made to cause pain not to kill; torture. That’s a lot different from some one getting mad, snapping or going off and butchering some one. So that points me in the direction that these murders weren’t a spur of the moment act. Which would bring me to the next question; is there anything else out there that could help sustain this view? That’s when we run into Occam’s assumptions and the questioning of coincidences.
When the Waco Police first interviewed Jill’s mother she told them that Kenneth had called Jill on Sunday night. Sometime later that night Jill asked her what do you do when you’re in love with some one that you know is bad for you. Unfortunately in hindsight Jill’s mother wasn’t happy with the answer she gave her daughter and it was the last real or at least the attempt at a real conversation she would have with her daughter. She would tell police after that Jill seemed depressed, she just moped around, she wouldn’t talk, it seemed something was worrying Jill, surely something was wrong. We will never know exactly what Jill was thinking about and we can’t say it had anything to do with her murder. It just as easily could be explained as typical teenage emotional peaks and valleys. But if Jill was having worries about something to do with returning to Waco Sunday night and Monday, that would also point towards the crimes not being done on the spur of the moment. Then there is another piece of information that points toward the kids having a feeling something was wrong. This time it has to do with Kenneth Franks.
Kenneth Franks had left his keys stuffed into the back seat of the Pinto. Mr. Franks, Kenneth’s father, said he had told Kenneth if he was in some kind of trouble to stash his keys, that way no one could get into the house or steal his bike. I know that’s a very strange statement kind of hard to believe, some one telling their child if they are in danger to lose their keys. Don’t know what to make of that but the keys were found stuffed in the back seat, so if it is true that Mr. Franks told Kenneth this, it shows that Kenneth felt he was in some kind of trouble before he got out of the car. But if he thought he was in some trouble why leave the car or the park? Another question that we will never be able to answer. But what we can take from these two statements is that the parents of two of the victims said their kids both gave signs before hand that something was wrong, more a feeling or emotional in Jill’s case and a physical sign, stashing his keys, in Kenneth’s case. Is this just a mere coincidence or is it a key to telling us so much more?
Whom and when did Jill’s check stubs get thrown outside???
Four of Jill’s pay check stubs were found lying outside between the car and the picnic table, how did they get there and whom was responsible for this? Maybe a better question would be where did Jill keep these check stubs. It makes sense she had one check stub with her she went to Waco to pick up her last check and she had cast that. It reasonable to think she could have said,” Hey Raylene can I put this in your glove compartment so I don’t lose it”. I don’t see anybody carrying around four pay check stubs loosely and I don’t see any reason that she needed them that day for anything but she definitely had them. That leads me to believe she would have carried them in her pocketbook, makes sense to me. The girls pocketbooks were never found. So whom took the pocketbooks and when? I guess the obvious answer to the question of whom is the killers but when?
If the killers were trying to find something or rob the girls prior to the girls leaving with them and the killers went through their pocketbooks at this time and the pay check stubs ended up on the ground at that time, wouldn’t have anybody that was at the park at the time seen this? The police interviewed about 20 people that were at the park that night, not one of them mentioned seeing anything like this. And if the girls were being robbed or getting a hard time with some one why would they leave with them? Just make a scene there where enough people around to intervene. If that scenario wasn’t the case did the killers return after the murders, if so when? I can’t see the killers returning right after committing the murders, they would have been bloody and if they went into the car afterwards wouldn’t they have left blood somewhere in or on that car? None was never found. Maybe the killers returned much later, like after they went and got cleaned up? David Spence did return to the park with Clifford Oliver the next morning, is this when they grabbed the pocketbooks? This sounds possible but Gilbert Melendez testified that David handed him some money, apparently some of the money he had taken from the girls, when Gilbert dropped him off that night. If this is true that would mean the killers would have already gotten the money from the girls before David and Clifford returned the next morning, why would they go through the pocketbooks after that?
Then we have Mr. Franks going through the car trying to find contact information to call the girls’ parents sometime that night or early morning. Did he go through the pocketbooks while he was rummaging through the car trying to find information and that’s when the pay checks ended up on the ground? If this was the case and Jill had kept her check stubs in her pocketbook, which I think is very probable, that means the pocketbooks were still there when Mr. Franks went through the car. So where did they go after that, when were they removed and whom removed them? Just another thing that I’ve always wondered about, I feel the answer to that could hold the key that could help unlock the truth.
The questions are still there for me. My one desire has always been to know the true story of that day and night in Waco, Texas. Anthony Melendez suffered for quite a long time and he has now met his Maker and has had his final judgement. If it be His will, the truth will be known. I will depend on that !
Similar to Careless Whispers ?? So many readers of this True Crime Book have considered it as the “TRUE STORY”. Some folks however, consider it the scenario created by Truman Simon’s to allow HIM to solve and close this case. As far as I am concerned, I do not believe there is a book by Fredric Dannen.
“IF” the conclusion to this 35 year old case does come with the passing of Anthony Melendez………there should be no further delays with Fredric Dannen revealing his “Mystery Book”. I understand that Mr. Dannen told the Family of Anthony “the book should be out in a couple of weeks”. PROBLEM: He told them this approximately nine months ago.
It is my opinion that Mr. Dannen needs to come outof his “safe place” and explain his actions since 1997. ie; BOOK? OR NO BOOK? DNA OR NO DNA? TAPES OR NO TAPES? PROOF OF ORIGINAL SUSPECT GUILT OR NO PROOF?…….the TRUTH is simple !!
Mrs. Thompson, unfortunately I don’ think the passing of Anthony Melendez is the conclusion of this case it’s just the end of another sad chapter. As you know I don’t put much faith in Mr. Dannen nor his book. That’s why I posted what Gayle Kelly had to say about it, You know Gayle and I don’t see eye to eye on most aspects of this murder other than those that were convicted are guilty, our thoughts on Mr. Dannen’s book also are in line with each other.
Keeping up with the case as much as you do, I know you still see all the differing thoughts, theories and beliefs that remain. I just look at the things that have been put out there since Anthony’s passing and for most part good points good arguments but in the end inconclusive. I know I’m a little bias because I believe David Spence, Muneer Deeb, Gilbert Melendez and Anthony Melendez are guilty but to find the truth we have to listen to all sides, take in all the stuff that is out there and when we do we are left with questions. Question that still need to be answered.
In the last few days I have seen the view that the murders took place at Speegleville Park. Maybe but the one big question that the people that believe can never answer is; if the kids were killed where they were found, there would have been some blood splatter and/or spray there is none, you would also expect to see some kind of blood trail as blood would have dripped from whatever weapon was used, neither of these are present at Speegleville. People will argue there was none found at Koehne either which is true but remember the police didn’t become aware of area the murders took place until December, five months later, the weather over those five months would have cleared any outdoor crime sight. The police were at Speegleville Park within 24 hours from the last time anyone saw the kids, in that time frame you would still expect to find this evidence not 5 months later. And people question the Koehne site even though one of the Melendez brothers pointed it out, they argue that was some of Truman Simons’ work. Again could be but what about the other people that pointed out the same area? You know I’m talking about Clifford Oliver’s girlfriend Josie and the Windhams. Are all these people lying? That I just can’t believe. Somewhere along the line we have to believe somebody.
The other day some one brought up James Russell Bishop, I hadn’t heard that name in a long time. He was an interesting suspect much better than Terry “Tab” Harper the suspect Fred Dannen is pushing. But in the end it’s the same thing there is nothing to tie him to the murder zero evidence. Yes he committed a similar crime 7 months later in California but the differences in that crime are more telling. Two points that have been put forward by those that believe Bishop committed the murders, one that he took off shortly after the murders and went to California. Again this is true but Mrs. Thompson we know there were a number of people that took off to California shortly after the murders that had a much more clear connection, of coarse I’m talking about Clifford Oliver and Terry Gutierrez. And there could have been another reason Bishop went to California his baby daughter lived there, that is where Bishop lived when he first went to California.
I also see people say the kids were kidnapped, again there is no evidence to this. There are those that say Bishop kidnapped them at gunpoint and then tied them up, like he did the two girls in California. A couple major problems with this, out of all the people the police talked to that were at the Koehne Park that night no one saw anything even remotely close to this. People will say well nobody saw them leave either which is true but that was probably because there was nothing to draw their attention to the kids because nothing out of the ordinary was going on like being held at gun point and tied up. Not saying that is impossible but when there is a lack of concrete indisputable evidence you have to look at the whole spectrum of possibilities and think about which is most probable, Occam’s razor. No one saw anything because there was nothing to see, no kidnapping, no weapons, no one getting tied up. As many law officers from many different agencies have stated it’s extremely rare that a stranger that was just looking for victims would have picked up two girls with a guy, that usually doesn’t happen, they would pick up girls that were alone or without a male being present just like Bishop did in California. The parks around Lake Waco presented plenty of opportunity for some one looking to abduct girls unaccompanied with a male.
Then there’s the fact that Bishop was a gun man, the Lake Waco murder victims were butcher with a knife, though that may seem like a small thing to most, there is a difference. And there is one piece of evidence that is very telling, Jill Montgomery had defensive wounds on her right hand, she had grabbed the blade as she was being stabbed. That tells us her hands were untied when the attack began. And maybe this alone create more doubts that Bishop did this more than anything else. The defensive wound to Jill’s hand proves she was resisting before her hands were tied, the first question would be when would this have been? If you were going to resist wouldn’t you resist while you were out in the open around other people at the park, you wouldn’t wait until your abductor got you alone. If this would have happened at the park people would have seen this. Again Bishop was a gun man, so what he was holding a gun on three people and fighting one with a knife? Maybe possible but extremely unlikely and again did this in a park where there were about a dozen people around at any time. Just for argument Bishop somehow was able to get the kids in the truck without causing a scene, he walked up to them pulled out his gun and the kids just walked to his truck with him without doing anything that would have drawn anybody’s attention, Jill’s hands still cannot be tied up at this point. How were the kids seated in the truck, all 3 in the cab, all 3 in the back of the truck? Problems either way. How do you control 3 victims and still drive or drive and hold a gun on all 3 victims. And we can’t forget the knife because that is the telling fact, again the defensive wound occurred before Jill’s hands were tied. So Bishop was driving the kids away, holding a gun and a knife, again not very likely. I could keep going on and on about all the unlikely scenarios, and that’s what makes Bishop the unlikely killer the problems or questions that a theory of a single killer present far outweigh the possible probabilities of a single killer, especially some one that was a gun man not a knife man. Could some one have helped Bishop. that’s a whole nother possibility, one I really don’t think I’ve seen brought forward before Bishop was a loner.
I know people can argue the counter points to everything I have said and do it well and I think all sides should be heard. But that is why there is no conclusion to this case 35 years later, still way too many questions.
The difference between wanting something to be true and proving something is true, it seems a lot of people have a problem understanding this. Just because something is said in court doesn’t mean it’s true, people aren’t suppose to lie, that’s perjury, but they do. Sometimes people just get mixed up, it happens. But when testimony or evidence is introduced that contradicts what some one has said the jury decides if the testimony in question has been impeached. All the testimony from the witness that gives the questionable testimony does not need to be impeached if any of his testimony can be questioned that’s enough. Prime example Calvin Nesbitt and Gilbert Melendez’s truck, taken from the trial transcripts ( as I just stated I won’t go into all his testimony just enough that can be refuted and was, but I will let you be the jury).
For the Defense Mr. Reaves Direct examination of Nesbitt: Okay was the truck in running condition, could you get it going?
Mr. Nesbitt: Not very easy.
Mr. Reaves: Okay do you recall when it was that he (Gilbert Melendez) brought the truck to you?
Mr. Nesbitt: It was, I can’t remember the date but it stayed at my house for about three months.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, do you recall the time period it stayed at your house? Do you have referenced any time that you can tie it to?
Mr. Nesbitt: Well about two months before July and all through July just about.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, how can you, how can you tie it to that time period?
Mr. Nesbitt: Well I usually have a family barbecue every 4th of July.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, did you have one 4th of July 1982?
Mr. Nesbitt: Yes sir.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, Mr. Melendez’s truck there that day?
Mr. Nesbitt: Yes it was there.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, did it stay there, how long it it stay there after that date?
Mr. Nesbitt: Until along towards the last of July.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, what kind of condition was the truck in on the 4th of July?
Mr. Nesbitt: It wasn’t running.
Mr. Reaves: Okay.
Mr. Nesbitt: It had three flats on it.
That’s enough testimony from the Defense and Mr. Nesbitt now let’s see what other people had to say. Richard Sulak, the gentleman that sold Gilbert the truck and his wife also testified. For time and space I won’t repeat the testimony verbatim but you will see the problems with Mr. Nesbitt’s testimony. Mr. Sulak didn’t sell the truck to Gilbert Melendez until July 3, 1982 and he had a notarized Transfer of Title to prove this. Mr. Nesbitt was wrong that Gilbert had brought the truck to him a couple months before July. Mr. and Mrs. Sulak also testified the truck was in running order when they sold the truck, Gilbert took it for a test drive, so it was running the day they sold it.
Mr. Nesbitt had testified the truck had three flat tires but during cross Vic Feazell asked Nesbitt how was the truck brought out to his house. if it was brought out on a trailer. Mr. Nesbitt said no. Veazell asked they drove it with three flat tires. Mr. Nesbitt answered no the tires became flat after it had been sitting there awhile. Mr. Nesbitt seems a little confused at least.
One other little piece of information that came out was during the testimony of Christine Juhl, the girlfriend of David Spence. She stated while she and David were staying at the Northwood Apartments, which she dated between July 10 and July 20th, She and David went out to Speegleville Park with Gilbert and Anthony in Gilbert’s truck. That would show the truck was running around that time.
Nr. Nesbitt would also testified the Gilbert’s stepdad came and got the truck in late July. Gilbert testified his stepfather went and got the truck after he got arrested in September, He was arrested September 9th for the Darvin Pack incident that occurred on September the 5th, which was Labor Day weekend and that could help explain things.
Being nice to Mr. Nesbitt, it’s was two years later when he testified so I won’t say he was trying to intentionally lie but he was definitely mixed up with his facts. He remembers the family barbecue as his point of reference but couldn’t he be mixing up a barbecue on the 4th of July for one during Labor Day weekend?
So did the defense prove the truck wasn’t running on July 13/14 or did the state provide conflicting evidence and testimony that more than adequately raises questions and thus not proven?
To find the truth for anything we have to dismiss the rumors that have been able to persist for so long and are continually perpetrated to this day on the internet and with this life on the internet these rumors live as facts, the truth won’t be found there and it’s sad and pathetic to think after 35 years after these horrendous murders people still spread these rumors as fact. Let’s take a look at the police reports and see what they tell us about Terry “Tab” Harper and the black van. I know I went through this before but as we all know some rumors are harder to kill than others!
The first mention of Tab Harper comes from an unidentified caller on Friday July 16; approximately at 10:30 a.m. The caller tells Officer Mike Nicoletti that he had seen Tab Harper, another subject standing with Harper and a blue van and that they were standing by the victim’s car approximately between 9:00 p.m. and 9:30 p.m. Tuesday July 13. The caller said Harper was responsible for the murders. The police knew Tab Harper he had a record so Nicoletti and Detective Ramon Salinas decide to go pick him up and bring him in for questioning. They take him in front of Judge Joe Johnson, while there the judge receives a call from a known police informant. That informant tells the judge that he had heard from some kids the Tab Harper had committed the murders and there was an eye witness, a young girl Harper had threatened to kill if she said anything and this girl was afraid to come forward.
Nicoletti and Salinas go and talk to this informant he tells them he got this information from his nephew and his nephew had told him he had heard this from a girl at school Leigh Anne. They call the nephew and the nephew tells the officers the same story that he had heard this story from a girl named Leigh Anne, he didn’t know her last name, but she was at summer school at University High School, which becomes the officers next stop.
They find this Leigh Anne to be Leigh Anne Hogeland and go to her home and interview her. When Leigh Anne is asked about the information she had been spreading around school she denies doing so, She is told about the two calls the police have received but she stands by her story, Leigh Anne tells them the only thing she knows about Tab Harper is the kids around Jack’s Stereo and Koehne Park have been saying he is capable of committing this crime and that’s the story going around. She also tells the officers maybe they should talk to John Landers he might have some information. They call John Landers but he tells them he doesn’t know anything but he might know some people that do, he would try to talk to these people and get back to them. I guess I will put this out there now though it doesn’t have anything to do with Tab Harper. John Landers didn’t have information but his brother Henry had been out at the lake the night of July 13/14 with some friends but not at Koehne Park they were at Airport Park and the police were told they had told people they had heard some screams coming from behind the Bass Clubhouse at Airport Park.
All this information can be found in Detectives Salinas’ reports but we also need to look at Officer Mike Nicoletti’s. Yes they will me giving us the same information but each officer gives his own take on it and we have to remember many times they are describing the same incidents, that can be a little confusing, it may look like they are talking about different times and incidents which could give one the view that something happened more times than it did. I see this all the time in reference to Tab Harper, I see people keep saying all these people saw Tab Harper at the park that night which is just not true, many people heard that Tab was at the park that night but all those people got it from the same source. Remember that first call Nicoletti got on July 16th, Salinas rightfully writes in his report that it was an unidentified caller as you will see in Nicoletti’s reports, Nicoletti found out whom that unidentified caller was.
Nicoletti’s report tells us about the same call that Salinas mentions in his report, Nicoleti gives a little more details, which makes sense he is the one that talked to the caller, he just briefed Salinas afterwards. Anyway he tells us pretty much the same story as Salinas, the vital information he adds is this unidentified caller told him he had met this girl, he didn’t give the girl’s name, at Airport Park on Wednesday July 14th and this girl had told him she had talked to Tab Harper earlier that morning and he was asking her if she had heard about the 3 dead bodies found at Speegleville Park. The girl told the anonymous caller that she hadn’t heard anything about any dead bodies nor had the caller until they heard it on the news later. The caller stated he thought it was strange that Tab Harper would have known about it so early and that why he was calling he thought Tab probably had something to do with it. Nicoletti agreed this would be strange if Tab Harper had this information Wednesday morning. The caller added that he was very scared of Harper and his friends.
After this Nicoletti reports getting a second anonymous call later that same day which Salinas does not mention in his reports Nicoletti states he received a second anonymous call approximately at 1:00 p. m., this caller tells him the same story the first call gave but he tells Nicoletti where he heard the story, he heard the story from one Rusty Escott. Nicoletti looks up this Arthur “Rusty” Escott and finds his phone number and address. Approximately at 2:00 p.m. Nicoletti calls Rusty. Mr. Escott seemed to be a little worried that the police had gotten his number and asked Nicoletti how he had gotten his number, Nicoletti asked him what he meant, then Rusty told him he had been the unidentified caller that had called earlier and told about talking to the girl at Airport Park. Rusty tells Nicoletti the same story he had told him when he called before, he saw Tab Harper standing outside his black van talking to another male subject and they were standing beside the orange Pinto and now he gives the name of the girl he talked to at Airport Park; Rebecca, he doesn’t know her last name.
Nicoletti doesn’t say anything about picking up Harper or casing down the other information that day as Salinas does. So this was the beginning of the investigation into Tab Harper. Harper was questioned, he gave a solid alibi that checked out and was released but that didn’t end the interest in him.
Mrs. Thompson, it’s not in the police reports what Tab Harper’s alibi was when he was picked up and released on July 16th. But at that time the officers checked his alibi and found it to be solid, I know over time that fact has diminished. I was going to get into this a little later because it also has to do with Tab Harper being seen at the Lake that night, so I’m getting a little ahead of myself but I definitely want to answer your question. If this was the alibi Harper gave the police on July 16th, then obviously the officers would have had to talk to Harper’s sister and boyfriend to confirm that alibi, that did’t happen. Let me put things in proper order. We start with Harper being picked up and released on July 16th. The first report that shows that the police were looking for Harper’s sister’s boyfriend wasn’t until July 27th, common sense would dictate if the police were still looking for the boyfriend on July 27 they had not found him nor talked to him on July 16th, so he couldn’t have confirmed Harper’s alibi when the police released him. Here’s how this all came about.
On July 27th Mike Nicoletti and Larry Abner make contact with one Derwin “Bubba” Wilkins a known associate of Tab Harper. During their questioning they ask Bubba if he knows Keith Boatman, Mr. Wilkins says yes that Boatman is Harper’s sister’s boyfriend. Wilkins was asked where he was the night of the murders, Wilkins responded he was home watching TV
Mrs. Thompson there is no mention of Boatman in any of the reports prior to that time, that would show the police hadn’t talked to him and would also show there didn’t seem to be any urgency to talk to him until then, which would not have been the case if he was suppose to confirm some one’s alibi 11 days earlier. And when we look at what Wilkins did say and look at the sitting home watching alibi story we clearly see all the elements in Wilkins answers to police. It was Wilkins that said he was home watching TV not Harper and the boyfriend came up in the Wilkins interview. Like so many other things in this case it looks like this is just another thing that has gotten mixed up over time. Not that there is indisputable evidence either way at this point, with what we do know from the police reports I would seriously have to doubt that this was Tab Harper’s alibi on July 16th when he was released by the police.
Next Detective Ramon Salinas received a call Saturday July 17; 9:15 a.m. from a girl named Amy Brown, 17. She does not mention the name Tab Harper but here is the essence of her story she was told by a friend that Rebecca DeMarias had told them that she had been told where 3 dead bodies could be found in Speegleville Park and this was before the news that the bodies had been discovered. Amy Brown couldn’t come up with the name of the friend that had told her this. Of coarse Salinas is very interested in talking to this Rebecca DeMarias, she must be the Rebecca Rusty had told Nicoletti about, but Ms. Brown informs him no one can find her, she’s afraid to come forward for fear of retaliation. That was the story told by Amy Brown, That is all very tantalizing, some one knew about the murders before the authorities knew there was a murder and now this person is missing sounds like we have the makings of a case. But cool your jets a couple things need to be pointed out. Amy Brown is giving information she received second handed as the other callers had done except for Rusty Escott. Nor had they been at the park. Amy didn’t witness any of this herself and she can’t even give the name of the person that told her, so at this point all this is at best is hearsay and also a little troubling. Why wouldn’t Amy Brown give the name of the person that gave her this information? She was concerned enough to call. Though the answer is not clearly written in the report it is there. Teenagers and high school are the breeding ground for rumors, stories go around and they change as they spread. The police would realize this in time as we will see but this was the best lead they had at the time so they had to track it down and they did. And I will add at this time, this is the most troubling thing about this rumor, the police did spend so much time on this and in doing so left other leads and information not followed up and they are suppose to follow up all leads and information. Two leads they failed to follow up have done so much damage to this case. Lisa Kader came into the police department on July 19th and told them Muneer “Lucky” Deeb had killed Kenneth Franks because of Gayle Kelly, this is also in the police reports. Gene Deal, David Spence’s parole officer also has stated he called the police department multiple times and told them that he had a parolee named David Wayne Spence that had told him he had information about the murders. The police did absolutely nothing with either of these leads until Truman Simons and Dennis Baier took over the case on September 10 after the Waco Police Department had suspended the case. But they spent so much time tracking down the Tab Harper.
On Monday July 19 Detective Salinas found Rebecca DeMarias, I would repeat this is the same day Kisa Kader came into the police station and stated Muneer Deeb killed Kenneth Franks because of Gayle Kelly, she talked to Officer Nicoletti and the information Ms. Kader gave can be found in his report, the information that was never followed up! Salinas ann Sargent Fortune pick up Rebcca DeMarias and bring her to the police station for an interview. They share with her the information they have received, in short that they had been told by multiple sources, never mentioning that they received this from Rusty Escott and that Rusty had told them that he had talked to Rebecca Wednesday before anyone was aware there had been any murders. They told her they had been told that she had talked to Tab Harper Wednesday morning about the bodies being found. Rebecca said this wasn’t true she didn’t talk to Tab Harper until she went to Airport Park that evening, approximately at 8:30 p.m. and she could give them names of other people that were there. This put a huge whole in the case that Tab Harper knew about the murders Wednesday morning. But at this point whom could they believe Rusty Escott or Rebecca DeMarias? They chose to believe Rusty Escott, you would have to ask them why. Later that day Salinas checks out her story with some of the names she has given them. They confirm what Rebecca has told him but he still doesn’t believe her. Again Salinas questions Rebecca about this and tells her he got the information from 3 or 4 different sources that she talked to Tab Harper before noon on Wednesday morning, Rebecca repeats she never talked to Tab Harper on Wednesday morning. So this was the status of the case against Tab Harper at this time, maybe Salinas and Nicoletti or some other officers should have let this go for now and look into some other things like interview Muneer Deeb but they decided to try to prove Rebecca DeMarias was lying, with that Salinas set up a lie detector test for Rebecca DeMarias.
The next day Tuesday July 20, Salinas has set up the lie detector test for Rebecca DeMarias but before the test he decides to recontact Leigh Anne Hogeland, he calls her to find out if it was Rebecca that Leigh Anne had talked to. Leigh Anne admitted it was Rebecca she had talked to. Upon further questioning she states she knew Rebecca and had run into her at the Town West Center on Valley Mills at approximately at 7:30 p. m. on Wednesday July 14 and this is when Rebecca had told her this. This would contradict what Rebecca and her friends said. Again it becomes a question of whom to believe. There were already people supporting Rebecca’s chains of events. Leigh Anne tells Salinas that there was another girl with her; Gayla Scott. Salinas and Fortune go to the home of Gayla Scott and ask her about the night in question. Ms. Scott tells them yes she was with Leigh Anne that night but she doesn’t remember anybody talking about any dead bodies being found at Speegleville Park and though there were a lot of kids there that night she doesn’t remember seeing a girl matching the description of Rebecca DeMarias. Call me crazy but if some girl would have come up to me and a friend and started talking about 3 dead bodies and then within 12 hours the story of 3 murdered teens came out I would have remembered that! Gayla Scott could not confirm Leigh Anne’s version of events.
But the results of the lie detector test only clouded the issue even more. Sargent Sherrell, the officer that administered the test advised the results showed Rebecca had not run a true chart but he could not determine if she was lying to all the questions pertaining to the murders or if she was deadly afraid of something. Following this Salinas decides to interview Leigh Anne Hogeland again this time with her father. July 21 Mr. Hogeland brings Leigh Anne to the police station and Salinas interviews both, Leigh provides no further information. One week after the murders and into the investigation this is all the information the police had gotten on Tab Harper being at the park the night the kids went missing, one person: Rusty Escott has stated he was in the park that night and saw Tab Harper. I won’t get into the more that a dozen other people that stated they were at the park and could give the police more information about the other cars and people they had seen there, something Rusty could never do, and never saw Tab Harper or a black van, but their names and stories are also in the reports.
I would also add on July 20 Gayle Kelly came into the police station with Patti Deis to report that Patti’s apartment had been broken into. Ms. Kelly would be interviewed by officer Mike Nicoletti among others and he would ask her about Rebecca DeMarias and Tab Harper. Gayle would tell him DeMarias sold drugs at the high school on several occasions and that Kenneth liked partying with Tab Harper because he always had good stuff. She added that Kenneth had problems with the bikers and any dealings he had with the bikers was when he was making deals with Rebecca DeMarias. Nicoletti failed to ask Gayle Kelly anything about the information he had received the day before from Lisa Kader about Muneer Deeb!
I would talk to him, if I could find a way to contact him. But to be honest I’m not sure if Mr. Salinas would like to answer my questions but I would try, I will talk to anybody I can!!!
Continuing on the Tab Harper investigation, picking up things where they stood after the first week into the investigation which ended with a final interview with Leigh Anne Hogeland and are father, Larry, on July 21. Salinas and Nicoletti got off the Tab Harper story for one day, July 22 and checked out some other information the police had received up to that time. But on the morning of July 23, approximately at 8:15 a. m. Salinas got a call from some one he had talked to on July 16, this was Scott Johnson. On the 16th Scott really didn’t have much to say, he was at the park Tuesday night and his friend had come looking for him and when the news of the murders came out his girlfriend had mentioned to him that she remembered seeing the orange pinto, Scott had called to tell police that his girl friend might be able to provide information about what she saw at the park that night, which she did. Now Scott was calling again on the July 23 because of a conversation he had with a friend the day before. The friends name was Robert Spikes and Scott said he had heard Robert Spikes had seen a black van and the people in the black van were arguing with the people in the orange pinto. Scott didn’t know Spikes phone number but he told Salinas he would try to get Spikes to call him. Salinas was able to find Spikes number and called him later that same morning.
Robert Spikes informed Salinas that no he hadn’t witnessed this himself he heard it from another guy named Tony Shaw. This Tony Shaw had told Tony that a guy named Rusty had told him (Tony) that he (Rusty) had talked to a girl named Becky and she had told him that she had talked to this other guy Wednesday morning about the bodies being found. Spikes originally said he thought the guys name that talked to Becky was Ken then changed it to Tab, whom be believe was Tab Harper. Mental note as is common with rumors as they spread the information gets mixed up, prime example; Spikes thought Becky had talked to Ken which we know can’t be the case Ken was one of the victims, this is how rumors work. Salinas knew this story about Rebecca “Becky” DeMarias so it wasn’t new to him but you can see he’s starting to see the problem with this story/rumor and in his report he writes this is all the information he has and it was just hearsay. But Salinas does have to follow up so he makes contact with Tony Shaw that same day.
Shaw confirmed the story Spikes had told Salinas and Tony said he had heard this directly from Rusty Escott. With this Salinas still realizes and notes with is still just hearsay, people are getting a story second handed. For those that are trying to keep count and it does get confusing, everybody that has talked to the police at this point, July 23, about Tab Harper have a connection to either Rusty Escott or Rebecca DeMarias. We have the 2nd anonymous caller that talked to Nicoletti on July 16 that said he had heard that a Rusty had talked to a girl about the bodies on Wednesday morning, Rusty Escott himself was the first anonymous caller on July 16, Then we have Scott Johnson, whom was at the park that night but didn’t really remember much and didn’t report seeing Harper or a black van. There’s Scott’s girlfriend, Shelly White whom was also at the park, she did see the orange pinto and a van but it was gray and she described the owner of this van as a male, looked to be older, late 20’s, than most of the people that hung out at Koehne Park and Shelly and another guy named Rick had talked to his guy in the gray van and he told them he was from Fort Worth. This Rick that Shelly mentions was probably Ricky Guthrie whom was at the park and talked to police and didn’t see Harper or a black van or Ricky Pate whom also was at the park that night with his girl friend Deanna Storts and the police talked to them and they hadn’t seen Harper or a black van either. The police would find that the owner of this gray van was just some salesman that was in the area for a few days. Then we have Amy Brown, Leigh Anne Hogeland, Robert Spikes and Tony Shaw, they have all told the police this story about Harper, none of these people were at the park that night so they didn’t witness anything they all got it second hand, hearsay! So what we have is a story that has originated and expanded between two people Rebecca DeMarias and Rusty Escott. Rusty claims he talked to Rebecca on Wednesday morning and that’s when she told him about what Tab Harper had told her. Rebecca claims she didn’t talk to Harper until Wednesday night so she couldn’t possibly be telling people about it Wednesday morning. And that is the crux of the matter when did Rebecca DeMarias talk to Tab Harper? We will see this will become a problem with other peoples accounts later on. This is the problem Salinas needs to solve, he’s already drilled Rebecca DeMarias a number of times and she’s not changing her story but he does not decide to go and talk to Rusty Escott which he hasn’t done to this point, in his report he writes Nicoletti has already talked to Rusty Escott and Salinas leaves it there for now.
Detective Salinas had received a lot of information from all over the place by this time. One little piece of information he had gotten, he writes it was midnight July 20, was that a bike gang called the Scorpions had come down to Waco from Troy and they were claiming responsibility for murders. Salinas got this information from the Waxahachie police chief, he told Salinas another officer had picked up this information from an informant. When Salinas had first found Rebecca DeMariars on July 19 she was staying with a biker, with this information that a biker gang was claiming responsibility for the murders he taught there could be a connection and decided to take another crack at Rebecca. He and Sargent Fortune pick up Rebecca and bring her back to the police station on July 27.
For those that believe that Terry “Tab” Harper is guilty of committing these murders what Salinas reports while going this route becomes the best information the police would ever find that Tab Harper was in the park that night but with everything that has to do with Tab Harper there are many problems with it, Rebecca DeMariar didn’t know anything about this bike gang. There was a bike shop in Waco where apparently a lot of bikers hung out Salinas asked Rebecca about this. Again Rebecca said she didn’t know anything about this but she did have a friend that dated one of the bikers that worked at that shop and maybe she could help them. This girl’s name was Carren Ritchie and she was the next stop on Salinas’ radar.
Saiinas and Nicoletti pay a visit to Carren Ritchie at her apartment that day. Carren Ritchie wasn’t very helpful, yeah she knew a guy that worked at the shop, she didn’t know him that well only had known him from about a month, she didn’t even know his real name just his nick name; Angel. She had never heard of a bike gang called the Scorpions, the bikers that hung out at the shop weren’t a gang they didn’t fly colors or anything like that. She had remembered seeing Rebecca DeMarias the Friday before, July 23, at Flat Rock Park and Rebecca hadn’t said anything about any murders then, she had mentioned she had been picked up by the police and questioned but she did say anything because she didn’t know anything. That is all Salinas and Nicoletti got from Carren Ritchie but while they were there another girl came over. This girl was Kathy Prochnow, she knew Jill Montgomery from the Methodist Home and said she had met Raylene Rice months earlier with Jill, so she knew all the victims and she was in the park the night of July 13 between 7:30 p. m. and 9:00 p.m. and remember seeing Ken and the girls come into the park that night in the orange pinto. When Kathy was asked if she was with anybody she answered yeah she was riding a guy named Fingers and Carren Ritchie was riding with Angel. Kathy stated they were just driving through and didn’t talk to anyone.
Now here’s the problem, Salinas talks with this Angel, never gets his real name which is very questionable. It’s obvious that Salinas has told Angel that he has talked to the girls because when he asks Angel if he was in the park that night Angel replies yes he was there whatever time the girls said he was. For those familiar with the American justice system they surely have heard of a little thing called “leading a witness” which is prohibited, That is when an attorney gives a witness the answer the attorney wants in the question, example; proper question: whom did you see in the park that night? Leading the witness; Did you see Tab Harper at the park that night? Object leading the witness! Objection sustained! It’s kind of the same thing when being questioned by police, there is a huge difference between some one being questioning by an officer and giving a name unsolicited and the officer bringing up the name first and then the person talks about that h person. Again the same question that I used as my example of leading the witness would fit. So did Angel on his own bring up Tab Harper’s name or did Salinas ask him if he saw Tab Harper? Salinas does not make this clear, this is why police reports need to be clear and precise as possible just in case questions arise later, which one should expect with a capital punishment crime. Angel’s answer to Salinas’ first question that he was going along with whatever the girls had said lends support that Salinas asked Angel if he had seen Harper and Angel answered he had believing he was just going along with what the girls had said. And then when Salinas asks Angel about the vehicle Harper had at the park that night., Angel didn’t know he said he didn’t even know if Harper was in a van or a car. Angel couldn’t answer that question because he didn’t know what the girls had said, what he didn’t know was the girls never said they saw Harper that night at the park, Carren Ritchie never even said she was in the park that night. And the final argument that this was a weak and unreliable statement and Salinas knew this is the fact that Salinas never got any personal information from him in case he needed to talk to him later or use him as a witness at trial. Salinas didn’t get Angel’s real name nor address nor phone number, some might argue Salinas knew where he worked and that was enough, you get all information you can, as Salinas had done with every other person he had talked to and put it in the police reports. So this would be the only person independent of Rusty Escott but maybe not of Rebecca DeMarias that would state he saw Harper at Koehne Park that night. Good luck building a case on that statement, And of coarse this didn’t end Salinas’ interest in Tab Harper. I would also mention at this time, just so I am sure I put everything out there that is available there is one other little piece of information about Salinas’ interviews of July 27. On September 3, 1982 the day the Waco Police Department suspends the case Salinas ends his report with this sentence,”As of this time, have had no further developments in the case other than one of the witnesses that will come to talk to me on Sunday 9-5-82 in reference to her not telling me the complete truth the first time that I talked to her on July 27th. At this time, this case will be placed on the suspended file.” What girl was Salinas talking about? He talked to four girls that day Rebecca DeMarias, Carren Ritchie, Kathy Prochnow and Kim Lauderdale. Since Salinas said when he first talked to her on the 27th that would discount Rebecca, he had talked to her many times prior to the 27th. That leaves the other three girls Carren, Kathy and Kim and the first contact he made with all three of these girls was the 27th. Kim had called about another subject, Benny Smith, and she hadn’t been at the park that night, she just didn’t feel safe about this Benny guy, so nothing of great value as a witness to seeing something that happened that night. That would leave Carren and Kathy; the former had never said she was in the park that night, the later had. Which one wanted to change her story and what did she have to say? We don’t know because this meeting of July 5, if it did happen, is never mentioned in any of the police reports.
By this time Rumors by Rusty was about to get shut down, During the morning of July 28, Salinas received a call from one Georgia Hofen, she stated that her children had told her that a subject by the name of Johnny Mayhew had told them that a guy named Rusty had come to his place the Friday after the murders and mentioned that he had seen the murdered kids get into the van of a subject that was known to be a bad guy. That’s all the information Mrs. Hofen had but Salinas new this story all to well, he knew whom this Rusty was and he knew whom the bad guy supposedly was. But looking into this Johnny Mayhew he found something very interested, Mayhew had gotten arrested on a weapons charge earlier in 82 and he had released his truck to one Arthur “Rusty” Escott. Though many people had mentioned Rusty no one seemed to know him very well, it looked like Mayhew might be the exception and maybe he could shed some light on this character.
Salinas contacts Mayhew and tells him about the information he had gotten about the conversation Mayhew supposedly had with Rusty on July 16. Mayhew informed Salinas Rusty has a big mouth and that he (Mayhew) never really listens to anything Rusty has to say because Rusty isn’t a credible person, that hit Salinas like a ton of brings, he now realizes he has been chasing down a rumor, those valuable early hours of the investigation have been wasted and lost on this story. He also realizes he has never talked to Rusty himself, only Nicoletti has, that’s about to change. Salinas contacts Nicoletti and tells him to bring Rusty to the police station so he (Salinas) can talk to him.
Nicoletti has Rusty at the police station by approximately 11:00 a.m. that morning, July 28. Salinas runs down all the information the police have on Rusty,; he had talked to Rebecca DeMarias on Wednesday July 14 in the morning and that at that time she told Rusty that Tab Harper had mentioned that there were dead bodies at Speegleville. That Rusty had been in the park that night and had seen Tab Harper and Harper was in a Black Van. The police had also been told Rusty had told people he saw the victims arguing with Harper and then the victims getting in Harper’s van. Salinas told Rusty he wanted all the details. Rusty sits there thinking about it, then gives Salinas details about the first encounter he had with Rebecca DeMarias and states it wasn’t Wednesday morning, it was Thursday. Rebecca DeMarias had been telling the truth this whole time. Salinas knows this changes everything, he writes in his report anyone could have heard about it Wednesday night. Then Salinas asks Rusty what he had seen at Koehne Park that night, Rusty stated he had seen the orange pinto and Harper sitting in a black van talking to some one standing outside the van. But now Rusty admits he never saw the victims, didn’t see them argue with Harper did not see them get into the van. That was just another tall tale Rusty had told, the basis of the rumor that still persists today, pitiful. That would be the end of the story of Tab Harper being seen at Koehne Park that Tueday night July 13, 1982.
Though this would be the last mention of Tab Harper being at Koehne Park the night of July 13, it wouldn’t be the last time his name came up in reference to him being out at the lake Wednesday July 14 and/or Thursday July 15. And since I know I’m the first person that complains when I see people only tell the part of the story that fits their theory, I would be remissed if I did not post everything there is in the police reports about this until the Waco Police Department suspended the case on September 3, 1982.
On August 2, at approximately 9:00 a. m. Salinas received a call from a Bob Seggler Mr. Seggler told Salinas that he had talked to Nicoletti on July 27 about midnight they had been standing outside of Okey Dokeys, I guess this must have been a social occasion because Nicoletti never mentioned this, maybe he told Mr. Seggler he needed to call into the station which he finally did on August 2.
Mr. Seggler’s story was this; he knew this girl from the Gemini Apartments named Nell Priest and she had told him that she had talked to Tab Harper July 14 before news of the murders had come out and that her days were numbered, so she didn’t know how much longer she would be around. Seggler also said that Nell Priest had told him she had made an anonymous call about this to grime stoppers. This puts the focus back on Harper, even though they couldn’t put any faith in Rusty’s story maybe the stories of which girl Tab Harper had threatened had gotten mixed up, maybe it was Nell Priest that Harper had threatened not Rebecca DeMarias. First Salinas tries to get the information on the call to crime stoppers but there is no record of an anonymous female caller ever calling in about Harper. Then Salinas goes to the Gemini Apartments but Nell Priest isn’t home, Salinas leaves his card.
Nell Priest calls back later that day wondering why the police had left their card in her door. Salinas explains he would like to talk to her about some information he had received and asked her if she would come down to the station so they could talk about it in the privacy of an office, Nell agreed to come down. When she arrives Salinas tells her the information he has received, Nell denies any knowledge of this. Upon further questioning Nell tells Salinas about an incident she had with Tab Harper the year before at Airport Park. While she was walking to one of the restrooms Harper had come up behind her and picked her up and wouldn’t let her go. Nell busted a beer bottle over his head. After this Harper threw her on the ground pulled out a knife and said she should kill her for what she did. Nell informed Salinas she was not afraid of Harper at the time. She also stated about a week or two before the murders Harper had told her he was ready to go back to the pen and he was going to hurt some one before he did, this had happened in the Jack’s Stereo parking lot.
Nell Priest runs her dogs in the afternoon at Midway Park and she remembered she Harper there either Wednesday July 14 or Thursday July 15, she wasn’t sure, and Harper was with Mark Boatman and Harper was bragging about killing the two girls and the boy, she just thought Harper was exaggerating and didn’t pay that much attention to him. Nell stated that other kids were saying that if the police looked under the driver seat of Harper’s van they would find a bloody knife wrapped in a towel, Salinas knew wasn’t true because the police had looked in the van when they picked up Harper on July 15.
At first Nell Priest couldn’t give any names of the kids that she had heard this from or that were at Midway Park when Harper had said this, then she gave the name of the girl that had brought her to the police station, June Wilson and Nell added that it was June that had first asked her if she had heard about the murders on Thursday morning. This little piece of information is very important though it gets overlooked.
Salinas talks to June Wilson and she tells the same story and Nell did about going to Midway Park, she adds the details that Harper and Boatman had arrived in a boat and that she had followed Nell to the park and got there approximately at 3:30 p. m.. June said this had happened on Wednesday July 14. Then Salinas asked her if she had asked Nell if she had heard about the murders on Thursday morning, June agreed she had. Salinas sees the problem with this story, if June first asked Nell about this on Thursday morning the conversation they had with Harper couldn’t happen before that because that would have been when Nell first heard about the murders. June tells Salinas she needs to think about it and talk to some other of her friends that were there, again friends that won’t be named, and get back to him June called back the next day August 3 and left a message with Detective Trantham, she stated she was positive she heard this on Wednesday July 14. This is another one of those areas where if you look at all the information it looks like June Wilson was just mistaken about what she heard on what day. Some might argue maybe it was Nell that was mixed up but if you look at the fact that both girls agree that it was Thursday morning that June first talked to Nell about it that makes sense. If June first heard about this from Harper at Midway Park on Wednesday when she said she was there which was in the afternoon after school, she still could have not asked Nell about it Wednesday morning? It was Thursday morning, so the most probable scenario is June heard about the murders sometime Wednesday night, talked to Nell on Thursday morning which was the first Nell heard about it which both girls agree to and then Thursday afternoon both girls went to Midway Park Thursday afternoon and that when they ran into Harper. But that’s not the only problem with the girls story.
On August 5, Salinas and Holstein track down Mark Boatman at his place of employment. The officers share with Boatman what they have been told. Boatman informs them he hasn’t hung around with Harper for about a month and no he was in any boat at no Airport Park (that’s what it says in the report, though Salinas had been told it was Midway Park), he had been at work all week. Salinas and Holstein talked to Boatman’s boss and he confirmed Boatman had been at work and he had time cards to verify it. I would have to point out this is something Anthony Melendez could not do, his boss could not confirm Tony was at the work site he was suppose to be and they didn’t use time cards, they worked on a honor system, kind of strange working on a honor system with some one that is already hiding out from authorities because of a robbery, assault and rape charge, just my opinion.
Anyway Mark Boatman had a rock solid alibi that he was at work and couldn’t be at any of the parks around the lake at the time Nell and June say and add that it had to be Thursday when they saw Harper which would have been after the news of the murders had be put out, Salinas and the Waco Police Department wasn’t getting any closer to putting Terry “Tab” Harper at Koehne Park on Tuesday night and they never would.
It looks like I need to clear something up regarding what I said about what Salinas did with his conversation with the biker Angel. I was not implying Salinas did anything wrong but an officer needs to be thorough, like I said clear and precise in his reports, Salinas failed to do this in this instance. For example in his reports when he talked to Nell Priest and Rusty Escott, Salinas clearly states he told them what he had been told by other people and they responded, Nothing wrong with that it shows that he brought up the subject matter they didn’t. This wasn’t the case with Angel, Salinas is vague did he ask Angel if he saw Harper or did Angel mention Harper own his own? We can’t be absolutely sure with what Salinas writes in his report. The one indicator we do have is Angel’s answer about being at the park, his response is yes he was there whenever the girls say he was. That tells us that he was aware Salinas knew he was at the park with the girls so Salinas must have told him this, it’s just not in the report nor is what else Salinas might have told him and that’s a problem. We can look at other reports from other officers to see this and maybe better understand it.
Sargent Baier was very clear and precise in most of his reports once he and Truman Simons took over the case on September 10 after the original officers investigating suspended the case. The first thing Baier and Simons did was go over the reports of the other officers to see if they had missed anything. They had; not one officer had talked to Muneer Deeb even though they were given information Deeb was responsible for the murders and they had never asked any of Kenneth’s friends about Deeb even though the information they had received was Deeb had killed Kenneth because of Gayle Kelly and they knew Kelly was a very close friend to Kenneth, her name kept coming up and even when she came in to the police station which was the day after the police had gotten this information about Deeb, they never asked her about Deeb, his name was never mentioned. Baier knew one of Kenneth’s friends; Bobby Brem and that’s where his investigation would start.
In his report detailing his interview with Bobby Brem, Baier clearly states he asked Brem about Muneer Deeb. Baier had brought up the subject not Bobby. It would be the same thing when the officers interviewed Gayle Kelly they brought up the subject of Muneer Deeb and again Baier writes that in his report. In contrast when Baier went to Fort Fisher to talk to Lou Booker, she was the girls’ supervisor, it was Ms. Booker that brought up Muneer Deeb and again Baier puts this in his report writing, “Ms. Booker brought up the fact without me saying anything about it”. That’s crystal clear and that’s what we should expect with all the police reports unfortunately we don’t get that.
What information did the police, during their investion from Wenesday July 14 until September 3, obtain from people that were at Koehne Park the night the kids went missing? This can get a little confusing because they received information from people from many of the parks; Airport, Midway and Speegleville, they also obtained info from people out on the lake. They talked to some people a couple times and their stories changed. Some people went under hypnosis. Some would testify in court others would not.I see the number 17 as the number of people the police talked to that were there but from the reports you can see it was probably more. And that not counting to people they found out were at Koehne Park at a later time. Also we should count Mr. Franks he had been to Koehne Park and found the car sometime that night and he had spent most of the night at Midway Park which he failed to tell the police until about 2 weeks later. Clifford Oliver was another person that had been to Koehne Park that night and then returned the next morning with David Spence but there is some confusion when he first told police this. He would testify the he talked to Lt. Horton a couple days later when he came in to take care of the check that had bounced when he paid to get his car out of the impound but Horton’s report doesn’t say anything about this. So I have tried to make a simple list; Name of witness, date interviewed, what vehicles and/or people they saw and little detail if needed. Since I recently went through Rusty Escott, Kathy Prochnow and the Biker Angel I won’t go through their statements again but they also could be counted.
1) Rick Guthrie – 7/15 – He went to the park about 9:15 p.m. with a friend Phil Schultz, when they got their the Orange Pinto was already there and the front seats were pushed up as if people had gotten out of the back seat, he didn’t see the kids. He also remember seeing a white truck with tool boxes which was there when they got there and was still there when they left, He also remember seeing a group of blacks partying around one of the picnic tables Guthrie reported seeing one other car, a new small black or dark car that pulled up beside the Orange Pinto sat there for awhile but left before Guthrie and Schultz. He would testify during Spence’s second trial and his story would change.
2) Scott Johnson – 7/16 – Scott had gone to the park about 6:30 p.m. and his girlfriend came looking for him late. He really didn’t remember anything he saw but his girlfriend Shelly White had mentioned to him she remembered seeing the Orange Pinto, so Scott called the police to tell them maybe they should talk to her.
3) Shelly White – 7/17 – Shelly stated she went to the park about 7:30 p.m. to look for Scott and she saw the Orange Pinto down at the circle at that time. She drove around the circle again around dark, 9:00 p.m. – 9:30 p.m., and the Orange Pinto was still there. Shelly also had seen a red car and a white truck parked in the circle, In addition Shelly recalled seeing a gray van, she and another guy name Rick talked to the owner of this van. The police would do follow ups with both Scott and Shelly, nothing new with what they saw that night
4) Debbie Cunningham – 7/17 – Debbie was with a friend parked in a truck by the boat ramp she reported seeing a white male standing behind the truck, he walked up to the window, when the guy Debbie was with reached under the seat like he was going to pull out a weapon this guy took off. Later Debbie was shown a photo line-up to see if she could identify the guy she saw from any of the photos, she picked out one of the Payne brothers. The Payne Brothers had tried to blame the murders on James “Blinky” Lucas.
5) Ronald Robinson – 7/17- Ronald went to the park approximately 1:30 a.m. July 14. He was with a friend; John Kent, they had been at Okey Dokey’s and were with a girl he couldn’t name that was highly intoxicated if not passed out, they had taken her to the park to get her to sober up so she could tell them where she lived so they could take her home. According to Ronald while they were sitting there the Orange Pinto pulled in and a few minutes later a green Duster pulled in behind the Pinto and the male driver of the Pinto got in the Duster and they took off. A few minutes later a Lincoln Continental pulls in and parks near the Pinto. The white male in this car was smoking hash and invited Ronald to come party at his place and gave his address and phone number. With this information the police found this person to be Robert Freuh.
After Gayle Kelly told Nicoletti that she had been followed by 3 black guys in a blue car, he remembered Salinas talking about Robinson, so they decided to talk to Ronald again which occurred on Jul 25 and now Ronald’s story changed. Now he stated that he and John Kent with this drunk girl had left Okey Dokey’s around 11:45 p.m. and when they got to the park the Orange Pinto was already there and he didn’t see anybody around it. He did see a Duster pull up later but it was blue not green as he stated earlier, note: Ronald was in a blue Duster also. This blue duster Robinson now says he saw at about 12:45 a.m. He added a few details about his conversation with Robert Freuh. Robert was looking for a blonde driving a Monte Carlo. Robinson also added that he thought he knew Robert from before when he was in junior high school, Freuh was a substitute teacher. Ronald didn’t see any other people and didn’t see any one around the Orange Pinto.
6) Melinda Wells – 7/16 – States she was at the park approximately at 11:00 p.m., she saw the Orange Pinto and the three kids at that time. Melinda also remembered seeing a white truck and a white car.
7 & 8) David Pearcy & Candyce Satterwhite – 7/16 – This couple was originally interviewed together, they had arrived at the park at approximately 10:15 p.m., were in a silver and gold 1978 Malibu and parked close to the Orange Pinto. They remembered seeing the white work truck, Ms. Satterwhite was able to provide more detail about this truck, see added that the truck had like a magnetic sign with red letters, she thought the letters were :Chaz”. The couple also remembered seeing a white car and as they were leaving they saw a red and white Ford truck. Candyce and David both agreed to be placed under hypnosis.
David was placed under hypnosis on July 21 and pretty much gave the same info he had given on July 16. Candyce was placed under hypnosis on July 22, she also gave close to the same account she had earlier but now she had more to add. Keep in mind the couple had parked next to the Pinto which was parked to their left, the white work truck was parked to their right. Now Ms. Satterwhite says she saw a blond hair girl wearing blue jeans or dark pants and a purple and gray halter top, it looked like the girl was coming from the truck that was parked directly behind the Pinto, Candyce couldn’t be sure, this girl that she saw was standing behind the vehicle. After this Candyce went back to describing the white work truck that was parked to their right, nothing else was said about this other truck that had pulled in behind the Pinto that was parked to their left, couldn’t be the same truck.
9) DeAnna Storts – Like so many other things there is some confusion in the reports regarding when DeAnna contacted authorities. The first mention of DeAnna Storts is in Sargent Holstein’s report of July 19, it’s just her name. In the morning of Monday July 19 the Waco Police held a meeting among all the officers that were working on the case, there was so much information coming in they wanted to make sure that all this information was being shared and getting to the people that needed it. The department had brought in officers just to handle the phones so many calls were coming in, it looks like Holstein was one of the officers working the phones at this point, she was contacting the people whom had called in or those whose names had come in, she was making the initial contacts. This is how she came across DeAnna Storts, she had called the crime stoppers shortly after the bodies had been found. During that call she had stated she though she had seen Kenneth Franks in a car, the person taking the call asked her if she had the licences plate number of this car, DeAnna said she didn’t and she was told to call back when she had that information, she would call back about three weeks later, still don’t know what date this was. Holstein called her on either July 22 or July 23, it;s in her report of July 23. DeAnna tells Holstein that she went to the park with her boyfriend Ricky Pate, they arrived at the park at 9:15 p.m., she was sure about the time she said because she looked at her watch when they got to the park. She stated she saw the Orange Pinto with Kenneth Franks with the two girls come into the park, she knew Kenneth but didn’t know the girls. She waved to Kenneth and asked him how he was doing and he said fine. DeAnna saw the Pinto drive down to the circle, she and Ricky left to go get something to eat and were gone for about 20 minutes. When they returned the Pinto was still parked down in the circle, she never saw the kids nor the car leave, DeAnna and Ricky left between 10:30 p.m. and 11:00 p.m.. There was no mention of seeing Kenneth in another car during this conversation, that could be because DeAnna hadn’t found the licences plate of that car yet and didn’t think it was worth mentioning. DeAnna Storts would not be contacted again until November 17, when Salinas came across the information DeAnna had given crime stoppers the second time; the plate number of the car she thought she saw Kenneth in. Salinas set up an interview for November 19.
During the July 19 interview DeAnna related the same thing she had told Holstein back in July. Now she tells Salinas about the car she saw Kenneth in, it was the car belonging to Robert Freuh, she remembered seeing Kenneth riding in this car with an elder gentleman she didn’t know, they left the park. the gentleman driving came back about 25 minutes later but DeAnna didn’t see Kenneth in the car at this time. The car left and returned to the park a couple times but she never saw Kenneth again. Being questioned about this, DeAnna explains to Salinas how she had called crime stoppers right after she heard about the murders but she didn’t have the license plate number and was told to call back when she did, which she did a few weeks later. With this information Salinas set up a hypnosis session for DeAnna which took place the next day; July 20 and she told the same story under hypnosis. With this information the police would talk to Robert Freuh for the first time.
10) Robert Freuh – 11/22 – Rev. Freuh told the police he had arrived at the park between 1:00 a.m. and 1:30 a.m. July 14 and that he had talked to two couples in a truck, he was looking for a girl he said he was suppose to meet after she got off work. This would match what Ronald Robinson had told the police about his encounter with Freuh at the park, the time and that he was looking for a girl, though Freuh didn’t mention talking to anyone in a blue Duster. The police noting that the information didn’t coincide with other information they had received asked Mr. Freuh if he would agree to take a lie detector test, they told him to think about it for a few days. When they contacted Freuh days later he told them to talk to his lawyer and if his lawyer thought it was a good idea he would take the test. Robert Freuh never took the test.
11) Ricky Pate – Holly Holstein called Ricky the same day she called DeAnna Storts. Ricky didn’t remember much, he didn’t know Kenneth or the girls and he didn’t paying attention to the car. He did state DeAnna had told him she had seen the car and recgonized the subjects. Ricky was also able to confirm the time he and DeAnna left, stating that he got home about 11:15 p;m. which tallied with DeAnna’s accout.
I knew Robert Frueh years before–when it seemed as if he would be the last person in the world connected with drugs, crime, teenage boys, etc. I am interested in finding out what happened with him–how he ended up becoming the person described here and in other accounts.
Hello dm, Robert Frueh was killed some years later, if I’m not mistaken it was a teenage boy that killed him and I think there was some questionable circumstances, I will have to look back and read some of the old articles. I know there are people that know more about it than I so maybe they can better ask your question, I will ask. Mr. Frueh was a preacher, was a substitute teacher and also worked at 4-C College, I don’t know when his questionable behavior began but he had a reputation by the time the Lake Waco Murders occurred. There were three people that would mention Robert Frueh in connection with this case; Benny Poston. Ronald Robinson and Deanna Storst.
Benny Poston was a biker and his wife Donna worked with Mr. Frueh at 4-C College. Mr Poston reported that Mr. Frueh would invite people to his house offer them alcohol and drugs, show pornographic movies and make sexual advances towards the men. He added that Mr. Frueh frequented the parks around the lake.
Ronald Robinson would report to police that he saw Robert Frueh at Koehne Park. His original story was thus, Robinson got to the park between 1: a.m. and 1:30 a.m., he said he was there with a girl that was highly intoxicated and he was trying to get her to sober up so he could find where she lived so he could take her home. After he had been sitting there for a while he saw the Orange Pinto (The victim’s car) pull in, a green Duster pulled in behind the Pinto and the male subject that was driving the Pinto got into the Duster and they took off. A couple minutes later a Lincoln Continental comes into the park and pulls in close to the Pinto. The driver of this car came over to Robinson. This subject was smoking hash according to Robinson and asked him if he ever wanted to party to give him a call, the subject gave his name as Bob and also gave Robinson his phone number and address. This is how the police were able to determine it was Robert Frueh, This was Robinson’s first story it would change when the police talked to him a second time.
Before we get back to Robinson, we should get to the third person, Deanna Storts, want to keep things in proper order. The Waco police had heard about Benny Poston and talked to Ronald Robinson the first time on Saturday July 17, 1982. Somewhere in that same time period Deanna Storts apparently called the Crime Stoppers hotline to report she may have information about the murders, there is some question when she called, the first we see of her name is in Holly Holstien’s report for July 19, 1982 and it just mentions her name, it looks as though at that time Sargent Holstien was responsible for making contact with all those that called in, so with that by seeing Deanna’s name on the report for July 19 it would tell us that she had called by then, Detective Ramon Salinas would state later he never knew about the first call. So we don’t know exactly when Deanna called the first time or what she said. When Holstien made contact with DeAnna, the only information she gave was that she was at the park and that she remembered seeing Kenneth and that she had talked to him briefly and he replied, so she was positive it was Kenneth. Deanna’s boyfriend Ricky confirmed they were at the park when Deanna. Really not much information there so the police don’t talk to Deanna again until November.
As all this was going on the apartment of Patti Deis had been broken into twice, Gayle Kelly had been staying with Patti Deis but she returned to the Methodist Home after the second break in. Officer Mike Nicoletti would go to the Home on July 23, 1982 to talk to Gayle, the second break in had just happened the night before. While be interviewed Gayle mentions that a couple days earlier, July 21, while she was out running errands she was followed by three black guys in a blue car, she said she discussed this with Patti and Patti told her she had been followed by the same car and people. Nicoletti remembered the report Salinas had made on Ronald Robinson, a black male that was in a blue car, Nicoletti tells Salinas the information Gayle told him and they decide to interview Ronald Robinson again, this would take place on July 25, 1982.
Ronald Robinson’s story changed by this time. Now the Orange Pinto was already in the park when he got there, A car did pull in but now it was a blue Duster not green and there is no mention of anyone getting picked up. His story about Robert Frueh stays pretty much the same, Robinson adds the Frueh asked him about a girl Frueh was apparently suppose to meet. And now Robnison says he thinks he knows Frueh from before, Frueh was a substitute teacher at his junior high and was a known homosexual. Robinson gives the detectives the name of the friend he was with that night, John Kent. I don’t think the police were ever able to find this guy or at least hadn’t by the time the case was suspended in September.
So that was all the information the police had on Robert Frueh when the case was suspended on September 3, 1982. In November when the detectives were going back over the reports and checking to see if they missed anything that’s when Ramon Salinas came across Deanna Stort’s second call to the Crime Stoppers hotline and now she had a lot more to say. Deanna told Salinas she had originally called the hotline only a few days after the murders were reported, she had told them that she saw Kenneth Franks in a Lincoln Continental and that she saw Kenneth leave the park in this car and she remembered seeing that car return but Kenneth wasn’t in the car when it returned. The person taking the call asked Deanna if she had the license plate number of the car and she didn’t so Deanna was told to call back when she did. In the interim is when Holstien called, Deanna didn’t mention the car to Holstien because she still hadn’t found the plate number and Holstien hadn’t asked her anything about it. A few days later Deanna called the hotline again now she had the plate number, it was Robert Frueh, but no one had gotten back with her until Detective Salinas did so in Novenber. With this new information Salinas decided they needed to interview Robert Frueh which had never been done.
Robert Frueh was interviewed on November 22, 1982, his story pretty much matched up with what Ronald Robinson had reported to police. Frueh stated he had been out at the park around 1:00 a.m. and he was looking for a girl, just as he had told Robinson. Frueh didn’t mention anything about the hash or making any offers for Robinson to come party with him. And his story didn’t match what Deanna Storts had told the police, she had stated she had seen him at the park much earlier. With that the police thought he wasn’t being honest with them, so they asked if he would be willing to take a lie detector test. Salinas told Frueh to think about it and call him back in a few days. When Frueh didn’t call back Salinas contacted him, now Frueh told him that he had gotten an attorney, Lou Bright, and if the police wanted him to take a lie detector test they needed to talk to Lou Bright and if Mr. Bright would advise Frueh if he should or shouldn’t take the test. Salinas called Lou Bright but never got a return call. And that would be the conclusion of Robert Frueh’s involvement in this case.
I am responding to dm957.
I am curious as to the “person” you knew Robert Frueh to be. The consensus of opinion on his reputation definitely NOT FAVORABLE.
WHAT IS THE ROBERT FRUEH YOU KNEW??
12) Terry Barrett – 7/23 – State he arrived at the park approximately at 6:45 p.m., he saw the Orange Pinto and the two girls. He also saw a Blue Chevy driven by a white male pull up next to the Pinto and talked to the girls then left. Terry also remembered seeing the white work van. Barrett said he was in the park for only about a half hour. He would call the police later that day to inform them that he had heard another guy named John Henderson had also been at the park that night.
13) Larry McBride – 7/26 – The police had received information that this subject frequently went to Koehne Park and picked up girls and took them out on his boat to water ski. Salinas and Fortune tracked down McBride. McBride confirmed that he regularly went out to Koehne Park and picked up girls to go water skiing. He had been at the park on July 13 from approximately 4:00 p.m. until dark and picked up a couple girls, he thought their names were Donna and Sharon, didn’t know their last names, these girls were students at Richfield High School. He told Salinas and Fortune if he talked to these girls in the future he would tell them the police were interested in talking with them. McBride couldn’t provide any further information, he was shown pictures of Jill and Raylene but he didn’t remember seeing them at the park. Nor did he remember seeing Kenneth or the Orange Pinto.
14) John Henderson – 7/28 – John had gone to the park with his friend Kenny Young at approximately 7:00 p.m., he remembered seeing Kenneth and the girls drive in the park in the Pinto. Later in the evening he remembered seeing them sitting on a bench talking close to where the Pinto was parked. The only other vehicle John could remember was the white van. Henderson would be contacted by Salinas again on November 19, this was in reference to Henderson seeing Kenneth and the girls getting into a bright colored Trans-Am or Z28 on Monday night July 12. Of coarse this could not have been Jill and Raylene they were not in Waco on Monday, If Henderson did see Kenneth with two girls getting into a sports car on Monday, it had to be two other girls. Gayle Kelly’s friend Patty Deis had a peach colored Thunderbird, Gayle and Kenneth were close friends, so could this have been the case. The problem with this is Gayle was suppose to be on restriction at the Methodist Home not allowed to leave the grounds. Again Salinas’ report is not clear on this subject he states “At this time John Henderson advised he had not been at Koehne Park that night”. What night? Stating John is saying this “At this time” makes it sound that that is in contradiction to what he may have said at a prior time. So what night was John there, Salinas would talk to Henderson’s friend Kenny Young next.
15) Kenny Young – 7/28 – Kenny stated he did go to the park with John Henderson the night of July 13 and did see Kenneth and the girls come into the park in the Orange Pinto, But later when He and John were driving around the park and went down to the circle he didn’t remember seeing the Pinto or Kenneth and the girls. He didn’t remember seeing anything, he said his mind must have been somewhere else at the time. Kenny Young would testify during David Wayne Spence’s second trial.
16) Charles Ramsey – 7/27 & 7/28 – Mr. Ramsey was the owner of the white work truck/van many of the witnesses had mentioned seeing in the park, During his first interview with Holstein, Ramsey stated he got to the park about 4:30 p.m. and the orange Pinto was already there and he stayed at the park until about midnight. He also remembered seeing two black females and three black males at one of the picnic tables. Mr. Ramsey fell asleep off and on while he was there but did see a number of vehicles coming and going. He was sure he got to the park between 4:30 p.m. and 5:00 p.m.. He observed a light colored or silver car pull in and sit for awhile, there were two males in this car, they left then back back and at a little while longer, he didn’t remember seeing any one get out of this car. Ramsey stated that the group of black people he saw were in a yellow car. He remembered seeing a dark brown van, it didn’t stop just drove through. He also said that the Orange Pinto never moved the whole time he was there, it was in the same when he left as it was when he pulled in.
Holstein and Salinas would interview Ramsey a second time the next day. Asked about what time he arrived at the park Ramsey said it was approximately 5:00 p.m. and that it could not have been any later than 5:30 p.m., Mr. Ramsey didn’t have a watch and the clock in his truck didn’t work. He had come to Waco to bid on a job, that was about 3:30 p.m. after that he came to the park to watch the skiers and get some rest before he headed back to Rosebud. Again he stated the orange Pinto was already parked there, it was parked facing the lake. He retold the same story of the black people he saw at the picnic table. Then Mr. Ramsey got into some of the vehicles he saw. There was an old car, color he couldn’t remember that pulled behind him. A subject got out, went to one of the picnic tables, ate which took about 20 to 25 minutes and then left. He remembered seeing another old car that was dark in color that parked on the other side of the Pinto, Mr. Ramsey was parked to the left of the Pinto. He mentioned the yellow car again. Before dark he saw the light gray or silver car with two white males pull in between his truck and the Pinto. This car sat there for awhile then left. Around dusk this car returned and sat for a while again. Mr. Ramsey couldn’t remember seeing anyone get out of this car. Then at dark or a little after the group of blacks got in the yellow car and left. About this time he got out of his truck and walked around and he didn’t see anybody out walking around at that time. Ramsey added he fell a sleep off and on during this time and he didn’t remember seeing another car pull in but he did hear and see two couples laughing and carrying on at one of the picnic tables. He dozed off again then another car pulled in right beside the Pinto and a boy and girl got out and walked toward the lake, they stayed down there about a half hour.and then left. He was asked if he had seen a white van or anything like that, he said the only dark color van he had seen was the brown van he had mentioned before and that it had two big picture windows.
Though Charles Ramsey’s recollection of July 13 is very interesting it is just impossible to reconcile his time line with regards to seeing the Orange Pinto at the Park about 5:00 p.m. and that it never moved from the time he got there until he left.
17) Bonnie Wood – 7/29 – Ms. Wood called the police station, she heard the news that the police wanted to talk to a group of blacks that had been to Koehne Park Tuesday July 13, she stated she had been at the park with some friends and her brother from approximately 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m., she didn’t remember seeing the orange Pinto. The only vehicle she could recall seeing was the white truck. Salinas asked her if she could come in and look at some photos of the Pinto and then see what she might remember. Ms. Wood agreed to come in later that day.
At the station Bonnie stated pretty much the same thing she had said when she called but now she remembered the orange Pinto and said that it pulled in after she and her friends were already there. She remember seeing three white people two girls and one boy and the three parked they got out and walked to one of the picnic tables that was near by. She also remembered seeing a white station wagon with brown panel sides pull in between the white truck and orange Pinto. Then she remembered seeing a boy and girl in a white tennis suit walking and changed her story that she had seen this couple get out of a car not the three kids in the Pinto but she did remember seeing the Pinto pull in and it was there when Ms. Wood and her friends left about 9:00 p.m.. Ms. Wood gave the names of the other people in her group and told Salinas that Regayle Bush might be able to provide more details, the other names she gave were Byron Wood; her brother, Martha Turner and Haywood Lott.
18) Regayle Bush – 7/30 – Ms. Bush also stated they had arrived at the park between 7:00 p.m and 7:15 p.m., she remembered seeing the orange Pinto with the three kids pull in about 7:40 p.m. She also remembered seeing the couple walking around and that the girl was wearing a white tennis suit. Ms. Bush stated that Bonnie’s car was parked only 8 to 10 feet away from the Pinto and that the Pinto was still there when she left with her friends at approximately 9:20 p.m.
19) Byron Wood – 7/30 – While Salinas interviewed Regayle Bush, Nicoletti interviewed Byron Wood, Nicoletti couldn’t get much information from Mr. Wood. Salinas wrote in his report that it looked like Bonnie, Byron and Regayle had talked together before talking to the police, they all remembered seeing the girl in the white tennis suit whom the police knew was Candyce Satterwhite.
20) Martha Turner – 7/30 – Ms. Turner stated they had gotten to the park between 8:00 p.m. and 8:15 p.m., she remembered seeing the white truck that had some writing on the side, it was there when they pulled in. She remembered seeing the orange Pinto pull in with the three kids and the kids getting out and walking down to the point which was out by the water, they just sat there in a circle talking for about 20 to 30 minutes, Ms. Turner didn’t see any one else walk down there or talk to the kids. Then close to dark she observed the kids walking back towards the Pinto. She did not see if they kids talked to anyone or got into another car and didn’t remember seeing any vehicle stop or pull in between the Pinto and the white truck. Ms. Turner said she left with her friends between 9:00 p.m. and 9:15 p.m. and did not see if the kids had left or not, she did not believe the Pinto left from the time Ms. Turner got there until she left. Another car she remembered seeing was a old brownish ragged station wagon, with one white male and a few small children and that only one of two of the small children got out and ran around, this car left before Ms. Turner and her friends. She remembered seeing a sort of green pastel car pull in and that a couple was in the car but they never got out of the car, this car also left before she did. And as the others in her group she remembered seeing the girl in the white tennis outfit. Ms. Turner was interviewed by Holstein and Holstein states she thinks Martha was mixing up the girl in the white tennis outfit with the two girls in the Pinto, so Holstein asked if she would be willing to be placed under hypnosis, Martha stated she understood the importance and would be willing.
21) Patsy Lyon – 8/19 – The police first became of aware of Patsy Lyon when they received an anonymous call from a lady in Waco that reported Ms. Lyon had been out at Koehne Park most of the night with a male subject that wasn’t her husband. Salinas asked the anonymous caller to have Ms. Lyon call him so he wouldn’t have to call her house, Patsy Lyon never called. Salinas finally tracked her down on August 19, Ms. Lyon stated she had been at the park with Tim Vestal and they had parked in the boat ramp area. She felt like she had seen an orange car but she wasn’t sure if it was the Pinto, she didn’t know much about cars. She was shown pictures of the kids but she couldn’t remember seeing the kids, she didn’t see anybody around the cars at that time which she said was around 10:30 p.m., Ms. Lyon and Mr. Vestal left the park about that time and came back around midnight and stayed until about 3:00 a.m..
22) Tim Vestal – 8/18 – Tim said about the same thing Patsy had said, he thought he had seen the orange car but he didn’t know if it was a Pinto. Mr. Vestal did add that he and Ms. Lyon were only in the boat ramp area they never drove down into the circle. He never heard anything out of the ordinary the whole long time they were out there.
So there it is 22 eyewitness accounts covering the hours from 5:00 p.m. until 3:00 a.m.; Tab Harper sightings: ZERO, Black Van sightings: ZERO. The closest we get is one account of a brown van.
And now the story of Mary Padilia. The Waco Police Department first became aware of Mary Padilia when they received a call from one Steve Turnage on July 23 whom stated he had attended the funeral of Kenneth Franks, while there he talked to Mary. Turnage described Mary Padilia as a 17 year old girl that attended Waco High. Steve stated Mary had told him she saw the kids get into a van, this was all the information Steve Turnage had. Remind you this was still when the police were hot and heavy on the trail of Tab Harper, any information that remotely sounded like it involved him they were all over. Salinas and Fortune tracked down Mary Padilia on July 26. She told the officers she had seen Kenneth Franks at the 7-11 store at N. 19th and Park Lane at approximately 9:00 p.m. and that he was talking to a female in a silver truck in front of Chief’s auto next to the 7-11. Mary said she yelled out to him and waved and Kenneth looked her way but she didn’t think he saw her. There was no mention of a van or kids getting in a van, no Tab Harper, so that looked like the end of that.
Then on August 30 Salinas made contact with Wilson Sockwell. Mr. Sockwell stated he had had a conversation with his twin daughters Cindy and Lindy whom had heard information that Kenneth Franks was seen in a truck the night of the murders. Mr. Sockwell said his daughters had received this information from another source. Cindy and Lindy were seniors at Valley Mills High School, that would be Salinas’ next stop.
Salinas talked to the girls at the school and they admitted they had told their dad this story about Kenneth being seen in a truck the night of the murders and they got this information from Janet McLemore and Ms. McLemore had told the twins she had heard it from her cousin Darlene Bland. Cindy and Lindy stated that a friend of Darlene’s friend had said that Kenneth was seen in a truck sitting between two subjects and the girl that had seen this had waved to Kenneth but Kenneth didn’t wave back which the girl didn’t understand because she was a real close friend to Kenneth. Cindy and Lindy added they thought this had happened at Koehne Park. Salinas got Darlene Bland’s mother’s information from the school and paid her a visit at work.
Mrs. Bland, Darlene’s mother, told Salinas that Darlene’s last name was now Ledlow and further stated Darlene had told her this story about this Kenneth Franks being seen in this truck with two other subjects but Mrs. Bland didn’t know anything about Kenneth. Salinas then went to Darlene Ledlow and Mrs. Ledlow told him she had heard the story from Kathy Collins and Kathy had heard it from another friend that Darlene didn’t know. Salinas tracked down Kathy Collins.
Ms. Collins stated she heard the story from friend named Paula Radcliffe and gave Salinas Paula address phone number. When Salinas went to the address provided by Ms. Collins he realized it was the house right across the street from Kenneth Frank’s close friend Bobby Brem. During his interview with Ms. Radcliffe she told Salinas she had heard the story from Bobby Brem and Bobby had told her he had heard it from a girl that had seen Kenneth in this truck at Koehne Park. With that Salinas went across the street and talked to Bobby Brem. Bobby told him that he had heard the story from Mary Padilia, she had told him she had seen Kenneth in this truck at Koehne Park not N. 19th and Park Lane and Bobby though Mary had told him the truck was silver. Next Salinas went to Mary Padilia’s address but she wasn’t home so he left his card asking her to call. When Mary called Salinas was out but she did call back the following day while she was at work.
Again Mary Padilia told Salinas see had seen Kenneth at N. 19th and Park Lane. Salinas informed her that he had received information from Bobby Brem, whom Mary state was a good friend, and he had said that Mary had told him she saw Kenneth at Koehne Park. Then Mary Padilia again denied this but added she had been at Koehne Park later about 9:30 p.m. but she had not seen Kenneth at this time. She had never said anything about being at Koehne Park before. Salinas asked her to come to the station so the could discuss this matter in confidence, Mary Padilia said she would come in on Sunday September 5.
Lessons to be learned from the story of Mary Padilia; the first one that comes to mind if you are keeping track is Mary Padilia was the girl Salinas mentioned in his last report before the case was suspended on September 3 when he stated that the last thing he had to do was talk to a witness he had talked to first on July 27 and she hadn’t been completely truthful. This is a prime example why it is vital to be clear and precise when writing reports. Salinas didn’t talk to Mary on July 27 it was July 26, he probably should have just wrote he needed to talk to Mary Padilia again. As anyone that follows this case knows, files, reports and evidence can get lost and/or damaged you don’t know what you could use down the road or what will still be available again that’s why it’s important that everything properly purveys the information it’s meant to provide.
Mary Padilia’s story just as Rusty Escott’s had circulated around so much before the police ever heard about it. In Rusty’s case it went from Tony Shaw whom had heard it directly from Rusty to Robert Spikes and finally to Scott Johnson whom went to the police with this information. The trail of Mary Padilia’s information was much longer from Bobby Brem all the way to Mr. Sockwell. All these accounts are at least second hand and are nothing more than hearsay but they are so far away from second hand information it is only considered hearsay in the fact that some one did hear some one say this. When information or a story passes through so many people that it can’t even be considered second hand maybe there should be another term than hearsay, There is it’s called rumor. Each step information is removed from the original source the facts become more distorted and the more the steps it can become so distorted that the information becomes unreliable to the point it is totally useless.
We must also consider the original source and why didn’t they just go to the police in the first place. If they were telling other people they definitely wanted to talk about it why not give that information to the people that could do the most with it and would serve a good purpose. And you have to think if this information is going around and not going to the proper people it could get back to the person that the information would most harm and they could react in one way or another and it also gives them time and time works against investigators and resolution could be lost forever.
Responding to question by R7236 re Robert Frueh: I knew Robert as a teacher and a minister–before his move to Waco. He was kind to me and several other kids I knew, dedicated to his church and helping folks. I always figured him for gay–though I think at that time he have been trying desperately not to be gay. Very sad. And he wasn’t involved in drugs–perhaps the key issue in terms of who he became.
Thank you dm957 for responding. It does sound as though his life changed drastically after his move to Waco.
He used and abused young people according to reports from the 80’s.
Sad !
Careless Whispers or Contrived Convictions 
Mrs. Thompson, a lady with few words but so much wisdom, apparently I’m the polar opposite I write plenty of words and we have sent a search team to find some wisdom but they haven’t recovered any yet. With that said, I have plenty to say in response to your last reply. First I would say for some one like me you are some one involved in this case, though you didn’t take an active role (testify) in the trials, you were there, you are family, you have an inside view few could ever have. You know there are so many areas an outsider like myself can never touch but they are always in the back of my mind, those family interactions through this whole tragedy, the difference between how the victims families have dealt with this, the feelings has exist between the families that are forever connected by this atrocity. I guess you could consider those things curiosity and do nothing towards finding the truth. But trying to understand the doubts some one with such an intimate connection to the case, I do have some questions for you,
Mrs. Thompson I understand you have been mislead over the years, I have seen it in many of the news articles I read, journalists with biased views misrepresenting the facts. People like Fred Dannen claiming he has all the answers and can prove everything, I hope he still writes his book even if he doesn’t get the truth he was so sure about when he began. I know Mr. Dannen talked to the families and played the confession tapes for them, were you privy to that? With being mislead by these people has it given you a different view on things pertaining to this case? I also know Anthony Melendez has corresponded with the victims families professing his innocence and has garnered some sympathy, did anyone from the family ever ask him direct questions? What were his answers? You have met these people, seen them through the trials and with that you can get a feeling about a person, that gut feeling or intuition. How did you feel about Mr. Franks, Gayle Kelly, Christine Juhl, Clifford Oliver, David Spence, Muneer Deeb, Anthony Melendez, Gilbert Melendez, Kareem Quasim, Kebana Reed, Truman Simons, Ramon Salinas, Dennis Baier? In the aftermath and all that has transpired since the original convictions have your thoughts and feelings changed? What about Carlton Stowers, you talked to him while he was gathering information for his book, you have expressed your doubts about the convictions, Mr. Stowers was 100% convinced of their guilt, far more so than I would think most people even those like myself that still feel they got the right guys, and I would guess he still believes in this. What did you feel about him? And now that your views are probably in conflict with those of his has that changed your initial feelings about him? Do you ever talk to him?
I definitely would like to talk to some of the people that were involved with this case, I have plenty of questions. For me, again reminding you I feel the original convictions were correct, I know the case was weak, any case without physical evidence is, it’s not rather Spence, Deeb and the Melendez brothers are guilty, and depending on what can be found there might be others, it’s just finding that “MISSING LINK” that puts everything together, I feel some one out there holds the key to that. But how can we get that conversation started? I’m trying that’s what this was all about, I admit I’m failing but I’m not going to give up. I probably should take a cue from you and keep things short, and just ask a few questions per post.
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Is there anyway I can private message you?
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Mrs. Thompson I thought I would answer the questions you asked me with your private message here so you can see everything is above board and I’m not trying to hide anything. I don’t have a problem nor did I ever with given my name on this site or telling you who I am. I thought and I guess I was mistaken, that after I had messaged you on facebook about a year ago you would know who I was so I didn’t see how or what other information I could give that could prove that. I didn’t realize you hadn’t seen that message. So there is no misunderstanding, I will put the same information I gave you here so everyone can see. My name is Brian Lewis, I’m 48 and live outside of Cambridge Maryland.
I have never had any contact with anybody that has anything to do with this case, not Truman Simons, Carlton Stowers, Fred Dannen or Vic Feazell. I would love to talk to many people that were involved with this case, I have so many questions I would ask. In regards to Michael Hall, which I have stated before I have never had any contact with him but I did make comments on-line about his article. Whomever was in control of the site that carried his article deleted some of my comments, specifically when I posted the response Mr. Feazell’s attorney made to Mr. Hall’s article which Mr. Hall decided not to publish. Remember Mr. Hall made the statement in that article that Mr. Feazell did not wish to comment or make a statement, that wasn’t true. When I pointed that out and the hypocrisy of someone claiming to be looking for the truth but printing lies my comments were deleted and as you can surely check on now the comment section of that article has been closed so people can no longer make comments. Mrs. Thompson it was this that gave me the idea to try to start a site where people could talk about the case. Any and all information I have gotten on this case is from what I have read either from Mr. Stowers’ book, police reports, trial testimony and news articles.
Mrs Thompson I understand that you would have a difficult time understanding why some just average joe off the street would be so interested in this case and spend so much time following it and reading about it. All I can say is maybe it has something to do with the internet age in which we live these days. Back when I read the book back in the 80’s I never thought over thirty years later I would still be interested in this case. It did stick with me and when the internet launched in 1993 and I saw the articles about Muneer Deeb winning his appeal and re-trial, I remembered the case from what I had read in the book. I must say I was shocked he got to walk free. Then I started seeing the articles that were questioning David Spence’s guilt, mostly written by those that are opposed to the death penalty, as I am. Though I wish our country would do away with the death penalty, in our quest to abolish the death penalty we can’t forget the truth. I’m afraid this may be happening with this case, I see it in the articles or opinion pieces, sometimes I wonder were they are getting their information or are they just making things up. Many crimes have found their place on the internet, there are boards or communities or sites whatever you would like to call them dedicated to particular cases, actually I’ve been to many of these sites and that helped put the idea in my head. This case, The Lake Waco Murders, should have it’s own place. There were so many things that were left undone or questions left unanswered.
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Mrs. Thompson you mentioned DNA, as you know I always doubted the DNA evidence was ever going to prove anything, I try not to get into the graphic details of the crime but to better explain my thoughts I guess I have to. The girls were sexually assaulted but no foreign or questionable body fluids were found in or on their bodies, M.E.’s obvious conclusion either a condom or foreign object was used. Body fluids left on or in the body of a victim is conclusive evidence anyone would have a hard time trying to explain that away. But this was not the kind of DNA that was tested, hairs that were in the bindings of the victims were found, and unlike it has been reported many times there were no foreign pubic hairs found. I’m trying to print a copy of the M.E.’s report so this can be clearly shown but I’m having a hard time doing so, what I would suggest for anyone that is interested go look at that report it’s online. There will be four mentions of pubic hairs;
Line 12 Pubic Hair Combings- 82p1633 K9
Line 13 Pubic Hair Combings- 82p1632 K8
Line 25 Known Pubic Hairs- Jill Montgomery K9
Line 27 Known Pubic Hair- Raylene Rice K11
Translation for those that might not understand the pubic hairs described; on lines 25 and 27 were hairs the M.E. plucked from the girls bodies to use for comparison against the hairs mentioned on lines 12 and 13 that were on the girls bodies but were not attached or became loose during the combing. Line 12 is self explanatory the hair on line 12 match K(which denotes known unlike U, UK or Q with denotes unknown or questionable) 9 which is Jill Montgomery. Line 13 is a little harder to explain but still seeing it listed as K tells us it’s origin is known it’s listed a K8, the only other article listed as K8 is Jill’s Head Hair. Whatever question there may be about these hairs the report clearly shows there are no pubic hairs of questionable or unknown origin. Also if you look at the report you will see Fred Dannen’s name these were the articles he paid to have tested. I’ve stated many times before why hairs that were found in the bindings would not conclusively prove anyone’s innocence it could only show otherwise so I won’t repeat. With some of the other DNA collected, there was blood found in David’s car but it was such a minut amount at the time it couldn’t be determined if it was human and animal, again that couldn’t prove innocence the only thing that would be conclusive is if it was found to be the victim’s blood,
I know I was suppose to keep this short and have a question, I can’t even stick to my own program. But here’s my question; there were many other items found and collected by the police from different parks around the lake, the items I’m wondering about were collected at Airport Park. The police obtained information that a Henry Landers had heard a terrifying scream behind the boathouse at Airport Park. A couple officers went and did a search around the area, I would have to look up whom the two officers were but for some reason I think it was Salinas and Fortune maybe. They found a bloody knife, a empty condom wrapper, a used condom, a Budweiser beer can, a Coor’s beer can. a small bottle, like one used for syringes, with an unknown substance inside and a broken table leg. The officers didn’t think the knife could have been the knife used in the murders but they bagged it and tagged it and I guess it ended up in some evidence locker. Now knowing what we do know about this case, are those articles still around and can they be tested for DNA?
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Is there anyway I can private message you? I was told by T Simons that a knife had been found but when they started to check it out it had disappeared. Simons stated that Salinas was the one who found it. Is this the same knife you spoke of? Simons remarked ” it wasn’t the murder weapon anyway !” However, he didn’t explain how he knew it wasn’t.
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Will you email me? jbt0630@gmail.com
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Yes Ma’am, you can contact me anyway you would like. I’m not very computer savvy, here’s my email address bbb2359@yahoo.com. I must say I don’t check my email too often, it’s usually just junk, spam and trash!!! I know I messaged you one time before on facebook. I will do this again, look for my message in your other inbox.
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Mrs. Thompson, there were many knives the police checked out or collected. One the Van Horn brothers found July 14 off Speegleville Road, it was a butcher knife and didn’t look to have any blood on it, Nicoletti and Texas Ranger Wiley collected this knife. A subject by the name of Mike Sutton, someone whom had talked to police about this case gave his boss, Mr. Montoya, a knife to hold, Mr. Montoya called the police about this knife, Salinas checked this out. Salinas also checked out a knife that belonged to a Jimmy Don Lewis, it was a brass knife and Salinas didn’t think this could have been the knife. I don’t think Salinas took these knives. An ex-police officer from the Woodway PD, Officer Landrine, was out jogging by Highway 84 and found a knife, Salinas collected this knife.
I mixed up a couple things again. The police did get information about a Henry Landers hearing a scream behind the Bass Clubhouse at Airport Park. On July 27 Salinas and Fortune went out to Airport Park and checked the area but didn’t find anything. On July 26 a Robert Lewis brought a knife to the police station and gave it to Officer Lilliard at the dispatcher’s Office. He told the officer he found the knife July 25 while he was hunting out at Veterans Park. When he found the knife it had blood on it but he had taken the knife home and cleaned it before he brought it into the station. He also saw a used condom where he found the knife.The next day, July 27, Nicoletti and Deputy Abraham contacted Mr. Lewis and went out to Veterans Park where Mr. Lewis had found the knife, which was below the bridge that spans the North Bosque River on Highway 185. There they found the other items I mentioned, they called Special Investigator Lyon to come take photographs of everything and everything was dusted for prints. Salinas and Fortune were shown this knife and they didn’t think it could have been the knife used, so the items were placed in the property room. This is the knife along with the others items I’m talking about.
I know Veterans Park and Highway 185 are at the north end of the lake and away from the areas associated with this case but Anthony did state at one time he threw things from the car as they were driving over a bridge, of coarse the obvious choice was the twin bridges on Highway 6 and I would guess if the lake was ever searched this would have been the area checked and I don’t think anything was ever found. Did they ever check other areas of the lake? I know a lot of people point to Anthony not being able to accurately describe the details of that night as that’s a sign of his innocence. Whom does it benefit not knowing all the details of what happened that night? Surely not law enforcement or the prosecutors or the victims families. Killers saying they are cooperating and being honest often are not. They lie and mislead. Just to name a few other killers that said they were helping police and giving them information about their crimes but were lying and misleading police; Ted Bundy, Henry Lee Lucas, Susan Atkins, actually it’s not uncommon.
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Many of the girls from the Methodist Home reported Muneer Deeb gave them marijuana and some even stated he gave them pills. Giving teenage girls drugs sounds like it could be a crime, why didn’t the police do anything about this? And maybe a better question whom was supplying Deeb with these drugs?
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I was told there were several times when The Rainbow Store was off limits to the children from the M home. I do not know how well that restriction was handled by either Deeb or the home.
Deeb also gave them sodas, chips, and cigarettes.
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Mrs. Thompson, if I’m not mistaken this was after all this happened, once the staff of the Home became aware of what was going on when girls like Lisa Kader started talking. Prior to July 15 the girls from the Methodist Home were in that store all the time according to many people including Kareem and Maria Quasim. Maria was not happy at all about the situation and I don’t think she was even aware of the drugs, she just didn’t like these girls coming around and how Deeb and maybe to some point her husband treated them. Once the staff got wind of all this the Rainbow Drive-In was off limits. Don’t forget Lisa Kader and Faye Pearson both met David Spence at the store while they lived at the home, Dolores Perez, another girl from Home testified she considered Deeb a good friend because he was always nice to her and gave her things. Gayle and Deeb’s relationship wasn’t an isolated incident, it was a culture that was created at that Home.
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I know they dusted for prints on Raylene’s Pinto and they found a few, did they ever find or try to find prints that matched? Did they dust Clifford Oliver’s car for prints?
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I was told the only prints identified on the pinto was Richard Franks. Can’t remember about C Olivers’ car.
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Mrs. Thompson what did you think about Clifford Oliver, did you find him believable? I was reading the transcript of his Grand Jury Testimony again this weekend, there’s a troubling example of American jurisprudence if there ever was one. I can’t understand why Clifford Oliver wasn’t arrested right on the spot for perjury. Mrs. Thompson I’m not sure how familiar or how much you remember about the Grand Jury Testimony, so I’ll just go over some of the hot spots.
Clifford Oliver had taken off to California with Terry Gutierrez in August after the police found out about the insurance scam they were trying to pull off with his car. He returned to Waco just in time to report to the Navy October 1. He returned to Waco after boot camp, roughly mid-December. It was during this time that three people Josie Scionti(?), Diane and Harold Windham called crime stoppers and talked to police or Truman Simons. They reported that Clifford had taken them to where the murders had occurred at Koehne Park and where the bodies were left at Spleegleville Park. Clifford Denied this saying that these people were just trying to frame him so they could collect the reward that was being offered. I guess it depends whom you want to believe but if those people did in fact know the locations, someone had to show them and they said it was Clifford Oliver, the same Clifford Oliver that was with David Spence at least in the early AM hours of July 14. If this isn’t troubling enough there’s plenty more.
This Josie girl was the girl Clifford was seeing before he took off to California. She would also state that she went out to Speegleville park with Clifford and David the day after the bodies were discovered. Again Clifford denied this, he said he only saw David one time after July 14 and that was at the Northwood apartments and he was with Josie at that time, they never went to the park.
Clifford testified the reason Harold and the girls called him that night in December was because they knew he was friends with David and the talk around town was David was a suspect in the murders. I would have to question that, to this day most of the officers that investigated this case still say they don’t believe Spence was a viable suspect including Salinas, Horton and Fortune. Outside of Simons no one was looking at Spence at that time (December 1982) so how could it have been the talk around town, it only became the talk around the people Clifford knew because he gave them information.
Simons set up a day to talk to Clifford, Clifford did not show up that day. It looks like he went and talked to Cal Frazier to get their stories straight, again Clifford denied this, he said he went and talked to Cal after he talked to Simons.
During his testimony to the Grand Jury about what he did July 13 and 14, at first he did not mention he had gone to Koehne Park the night of July 13 it wasn’t until he was talking about the morning of July 14 then he said he just remember he and Cal had gone to Koehne Park that night and saw three guys in a truck that they tried to get a joint from. He never described the truck or three guys, maybe Spence and the Melendez brothers in Gilbert’s truck? Then only a couple sentences later Clifford says it was he and Todd that went to the park. One could question if he was talking about another time but both Clifford and Todd stated they had just met each other, their trip to the park had to be that night.
Clifford gives the details of what the guys did the morning of July 14. According to him, they followed David take Christine to work at 7am and then David dropped his car off across the street. From there they drove to Midway Park to pick up his car that he had left the night before. So they drop Cal and David off at the Dairy Queen and Clifford, Todd and John go to Todd’s house so Clifford can call the police about his car, when he does he finds his car has been taken to the impound lot on LaSalle. The guys pick up Cal and David and then go to the impound to get Clifford’s car. After this Todd and John went home, Clifford, Cal and David went to Koehne Park and drank a couple beers, Clifford says they got there between 8:30am and 9:am and that is when he saw the orange Pinto and that they were sitting on picnic table by that car. Is this timeline believable? The police were at Koehne Park checking out the Pinto around 9:00am that morning. Clifford didn’t see any police or vice versa.
Really is Clifford Oliver the one telling the truth here?
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Smith is a very common name but some Smith’s are related, there are four Smith’s whose names come up in regards to this case that I find interesting. Do they have any connection to each other or this case?
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An Informant told police he saw a yellow Cadillac pull into a car wash about 3:00am July 14. The car had blood on the door and fender, the driver said he had hit a dog, the informant thought it was strange because he didn’t see any damage to this car. He didn’t know the driver’s name but he had seen him around and knew he hung around with David Wilkins. yes of the same Wilkins clan that hung out with Tab Harper. The police tracked down a yellow Cadillac belonging to a Steven Smith but couldn’t find any trace of blood on the car. End of the yellow Cadillac story? The day Christine and Deeb got into the argument Doris Tucker reported and testified about, Christine was in a yellow Cadillac. She was trying to help her friend Sharon get this car through inspection, it needed a headlight, this is why Christine stopped by the store to borrow $10. She got the money from Kareem, when she went back to return the money Kareem was gone and Deeb was there and that’s when the argument ensued. Was this Sharon trying to get this yellow Cadillac through inspection because a transfer of ownership? And back then whom would turn to Christine Juhl for help, she couldn’t even help herself. All I know is a lot of people that were connected to this case were getting rid of their cars shortly after the murders. David traded his Malibu, Clifford Oliver was trying to make his car disappear, the Gutierrez brothers wrecked their car in August and when the police talked to James the car was gone. Another question about that car. Mr. Franks took video of this car but said it belonged to a white male and a Hispanic male, did anyone ever look at the video he took? Deeb got rid of his triumph and got a T-bird.
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Do you know who got the little sports car that belonged to Deeb? T Simons told me that he had it at his house (????)
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Mrs. Thompson no I don’t know what happened to Deeb’s Triumph. Are you implying Simons bought the car? Or that he just got a hold of the car at sometime and kept it at his house. There are many questionable things one would have to admit that Truman Simons did. I know I don’t give him as hard a time as I give others that investigated this case that’s mainly due to the fact that there are already so many others that do that.
That is the problem with Simons and I guess the whole investigation in general. In the hands of the police and the police department any investigation would follow protocols and procedures, that all went out the window once Simons left the Waco PD and did his own investigation.
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All I know about the Triumph is Simons told me he had wanted to have a good look at it and it was at his house.
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Mrs. Thompson I guess the question becomes, are we sure where Deeb was that night? Apparently Simons wasn’t.
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The night the murders occurred a Alfred Smith came to the ER with a hand injury, he told the staff that it was a fishing accident, that he had fallen down an embankment and punctured his hand on a pole. The doctor thought the puncture was too clean to be that kind of injury, he thought it had been caused by a knife and called the police thinking about the murders that had happened that night. That’s all on this character.
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Det Salinas got information from Bellmead PD Detective Hix about a subject named Bennie Smith, Hix had come into contact with this subject because he had abandoned his car at an apartment complex. His car was a dark gold Monte Carlo, a gold or brown Monte Carlo was seen at the park the night of the murders. Hix told Salinas he needed to talk to a girl by the name of Kim Lauderdale. Kim Lauderdale told Salinas that Bennie had told her he knew whom killed the kids. Kim described Bennie as 5-8, slender build, brown curly hair and 19 or 20 yoa.
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On August 3 Salinas talked to a Glenda Mailly, she told him she was at the park March 15, a friend of her’s had just passed and she just wanted to be alone. While she was there this strange guy walked up behind her, she was harsh with this guy and told him to get away from her but then she thought that this guy had more problems than she did and they talked. He made comments that he hated the teenagers that hung out at the park because they made fun of him and he felt he could kill them sometimes. This strange guy was a Daniel Smith, Ms. Mailly described him as 5-7, 130 pounds, brown curly hair, wide eyes, fair complexion, about 20yoa. Salinas tracked down this Daniel Smith and went to his place of employment, well his former place of employment he had been fired July 3. Daniel Smith had a blue Grand Prix, a blue car was seen at the park that night actually parked next to the Pinto with two guys talking to the girls. This Daniel Smith’s parents were from Bellmead. Daniel’s former boss Patsy Cummings told Salinas she had talked to Jimmy Morgan from the Bellmead PD on July 15 about Daniel. Remember Debbie Cunningham was at the park the night of July 13 and she reported a strange guy walked up behind the truck she was in and then up to the window, when the guy Debbie was with reached under the seat like he was getting something this stranger ran away. The description she gave of this stranger 5-6 to 5-8, 150 pounds, early 20’s and clean shaven no beard or mustache. Mr. Stowers in his book wrote Debbie was lying about the description and the guy she saw did have a beard and mustache and that it was David Spence. Why would Debbie lie? But don’t these descriptions sound familiar or similar and there seems to be a connection with Bellmead with both Bennie and Daniel.
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I would like to clear up a few things I posted the other day. I had posted I couldn’t remember which girl reported what with Donna Olsen and Mary Padilla. Donna Olsen was the girl that went to the funeral and told police about the boat being gone and also about the comment Mr. Franks made to John Ashley about the bodies being found where he use to go camping. Mary Padilla was the girl that reported seeing Kenneth Franks the night of July 13 riding around with two guys in a silver truck.
Also about the blood found in David Spence’s Malibu, there were three spots found. There was blood on the passenger armrest that test could not determine if it was human or animal. Then there was blood on the carpet near the passenger door and on the passenger seat belt both were found to be human blood but the blood type could not be determined.
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Thank you for your response. I appreciate knowing who I am talking with.
Another question : during your research, did you come across DeAnna Storts Pate interview? I have always believed her information. She passed away in 2001 taking a lot of the truth with her (in my opinion).
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Mrs. Thompson, yes I know DeAnna Storts was the girl that reported seeing Kenneth in the maroon Lincoln with Robert Frueh. This car came and left the park a number of times, she states she saw Kenneth leave the park in this car. About 45 minutes later the car returned which would have been approximately 9:45pm to 10:00pm and she did not see Kenneth at that time. If I’m not mistaken Ricky Pate didn’t have much information to give, he confirmed he was in the park with DeAnna that night but he really couldn’t remember much. He did say that DeAnna had told him she knew the victim, Kenneth Franks, and that she remembered seeing him at the park that night. There’s a lot to look at here and I think this one witness and report gives us an overall view how this investigation was handled right from the beginning.
Apparently DeAnna called crime stoppers the first time early on maybe July 16, I’m not sure on the date but DeAnna didn’t have a home phone so it looks like she called from work, she worked at the Red Cross during the week and that’s where Sgt. Holstien would call her Tuesday July 20. The whole idea of setting up a hotline (crimestoppers) so people could call in tips was kind of a new thing and you can see many times in this case the dissemination of this information was not as speedy or smoothly transferred as one would expect. What’s the use of setting up a hotline if you’re not going to share that information ASAP? This was especially true after the case was suspended, Just thinking of Doris Tucker as one example, how long did it take any law enforcement officer to talk to her once she called? There were a few others also but even after they suspended the case they did so with the stipulation the case was suspended but they would check out any new information or new tips if and when they came in. I think people calling crime stoppers constitutes new information or tips. Apparently when DaAnna called crime stoppers she mentioned the maroon Lincoln but it is not mentioned in the report Sgt. Holstien types about the phone conversation she had with DeAnna. In this report Holstien states DeAnna told her that DeAnna and Rick got to the park approximately 9:15, DeAnna knew the time because she had looked at her watch as they pulled into the park. She states she talked to Kenneth, just a simple hi how you doing and he responded, DeAnna says Kenneth was in the front passenger seat, she gave no description of the two girls. She knew Kenneth because he had dating one of DeAnna’s friends named Michelle Lewis that lived at the same apartment complex on Rambler, DeAnna in apartment #7 and Michelle in apartment #5. DeAnna also stated that she and Rick left to go get something to eat and were gone about 20 minutes and when they returned she saw the Pinto again. DeAnna states she and Rick left the park around 11:00pm, this was the one fact Rick was able to confirm because he said he got home about 11:15pm. That’s all the information Holstien gives in this report.
About three weeks later DeAnna calls crime stoppers again, when she had called the first time she didn’t know the license plate number of the maroon Lincoln but now she had it and that’s when they tracked it down to Robert Frueh. Remember Ronald Robinson had also stated he saw Robert Frueh in the park that night and Ronald also said he saw some guy bring the Pinto into Koehne park about 1:00am, this guy was picked up and then a few minutes later the Lincoln pulled in right behind the Pinto.
DeAnna wasn’t contacted again until November 17, Salinas noticed that she was talked to over the phone before but no one ever interviewed her in person, so he calls her up and sets up an appointment for November 19. Mrs. Thompson I know I’m hard on Salinas at times, this is a prime example why. There were many leads and/or tips left unchecked when the decision was made to suspend this case, a decision he took part in. It’s crystal clear he along with the other investigators working the case missed many things, no one can blame them for that, it’s unfortunate, we don’t like it and no one can be happy about it but unfortunately it does happen. The officers were working long hours, getting tons of calls and information, a lot of it misleading, and they had to track all that down, so things were missed it was a mistake, Salinas needs to man up and admit that, we couldn’t hold it against him. But he does the total opposite I see him making statements or being quoted in article after article, stuff like how he never found anything that pointed to any of the defendants, he didn’t look, there were a lot of things he missed and it’s not true, the police were told Muneer Deeb killed Kenneth Franks because of Gayle Kelly on July 19 but not one officer talked to Deeb nor asked Gayle Kelly about Deeb when they talked to her until Simons and Baier did so in September after the investigation was suspended. These same articles keep mentioning Tab Harper as the most likely perpetrator of these murders, Salinas knows this is not true but he never dispels this notion, he allows this falsehood or rumor to persist if not straight out encouraging it. Articles keep stating many people reported seeing Tab’s black van at the park and the kids get in the van. Salinas tracked these stories down, he spend the majority of the month and a half he was lead investigator on this lead. And what did he find? Only one person said he saw the van at the park that night and everybody else that had reported this heard the story from this one guy and this guy, Rusty Escott had a reputation of telling stories and when Salinas finally realized this and confronted Rusty he changed his story. Rusty had told people he had seen the kids get into the van, later he told police he just saw the kids standing by the van talking to Tab and finally he told Salinas he saw the van but never saw the kids. Do you ever see Salinas ever say anything about this in the papers he’s so willing to talk in. Salinas does nothing to this day other than add more confusion into a case that’s already so messed up. And I know I’m just speculating here but how it looks to me an outsider. Doesn’t it seem strange Salinas suspended the case in the beginning of September and you don’t see him do anything in regards to this case again until November, it as been reported the DA prior to Vic Feazell, I think his name was Reyna, wasn’t interested in the information Simons had gathered and wouldn’t do anything with it but then he lost his re-election bid to Feazell, part of Feazell’s platform was to bring to justice the people that were responsible for the Lake Murders. With this change in the political climate it looks like Salinas starts to go over the files again and looking into some of the things he left undone or missed originally. If nothing else Simons should get credit for proving and bringing to light there were many things the original investigators missed, he kept the case open.
Now back to DeAnna, She came to the police station on November 19 and was interviewed by Salinas. The information she gave was a little different this time or at least put in the report that way. Now she states she and Rick got to the park about 7:00pm. She now adds that she saw one of the girls in the back passenger side seat, she said this was a blonde hair girl. Again she does say she saw Kenneth about 9:15pm but now she says this in when she saw him in the maroon Lincoln leaving the park and that the Lincoln came back about 45 minutes later and Kenneth was not in the car at that time. She gave the same time of 11:00pm as the time she and Rick left the park. It was decided DeAnna should go under hypnosis and a session was set up for the next day November 20. She gave the same information under hypnosis. With this information Salinas and Baier brought in Robert Frueh for an interview on November 22, remind you Robert Frueh’s name had come up a few times before in this investigation yet again he was another subject no one had talked to questioned or interviewed up until this time. The officers felt Robert Frueh wasn’t being honest with them, so they asked if he would go under hypnosis, Robert Frueh lawyered up. And just one of those strange little connections this case has so many of; the lawyer he hired was the same lawyer the Melendez family tried to hire after David Cherry didn’t want to represent Gilbert and Anthony’s lawyer advised Anthony to plead guilty because that lawyer doubted his innocence, that lawyer being one Lou Bright. That would be the last we would hear of Robert Frueh and DeAnna Storts for that matter.
Mrs Thompson along the lines of people the police put under hypnosis, in the trial files they list 9 people as being placed under hypnosis by police between July 22(?) through November 30. Most the names I’m familiar with their names are in the reports but there’s one I can’t find anything on, I haven’t seen her name in any of the reports, it doesn’t look like she ever testified in any of the trials. Her name is Josephine Marie Laskach, do you know anything about her? The only Josephine I see mentioned anywhere in this case is the Josie, taking that’s short for Josephine, Clifford Oliver dated but he states her last name as Scionti, was he just wrong about her last name or lying? It would make since this Josie being Josephine because she did talk to Simons at some point, in Clifford’s Grand Jury testimony he makes it sound like she talked to Simons while Clifford was home in December but if this was the Josephine that was placed under hypnosis by police it couldn’t have been any later than November 30. Also it would make sense if she talked to Simons after he left the police department in October and before the task force was set up when Vic Feazell got into office, we wouldn’t see her name in the police reports, Simons kept his own notes at that time. So when did Josie talk to Simons and what did she have to say at that time? If she is the Josephine that was placed under hypnosis she must of had something very interesting to say.
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Mrs Thompson, I really can’t say what information Mr. Dannen has, it looks to me he was placing all is hope in the DNA testing, he spent his own money on the testing. Mrs. Thompson anyone can look at the information or police reports and cobble together a compelling case against any number of suspects, many would say that’s what the state did against Spence, Deeb and the Melendez brothers. I know Mr. Dannen is one of the many that believe Tab Harper is responsible for these murders and has been pushing that theory. I think he was hoping one of those hairs that was in the bindings would be Tab Harper’s then he could hash out the rest of his theory from the information he gathered.
The problem I see with Mr. Dannen’s plan to prove Harper’s guilt is Mr. Dannen is still trying to connect Harper’s van to the crime, I think he even tracked down that van. There is no reliable information that the van was at the park or any of the parks around the lake that night. Again this information came from one source – Rusty Escott – someone that had a history and reputation as being a story teller. a fact Salinas found out the hard way when Escott kept changing his story when he was interviewed. There is only one other reported sighting of Harper in Koehne Park during the evening of July 13, I want to put this in the proper context and you can make of it what you will like.
Around midnight on July 20 Captain Sullins(?) of the Waxahachie PD called Detective Salinas and informed him that an informant had reported that a bike gang called the Scorpions were claiming responsibility for murders. Salinas trying to track this biker gang down had one obvious person he needed to talk to based on information he had at that time. On July 19 Salinas and Fortune found the run away Rebecca DesMarias staying with a biker by the name of Robert Wulf. On July 20 Gayle Kelly, while she was being interviewed by Nicoletti stated Kenneth Franks only had dealings with the bikers through Rebecca DesMarias. Salinas thought Rebecca DesMarias might have information about this bike gang. On July 27 Salinas and Fortune pick up Rebecca DesMarias, bring her to the station and interview her again. Salinas asks her if the people (bikers) that hang around the bike shop on North 18th Street are called the Scorpions. Rebecca says she doesn’t know but she has a friend, Carren Ritchie, that is a friend to a guy that works at the shop named Angel. The officers track down Carren Ritchie later that same day.
Getting an accurate read on the interview with Carren Ritchie is a little difficult and again how Salinas writes his reports doesn’t help. It seems Carren wasn’t being that cooperative and was forth coming with much information, you think that would just add suspicion on these bikers. The report states Carrie said she didn’t know Angel that well, she did know if Angel was his real name or just a nickname she din’t know his last name. She did say she had seen Rebecca DesMarias at Flat Rock Park July 23 and Rebecca DesMarias had told her the police had questioned her about the murders but Rebecca told her that she didn’t say anything because she didn’t know anything. While Salinas and Fortune were questioning Carren another girl came to the apartment and if Carren Ritchie wasn’t giving up much this girl was a whirl wind of information, her name Kathy Prochnow.
Apparently this Kathy Prochnow had lived at the Methodist Home she knew both Kenneth and Jill, she claimed she had actually met Raylene before when she had come to Waco months before with Jill. Then here comes the kicker, she states she was in Koehne Park July 13 from 7:30pm until 9:00pm with Carren and Angel and another biker she only knew by the name of Fingers. She claimed she saw the orange Pinto come into the park with Kenneth and the two girls. Then here comes the problem she didn’t talk to the kids nor could she give any other information about what she saw at the park that night, i.e. other cars other people. Her reason they just drove through the park. So was she at the park the hour and a half 7:30 to 9:00 or did she just drive through or was she there at all? Either way neither girl as mentioned Tab Harper according to the report Carren never said anything about being at the park that night at all. Salinas and Fortune next talk to Angel.
Here’s what the report says about what this Angel said; he was at the park Tuesday night when the girls said. He saw Harper messing around with the kids but he did not see if he was in a car or van or whatever, he doesn’t associate with him and didn’t attempt to. That statement there is the only other reported sighting of Tab Harper in the park that night. You can see the problem with Angel’s statement, he’s only agreeing to information that he believes the police already have or that the girls told them, he says he was in the park when the girls said they were, Carren Ritchie never said she was in the park and Kathy said she was there 7:30 until 9:00 then she said she had just rode through. Was Angel being cooperative or was he just going along with what he was told to avoid any discrepancies?
Mrs. Thompson this information is never going to change, these are the only two reported sightings of Tab Harper in Koehne Park on the night of July 13, anyone Fred Dannen or whomever are going to have a very difficult time making any realistic case against Tab Harper on this information and that is all that is there, but this looks like the path Mr. Dannen has been traveling. Anyone that wants to connect and make a case that Harper is the killer, and you know I’m not on that boat I just keep it in sight in case I do want to get on if I see it’s going in the right direction, has to shift their focus from Koehne Park to Midway Park and you can immediately see the problems and questions that will arise.
A couple things on this, you know early on there was some though that the bodies could have been transferred from Koehne Park to Speegeville Park by boat, in the end the prevailing belief was if the bodies were transferred by boat why not leave the bodies closer to the shore. Though the bodies were close to the water they were placed at the edge of the woods, these woods ran along the coastline of the lake but where the bodies were left whomever put them there, if they did so from a boat would have had to traverse these woods to place the bodies where they were found, why not just drop them off in the woods closer to the shoreline I agree with these conclusion. But there has always been a question that has been left unanswered, remember when Russ Hunt asked Jesse Ivy why would anyone tie up someone after they had killed them, Ivy answered he couldn’t explain sick behavior. The physical evidence clearly shows at least Jill’s hands were tied up after she was attacked she had defensive wounds on her right hand. So why would anyone tie bodies up after they have been killed? The grisly answer; you would tie the bodies up if you were planning to weigh their bodies down with something to drop in the lake. Again there are a lot of holes and questions with that line of thinking and not that I believe this is what happened. This is just what came to mind the first time I read the trial transcripts, I couldn’t believe Hunt asked that question, what answer did he really think he was going to get? An attorney shouldn’t ask a question in open court unless he reasonably believes he already knows the answer.
The sightings of Tab Harper being out at the lake reported he was seen on Wednesday July 14, the day the bodies were and at Midway Park it was reported he arrived in a boat not a van or car. At Koehne Park he arrived in a bronze colored Pinto with a guy named Lefty, whose left hand was bandaged and a Greg Cubbison that had recently gotten released from jail or prison. The M.E. stated in her report the assailant was probably left handed – “Lefty” and Gayle Kelly told police Kenneth was planning to make a big deal with someone that had just returned to Waco recently – Cubbison. Gayle also told police that Kenneth liked to party with Harper because he always had good drugs. I don’t know if the police ever tracked down this lefty and it looks, going by the trial files they only pulled Cubbison’s arrest record, they never interviewed or questioned him.
Mrs. Thompson earlier you stated you believed DeAnna Storts’ story or what she reported, I think she was telling the truth the only question is; how well did she know Kenneth Franks? She did state she did talk to him that night in passing so maybe this question doesn’t matter but she reported she met Kenneth through a friend that dated him and this girl lived at the Rambler apartments she gave the name Michelle Lewis. Kenneth Franks was dating a girl from that apartment at the time, many people stated this girl’s was name Michelle Schillings, the only other person to refer to this girl as Michelle Lewis was Tammie Boddie, Donnie Culp’s girlfriend. I’m taking it these two Michelles are the same girl unless there were two Michelles that lived in the same apartment and both dated Kenneth, one in the past and one at the time of the murders. Taking it that they are the same girl, Kenneth had only been seeing this girl for about a week and if DeAnna met him through this girl, as she told police was the case, it had to be within a of a week of the murders. Anyway out of all the people that reported seeing the kids that night none of them could accurately describe what the girls were wearing, The closest was Candyce Satterwhite whom under hypnosis said the blonde hair girl was wearing a purple and gray top Raylene was wearing a red and white top, playing with the shades of this girl’s memory you can get to red and white from purple and gray. Then there is one hypnosis session that was totally chilling, imagine standing there when this girl relates the information she has, she’s not lying she’s under hypnosis she is relaying what her mind remembers. The police believed this girl’s story before they placed her under hypnosis and one detail she gave during that session only added to that belief. I think she was one of the most reliable sources of information. Her name was Karen Hoskins, I know I’ve mentioned her before, but you just can’t over look what she said. Karen was at Midway Park not Koehne, she had gone water skiing with a married man named Mike McQueen, something neither Ms. Hoskins nor Mr. McQueen wanted to become public. What they reported was they had seen a boat out on the lake without any running lights on, McQueen added he saw the boat earlier at Koehne Park when they were skiing in that area. This boat was running about the lake without any lights after dark and Hoskins and McQueen were still at the boat ramp when this boat pulled in. There were three men, Hoskins could only describe two of them. I need to add a Shannon McAffrey also reported seeing this boat running without lights while she was skiing with her family, she was also at Midway Park. Though this information about the guys running around the lakes without lights is intriguing it’s by far not the highlight of what Ms. Hoskins had to say.
In her original statement to police Karen Hoskins states while she was sitting at the boat ramp at Midway Park she saw the orange Pinto, she saw a blonde hair girl driving and this girl was alone. She was shown a picture of Raylene Rice and Ms. Hoskins was positive this was the girl she had seen. She continued; this girl sat at the boat ramp for a while then would ride up to the store sit there for awhile then return to the boat ramp. Hoskins said this girl did this a few times, 4 or 5 times, she thought the girl was either waiting for some one or waiting for someone. One of the times this girl was waiting by the boat ramp a silver and black pick up pulled up to the orange Pinto and a girl and boy got out of the truck and went over and talked to the girl in the Pinto for a few minutes then left. Ms. Hoskins didn’t describe the girl and boy that got out of the truck. Finally when the boat that was running without it lights was loaded up and pulled off the girl in the Pinto pulled up behind them and began to follow them. From her vantage point Ms. Hoskins couldn’t see if the Pinto followed the truck with the boat out of the park.. This was her story, a story the police believed and for many reasons, Ms. Hoskins came forward even though she didn’t want anybody to know she was there with Mr. McQueen and why would anyone decide to come forward with information about Midway Park when with all the information that had been made public had to do with either Koehne Park or Speegleville Park. Feeling this was true and wondering if Karen Hoskins could provide any further information a hypnosis session was set up. Under hypnosis she gave the same information, she was asked was she sure it was Raylene Rice she had seen, Ms. Hoskins again was positive it was. She was asked could she describe what Raylene was wearing? Remember Ms. Hoskins had only seen Raylene in the car driving by a few times, so she could only see the top part of her body, Karen Hoskins answered it was a white with orange or brownish striped top!!! Of coarse that wasn’t the top Raylene was wearing but that is the description of the towel used to tie the victims up. Dozens of interviews with people that said they had seen the kids and Karen Hoskins under hypnosis was the only one that accurately described an article that was found on the girls when the bodies were discovered. At some point on the night of July 13 did Raylene Rice have that towel draped over her shoulders? Why does some one wrap a towel over their body? Maybe she had been out on the water?
Mrs. Thompson as usual I went a little off track but there is a point there somewhere. I don’t know if Mr. Dannen has found anything but there is plenty out there. What I’ve seen reported he was chasing down Tab Harper’s van and waiting for the DNA results, I feel that’s just an empty search. Mrs Thompson I do have a question for you; you said Mr. Dannen presenting things to the family and you believed him, may I ask what information he put out in front of the family? What was it he said or showed you that gave you belief in what he was saying. I know you said you didn’t talk to him anymore, I think I would express my disappointment with him. Like I said I hope he still writes his book even if this journey didn’t lead him the discovery he was looking for. As you ask how can he keep hiding out with information or case files, I don’t understand this at all. What does a liberal journalist do when he realizes the imaginary idealistic world he believes in doesn’t exist? I guess he runs down to Mexico and drowns his disappointments and the truth with tequila.
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I hav stated many times that I see NO resemblance between Jill and Gayle. Truman had told me “they look enough alike to be sisters” !! That is ridiculous !
As to the apartment, I just don’t believe a prediction of a 17 year old is possible. I DO KNOW that Jill was begging to stay at home after her July 4th visit. According to her Mother, Jill even acted like she was afraid to go back to Waco……..I am aware there was probably some kind of drug situation involved in all this. Some of the parents want to stick their head in the sand and try to hide their children being involved in anything on the “dark side”. I love Jill with all my heart but I know she had problems.
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Mrs. Thompson, again thank you, I think you hit the nail on the head with the drug situation, that has been my belief for a very long time, like more than 20 years, the problem has always been finding that piece of information that puts it’s all together. I feel a piece of information some one knows, I still lean towards Gayle Kelly, Christine Juhl and Clifford Oliver. Your insight about Jill’s mother saying that “Jill even acted like she was afraid to go back to Waco”, is very telling. I’m not sure if sharing my own unproven theory is a worthwhile pursuit, so feel free to be harsh and criticize.
It can’t be disputed there was bad blood between Kenneth Franks and Muneer Deeb and I think it’s safe to conclude Gayle Kelly had something to do with this but what was at the heart of this dispute? Was it a case of some messed up love triangle? Of coarse not, Gayle and Kenneth were both dating other people, Gayle was in love with Henry Reyes and Kenneth was seeing Michelle Schillings. And look at how Muneer Deeb acted in very similar situations where he liked girls but they rejected him and used him. I’m talking about Kebana Reed and Dana Diamond. Muneer Deeb was a weak little man, when these girls hurt him he didn’t go after the men in these girl’s lives, though he did tell Dana he was going to blow up her apartment while both she and her boyfriend Steve were there. he made threats to the girls, stalked the girls, that was his M.O., that’s not what we have in this case. It was something else that caused the bad blood between he and Kenneth Franks, with what information is out there something to do with drugs looks like the most probable cause.
I think a drug deal went bad between Kenneth Franks and Muneer Deeb prior to July 13, a drug deal Gayle Kelly knew about and probably helped precipitate or arrange by bringing Franks and Deeb together. Deeb ended up the offended party in this deal gone bad, Franks had no plans to make things right and maybe even rubbed it in Deeb’s face, what could Deeb do? I think Deeb turned to Gayle Kelly, I also think this is what was behind the visits Deeb made to Fort Fisher while Gayle was working. The visits Lou Booker, Jill’s and Gayle’s supervisor, told Sgt Baier about, informing him that she witnessed Gayle, Jill and Deeb talking about Kenneth Franks and that Deeb seemed very agitated. Maybe this was part of the reason why Gayle Kelly decided to run away at this time, she just wanted to get away from the situation. This problem was no longer something she could just avoid by staying out of the store, Deeb was bringing it to her place of employment. That leaves one question why did Gayle call Deeb when she decided to leave town? It would be very interesting to know what they talked about during that ride to Fort Worth and the ride back. When Deeb finally realized Gayle wasn’t going to help fix this problem and in many ways side with Kenneth Franks and leave Deeb in the cold, that’s when he made the decision to eliminate both Kenneth Franks and Gayle Kelly. I’m not sure when this happened; before or after Deeb let Gayle stay at the apartment or even before or after he took out the insurance policy, was he already planning something before he did these things and if so whom was he planning this with?
Here’s one part of my theory I haven’t been able to iron out, I believe there was a drug deal or the anticipation of a drug deal set up for July 13. I think that’s what brought many of these parties together, that’s why Anthony Melendez wanted to return to Waco that Tuesday afternoon, that’s why Clifford got up with David Spence and unfortunately it’s what made Jill and Raylene take that fateful trip to Waco that day. what I can’t really put together is whom was the party or parties responsible for putting this deal together and/or if there was an ulterior motive planned before hand. Did Deeb hear about this deal going down and that Kenneth Franks was going to be involved and thought this was his chance to get even? Or did Deeb set up this deal with the intention to draw in Kenneth Franks? Or is it possible a third party planned the deal, Deeb became aware of the deal and that Kenneth Franks was planning to be apart of this deal and Deeb informed this third party how Kenneth had done him wrong and shouldn’t deal with him, again leaving the door open for Deeb to get his revenge? I feel all three are possible scenarios, I lean towards the later the reason being what we know or at least what has been reported about Jill’s last couple days at home.
I always go back to Clifford Oliver as the third party involved, I think he might have been the one that set up some kind of deal with Kenneth Franks. I would guess they met at the pool hall Pinocchio’s an establishment both Kenneth and Clifford frequented. Clifford told his friend David Spence about this planned deal, maybe asking him if he wanted to take part and Spence told Deeb and this is when Deeb decided to get even but still at this point I’m not short if Deeb’s plan was to kill anyone maybe he would just be happy getting his money back maybe getting Kenneth roughed up. I think Clifford was informed that Kenneth owed Deeb money again probably from Spence and told he shouldn’t deal with Kenneth until he fixes thing with Deeb. And I feel this is where Jill comes in.
Mrs Thompson, I will just be going by what’s in the police reports about what was said by Jill’s mother, I don’t know if it’s true I believe it is, you will know better. And I would like to add I’ve had this theory for a very long time, your insight about what Jill’s mother only strengthens my belief. Jill’s mother told police Kenneth called Sunday night, Jill wasn’t home, she wasn’t sure if they talked later that evening, Kenneth stated he would call back at 8:00pm. Jill’s mother wasn’t sure if he did. Jill’s mother also said that Jill had asked her about what should she do when she was in love with some one that she knew wasn’t good for her, they are not the exact words but the essence of her question I think we understand what she is asking. I think this also happened on Sunday night. Jill’s mother said after that Jill just mopped around and wouldn’t talk, this would have been the rest of that Sunday night and the next day Monday the day before she left to go to Waco. Another thing Jill’s mother said was Jill and Raylene made their plans to go to Waco either that Sunday night or Monday morning. That’s what is in the police reports.
Here’s my theory: Jill and Kenneth did talk Sunday night, Kenneth explained the situation to Jill and she agreed to help him, this is why she made the comment or asked that question to her mother. After talking to Kenneth Jill made the arrangements to get to Waco July 13 with Raylene. Jill had serious doubts about what she was going to do, again I think that explains how she was acting the days or Sunday night and Monday before she left for Waco. But what was she planning to do, how was she going to help Kenneth Franks? Was she just going to take part in the drug deal or front the money for Kenneth Franks? I don’t think so, I feel her part was going to fix the existing problem with Muneer Deeb, pay Deeb back for the bad deal that went down before so Kenneth to make this other deal, well at least he thought so. That’s why Deeb told Dana Diamond that Jill and Raylene had been at his store that day and that he thought Gayle was going to be with the girls. This might also explain why Jill and Kenneth didn’t get up with each other until much later in the evening than doing so when Jill first got to town. Jill was planning to take care of this herself, go to Deeb without Kenneth Franks, she did n’t get up with Kenneth until after she went to Deeb but Deeb had other plans by then, he wanted to deal with Kenneth Franks and Gayle Kelly in person, he made Jill aware of this and she let Deeb know she would get up with them so this problem could be taking care of, not knowing what she was walking into. This is why Deeb thought Gayle would be with Jill, Raylene and Kenneth and now that he thought he was going to have Gayle and Kenneth in one place he set into motion his plan, informing David Spence. After Jill went to Deeb and couldn’t take care of things she called Kenneth Franks and explained to him Deeb wanted to deal with him personally and they got together, Kenneth still planning for a big drug deal to go down. Getting back to Clifford Oliver, I think he was still planning to make the deal but then he got wind that something else was going to go down, this might explain why his car was vandalized at Midway Park, Clifford was all in for making a drug deal, he was having problems with his wife, he was having financial problems he could use the money but he didn’t want to take part in what David Spence and his cohorts were talking about doing. Some kind of altercation took place between Spence and Clifford this is when his car was damaged but in the end he and David were friends and David knew he won’t talk or go to the police so Clifford takes off and he and David plan to get up later after everything goes down, this is why Clifford looked up David Spence at 2am that night. That sets the stage for Spence with the Melendez brothers to meet up with Jill, Raylene and Kenneth in the park. Jill, Raylene and Kenneth didn’t get into David’s car just to run up to the store to grab some beer, David Spence could help them fix things up with Deeb and he could still make the drug deal. We can only imagine what happened after that and I really don’t want to think about that. All I would say is with the number of shallow stab wounds, there was some torture involved, in it’s totality this was a time consuming crime, why did the killers fill the need to torture their victims, I think they were looking for something or some one; Gayle Kelly, some one the killers expected to be there, she definitely was still a target for some time after the murders.
Mrs. Thompson that’s the gist of my theory, I admit as with most theories it has holes and weaknesses but going by what I’ve read this just seems to be the most plausible. Again any critiques, criticisms, remarks and insights are more than welcomed.
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Last week I was going over the Smiths involved with this case, I needed to add a couple things but keep getting side tracked, but discussing Karen Hoskins made me think about it again. The description she gave for one of the guys in the boat, 5-7, 160-170, curly brown hair, again sounds like she see describing Bennie or Daniel Smith.
I forgot to add Judge Walter Smith, he was the judge that lived on the same street as Mr. Franks and he kept up with the case, calling the police to get information and relaying that information to Mr. Franks. Also there was one of the guys that discovered the bodies Sydney Smith. On the surface everything looks on the up and up with Sydney Smith but he had a red and white Ford pick up truck. He told police he had gone fishing at Speegleville Park July 13 as well as July 14 when he discovered the bodies. Sydney Smith said he got home I think about 9:30pm on July 13, some one told police, for some reason I think it was Terry Barrett, I will have to look this up, saw a red and white Ford pick up coming into Koehne Park around 10:00pm the night of July 13. The reason Barrett comes to mind is because he is also the guy that told police he saw the girls in the Pinto at the park at 6:45pm and a Blue Chevy pulled up next to the girls and talked to them for a few minutes then left. Barrett had parked on the other side of the Pinto so he got a good look at the driver of the Blue Chevy his description a white male 19 yoa, brown hair, fair complexion. Compare that with the description Glenda Mailly gave for Daniel Smith, that had walked up behind her at Koehne Park in March and had a Blue Grand Prix, I know a Grand Prix is a Pontiac and not a Chevy, but Ms. Mailly’s description; 20 yoa, 5-7, 130, brown curly hair, fair complexion. And compare that to the description Debbie Cunningham gives of the stranger that was standing behind the truck she was in and then walked up to window but then ran off, this was at the boat ramp area of Koehne Park the night of July 13; early 20’s, 5-8, 150, no facial hair. Karen Hoskins Description of one of the guys she saw in the boat running without lights and pulling up at Midway Park July 13, 5-7, 160-170, curly brown hair medium length. And Kim Lauderdale’s description of Bennie Smith, he had a two tone Tan Monte Carlo that he abandoned at an apartment complex and again another car reported as being seen at Koehne Park July 13; 19 or 20 yoa, actually he was a little older, slender build, curly brown hair. Were these witnesses describing the same subject?
Mrs Thompson could you give me the physical description of Tab Harper and Clifford Oliver?
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On the physical condition of Harper, I saw a picture of him with 4 of his friends. F Dannen had the snapshot and showed it to us at the “family meeting”. I cannot remember C Olivers description.
I only saw the picture of Harper once and that was 15 years ago.
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And while I’m playing the name game was there any relationship between Clifford Oliver and the Mrs. Oliver that was the manager of the Ivy Square Apartments and told the police the girls, Jill and Raylene stopped by between 2pm and 3pm asking about getting an apartment. this may explain the reason the girls were carrying so much cash, over $600 if everybody is believed that told police the girls cashed checks; Joyce Breiten at the Piggly Wiggly stated both girls cashed ckecks Jill $226 and Raylene $200 and the manager from the Waxahachie Safeway told police Jill had cashed a check for $200. Was she correct that it was Jill and Raylene? Thinking about how some people have said Jill and Gayle looked alike did Mrs. Ivy mix up the two girls.
Mrs Thompson I guess this would be something you could shed some light on. In your opinion or by knowing what was going on in Jill’s life at that time does it make sense that she was looking for an apartment in Waco? Everything I’ve read about Jill at that time was she was happy to be back home, happy to be a Senior at Waxahachie the up coming school year, she had applied for a job I think a Bar-B-Que place; Rip’s Ribs or something like that. Does that sound like someone that was just going to get up and move back to Waco? Compared to Gayle Kelly that was a run away, lost her job at Fort Fisher, lost the apartment and job offer from Muneer Deeb. Mrs. Ivy said the girl told her she was hoping to get a job to pay the rent, Gayle Kelly would go to work at IHOP around that time.
Did Mrs. Ivy mix up the two girls, remember she also told police that the two girls talked to three boys that were runaways from the Methodist Home. she had heard this from Linda Fuqua that rented one of the apartments and worked at the Methodist Home. Did the Police ever talk to Linda Fuqua? Did Mrs Ivy hear from Linda that the runaway boys and the girls talking to them were from the Home and heard that the victims of the murders had lived at the Home and mistakenly put the two and two together that the girls that came looking for an apartment were also from the Methodist Home and were the victims and again did a similarity between Jill and Gayle add to this?
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Yesterday I posted Terry Barrett saw a red and white Ford truck came into Koehne Park about 10:00pm July 13, I know I wasn’t sure it was Mr. Barrett and of coarse it wasn’t it was Candyce Satterwhite and actually I found this pretty easily which is rare when I’m looking for some piece of information I know I have read before. The reason being because I was already looking at Candyce Satterwhite’s statements and Hypnosis session for something else. Anyway she is the one that reported the truck coming into the park. What I was more interested in and was I was looking for when I came across this was what she said while she was under hypnosis, I thought she had said something very interesting. Here is what I thought was interesting Ms. Satterwhite says she and her boy friend David Pearcy parked between the Pinto and the white work truck. The Pinto was to the right of them and the work truck to the left of them. Everybody knows the truck she is talking about that is parked to her left is Charles Ramsey’s truck, everybody that was at Koehne Park that night saw that truck. I would add that’s why anyone that couldn’t remember seeing that truck or the yellow car or as in some cases any other vehicles that were at the park you have to doubt, this would include people like Rusty Escott, Kathy Prochnow, Kenny Young. Anybody would know the the orange Pinto was there, that was all over the news and in the papers but if some one said that’s the only car they remember seeing you have to question it, not so much because they are not telling the truth though I think in many cases they were lying but even if what they are telling you is true if they can’t add any other details about other vehicles or people in the park they aren’t helping. You need witnesses that can corroborate other witnesses statements and there were plenty of those, you shouldn’t waste your time on those that can’t. But here’s what is interesting about what Candyce had to say.
She remembered; it looked like the blonde hair girl was coming from the truck that was directly behind the Pinto. Officer Luedke whom wrote the report on this hypnosis session states she’s talking about the white truck she had been talking about earlier which would have been Charles Ramsey’s truck but this can’t be the case Charles Ramsey’s truck was parked to the left of Ms. Satterwhite, she is talking about a truck that is parked behind the Pinto that is parked to the right of her they can’t be the same truck . What truck is she talking about?
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Eugene Deal and Ramon Salinas
I usually don’t use information I read from Carlton Stowers’ book, there are way too many inaccuracies, you can pick just about any page in that book and find something that’s not right or not true and Mr. Stowers was friends with Ned Butler so his view is slanted, so did Mr. Stowers just use some creative writing to tell a good story or did he intentionally bend the facts? Still his book is a good reference to get an overall view of the case and he does offer information I haven’t found anywhere else. And this would be the case with Eugene Deal.
Eugene Deal was David Spence’s parole officer starting in October 1981 when Spence was paroled after serving time for the robbery of the 7-11 he committed. I don’t know the exact date Spence was released but I don’t think it could have been too long before he had a parole officer, I think making contact with his parole officer would have had to be one of the first things he had to do upon his release. Maybe not a big issue but if this was in October 1981 it is another thing that puts Christine Juhl’s stated timeline into question. She testified she met Spence in August 1981 and moved in with him August 18, 1981, that would be impossible if he was still in jail.
But that’s not the issue I’m getting into with this post, there are a plethora of issues with Christine Juhl which will receive their own fair share of post. No this post has to deal with whom did Mr. Deal talk to when he called police in August 1982 when he started to believe David Spence either had information about or was involved with the Lake Murders? It’s not in the police reports, he did testify that he called the police and on more than one occasion but doesn’t state whom he talked with. And this is where Mr. Stowers’ book comes into play. According to his book Mr. Deal called the police and talked to Ramon Salinas. As Mr. Deal obtained more information from people like Spence’s mother Mr. Deal continued to try to call and talk to Salinas but could only leave messages, Salinas never returned the calls. Mr. Deal, per the book, says he tried to call 3 more times between the first time he talked to Salinas and when Spence was arrested for the sexual assault on September 9, when he did get to talk to Salinas, but Salinas seemed only interested in the assault charge and didn’t even inform Mr. Deal that the Lake Waco Murders case was suspended and/or that he was no longer actively investigating that case. Mr. Deal says Salinas was never interested in what he had to say, including the first time he talked to him.
I know I regularly criticize Detective Ramon Salinas, honestly it’s just too hard not to. Mr. Stowers’ book also doesn’t view Salinas in a very positive light. Here’s my question, is this true did Eugene Deal talk to Ramon Salinas in August 1982 and tell him about David Spence and Salinas just ignored it? As I’ve pointed out repeatedly I have seen in many articles Salinas state he never saw or heard or found anything that pointed to David Wayne Spence, well if you are just going to ignore any and all information you got about him I guess it is possible but get real!!! If what Mr. Stowers has written is true that means, Salinas was made aware of the friction that existed between Kenneth Franks and Muneer Deeb on July 19 and did nothing and Mr. Deal told him about David Wayne Spence in August and again Salinas did nothing. Can anyone even try to reasonably explain this? It would be interesting to hear from Ramon Salinas but I know that will never happen, he’s busy trying to re-write history in the papers. Very disappointing, I can only hope Waco Texas has better police officers now!!!
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It would be interesting for you to talk to R Salinas. I know from personal experience that Truman Simons worked almost full time with Carlton Stowers while writing Careless Whispers. In other words , I would dare say that T Simons’ feelings toward Salinas is what came out in the book, moreso than Stowers’. Simons told me more than once that Salinas was just an”ignorant Mexican”.
And to keep all my information away from him. That could be taken two ways. I took it that Simons and Salinas did not want to share evidence or info about the case. My personal feelings were , if they had worked together, we would be in a better “place” right now !
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Mrs. Thompson I totally agree with you about what better results or answers we would have now if there was more cooperation between the officers in the Waco PD, unfortunately I feel there was a cancer growing within that department that wasn’t exposed until this case. I would love to talk to Salinas, I have so many questions and I would be respectful with my inquiries, remember my father was a state trooper for 25 years I understand how difficult the job can be and how outsiders can judge harshly only seeing things through the spectrum of a narrow glimpse and I admit I myself might be a little guilty of this.
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Today marks the awful 34th anniversary of one the most senseless and brutal crimes in American history. Unfortunately for a case that brings so much into question about our country’s justice system; e.g. the death penalty, the use of convict’s statements as evidence, bite-mark evidence, confessions and the deals that are made, so little national attention as been focused on this horrendous tragedy. For those victims and the living victims that will never be able to forget we should asking and questioning and keep the search for the truth alive, I know I will I wish I could find others!!!
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I know things have been quiet for way too long but I was trying to work on something that needed to be handled delicately, not me just getting on here and ranting about it. In the end the results were the same another path to nowhere. This is what I don’t get, I know many people believe the wrong people were convicted for this crime but when it comes down to finding anything that could substantially support this there is nothing. Hey I believe the right guys were convicted but I’ve been willing to look and listen to those that have a different view and time after time all I can find is when you put the best information out there it points to those that were convicted as the most likely guilty parties to this horrible crime. Does anybody have anything to disprove this? I still have questions, more so about the investigation than determining some one’s guilt or innocence. One question I have is if there are people out there that have answers to a different truth than that which we have been told why don’t those people ever say anything? I know there are different sides out there, all stories have multiple sides but the truth only has one side!!! Why does it seem so many people have a problem with that?
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B. I’ve been waiting for 2 months, anything new? I read the articles you told me about and I see what you were saying about Richard Franks.
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C. I think I found a little piece of information that could help explain things but as with everything or anybody I talk to, you don’t know what to believe. If some one tells me something now I honestly just can’t take it as the truth, I need to be able to verify it find something that can corroborate the information I find and that can be very difficult.
You now my feeling has always been the police missed a vital connection with this case, mainly the girls from the Methodist Home knew David Spence. With the state making the case of mistaken identity they never tried to find this connection. I feel Gayle Kelly knew David much more than she testified to and I also feel Jill Montgomery probably knew David as well, too many of the girls from the Home knew him, it just seems unbelievable that Jill wouldn’t have known him also. For the interesting piece of information I got. I must admit I believed, by going by what we have been told, the girls from the Home met David at the store, The girl I talked to said she met David before the store opened. She said they all skipped school and went to a party at the lake and that’s where she met David. If this is the case it would show the girls had some connection to David before the store or before Christine Juhl worked at the store, apparently the reason David hung out at the store in the first place. I think this could help explain some things. But the girl I talked to wouldn’t come off anymore information and then when I pressed her on it she no longer wanted to talk to me. Now I’m trying some different avenues.
On Mr. Franks, that’s just a hard one to try to figure out and unfortunately now we will never know. But if that one article is right, which I told you I would have to question, it would seem Mr. Franks would have been drunk or intoxicated when the police arrived to the park on the morning of July 14, he did have a reputation at least among Kenneth’s friend’s as a hard drinker, couldn’t the police officer detect this? And if he did why didn’t he do something about it? At least take him to the station for a few hours.
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This is certainly an interesting case…I hope to read more interesting comments from ones in the know…Maybe by talking about it, they will achieve some sort of closure and/or inner peace after all these years.
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I guess I will share that article CC and I are talking about, well at least part of it. It’s a great article and it states that the writer received a call from a slightly drunk Mr. Franks one night when his son was missing. Kenneth, Jill and Rayleye were only missing one night, so if he got a call from Mr. Franks that night, that would lead to some serious questions. Now the problem with the article is it also states that they waited for days to hear anything about the missing kids but there was nothing. That isn’t true the bodies of the kids were discovered the next day. So did this call really happen and if it did was it the night the kids went missing or after their bodies had been found? If it happened the night the kids went missing when was it, Mr. Franks was out until after midnight, one of the many things he failed to inform the police the next morning, he went out between 2a.m. and 3a.m. to try to find the kids and then did this again around 6a.m. at which time he called the police, so when did he make this call to the reporter? Here is what the journalist says, this is only part of the article 30 Years Later – Remembering The Horrific Triple Murder At Lake Waco – January 9, 2012
It gets creepier
It got creepier when I received a late-night call from Kenneth Franks’ dad.
He sounded slightly drunk and emotionally washed out. It was a long, slow, weird, rambling conversation, mainly about him thinking that something really bad had happened to his son and the girls.
The conversation left me with a very uneasy feeling, unlike anything I’d ever felt before. Something cold and unnerving. A feeling that lingered and prompted me to have a long conversation with my editor.
We decided not to publish a story about the call — after all, what could it say other than a distraught father had called the paper and rambled about his missing son? We also decided not to pass on the information to police, though I did write up comprehensive notes about the phone call, just in case.
In the following days, we all waited for a break in the case — for the kids to turn up “one way or another”. But there was no a break.
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Facebook page Lake Waco 82
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OCCAM’S RAZOR meet THE LAKE WACO MURDERS
For those that don’t know, Occam’s Razor is the problem solving principle that states; the simplest solution and the one with the least number of assumptions is usually the correct solution. Now with any homicide case there are some number of assumptions that inevitably will have to be made, it’s the nature of the beast, though the victims can provide us with so much information they always leave questions that they can no longer answer and usually they leave us with more questions than answers. That’s why I like the axiom; The police don’t believe in coincidences. Let’s look at a couple things about this case.
The story that has been told at least my the Melendez brothers was that these murders were a spur of the moment act, David Spence acted offensive towards Jill Montgomery and things spiraled out of control from there. Is there anything out there that could help sustain this one way or the other? I would say the shallow stab wounds on both Jill and Kenneth Franks argue against this, those wounds look like they were made to cause pain not to kill; torture. That’s a lot different from some one getting mad, snapping or going off and butchering some one. So that points me in the direction that these murders weren’t a spur of the moment act. Which would bring me to the next question; is there anything else out there that could help sustain this view? That’s when we run into Occam’s assumptions and the questioning of coincidences.
When the Waco Police first interviewed Jill’s mother she told them that Kenneth had called Jill on Sunday night. Sometime later that night Jill asked her what do you do when you’re in love with some one that you know is bad for you. Unfortunately in hindsight Jill’s mother wasn’t happy with the answer she gave her daughter and it was the last real or at least the attempt at a real conversation she would have with her daughter. She would tell police after that Jill seemed depressed, she just moped around, she wouldn’t talk, it seemed something was worrying Jill, surely something was wrong. We will never know exactly what Jill was thinking about and we can’t say it had anything to do with her murder. It just as easily could be explained as typical teenage emotional peaks and valleys. But if Jill was having worries about something to do with returning to Waco Sunday night and Monday, that would also point towards the crimes not being done on the spur of the moment. Then there is another piece of information that points toward the kids having a feeling something was wrong. This time it has to do with Kenneth Franks.
Kenneth Franks had left his keys stuffed into the back seat of the Pinto. Mr. Franks, Kenneth’s father, said he had told Kenneth if he was in some kind of trouble to stash his keys, that way no one could get into the house or steal his bike. I know that’s a very strange statement kind of hard to believe, some one telling their child if they are in danger to lose their keys. Don’t know what to make of that but the keys were found stuffed in the back seat, so if it is true that Mr. Franks told Kenneth this, it shows that Kenneth felt he was in some kind of trouble before he got out of the car. But if he thought he was in some trouble why leave the car or the park? Another question that we will never be able to answer. But what we can take from these two statements is that the parents of two of the victims said their kids both gave signs before hand that something was wrong, more a feeling or emotional in Jill’s case and a physical sign, stashing his keys, in Kenneth’s case. Is this just a mere coincidence or is it a key to telling us so much more?
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Whom and when did Jill’s check stubs get thrown outside???
Four of Jill’s pay check stubs were found lying outside between the car and the picnic table, how did they get there and whom was responsible for this? Maybe a better question would be where did Jill keep these check stubs. It makes sense she had one check stub with her she went to Waco to pick up her last check and she had cast that. It reasonable to think she could have said,” Hey Raylene can I put this in your glove compartment so I don’t lose it”. I don’t see anybody carrying around four pay check stubs loosely and I don’t see any reason that she needed them that day for anything but she definitely had them. That leads me to believe she would have carried them in her pocketbook, makes sense to me. The girls pocketbooks were never found. So whom took the pocketbooks and when? I guess the obvious answer to the question of whom is the killers but when?
If the killers were trying to find something or rob the girls prior to the girls leaving with them and the killers went through their pocketbooks at this time and the pay check stubs ended up on the ground at that time, wouldn’t have anybody that was at the park at the time seen this? The police interviewed about 20 people that were at the park that night, not one of them mentioned seeing anything like this. And if the girls were being robbed or getting a hard time with some one why would they leave with them? Just make a scene there where enough people around to intervene. If that scenario wasn’t the case did the killers return after the murders, if so when? I can’t see the killers returning right after committing the murders, they would have been bloody and if they went into the car afterwards wouldn’t they have left blood somewhere in or on that car? None was never found. Maybe the killers returned much later, like after they went and got cleaned up? David Spence did return to the park with Clifford Oliver the next morning, is this when they grabbed the pocketbooks? This sounds possible but Gilbert Melendez testified that David handed him some money, apparently some of the money he had taken from the girls, when Gilbert dropped him off that night. If this is true that would mean the killers would have already gotten the money from the girls before David and Clifford returned the next morning, why would they go through the pocketbooks after that?
Then we have Mr. Franks going through the car trying to find contact information to call the girls’ parents sometime that night or early morning. Did he go through the pocketbooks while he was rummaging through the car trying to find information and that’s when the pay checks ended up on the ground? If this was the case and Jill had kept her check stubs in her pocketbook, which I think is very probable, that means the pocketbooks were still there when Mr. Franks went through the car. So where did they go after that, when were they removed and whom removed them? Just another thing that I’ve always wondered about, I feel the answer to that could hold the key that could help unlock the truth.
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With the passing of Anthony Melendez, the last living of the 4 that were convicted, where does that leave things now??? Anyone have any ideas???
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The questions are still there for me. My one desire has always been to know the true story of that day and night in Waco, Texas. Anthony Melendez suffered for quite a long time and he has now met his Maker and has had his final judgement. If it be His will, the truth will be known. I will depend on that !
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Today in the case that will never end: Gayle Kelly gives her thoughts on the possibility of a future book on the Lake Waco Murders from Fred Dannen!!!
“.As far as this writer.His book will be nothing more than fiction”
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Similar to Careless Whispers ?? So many readers of this True Crime Book have considered it as the “TRUE STORY”. Some folks however, consider it the scenario created by Truman Simon’s to allow HIM to solve and close this case. As far as I am concerned, I do not believe there is a book by Fredric Dannen.
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“IF” the conclusion to this 35 year old case does come with the passing of Anthony Melendez………there should be no further delays with Fredric Dannen revealing his “Mystery Book”. I understand that Mr. Dannen told the Family of Anthony “the book should be out in a couple of weeks”. PROBLEM: He told them this approximately nine months ago.
It is my opinion that Mr. Dannen needs to come outof his “safe place” and explain his actions since 1997. ie; BOOK? OR NO BOOK? DNA OR NO DNA? TAPES OR NO TAPES? PROOF OF ORIGINAL SUSPECT GUILT OR NO PROOF?…….the TRUTH is simple !!
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Mrs. Thompson, unfortunately I don’ think the passing of Anthony Melendez is the conclusion of this case it’s just the end of another sad chapter. As you know I don’t put much faith in Mr. Dannen nor his book. That’s why I posted what Gayle Kelly had to say about it, You know Gayle and I don’t see eye to eye on most aspects of this murder other than those that were convicted are guilty, our thoughts on Mr. Dannen’s book also are in line with each other.
Keeping up with the case as much as you do, I know you still see all the differing thoughts, theories and beliefs that remain. I just look at the things that have been put out there since Anthony’s passing and for most part good points good arguments but in the end inconclusive. I know I’m a little bias because I believe David Spence, Muneer Deeb, Gilbert Melendez and Anthony Melendez are guilty but to find the truth we have to listen to all sides, take in all the stuff that is out there and when we do we are left with questions. Question that still need to be answered.
In the last few days I have seen the view that the murders took place at Speegleville Park. Maybe but the one big question that the people that believe can never answer is; if the kids were killed where they were found, there would have been some blood splatter and/or spray there is none, you would also expect to see some kind of blood trail as blood would have dripped from whatever weapon was used, neither of these are present at Speegleville. People will argue there was none found at Koehne either which is true but remember the police didn’t become aware of area the murders took place until December, five months later, the weather over those five months would have cleared any outdoor crime sight. The police were at Speegleville Park within 24 hours from the last time anyone saw the kids, in that time frame you would still expect to find this evidence not 5 months later. And people question the Koehne site even though one of the Melendez brothers pointed it out, they argue that was some of Truman Simons’ work. Again could be but what about the other people that pointed out the same area? You know I’m talking about Clifford Oliver’s girlfriend Josie and the Windhams. Are all these people lying? That I just can’t believe. Somewhere along the line we have to believe somebody.
The other day some one brought up James Russell Bishop, I hadn’t heard that name in a long time. He was an interesting suspect much better than Terry “Tab” Harper the suspect Fred Dannen is pushing. But in the end it’s the same thing there is nothing to tie him to the murder zero evidence. Yes he committed a similar crime 7 months later in California but the differences in that crime are more telling. Two points that have been put forward by those that believe Bishop committed the murders, one that he took off shortly after the murders and went to California. Again this is true but Mrs. Thompson we know there were a number of people that took off to California shortly after the murders that had a much more clear connection, of coarse I’m talking about Clifford Oliver and Terry Gutierrez. And there could have been another reason Bishop went to California his baby daughter lived there, that is where Bishop lived when he first went to California.
I also see people say the kids were kidnapped, again there is no evidence to this. There are those that say Bishop kidnapped them at gunpoint and then tied them up, like he did the two girls in California. A couple major problems with this, out of all the people the police talked to that were at the Koehne Park that night no one saw anything even remotely close to this. People will say well nobody saw them leave either which is true but that was probably because there was nothing to draw their attention to the kids because nothing out of the ordinary was going on like being held at gun point and tied up. Not saying that is impossible but when there is a lack of concrete indisputable evidence you have to look at the whole spectrum of possibilities and think about which is most probable, Occam’s razor. No one saw anything because there was nothing to see, no kidnapping, no weapons, no one getting tied up. As many law officers from many different agencies have stated it’s extremely rare that a stranger that was just looking for victims would have picked up two girls with a guy, that usually doesn’t happen, they would pick up girls that were alone or without a male being present just like Bishop did in California. The parks around Lake Waco presented plenty of opportunity for some one looking to abduct girls unaccompanied with a male.
Then there’s the fact that Bishop was a gun man, the Lake Waco murder victims were butcher with a knife, though that may seem like a small thing to most, there is a difference. And there is one piece of evidence that is very telling, Jill Montgomery had defensive wounds on her right hand, she had grabbed the blade as she was being stabbed. That tells us her hands were untied when the attack began. And maybe this alone create more doubts that Bishop did this more than anything else. The defensive wound to Jill’s hand proves she was resisting before her hands were tied, the first question would be when would this have been? If you were going to resist wouldn’t you resist while you were out in the open around other people at the park, you wouldn’t wait until your abductor got you alone. If this would have happened at the park people would have seen this. Again Bishop was a gun man, so what he was holding a gun on three people and fighting one with a knife? Maybe possible but extremely unlikely and again did this in a park where there were about a dozen people around at any time. Just for argument Bishop somehow was able to get the kids in the truck without causing a scene, he walked up to them pulled out his gun and the kids just walked to his truck with him without doing anything that would have drawn anybody’s attention, Jill’s hands still cannot be tied up at this point. How were the kids seated in the truck, all 3 in the cab, all 3 in the back of the truck? Problems either way. How do you control 3 victims and still drive or drive and hold a gun on all 3 victims. And we can’t forget the knife because that is the telling fact, again the defensive wound occurred before Jill’s hands were tied. So Bishop was driving the kids away, holding a gun and a knife, again not very likely. I could keep going on and on about all the unlikely scenarios, and that’s what makes Bishop the unlikely killer the problems or questions that a theory of a single killer present far outweigh the possible probabilities of a single killer, especially some one that was a gun man not a knife man. Could some one have helped Bishop. that’s a whole nother possibility, one I really don’t think I’ve seen brought forward before Bishop was a loner.
I know people can argue the counter points to everything I have said and do it well and I think all sides should be heard. But that is why there is no conclusion to this case 35 years later, still way too many questions.
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The difference between wanting something to be true and proving something is true, it seems a lot of people have a problem understanding this. Just because something is said in court doesn’t mean it’s true, people aren’t suppose to lie, that’s perjury, but they do. Sometimes people just get mixed up, it happens. But when testimony or evidence is introduced that contradicts what some one has said the jury decides if the testimony in question has been impeached. All the testimony from the witness that gives the questionable testimony does not need to be impeached if any of his testimony can be questioned that’s enough. Prime example Calvin Nesbitt and Gilbert Melendez’s truck, taken from the trial transcripts ( as I just stated I won’t go into all his testimony just enough that can be refuted and was, but I will let you be the jury).
For the Defense Mr. Reaves Direct examination of Nesbitt: Okay was the truck in running condition, could you get it going?
Mr. Nesbitt: Not very easy.
Mr. Reaves: Okay do you recall when it was that he (Gilbert Melendez) brought the truck to you?
Mr. Nesbitt: It was, I can’t remember the date but it stayed at my house for about three months.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, do you recall the time period it stayed at your house? Do you have referenced any time that you can tie it to?
Mr. Nesbitt: Well about two months before July and all through July just about.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, how can you, how can you tie it to that time period?
Mr. Nesbitt: Well I usually have a family barbecue every 4th of July.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, did you have one 4th of July 1982?
Mr. Nesbitt: Yes sir.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, Mr. Melendez’s truck there that day?
Mr. Nesbitt: Yes it was there.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, did it stay there, how long it it stay there after that date?
Mr. Nesbitt: Until along towards the last of July.
Mr. Reaves: Okay, what kind of condition was the truck in on the 4th of July?
Mr. Nesbitt: It wasn’t running.
Mr. Reaves: Okay.
Mr. Nesbitt: It had three flats on it.
That’s enough testimony from the Defense and Mr. Nesbitt now let’s see what other people had to say. Richard Sulak, the gentleman that sold Gilbert the truck and his wife also testified. For time and space I won’t repeat the testimony verbatim but you will see the problems with Mr. Nesbitt’s testimony. Mr. Sulak didn’t sell the truck to Gilbert Melendez until July 3, 1982 and he had a notarized Transfer of Title to prove this. Mr. Nesbitt was wrong that Gilbert had brought the truck to him a couple months before July. Mr. and Mrs. Sulak also testified the truck was in running order when they sold the truck, Gilbert took it for a test drive, so it was running the day they sold it.
Mr. Nesbitt had testified the truck had three flat tires but during cross Vic Feazell asked Nesbitt how was the truck brought out to his house. if it was brought out on a trailer. Mr. Nesbitt said no. Veazell asked they drove it with three flat tires. Mr. Nesbitt answered no the tires became flat after it had been sitting there awhile. Mr. Nesbitt seems a little confused at least.
One other little piece of information that came out was during the testimony of Christine Juhl, the girlfriend of David Spence. She stated while she and David were staying at the Northwood Apartments, which she dated between July 10 and July 20th, She and David went out to Speegleville Park with Gilbert and Anthony in Gilbert’s truck. That would show the truck was running around that time.
Nr. Nesbitt would also testified the Gilbert’s stepdad came and got the truck in late July. Gilbert testified his stepfather went and got the truck after he got arrested in September, He was arrested September 9th for the Darvin Pack incident that occurred on September the 5th, which was Labor Day weekend and that could help explain things.
Being nice to Mr. Nesbitt, it’s was two years later when he testified so I won’t say he was trying to intentionally lie but he was definitely mixed up with his facts. He remembers the family barbecue as his point of reference but couldn’t he be mixing up a barbecue on the 4th of July for one during Labor Day weekend?
So did the defense prove the truck wasn’t running on July 13/14 or did the state provide conflicting evidence and testimony that more than adequately raises questions and thus not proven?
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To find the truth for anything we have to dismiss the rumors that have been able to persist for so long and are continually perpetrated to this day on the internet and with this life on the internet these rumors live as facts, the truth won’t be found there and it’s sad and pathetic to think after 35 years after these horrendous murders people still spread these rumors as fact. Let’s take a look at the police reports and see what they tell us about Terry “Tab” Harper and the black van. I know I went through this before but as we all know some rumors are harder to kill than others!
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The first mention of Tab Harper comes from an unidentified caller on Friday July 16; approximately at 10:30 a.m. The caller tells Officer Mike Nicoletti that he had seen Tab Harper, another subject standing with Harper and a blue van and that they were standing by the victim’s car approximately between 9:00 p.m. and 9:30 p.m. Tuesday July 13. The caller said Harper was responsible for the murders. The police knew Tab Harper he had a record so Nicoletti and Detective Ramon Salinas decide to go pick him up and bring him in for questioning. They take him in front of Judge Joe Johnson, while there the judge receives a call from a known police informant. That informant tells the judge that he had heard from some kids the Tab Harper had committed the murders and there was an eye witness, a young girl Harper had threatened to kill if she said anything and this girl was afraid to come forward.
Nicoletti and Salinas go and talk to this informant he tells them he got this information from his nephew and his nephew had told him he had heard this from a girl at school Leigh Anne. They call the nephew and the nephew tells the officers the same story that he had heard this story from a girl named Leigh Anne, he didn’t know her last name, but she was at summer school at University High School, which becomes the officers next stop.
They find this Leigh Anne to be Leigh Anne Hogeland and go to her home and interview her. When Leigh Anne is asked about the information she had been spreading around school she denies doing so, She is told about the two calls the police have received but she stands by her story, Leigh Anne tells them the only thing she knows about Tab Harper is the kids around Jack’s Stereo and Koehne Park have been saying he is capable of committing this crime and that’s the story going around. She also tells the officers maybe they should talk to John Landers he might have some information. They call John Landers but he tells them he doesn’t know anything but he might know some people that do, he would try to talk to these people and get back to them. I guess I will put this out there now though it doesn’t have anything to do with Tab Harper. John Landers didn’t have information but his brother Henry had been out at the lake the night of July 13/14 with some friends but not at Koehne Park they were at Airport Park and the police were told they had told people they had heard some screams coming from behind the Bass Clubhouse at Airport Park.
All this information can be found in Detectives Salinas’ reports but we also need to look at Officer Mike Nicoletti’s. Yes they will me giving us the same information but each officer gives his own take on it and we have to remember many times they are describing the same incidents, that can be a little confusing, it may look like they are talking about different times and incidents which could give one the view that something happened more times than it did. I see this all the time in reference to Tab Harper, I see people keep saying all these people saw Tab Harper at the park that night which is just not true, many people heard that Tab was at the park that night but all those people got it from the same source. Remember that first call Nicoletti got on July 16th, Salinas rightfully writes in his report that it was an unidentified caller as you will see in Nicoletti’s reports, Nicoletti found out whom that unidentified caller was.
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Nicoletti’s report tells us about the same call that Salinas mentions in his report, Nicoleti gives a little more details, which makes sense he is the one that talked to the caller, he just briefed Salinas afterwards. Anyway he tells us pretty much the same story as Salinas, the vital information he adds is this unidentified caller told him he had met this girl, he didn’t give the girl’s name, at Airport Park on Wednesday July 14th and this girl had told him she had talked to Tab Harper earlier that morning and he was asking her if she had heard about the 3 dead bodies found at Speegleville Park. The girl told the anonymous caller that she hadn’t heard anything about any dead bodies nor had the caller until they heard it on the news later. The caller stated he thought it was strange that Tab Harper would have known about it so early and that why he was calling he thought Tab probably had something to do with it. Nicoletti agreed this would be strange if Tab Harper had this information Wednesday morning. The caller added that he was very scared of Harper and his friends.
After this Nicoletti reports getting a second anonymous call later that same day which Salinas does not mention in his reports Nicoletti states he received a second anonymous call approximately at 1:00 p. m., this caller tells him the same story the first call gave but he tells Nicoletti where he heard the story, he heard the story from one Rusty Escott. Nicoletti looks up this Arthur “Rusty” Escott and finds his phone number and address. Approximately at 2:00 p.m. Nicoletti calls Rusty. Mr. Escott seemed to be a little worried that the police had gotten his number and asked Nicoletti how he had gotten his number, Nicoletti asked him what he meant, then Rusty told him he had been the unidentified caller that had called earlier and told about talking to the girl at Airport Park. Rusty tells Nicoletti the same story he had told him when he called before, he saw Tab Harper standing outside his black van talking to another male subject and they were standing beside the orange Pinto and now he gives the name of the girl he talked to at Airport Park; Rebecca, he doesn’t know her last name.
Nicoletti doesn’t say anything about picking up Harper or casing down the other information that day as Salinas does. So this was the beginning of the investigation into Tab Harper. Harper was questioned, he gave a solid alibi that checked out and was released but that didn’t end the interest in him.
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Is it true that Harper’s alibi was his sister and her boyfriend stating Tab was at home with them watching TV?
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Mrs. Thompson, it’s not in the police reports what Tab Harper’s alibi was when he was picked up and released on July 16th. But at that time the officers checked his alibi and found it to be solid, I know over time that fact has diminished. I was going to get into this a little later because it also has to do with Tab Harper being seen at the Lake that night, so I’m getting a little ahead of myself but I definitely want to answer your question. If this was the alibi Harper gave the police on July 16th, then obviously the officers would have had to talk to Harper’s sister and boyfriend to confirm that alibi, that did’t happen. Let me put things in proper order. We start with Harper being picked up and released on July 16th. The first report that shows that the police were looking for Harper’s sister’s boyfriend wasn’t until July 27th, common sense would dictate if the police were still looking for the boyfriend on July 27 they had not found him nor talked to him on July 16th, so he couldn’t have confirmed Harper’s alibi when the police released him. Here’s how this all came about.
On July 27th Mike Nicoletti and Larry Abner make contact with one Derwin “Bubba” Wilkins a known associate of Tab Harper. During their questioning they ask Bubba if he knows Keith Boatman, Mr. Wilkins says yes that Boatman is Harper’s sister’s boyfriend. Wilkins was asked where he was the night of the murders, Wilkins responded he was home watching TV
Mrs. Thompson there is no mention of Boatman in any of the reports prior to that time, that would show the police hadn’t talked to him and would also show there didn’t seem to be any urgency to talk to him until then, which would not have been the case if he was suppose to confirm some one’s alibi 11 days earlier. And when we look at what Wilkins did say and look at the sitting home watching alibi story we clearly see all the elements in Wilkins answers to police. It was Wilkins that said he was home watching TV not Harper and the boyfriend came up in the Wilkins interview. Like so many other things in this case it looks like this is just another thing that has gotten mixed up over time. Not that there is indisputable evidence either way at this point, with what we do know from the police reports I would seriously have to doubt that this was Tab Harper’s alibi on July 16th when he was released by the police.
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Next Detective Ramon Salinas received a call Saturday July 17; 9:15 a.m. from a girl named Amy Brown, 17. She does not mention the name Tab Harper but here is the essence of her story she was told by a friend that Rebecca DeMarias had told them that she had been told where 3 dead bodies could be found in Speegleville Park and this was before the news that the bodies had been discovered. Amy Brown couldn’t come up with the name of the friend that had told her this. Of coarse Salinas is very interested in talking to this Rebecca DeMarias, she must be the Rebecca Rusty had told Nicoletti about, but Ms. Brown informs him no one can find her, she’s afraid to come forward for fear of retaliation. That was the story told by Amy Brown, That is all very tantalizing, some one knew about the murders before the authorities knew there was a murder and now this person is missing sounds like we have the makings of a case. But cool your jets a couple things need to be pointed out. Amy Brown is giving information she received second handed as the other callers had done except for Rusty Escott. Nor had they been at the park. Amy didn’t witness any of this herself and she can’t even give the name of the person that told her, so at this point all this is at best is hearsay and also a little troubling. Why wouldn’t Amy Brown give the name of the person that gave her this information? She was concerned enough to call. Though the answer is not clearly written in the report it is there. Teenagers and high school are the breeding ground for rumors, stories go around and they change as they spread. The police would realize this in time as we will see but this was the best lead they had at the time so they had to track it down and they did. And I will add at this time, this is the most troubling thing about this rumor, the police did spend so much time on this and in doing so left other leads and information not followed up and they are suppose to follow up all leads and information. Two leads they failed to follow up have done so much damage to this case. Lisa Kader came into the police department on July 19th and told them Muneer “Lucky” Deeb had killed Kenneth Franks because of Gayle Kelly, this is also in the police reports. Gene Deal, David Spence’s parole officer also has stated he called the police department multiple times and told them that he had a parolee named David Wayne Spence that had told him he had information about the murders. The police did absolutely nothing with either of these leads until Truman Simons and Dennis Baier took over the case on September 10 after the Waco Police Department had suspended the case. But they spent so much time tracking down the Tab Harper.
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On Monday July 19 Detective Salinas found Rebecca DeMarias, I would repeat this is the same day Kisa Kader came into the police station and stated Muneer Deeb killed Kenneth Franks because of Gayle Kelly, she talked to Officer Nicoletti and the information Ms. Kader gave can be found in his report, the information that was never followed up! Salinas ann Sargent Fortune pick up Rebcca DeMarias and bring her to the police station for an interview. They share with her the information they have received, in short that they had been told by multiple sources, never mentioning that they received this from Rusty Escott and that Rusty had told them that he had talked to Rebecca Wednesday before anyone was aware there had been any murders. They told her they had been told that she had talked to Tab Harper Wednesday morning about the bodies being found. Rebecca said this wasn’t true she didn’t talk to Tab Harper until she went to Airport Park that evening, approximately at 8:30 p.m. and she could give them names of other people that were there. This put a huge whole in the case that Tab Harper knew about the murders Wednesday morning. But at this point whom could they believe Rusty Escott or Rebecca DeMarias? They chose to believe Rusty Escott, you would have to ask them why. Later that day Salinas checks out her story with some of the names she has given them. They confirm what Rebecca has told him but he still doesn’t believe her. Again Salinas questions Rebecca about this and tells her he got the information from 3 or 4 different sources that she talked to Tab Harper before noon on Wednesday morning, Rebecca repeats she never talked to Tab Harper on Wednesday morning. So this was the status of the case against Tab Harper at this time, maybe Salinas and Nicoletti or some other officers should have let this go for now and look into some other things like interview Muneer Deeb but they decided to try to prove Rebecca DeMarias was lying, with that Salinas set up a lie detector test for Rebecca DeMarias.
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The next day Tuesday July 20, Salinas has set up the lie detector test for Rebecca DeMarias but before the test he decides to recontact Leigh Anne Hogeland, he calls her to find out if it was Rebecca that Leigh Anne had talked to. Leigh Anne admitted it was Rebecca she had talked to. Upon further questioning she states she knew Rebecca and had run into her at the Town West Center on Valley Mills at approximately at 7:30 p. m. on Wednesday July 14 and this is when Rebecca had told her this. This would contradict what Rebecca and her friends said. Again it becomes a question of whom to believe. There were already people supporting Rebecca’s chains of events. Leigh Anne tells Salinas that there was another girl with her; Gayla Scott. Salinas and Fortune go to the home of Gayla Scott and ask her about the night in question. Ms. Scott tells them yes she was with Leigh Anne that night but she doesn’t remember anybody talking about any dead bodies being found at Speegleville Park and though there were a lot of kids there that night she doesn’t remember seeing a girl matching the description of Rebecca DeMarias. Call me crazy but if some girl would have come up to me and a friend and started talking about 3 dead bodies and then within 12 hours the story of 3 murdered teens came out I would have remembered that! Gayla Scott could not confirm Leigh Anne’s version of events.
But the results of the lie detector test only clouded the issue even more. Sargent Sherrell, the officer that administered the test advised the results showed Rebecca had not run a true chart but he could not determine if she was lying to all the questions pertaining to the murders or if she was deadly afraid of something. Following this Salinas decides to interview Leigh Anne Hogeland again this time with her father. July 21 Mr. Hogeland brings Leigh Anne to the police station and Salinas interviews both, Leigh provides no further information. One week after the murders and into the investigation this is all the information the police had gotten on Tab Harper being at the park the night the kids went missing, one person: Rusty Escott has stated he was in the park that night and saw Tab Harper. I won’t get into the more that a dozen other people that stated they were at the park and could give the police more information about the other cars and people they had seen there, something Rusty could never do, and never saw Tab Harper or a black van, but their names and stories are also in the reports.
I would also add on July 20 Gayle Kelly came into the police station with Patti Deis to report that Patti’s apartment had been broken into. Ms. Kelly would be interviewed by officer Mike Nicoletti among others and he would ask her about Rebecca DeMarias and Tab Harper. Gayle would tell him DeMarias sold drugs at the high school on several occasions and that Kenneth liked partying with Tab Harper because he always had good stuff. She added that Kenneth had problems with the bikers and any dealings he had with the bikers was when he was making deals with Rebecca DeMarias. Nicoletti failed to ask Gayle Kelly anything about the information he had received the day before from Lisa Kader about Muneer Deeb!
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BREAK TIME, QUASHING RUMORS IS HARD WORK!!!
I would say just ask Ramon Salinas!!!
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Why don’t you talk to Ramon Salinas??
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I would talk to him, if I could find a way to contact him. But to be honest I’m not sure if Mr. Salinas would like to answer my questions but I would try, I will talk to anybody I can!!!
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Continuing on the Tab Harper investigation, picking up things where they stood after the first week into the investigation which ended with a final interview with Leigh Anne Hogeland and are father, Larry, on July 21. Salinas and Nicoletti got off the Tab Harper story for one day, July 22 and checked out some other information the police had received up to that time. But on the morning of July 23, approximately at 8:15 a. m. Salinas got a call from some one he had talked to on July 16, this was Scott Johnson. On the 16th Scott really didn’t have much to say, he was at the park Tuesday night and his friend had come looking for him and when the news of the murders came out his girlfriend had mentioned to him that she remembered seeing the orange pinto, Scott had called to tell police that his girl friend might be able to provide information about what she saw at the park that night, which she did. Now Scott was calling again on the July 23 because of a conversation he had with a friend the day before. The friends name was Robert Spikes and Scott said he had heard Robert Spikes had seen a black van and the people in the black van were arguing with the people in the orange pinto. Scott didn’t know Spikes phone number but he told Salinas he would try to get Spikes to call him. Salinas was able to find Spikes number and called him later that same morning.
Robert Spikes informed Salinas that no he hadn’t witnessed this himself he heard it from another guy named Tony Shaw. This Tony Shaw had told Tony that a guy named Rusty had told him (Tony) that he (Rusty) had talked to a girl named Becky and she had told him that she had talked to this other guy Wednesday morning about the bodies being found. Spikes originally said he thought the guys name that talked to Becky was Ken then changed it to Tab, whom be believe was Tab Harper. Mental note as is common with rumors as they spread the information gets mixed up, prime example; Spikes thought Becky had talked to Ken which we know can’t be the case Ken was one of the victims, this is how rumors work. Salinas knew this story about Rebecca “Becky” DeMarias so it wasn’t new to him but you can see he’s starting to see the problem with this story/rumor and in his report he writes this is all the information he has and it was just hearsay. But Salinas does have to follow up so he makes contact with Tony Shaw that same day.
Shaw confirmed the story Spikes had told Salinas and Tony said he had heard this directly from Rusty Escott. With this Salinas still realizes and notes with is still just hearsay, people are getting a story second handed. For those that are trying to keep count and it does get confusing, everybody that has talked to the police at this point, July 23, about Tab Harper have a connection to either Rusty Escott or Rebecca DeMarias. We have the 2nd anonymous caller that talked to Nicoletti on July 16 that said he had heard that a Rusty had talked to a girl about the bodies on Wednesday morning, Rusty Escott himself was the first anonymous caller on July 16, Then we have Scott Johnson, whom was at the park that night but didn’t really remember much and didn’t report seeing Harper or a black van. There’s Scott’s girlfriend, Shelly White whom was also at the park, she did see the orange pinto and a van but it was gray and she described the owner of this van as a male, looked to be older, late 20’s, than most of the people that hung out at Koehne Park and Shelly and another guy named Rick had talked to his guy in the gray van and he told them he was from Fort Worth. This Rick that Shelly mentions was probably Ricky Guthrie whom was at the park and talked to police and didn’t see Harper or a black van or Ricky Pate whom also was at the park that night with his girl friend Deanna Storts and the police talked to them and they hadn’t seen Harper or a black van either. The police would find that the owner of this gray van was just some salesman that was in the area for a few days. Then we have Amy Brown, Leigh Anne Hogeland, Robert Spikes and Tony Shaw, they have all told the police this story about Harper, none of these people were at the park that night so they didn’t witness anything they all got it second hand, hearsay! So what we have is a story that has originated and expanded between two people Rebecca DeMarias and Rusty Escott. Rusty claims he talked to Rebecca on Wednesday morning and that’s when she told him about what Tab Harper had told her. Rebecca claims she didn’t talk to Harper until Wednesday night so she couldn’t possibly be telling people about it Wednesday morning. And that is the crux of the matter when did Rebecca DeMarias talk to Tab Harper? We will see this will become a problem with other peoples accounts later on. This is the problem Salinas needs to solve, he’s already drilled Rebecca DeMarias a number of times and she’s not changing her story but he does not decide to go and talk to Rusty Escott which he hasn’t done to this point, in his report he writes Nicoletti has already talked to Rusty Escott and Salinas leaves it there for now.
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Detective Salinas had received a lot of information from all over the place by this time. One little piece of information he had gotten, he writes it was midnight July 20, was that a bike gang called the Scorpions had come down to Waco from Troy and they were claiming responsibility for murders. Salinas got this information from the Waxahachie police chief, he told Salinas another officer had picked up this information from an informant. When Salinas had first found Rebecca DeMariars on July 19 she was staying with a biker, with this information that a biker gang was claiming responsibility for the murders he taught there could be a connection and decided to take another crack at Rebecca. He and Sargent Fortune pick up Rebecca and bring her back to the police station on July 27.
For those that believe that Terry “Tab” Harper is guilty of committing these murders what Salinas reports while going this route becomes the best information the police would ever find that Tab Harper was in the park that night but with everything that has to do with Tab Harper there are many problems with it, Rebecca DeMariar didn’t know anything about this bike gang. There was a bike shop in Waco where apparently a lot of bikers hung out Salinas asked Rebecca about this. Again Rebecca said she didn’t know anything about this but she did have a friend that dated one of the bikers that worked at that shop and maybe she could help them. This girl’s name was Carren Ritchie and she was the next stop on Salinas’ radar.
Saiinas and Nicoletti pay a visit to Carren Ritchie at her apartment that day. Carren Ritchie wasn’t very helpful, yeah she knew a guy that worked at the shop, she didn’t know him that well only had known him from about a month, she didn’t even know his real name just his nick name; Angel. She had never heard of a bike gang called the Scorpions, the bikers that hung out at the shop weren’t a gang they didn’t fly colors or anything like that. She had remembered seeing Rebecca DeMarias the Friday before, July 23, at Flat Rock Park and Rebecca hadn’t said anything about any murders then, she had mentioned she had been picked up by the police and questioned but she did say anything because she didn’t know anything. That is all Salinas and Nicoletti got from Carren Ritchie but while they were there another girl came over. This girl was Kathy Prochnow, she knew Jill Montgomery from the Methodist Home and said she had met Raylene Rice months earlier with Jill, so she knew all the victims and she was in the park the night of July 13 between 7:30 p. m. and 9:00 p.m. and remember seeing Ken and the girls come into the park that night in the orange pinto. When Kathy was asked if she was with anybody she answered yeah she was riding a guy named Fingers and Carren Ritchie was riding with Angel. Kathy stated they were just driving through and didn’t talk to anyone.
Now here’s the problem, Salinas talks with this Angel, never gets his real name which is very questionable. It’s obvious that Salinas has told Angel that he has talked to the girls because when he asks Angel if he was in the park that night Angel replies yes he was there whatever time the girls said he was. For those familiar with the American justice system they surely have heard of a little thing called “leading a witness” which is prohibited, That is when an attorney gives a witness the answer the attorney wants in the question, example; proper question: whom did you see in the park that night? Leading the witness; Did you see Tab Harper at the park that night? Object leading the witness! Objection sustained! It’s kind of the same thing when being questioned by police, there is a huge difference between some one being questioning by an officer and giving a name unsolicited and the officer bringing up the name first and then the person talks about that h person. Again the same question that I used as my example of leading the witness would fit. So did Angel on his own bring up Tab Harper’s name or did Salinas ask him if he saw Tab Harper? Salinas does not make this clear, this is why police reports need to be clear and precise as possible just in case questions arise later, which one should expect with a capital punishment crime. Angel’s answer to Salinas’ first question that he was going along with whatever the girls had said lends support that Salinas asked Angel if he had seen Harper and Angel answered he had believing he was just going along with what the girls had said. And then when Salinas asks Angel about the vehicle Harper had at the park that night., Angel didn’t know he said he didn’t even know if Harper was in a van or a car. Angel couldn’t answer that question because he didn’t know what the girls had said, what he didn’t know was the girls never said they saw Harper that night at the park, Carren Ritchie never even said she was in the park that night. And the final argument that this was a weak and unreliable statement and Salinas knew this is the fact that Salinas never got any personal information from him in case he needed to talk to him later or use him as a witness at trial. Salinas didn’t get Angel’s real name nor address nor phone number, some might argue Salinas knew where he worked and that was enough, you get all information you can, as Salinas had done with every other person he had talked to and put it in the police reports. So this would be the only person independent of Rusty Escott but maybe not of Rebecca DeMarias that would state he saw Harper at Koehne Park that night. Good luck building a case on that statement, And of coarse this didn’t end Salinas’ interest in Tab Harper. I would also mention at this time, just so I am sure I put everything out there that is available there is one other little piece of information about Salinas’ interviews of July 27. On September 3, 1982 the day the Waco Police Department suspends the case Salinas ends his report with this sentence,”As of this time, have had no further developments in the case other than one of the witnesses that will come to talk to me on Sunday 9-5-82 in reference to her not telling me the complete truth the first time that I talked to her on July 27th. At this time, this case will be placed on the suspended file.” What girl was Salinas talking about? He talked to four girls that day Rebecca DeMarias, Carren Ritchie, Kathy Prochnow and Kim Lauderdale. Since Salinas said when he first talked to her on the 27th that would discount Rebecca, he had talked to her many times prior to the 27th. That leaves the other three girls Carren, Kathy and Kim and the first contact he made with all three of these girls was the 27th. Kim had called about another subject, Benny Smith, and she hadn’t been at the park that night, she just didn’t feel safe about this Benny guy, so nothing of great value as a witness to seeing something that happened that night. That would leave Carren and Kathy; the former had never said she was in the park that night, the later had. Which one wanted to change her story and what did she have to say? We don’t know because this meeting of July 5, if it did happen, is never mentioned in any of the police reports.
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By this time Rumors by Rusty was about to get shut down, During the morning of July 28, Salinas received a call from one Georgia Hofen, she stated that her children had told her that a subject by the name of Johnny Mayhew had told them that a guy named Rusty had come to his place the Friday after the murders and mentioned that he had seen the murdered kids get into the van of a subject that was known to be a bad guy. That’s all the information Mrs. Hofen had but Salinas new this story all to well, he knew whom this Rusty was and he knew whom the bad guy supposedly was. But looking into this Johnny Mayhew he found something very interested, Mayhew had gotten arrested on a weapons charge earlier in 82 and he had released his truck to one Arthur “Rusty” Escott. Though many people had mentioned Rusty no one seemed to know him very well, it looked like Mayhew might be the exception and maybe he could shed some light on this character.
Salinas contacts Mayhew and tells him about the information he had gotten about the conversation Mayhew supposedly had with Rusty on July 16. Mayhew informed Salinas Rusty has a big mouth and that he (Mayhew) never really listens to anything Rusty has to say because Rusty isn’t a credible person, that hit Salinas like a ton of brings, he now realizes he has been chasing down a rumor, those valuable early hours of the investigation have been wasted and lost on this story. He also realizes he has never talked to Rusty himself, only Nicoletti has, that’s about to change. Salinas contacts Nicoletti and tells him to bring Rusty to the police station so he (Salinas) can talk to him.
Nicoletti has Rusty at the police station by approximately 11:00 a.m. that morning, July 28. Salinas runs down all the information the police have on Rusty,; he had talked to Rebecca DeMarias on Wednesday July 14 in the morning and that at that time she told Rusty that Tab Harper had mentioned that there were dead bodies at Speegleville. That Rusty had been in the park that night and had seen Tab Harper and Harper was in a Black Van. The police had also been told Rusty had told people he saw the victims arguing with Harper and then the victims getting in Harper’s van. Salinas told Rusty he wanted all the details. Rusty sits there thinking about it, then gives Salinas details about the first encounter he had with Rebecca DeMarias and states it wasn’t Wednesday morning, it was Thursday. Rebecca DeMarias had been telling the truth this whole time. Salinas knows this changes everything, he writes in his report anyone could have heard about it Wednesday night. Then Salinas asks Rusty what he had seen at Koehne Park that night, Rusty stated he had seen the orange pinto and Harper sitting in a black van talking to some one standing outside the van. But now Rusty admits he never saw the victims, didn’t see them argue with Harper did not see them get into the van. That was just another tall tale Rusty had told, the basis of the rumor that still persists today, pitiful. That would be the end of the story of Tab Harper being seen at Koehne Park that Tueday night July 13, 1982.
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Though this would be the last mention of Tab Harper being at Koehne Park the night of July 13, it wouldn’t be the last time his name came up in reference to him being out at the lake Wednesday July 14 and/or Thursday July 15. And since I know I’m the first person that complains when I see people only tell the part of the story that fits their theory, I would be remissed if I did not post everything there is in the police reports about this until the Waco Police Department suspended the case on September 3, 1982.
On August 2, at approximately 9:00 a. m. Salinas received a call from a Bob Seggler Mr. Seggler told Salinas that he had talked to Nicoletti on July 27 about midnight they had been standing outside of Okey Dokeys, I guess this must have been a social occasion because Nicoletti never mentioned this, maybe he told Mr. Seggler he needed to call into the station which he finally did on August 2.
Mr. Seggler’s story was this; he knew this girl from the Gemini Apartments named Nell Priest and she had told him that she had talked to Tab Harper July 14 before news of the murders had come out and that her days were numbered, so she didn’t know how much longer she would be around. Seggler also said that Nell Priest had told him she had made an anonymous call about this to grime stoppers. This puts the focus back on Harper, even though they couldn’t put any faith in Rusty’s story maybe the stories of which girl Tab Harper had threatened had gotten mixed up, maybe it was Nell Priest that Harper had threatened not Rebecca DeMarias. First Salinas tries to get the information on the call to crime stoppers but there is no record of an anonymous female caller ever calling in about Harper. Then Salinas goes to the Gemini Apartments but Nell Priest isn’t home, Salinas leaves his card.
Nell Priest calls back later that day wondering why the police had left their card in her door. Salinas explains he would like to talk to her about some information he had received and asked her if she would come down to the station so they could talk about it in the privacy of an office, Nell agreed to come down. When she arrives Salinas tells her the information he has received, Nell denies any knowledge of this. Upon further questioning Nell tells Salinas about an incident she had with Tab Harper the year before at Airport Park. While she was walking to one of the restrooms Harper had come up behind her and picked her up and wouldn’t let her go. Nell busted a beer bottle over his head. After this Harper threw her on the ground pulled out a knife and said she should kill her for what she did. Nell informed Salinas she was not afraid of Harper at the time. She also stated about a week or two before the murders Harper had told her he was ready to go back to the pen and he was going to hurt some one before he did, this had happened in the Jack’s Stereo parking lot.
Nell Priest runs her dogs in the afternoon at Midway Park and she remembered she Harper there either Wednesday July 14 or Thursday July 15, she wasn’t sure, and Harper was with Mark Boatman and Harper was bragging about killing the two girls and the boy, she just thought Harper was exaggerating and didn’t pay that much attention to him. Nell stated that other kids were saying that if the police looked under the driver seat of Harper’s van they would find a bloody knife wrapped in a towel, Salinas knew wasn’t true because the police had looked in the van when they picked up Harper on July 15.
At first Nell Priest couldn’t give any names of the kids that she had heard this from or that were at Midway Park when Harper had said this, then she gave the name of the girl that had brought her to the police station, June Wilson and Nell added that it was June that had first asked her if she had heard about the murders on Thursday morning. This little piece of information is very important though it gets overlooked.
Salinas talks to June Wilson and she tells the same story and Nell did about going to Midway Park, she adds the details that Harper and Boatman had arrived in a boat and that she had followed Nell to the park and got there approximately at 3:30 p. m.. June said this had happened on Wednesday July 14. Then Salinas asked her if she had asked Nell if she had heard about the murders on Thursday morning, June agreed she had. Salinas sees the problem with this story, if June first asked Nell about this on Thursday morning the conversation they had with Harper couldn’t happen before that because that would have been when Nell first heard about the murders. June tells Salinas she needs to think about it and talk to some other of her friends that were there, again friends that won’t be named, and get back to him June called back the next day August 3 and left a message with Detective Trantham, she stated she was positive she heard this on Wednesday July 14. This is another one of those areas where if you look at all the information it looks like June Wilson was just mistaken about what she heard on what day. Some might argue maybe it was Nell that was mixed up but if you look at the fact that both girls agree that it was Thursday morning that June first talked to Nell about it that makes sense. If June first heard about this from Harper at Midway Park on Wednesday when she said she was there which was in the afternoon after school, she still could have not asked Nell about it Wednesday morning? It was Thursday morning, so the most probable scenario is June heard about the murders sometime Wednesday night, talked to Nell on Thursday morning which was the first Nell heard about it which both girls agree to and then Thursday afternoon both girls went to Midway Park Thursday afternoon and that when they ran into Harper. But that’s not the only problem with the girls story.
On August 5, Salinas and Holstein track down Mark Boatman at his place of employment. The officers share with Boatman what they have been told. Boatman informs them he hasn’t hung around with Harper for about a month and no he was in any boat at no Airport Park (that’s what it says in the report, though Salinas had been told it was Midway Park), he had been at work all week. Salinas and Holstein talked to Boatman’s boss and he confirmed Boatman had been at work and he had time cards to verify it. I would have to point out this is something Anthony Melendez could not do, his boss could not confirm Tony was at the work site he was suppose to be and they didn’t use time cards, they worked on a honor system, kind of strange working on a honor system with some one that is already hiding out from authorities because of a robbery, assault and rape charge, just my opinion.
Anyway Mark Boatman had a rock solid alibi that he was at work and couldn’t be at any of the parks around the lake at the time Nell and June say and add that it had to be Thursday when they saw Harper which would have been after the news of the murders had be put out, Salinas and the Waco Police Department wasn’t getting any closer to putting Terry “Tab” Harper at Koehne Park on Tuesday night and they never would.
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It looks like I need to clear something up regarding what I said about what Salinas did with his conversation with the biker Angel. I was not implying Salinas did anything wrong but an officer needs to be thorough, like I said clear and precise in his reports, Salinas failed to do this in this instance. For example in his reports when he talked to Nell Priest and Rusty Escott, Salinas clearly states he told them what he had been told by other people and they responded, Nothing wrong with that it shows that he brought up the subject matter they didn’t. This wasn’t the case with Angel, Salinas is vague did he ask Angel if he saw Harper or did Angel mention Harper own his own? We can’t be absolutely sure with what Salinas writes in his report. The one indicator we do have is Angel’s answer about being at the park, his response is yes he was there whenever the girls say he was. That tells us that he was aware Salinas knew he was at the park with the girls so Salinas must have told him this, it’s just not in the report nor is what else Salinas might have told him and that’s a problem. We can look at other reports from other officers to see this and maybe better understand it.
Sargent Baier was very clear and precise in most of his reports once he and Truman Simons took over the case on September 10 after the original officers investigating suspended the case. The first thing Baier and Simons did was go over the reports of the other officers to see if they had missed anything. They had; not one officer had talked to Muneer Deeb even though they were given information Deeb was responsible for the murders and they had never asked any of Kenneth’s friends about Deeb even though the information they had received was Deeb had killed Kenneth because of Gayle Kelly and they knew Kelly was a very close friend to Kenneth, her name kept coming up and even when she came in to the police station which was the day after the police had gotten this information about Deeb, they never asked her about Deeb, his name was never mentioned. Baier knew one of Kenneth’s friends; Bobby Brem and that’s where his investigation would start.
In his report detailing his interview with Bobby Brem, Baier clearly states he asked Brem about Muneer Deeb. Baier had brought up the subject not Bobby. It would be the same thing when the officers interviewed Gayle Kelly they brought up the subject of Muneer Deeb and again Baier writes that in his report. In contrast when Baier went to Fort Fisher to talk to Lou Booker, she was the girls’ supervisor, it was Ms. Booker that brought up Muneer Deeb and again Baier puts this in his report writing, “Ms. Booker brought up the fact without me saying anything about it”. That’s crystal clear and that’s what we should expect with all the police reports unfortunately we don’t get that.
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What information did the police, during their investion from Wenesday July 14 until September 3, obtain from people that were at Koehne Park the night the kids went missing? This can get a little confusing because they received information from people from many of the parks; Airport, Midway and Speegleville, they also obtained info from people out on the lake. They talked to some people a couple times and their stories changed. Some people went under hypnosis. Some would testify in court others would not.I see the number 17 as the number of people the police talked to that were there but from the reports you can see it was probably more. And that not counting to people they found out were at Koehne Park at a later time. Also we should count Mr. Franks he had been to Koehne Park and found the car sometime that night and he had spent most of the night at Midway Park which he failed to tell the police until about 2 weeks later. Clifford Oliver was another person that had been to Koehne Park that night and then returned the next morning with David Spence but there is some confusion when he first told police this. He would testify the he talked to Lt. Horton a couple days later when he came in to take care of the check that had bounced when he paid to get his car out of the impound but Horton’s report doesn’t say anything about this. So I have tried to make a simple list; Name of witness, date interviewed, what vehicles and/or people they saw and little detail if needed. Since I recently went through Rusty Escott, Kathy Prochnow and the Biker Angel I won’t go through their statements again but they also could be counted.
1) Rick Guthrie – 7/15 – He went to the park about 9:15 p.m. with a friend Phil Schultz, when they got their the Orange Pinto was already there and the front seats were pushed up as if people had gotten out of the back seat, he didn’t see the kids. He also remember seeing a white truck with tool boxes which was there when they got there and was still there when they left, He also remember seeing a group of blacks partying around one of the picnic tables Guthrie reported seeing one other car, a new small black or dark car that pulled up beside the Orange Pinto sat there for awhile but left before Guthrie and Schultz. He would testify during Spence’s second trial and his story would change.
2) Scott Johnson – 7/16 – Scott had gone to the park about 6:30 p.m. and his girlfriend came looking for him late. He really didn’t remember anything he saw but his girlfriend Shelly White had mentioned to him she remembered seeing the Orange Pinto, so Scott called the police to tell them maybe they should talk to her.
3) Shelly White – 7/17 – Shelly stated she went to the park about 7:30 p.m. to look for Scott and she saw the Orange Pinto down at the circle at that time. She drove around the circle again around dark, 9:00 p.m. – 9:30 p.m., and the Orange Pinto was still there. Shelly also had seen a red car and a white truck parked in the circle, In addition Shelly recalled seeing a gray van, she and another guy name Rick talked to the owner of this van. The police would do follow ups with both Scott and Shelly, nothing new with what they saw that night
4) Debbie Cunningham – 7/17 – Debbie was with a friend parked in a truck by the boat ramp she reported seeing a white male standing behind the truck, he walked up to the window, when the guy Debbie was with reached under the seat like he was going to pull out a weapon this guy took off. Later Debbie was shown a photo line-up to see if she could identify the guy she saw from any of the photos, she picked out one of the Payne brothers. The Payne Brothers had tried to blame the murders on James “Blinky” Lucas.
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5) Ronald Robinson – 7/17- Ronald went to the park approximately 1:30 a.m. July 14. He was with a friend; John Kent, they had been at Okey Dokey’s and were with a girl he couldn’t name that was highly intoxicated if not passed out, they had taken her to the park to get her to sober up so she could tell them where she lived so they could take her home. According to Ronald while they were sitting there the Orange Pinto pulled in and a few minutes later a green Duster pulled in behind the Pinto and the male driver of the Pinto got in the Duster and they took off. A few minutes later a Lincoln Continental pulls in and parks near the Pinto. The white male in this car was smoking hash and invited Ronald to come party at his place and gave his address and phone number. With this information the police found this person to be Robert Freuh.
After Gayle Kelly told Nicoletti that she had been followed by 3 black guys in a blue car, he remembered Salinas talking about Robinson, so they decided to talk to Ronald again which occurred on Jul 25 and now Ronald’s story changed. Now he stated that he and John Kent with this drunk girl had left Okey Dokey’s around 11:45 p.m. and when they got to the park the Orange Pinto was already there and he didn’t see anybody around it. He did see a Duster pull up later but it was blue not green as he stated earlier, note: Ronald was in a blue Duster also. This blue duster Robinson now says he saw at about 12:45 a.m. He added a few details about his conversation with Robert Freuh. Robert was looking for a blonde driving a Monte Carlo. Robinson also added that he thought he knew Robert from before when he was in junior high school, Freuh was a substitute teacher. Ronald didn’t see any other people and didn’t see any one around the Orange Pinto.
6) Melinda Wells – 7/16 – States she was at the park approximately at 11:00 p.m., she saw the Orange Pinto and the three kids at that time. Melinda also remembered seeing a white truck and a white car.
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7 & 8) David Pearcy & Candyce Satterwhite – 7/16 – This couple was originally interviewed together, they had arrived at the park at approximately 10:15 p.m., were in a silver and gold 1978 Malibu and parked close to the Orange Pinto. They remembered seeing the white work truck, Ms. Satterwhite was able to provide more detail about this truck, see added that the truck had like a magnetic sign with red letters, she thought the letters were :Chaz”. The couple also remembered seeing a white car and as they were leaving they saw a red and white Ford truck. Candyce and David both agreed to be placed under hypnosis.
David was placed under hypnosis on July 21 and pretty much gave the same info he had given on July 16. Candyce was placed under hypnosis on July 22, she also gave close to the same account she had earlier but now she had more to add. Keep in mind the couple had parked next to the Pinto which was parked to their left, the white work truck was parked to their right. Now Ms. Satterwhite says she saw a blond hair girl wearing blue jeans or dark pants and a purple and gray halter top, it looked like the girl was coming from the truck that was parked directly behind the Pinto, Candyce couldn’t be sure, this girl that she saw was standing behind the vehicle. After this Candyce went back to describing the white work truck that was parked to their right, nothing else was said about this other truck that had pulled in behind the Pinto that was parked to their left, couldn’t be the same truck.
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9) DeAnna Storts – Like so many other things there is some confusion in the reports regarding when DeAnna contacted authorities. The first mention of DeAnna Storts is in Sargent Holstein’s report of July 19, it’s just her name. In the morning of Monday July 19 the Waco Police held a meeting among all the officers that were working on the case, there was so much information coming in they wanted to make sure that all this information was being shared and getting to the people that needed it. The department had brought in officers just to handle the phones so many calls were coming in, it looks like Holstein was one of the officers working the phones at this point, she was contacting the people whom had called in or those whose names had come in, she was making the initial contacts. This is how she came across DeAnna Storts, she had called the crime stoppers shortly after the bodies had been found. During that call she had stated she though she had seen Kenneth Franks in a car, the person taking the call asked her if she had the licences plate number of this car, DeAnna said she didn’t and she was told to call back when she had that information, she would call back about three weeks later, still don’t know what date this was. Holstein called her on either July 22 or July 23, it;s in her report of July 23. DeAnna tells Holstein that she went to the park with her boyfriend Ricky Pate, they arrived at the park at 9:15 p.m., she was sure about the time she said because she looked at her watch when they got to the park. She stated she saw the Orange Pinto with Kenneth Franks with the two girls come into the park, she knew Kenneth but didn’t know the girls. She waved to Kenneth and asked him how he was doing and he said fine. DeAnna saw the Pinto drive down to the circle, she and Ricky left to go get something to eat and were gone for about 20 minutes. When they returned the Pinto was still parked down in the circle, she never saw the kids nor the car leave, DeAnna and Ricky left between 10:30 p.m. and 11:00 p.m.. There was no mention of seeing Kenneth in another car during this conversation, that could be because DeAnna hadn’t found the licences plate of that car yet and didn’t think it was worth mentioning. DeAnna Storts would not be contacted again until November 17, when Salinas came across the information DeAnna had given crime stoppers the second time; the plate number of the car she thought she saw Kenneth in. Salinas set up an interview for November 19.
During the July 19 interview DeAnna related the same thing she had told Holstein back in July. Now she tells Salinas about the car she saw Kenneth in, it was the car belonging to Robert Freuh, she remembered seeing Kenneth riding in this car with an elder gentleman she didn’t know, they left the park. the gentleman driving came back about 25 minutes later but DeAnna didn’t see Kenneth in the car at this time. The car left and returned to the park a couple times but she never saw Kenneth again. Being questioned about this, DeAnna explains to Salinas how she had called crime stoppers right after she heard about the murders but she didn’t have the license plate number and was told to call back when she did, which she did a few weeks later. With this information Salinas set up a hypnosis session for DeAnna which took place the next day; July 20 and she told the same story under hypnosis. With this information the police would talk to Robert Freuh for the first time.
10) Robert Freuh – 11/22 – Rev. Freuh told the police he had arrived at the park between 1:00 a.m. and 1:30 a.m. July 14 and that he had talked to two couples in a truck, he was looking for a girl he said he was suppose to meet after she got off work. This would match what Ronald Robinson had told the police about his encounter with Freuh at the park, the time and that he was looking for a girl, though Freuh didn’t mention talking to anyone in a blue Duster. The police noting that the information didn’t coincide with other information they had received asked Mr. Freuh if he would agree to take a lie detector test, they told him to think about it for a few days. When they contacted Freuh days later he told them to talk to his lawyer and if his lawyer thought it was a good idea he would take the test. Robert Freuh never took the test.
11) Ricky Pate – Holly Holstein called Ricky the same day she called DeAnna Storts. Ricky didn’t remember much, he didn’t know Kenneth or the girls and he didn’t paying attention to the car. He did state DeAnna had told him she had seen the car and recgonized the subjects. Ricky was also able to confirm the time he and DeAnna left, stating that he got home about 11:15 p;m. which tallied with DeAnna’s accout.
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I knew Robert Frueh years before–when it seemed as if he would be the last person in the world connected with drugs, crime, teenage boys, etc. I am interested in finding out what happened with him–how he ended up becoming the person described here and in other accounts.
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Hello dm, Robert Frueh was killed some years later, if I’m not mistaken it was a teenage boy that killed him and I think there was some questionable circumstances, I will have to look back and read some of the old articles. I know there are people that know more about it than I so maybe they can better ask your question, I will ask. Mr. Frueh was a preacher, was a substitute teacher and also worked at 4-C College, I don’t know when his questionable behavior began but he had a reputation by the time the Lake Waco Murders occurred. There were three people that would mention Robert Frueh in connection with this case; Benny Poston. Ronald Robinson and Deanna Storst.
Benny Poston was a biker and his wife Donna worked with Mr. Frueh at 4-C College. Mr Poston reported that Mr. Frueh would invite people to his house offer them alcohol and drugs, show pornographic movies and make sexual advances towards the men. He added that Mr. Frueh frequented the parks around the lake.
Ronald Robinson would report to police that he saw Robert Frueh at Koehne Park. His original story was thus, Robinson got to the park between 1: a.m. and 1:30 a.m., he said he was there with a girl that was highly intoxicated and he was trying to get her to sober up so he could find where she lived so he could take her home. After he had been sitting there for a while he saw the Orange Pinto (The victim’s car) pull in, a green Duster pulled in behind the Pinto and the male subject that was driving the Pinto got into the Duster and they took off. A couple minutes later a Lincoln Continental comes into the park and pulls in close to the Pinto. The driver of this car came over to Robinson. This subject was smoking hash according to Robinson and asked him if he ever wanted to party to give him a call, the subject gave his name as Bob and also gave Robinson his phone number and address. This is how the police were able to determine it was Robert Frueh, This was Robinson’s first story it would change when the police talked to him a second time.
Before we get back to Robinson, we should get to the third person, Deanna Storts, want to keep things in proper order. The Waco police had heard about Benny Poston and talked to Ronald Robinson the first time on Saturday July 17, 1982. Somewhere in that same time period Deanna Storts apparently called the Crime Stoppers hotline to report she may have information about the murders, there is some question when she called, the first we see of her name is in Holly Holstien’s report for July 19, 1982 and it just mentions her name, it looks as though at that time Sargent Holstien was responsible for making contact with all those that called in, so with that by seeing Deanna’s name on the report for July 19 it would tell us that she had called by then, Detective Ramon Salinas would state later he never knew about the first call. So we don’t know exactly when Deanna called the first time or what she said. When Holstien made contact with DeAnna, the only information she gave was that she was at the park and that she remembered seeing Kenneth and that she had talked to him briefly and he replied, so she was positive it was Kenneth. Deanna’s boyfriend Ricky confirmed they were at the park when Deanna. Really not much information there so the police don’t talk to Deanna again until November.
As all this was going on the apartment of Patti Deis had been broken into twice, Gayle Kelly had been staying with Patti Deis but she returned to the Methodist Home after the second break in. Officer Mike Nicoletti would go to the Home on July 23, 1982 to talk to Gayle, the second break in had just happened the night before. While be interviewed Gayle mentions that a couple days earlier, July 21, while she was out running errands she was followed by three black guys in a blue car, she said she discussed this with Patti and Patti told her she had been followed by the same car and people. Nicoletti remembered the report Salinas had made on Ronald Robinson, a black male that was in a blue car, Nicoletti tells Salinas the information Gayle told him and they decide to interview Ronald Robinson again, this would take place on July 25, 1982.
Ronald Robinson’s story changed by this time. Now the Orange Pinto was already in the park when he got there, A car did pull in but now it was a blue Duster not green and there is no mention of anyone getting picked up. His story about Robert Frueh stays pretty much the same, Robinson adds the Frueh asked him about a girl Frueh was apparently suppose to meet. And now Robnison says he thinks he knows Frueh from before, Frueh was a substitute teacher at his junior high and was a known homosexual. Robinson gives the detectives the name of the friend he was with that night, John Kent. I don’t think the police were ever able to find this guy or at least hadn’t by the time the case was suspended in September.
So that was all the information the police had on Robert Frueh when the case was suspended on September 3, 1982. In November when the detectives were going back over the reports and checking to see if they missed anything that’s when Ramon Salinas came across Deanna Stort’s second call to the Crime Stoppers hotline and now she had a lot more to say. Deanna told Salinas she had originally called the hotline only a few days after the murders were reported, she had told them that she saw Kenneth Franks in a Lincoln Continental and that she saw Kenneth leave the park in this car and she remembered seeing that car return but Kenneth wasn’t in the car when it returned. The person taking the call asked Deanna if she had the license plate number of the car and she didn’t so Deanna was told to call back when she did. In the interim is when Holstien called, Deanna didn’t mention the car to Holstien because she still hadn’t found the plate number and Holstien hadn’t asked her anything about it. A few days later Deanna called the hotline again now she had the plate number, it was Robert Frueh, but no one had gotten back with her until Detective Salinas did so in Novenber. With this new information Salinas decided they needed to interview Robert Frueh which had never been done.
Robert Frueh was interviewed on November 22, 1982, his story pretty much matched up with what Ronald Robinson had reported to police. Frueh stated he had been out at the park around 1:00 a.m. and he was looking for a girl, just as he had told Robinson. Frueh didn’t mention anything about the hash or making any offers for Robinson to come party with him. And his story didn’t match what Deanna Storts had told the police, she had stated she had seen him at the park much earlier. With that the police thought he wasn’t being honest with them, so they asked if he would be willing to take a lie detector test. Salinas told Frueh to think about it and call him back in a few days. When Frueh didn’t call back Salinas contacted him, now Frueh told him that he had gotten an attorney, Lou Bright, and if the police wanted him to take a lie detector test they needed to talk to Lou Bright and if Mr. Bright would advise Frueh if he should or shouldn’t take the test. Salinas called Lou Bright but never got a return call. And that would be the conclusion of Robert Frueh’s involvement in this case.
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I am responding to dm957.
I am curious as to the “person” you knew Robert Frueh to be. The consensus of opinion on his reputation definitely NOT FAVORABLE.
WHAT IS THE ROBERT FRUEH YOU KNEW??
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12) Terry Barrett – 7/23 – State he arrived at the park approximately at 6:45 p.m., he saw the Orange Pinto and the two girls. He also saw a Blue Chevy driven by a white male pull up next to the Pinto and talked to the girls then left. Terry also remembered seeing the white work van. Barrett said he was in the park for only about a half hour. He would call the police later that day to inform them that he had heard another guy named John Henderson had also been at the park that night.
13) Larry McBride – 7/26 – The police had received information that this subject frequently went to Koehne Park and picked up girls and took them out on his boat to water ski. Salinas and Fortune tracked down McBride. McBride confirmed that he regularly went out to Koehne Park and picked up girls to go water skiing. He had been at the park on July 13 from approximately 4:00 p.m. until dark and picked up a couple girls, he thought their names were Donna and Sharon, didn’t know their last names, these girls were students at Richfield High School. He told Salinas and Fortune if he talked to these girls in the future he would tell them the police were interested in talking with them. McBride couldn’t provide any further information, he was shown pictures of Jill and Raylene but he didn’t remember seeing them at the park. Nor did he remember seeing Kenneth or the Orange Pinto.
14) John Henderson – 7/28 – John had gone to the park with his friend Kenny Young at approximately 7:00 p.m., he remembered seeing Kenneth and the girls drive in the park in the Pinto. Later in the evening he remembered seeing them sitting on a bench talking close to where the Pinto was parked. The only other vehicle John could remember was the white van. Henderson would be contacted by Salinas again on November 19, this was in reference to Henderson seeing Kenneth and the girls getting into a bright colored Trans-Am or Z28 on Monday night July 12. Of coarse this could not have been Jill and Raylene they were not in Waco on Monday, If Henderson did see Kenneth with two girls getting into a sports car on Monday, it had to be two other girls. Gayle Kelly’s friend Patty Deis had a peach colored Thunderbird, Gayle and Kenneth were close friends, so could this have been the case. The problem with this is Gayle was suppose to be on restriction at the Methodist Home not allowed to leave the grounds. Again Salinas’ report is not clear on this subject he states “At this time John Henderson advised he had not been at Koehne Park that night”. What night? Stating John is saying this “At this time” makes it sound that that is in contradiction to what he may have said at a prior time. So what night was John there, Salinas would talk to Henderson’s friend Kenny Young next.
15) Kenny Young – 7/28 – Kenny stated he did go to the park with John Henderson the night of July 13 and did see Kenneth and the girls come into the park in the Orange Pinto, But later when He and John were driving around the park and went down to the circle he didn’t remember seeing the Pinto or Kenneth and the girls. He didn’t remember seeing anything, he said his mind must have been somewhere else at the time. Kenny Young would testify during David Wayne Spence’s second trial.
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16) Charles Ramsey – 7/27 & 7/28 – Mr. Ramsey was the owner of the white work truck/van many of the witnesses had mentioned seeing in the park, During his first interview with Holstein, Ramsey stated he got to the park about 4:30 p.m. and the orange Pinto was already there and he stayed at the park until about midnight. He also remembered seeing two black females and three black males at one of the picnic tables. Mr. Ramsey fell asleep off and on while he was there but did see a number of vehicles coming and going. He was sure he got to the park between 4:30 p.m. and 5:00 p.m.. He observed a light colored or silver car pull in and sit for awhile, there were two males in this car, they left then back back and at a little while longer, he didn’t remember seeing any one get out of this car. Ramsey stated that the group of black people he saw were in a yellow car. He remembered seeing a dark brown van, it didn’t stop just drove through. He also said that the Orange Pinto never moved the whole time he was there, it was in the same when he left as it was when he pulled in.
Holstein and Salinas would interview Ramsey a second time the next day. Asked about what time he arrived at the park Ramsey said it was approximately 5:00 p.m. and that it could not have been any later than 5:30 p.m., Mr. Ramsey didn’t have a watch and the clock in his truck didn’t work. He had come to Waco to bid on a job, that was about 3:30 p.m. after that he came to the park to watch the skiers and get some rest before he headed back to Rosebud. Again he stated the orange Pinto was already parked there, it was parked facing the lake. He retold the same story of the black people he saw at the picnic table. Then Mr. Ramsey got into some of the vehicles he saw. There was an old car, color he couldn’t remember that pulled behind him. A subject got out, went to one of the picnic tables, ate which took about 20 to 25 minutes and then left. He remembered seeing another old car that was dark in color that parked on the other side of the Pinto, Mr. Ramsey was parked to the left of the Pinto. He mentioned the yellow car again. Before dark he saw the light gray or silver car with two white males pull in between his truck and the Pinto. This car sat there for awhile then left. Around dusk this car returned and sat for a while again. Mr. Ramsey couldn’t remember seeing anyone get out of this car. Then at dark or a little after the group of blacks got in the yellow car and left. About this time he got out of his truck and walked around and he didn’t see anybody out walking around at that time. Ramsey added he fell a sleep off and on during this time and he didn’t remember seeing another car pull in but he did hear and see two couples laughing and carrying on at one of the picnic tables. He dozed off again then another car pulled in right beside the Pinto and a boy and girl got out and walked toward the lake, they stayed down there about a half hour.and then left. He was asked if he had seen a white van or anything like that, he said the only dark color van he had seen was the brown van he had mentioned before and that it had two big picture windows.
Though Charles Ramsey’s recollection of July 13 is very interesting it is just impossible to reconcile his time line with regards to seeing the Orange Pinto at the Park about 5:00 p.m. and that it never moved from the time he got there until he left.
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17) Bonnie Wood – 7/29 – Ms. Wood called the police station, she heard the news that the police wanted to talk to a group of blacks that had been to Koehne Park Tuesday July 13, she stated she had been at the park with some friends and her brother from approximately 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m., she didn’t remember seeing the orange Pinto. The only vehicle she could recall seeing was the white truck. Salinas asked her if she could come in and look at some photos of the Pinto and then see what she might remember. Ms. Wood agreed to come in later that day.
At the station Bonnie stated pretty much the same thing she had said when she called but now she remembered the orange Pinto and said that it pulled in after she and her friends were already there. She remember seeing three white people two girls and one boy and the three parked they got out and walked to one of the picnic tables that was near by. She also remembered seeing a white station wagon with brown panel sides pull in between the white truck and orange Pinto. Then she remembered seeing a boy and girl in a white tennis suit walking and changed her story that she had seen this couple get out of a car not the three kids in the Pinto but she did remember seeing the Pinto pull in and it was there when Ms. Wood and her friends left about 9:00 p.m.. Ms. Wood gave the names of the other people in her group and told Salinas that Regayle Bush might be able to provide more details, the other names she gave were Byron Wood; her brother, Martha Turner and Haywood Lott.
18) Regayle Bush – 7/30 – Ms. Bush also stated they had arrived at the park between 7:00 p.m and 7:15 p.m., she remembered seeing the orange Pinto with the three kids pull in about 7:40 p.m. She also remembered seeing the couple walking around and that the girl was wearing a white tennis suit. Ms. Bush stated that Bonnie’s car was parked only 8 to 10 feet away from the Pinto and that the Pinto was still there when she left with her friends at approximately 9:20 p.m.
19) Byron Wood – 7/30 – While Salinas interviewed Regayle Bush, Nicoletti interviewed Byron Wood, Nicoletti couldn’t get much information from Mr. Wood. Salinas wrote in his report that it looked like Bonnie, Byron and Regayle had talked together before talking to the police, they all remembered seeing the girl in the white tennis suit whom the police knew was Candyce Satterwhite.
20) Martha Turner – 7/30 – Ms. Turner stated they had gotten to the park between 8:00 p.m. and 8:15 p.m., she remembered seeing the white truck that had some writing on the side, it was there when they pulled in. She remembered seeing the orange Pinto pull in with the three kids and the kids getting out and walking down to the point which was out by the water, they just sat there in a circle talking for about 20 to 30 minutes, Ms. Turner didn’t see any one else walk down there or talk to the kids. Then close to dark she observed the kids walking back towards the Pinto. She did not see if they kids talked to anyone or got into another car and didn’t remember seeing any vehicle stop or pull in between the Pinto and the white truck. Ms. Turner said she left with her friends between 9:00 p.m. and 9:15 p.m. and did not see if the kids had left or not, she did not believe the Pinto left from the time Ms. Turner got there until she left. Another car she remembered seeing was a old brownish ragged station wagon, with one white male and a few small children and that only one of two of the small children got out and ran around, this car left before Ms. Turner and her friends. She remembered seeing a sort of green pastel car pull in and that a couple was in the car but they never got out of the car, this car also left before she did. And as the others in her group she remembered seeing the girl in the white tennis outfit. Ms. Turner was interviewed by Holstein and Holstein states she thinks Martha was mixing up the girl in the white tennis outfit with the two girls in the Pinto, so Holstein asked if she would be willing to be placed under hypnosis, Martha stated she understood the importance and would be willing.
21) Patsy Lyon – 8/19 – The police first became of aware of Patsy Lyon when they received an anonymous call from a lady in Waco that reported Ms. Lyon had been out at Koehne Park most of the night with a male subject that wasn’t her husband. Salinas asked the anonymous caller to have Ms. Lyon call him so he wouldn’t have to call her house, Patsy Lyon never called. Salinas finally tracked her down on August 19, Ms. Lyon stated she had been at the park with Tim Vestal and they had parked in the boat ramp area. She felt like she had seen an orange car but she wasn’t sure if it was the Pinto, she didn’t know much about cars. She was shown pictures of the kids but she couldn’t remember seeing the kids, she didn’t see anybody around the cars at that time which she said was around 10:30 p.m., Ms. Lyon and Mr. Vestal left the park about that time and came back around midnight and stayed until about 3:00 a.m..
22) Tim Vestal – 8/18 – Tim said about the same thing Patsy had said, he thought he had seen the orange car but he didn’t know if it was a Pinto. Mr. Vestal did add that he and Ms. Lyon were only in the boat ramp area they never drove down into the circle. He never heard anything out of the ordinary the whole long time they were out there.
So there it is 22 eyewitness accounts covering the hours from 5:00 p.m. until 3:00 a.m.; Tab Harper sightings: ZERO, Black Van sightings: ZERO. The closest we get is one account of a brown van.
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And now the story of Mary Padilia. The Waco Police Department first became aware of Mary Padilia when they received a call from one Steve Turnage on July 23 whom stated he had attended the funeral of Kenneth Franks, while there he talked to Mary. Turnage described Mary Padilia as a 17 year old girl that attended Waco High. Steve stated Mary had told him she saw the kids get into a van, this was all the information Steve Turnage had. Remind you this was still when the police were hot and heavy on the trail of Tab Harper, any information that remotely sounded like it involved him they were all over. Salinas and Fortune tracked down Mary Padilia on July 26. She told the officers she had seen Kenneth Franks at the 7-11 store at N. 19th and Park Lane at approximately 9:00 p.m. and that he was talking to a female in a silver truck in front of Chief’s auto next to the 7-11. Mary said she yelled out to him and waved and Kenneth looked her way but she didn’t think he saw her. There was no mention of a van or kids getting in a van, no Tab Harper, so that looked like the end of that.
Then on August 30 Salinas made contact with Wilson Sockwell. Mr. Sockwell stated he had had a conversation with his twin daughters Cindy and Lindy whom had heard information that Kenneth Franks was seen in a truck the night of the murders. Mr. Sockwell said his daughters had received this information from another source. Cindy and Lindy were seniors at Valley Mills High School, that would be Salinas’ next stop.
Salinas talked to the girls at the school and they admitted they had told their dad this story about Kenneth being seen in a truck the night of the murders and they got this information from Janet McLemore and Ms. McLemore had told the twins she had heard it from her cousin Darlene Bland. Cindy and Lindy stated that a friend of Darlene’s friend had said that Kenneth was seen in a truck sitting between two subjects and the girl that had seen this had waved to Kenneth but Kenneth didn’t wave back which the girl didn’t understand because she was a real close friend to Kenneth. Cindy and Lindy added they thought this had happened at Koehne Park. Salinas got Darlene Bland’s mother’s information from the school and paid her a visit at work.
Mrs. Bland, Darlene’s mother, told Salinas that Darlene’s last name was now Ledlow and further stated Darlene had told her this story about this Kenneth Franks being seen in this truck with two other subjects but Mrs. Bland didn’t know anything about Kenneth. Salinas then went to Darlene Ledlow and Mrs. Ledlow told him she had heard the story from Kathy Collins and Kathy had heard it from another friend that Darlene didn’t know. Salinas tracked down Kathy Collins.
Ms. Collins stated she heard the story from friend named Paula Radcliffe and gave Salinas Paula address phone number. When Salinas went to the address provided by Ms. Collins he realized it was the house right across the street from Kenneth Frank’s close friend Bobby Brem. During his interview with Ms. Radcliffe she told Salinas she had heard the story from Bobby Brem and Bobby had told her he had heard it from a girl that had seen Kenneth in this truck at Koehne Park. With that Salinas went across the street and talked to Bobby Brem. Bobby told him that he had heard the story from Mary Padilia, she had told him she had seen Kenneth in this truck at Koehne Park not N. 19th and Park Lane and Bobby though Mary had told him the truck was silver. Next Salinas went to Mary Padilia’s address but she wasn’t home so he left his card asking her to call. When Mary called Salinas was out but she did call back the following day while she was at work.
Again Mary Padilia told Salinas see had seen Kenneth at N. 19th and Park Lane. Salinas informed her that he had received information from Bobby Brem, whom Mary state was a good friend, and he had said that Mary had told him she saw Kenneth at Koehne Park. Then Mary Padilia again denied this but added she had been at Koehne Park later about 9:30 p.m. but she had not seen Kenneth at this time. She had never said anything about being at Koehne Park before. Salinas asked her to come to the station so the could discuss this matter in confidence, Mary Padilia said she would come in on Sunday September 5.
Lessons to be learned from the story of Mary Padilia; the first one that comes to mind if you are keeping track is Mary Padilia was the girl Salinas mentioned in his last report before the case was suspended on September 3 when he stated that the last thing he had to do was talk to a witness he had talked to first on July 27 and she hadn’t been completely truthful. This is a prime example why it is vital to be clear and precise when writing reports. Salinas didn’t talk to Mary on July 27 it was July 26, he probably should have just wrote he needed to talk to Mary Padilia again. As anyone that follows this case knows, files, reports and evidence can get lost and/or damaged you don’t know what you could use down the road or what will still be available again that’s why it’s important that everything properly purveys the information it’s meant to provide.
Mary Padilia’s story just as Rusty Escott’s had circulated around so much before the police ever heard about it. In Rusty’s case it went from Tony Shaw whom had heard it directly from Rusty to Robert Spikes and finally to Scott Johnson whom went to the police with this information. The trail of Mary Padilia’s information was much longer from Bobby Brem all the way to Mr. Sockwell. All these accounts are at least second hand and are nothing more than hearsay but they are so far away from second hand information it is only considered hearsay in the fact that some one did hear some one say this. When information or a story passes through so many people that it can’t even be considered second hand maybe there should be another term than hearsay, There is it’s called rumor. Each step information is removed from the original source the facts become more distorted and the more the steps it can become so distorted that the information becomes unreliable to the point it is totally useless.
We must also consider the original source and why didn’t they just go to the police in the first place. If they were telling other people they definitely wanted to talk about it why not give that information to the people that could do the most with it and would serve a good purpose. And you have to think if this information is going around and not going to the proper people it could get back to the person that the information would most harm and they could react in one way or another and it also gives them time and time works against investigators and resolution could be lost forever.
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Responding to question by R7236 re Robert Frueh: I knew Robert as a teacher and a minister–before his move to Waco. He was kind to me and several other kids I knew, dedicated to his church and helping folks. I always figured him for gay–though I think at that time he have been trying desperately not to be gay. Very sad. And he wasn’t involved in drugs–perhaps the key issue in terms of who he became.
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Thank you dm957 for responding. It does sound as though his life changed drastically after his move to Waco.
He used and abused young people according to reports from the 80’s.
Sad !
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