Hello Mrs. Thompson, thank you for your reply and sorry I haven’t been able to respond earlier. I know you are Jill Montgomery’s aunt and I have talked to you before, actually the last time I contacted you was probably over a year ago after the Michael Hall article in Texas Monthly had started making the rounds on the internet, I sent you a message on Facebook. As then and as it remains now as you can obviously see I still have many questions. Having said that I really don’t know where to start and I might ask things that have already been gone over to complete exhaustion, may I apologize in advance if this is the case.
I guess the first question I have about this case has to do with Terry “Tab” Harper or more precisely his viability as a real suspect. Anyone that knows anything about this case has heard his name repeatedly, over and over. So I guess my question is this, we know that a number of officers were at odds with the direction of the investigation Sgt. Simons conducted and the subsequent arrest and convictions of Spence, Deeb and the Melendez brothers, Lt. Horton and Det. Salinas among them. But it was Det. Salinas and Det. Nicoletti that brought “Tab” Harper in, interrogated him, and released him with the belief that he wasn’t responsible for the murders. I may be mistaken about this but I think I read somewhere the reason they thought this was because Harper had a rock solid alibi. Is this true and did any of the officers that were investigating this case ever tell you one way or the other what they found, thought or felt about Harper???
Hope to hear from you soon, I still have other countless questions. Thank you!!!
What questions do you have. explain why you felt the need to start this page. I understand that you feel that the whole truth was not told but dont you feel that the family has had closure with the convictions and youre bringing up something that they have already come to terms with. Do you feel that the convicted are innocent ???
There is no such thing as closure ! Especially when you feel the real killers were not charged. Time takes care of daily remembrance of graphic pictures and events during investigations, but time doesn’t erase the hole in your heart. God will be the final Judge and I am thankful for that.
If there is a possibility that the people convicted were not guilty, it should be so noted. And that is a possibility! !
Mrs. Thompson, I know this is probably an unfair question and I can understand if I don’t get a reply. I know you have doubts about the convictions, as I do. I would have to admit mine are very slim and it’s hard to try to weigh that, what constitutes reasonable doubt? And knowing how hard it is for someone like me, someone without any vested interest, how much more immeasurably difficult it is for someone that is personally connected to the case. So I guess my question would be this; Are your feelings about these convictions are they more like just having doubts or more like you feel the wrong people were convicted? I know it’s nearly impossible to differentiate between the two especially for someone so close to the case but there is a difference. One would definitely have doubts when there are so many questions left unanswered as we sure have in this case, that’s one thing having doubts because you didn’t get all the answers but you still can be convinced of someone’s guilt without all the questions being answered. Or by not getting these answers do you question the guilt?
Hey L.T. of coarse I can’t and won’t even try to speak for the families but I think you will see they have plenty of doubts and questions. The reason I decided to start this page was I wanted there to be a place where anybody could go and express their thoughts, feelings and opinions, whatever they may be as long as they are relevant to the case. Something I think has been missing and you see many other cases all over the internet.
For my own questions there are so many. I guess I would put it like this I’ve always doubted the mistaken identity theory even back when I first read Careless Whispers back in the 80’s, Great book, very intriguing story but still the case of mistaken identity just didn’t make sense or add up. As time has gone by and more information about the case has become available and appeals and re-trials that same feeling remains but now with even more questions. Now it’s not just the mistaken identity theory but why did the state decide to take that path anyway and when did this theory start to take shape?
The whole mistaken identity theory hinges on the fact that Muneer Deeb took an accidental death insurance policy out on Gayle Kelly or should I say that’s how it has come out over the years. Strange thing is Muneer Deeb was arrested for the murders the first time before the police knew about the insurance policy. What does that say? To me it looks like the mistaken identity theory only weakened their case, Why would they do that? What made them decide to make that choice. Muneer Deeb was openly hostile towards Kenneth Franks, made countless statements to this fact to multiple people. By making the case of mistaken identity it only diminishes that Kenneth Franks could have been the target.
Do I believe the wrong people were convicted? I still lean very heavily that the right people were convicted and if that is the case, Muneer Deeb got to walk free. I do have doubts, it was such a weak case and so many loose ends, that still exist to this day and anytime you have this you do have to question the convictions. The only thing is I haven’t seen anything strong enough to undo these convictions. There are many people out there that believe the wrong people were convicted and I guess they have information to support this and I just haven’t seen it. But with what I have seen I would question this as well.
I think some of it is just how we look at things, for instance many people have pushed the theory Terry “Tab” Harper was the person responsible for these murders and I ask why. He was a suspect early on and was released. The only thing that connected him to these murders were some stupid comments he made right after the murders and it came down to when he made those comments. Much was made about when he made these statements and the police spent a considerable amount of time tracking down that fact. What they found was he made those comments no earlier than 8pm the day the bodies were discovered. The people that still see Harper as the most likely suspect always point to the fact that the bodies weren’t discovered until approx. 6:30 and didn’t become public knowledge or make to news until after 9pm that night, which would show Harper knew about the murders before. But the people that push that theory miss one very important possibility one that I would guess the police figured out.
Anyone with a scanner could have heard about the discovery of the bodies as soon as there was talk about it over the police radios, which we know happened, that’s how many officers heard about it. You know my father was a state trooper, we had a scanner in our house, any policeman and fireman would have these scanners as would any number of citizens. That Harper could have had that information by 8p is not surprising nor incriminating. Also my father was a detective with the state police for awhile, he hated it, he went back to just being a patrolman. The reason he told me he hated being a detective so much was because there would be these detectives investigating some crime and when they would get an idea in their head it was like they would get tunnel vision and wouldn’t listen to any other opinions or take into count other evidence. I always have remembered that and that totally looks like what happened in this case. Different officers had different theories and then it became a war of office politics. In the end it only hurt the case and now that there are so many questions the mud slinging starts. I say let’s look at all the evidence all the officers collected. And when you do that I think there is a much more clear comprehensive case, not one without questions but one that’s much better than the prosecution presented. And with that I think they got the right guys.
Sure you have the right but I don’t think there’s anything I can honestly do about that. You do know I am some one that has followed this case for a long time due to the exchanges we’ve had in the past. I take it that’s how you ended up here. You saw the comment I made last week on a post you made months ago, I just saw it last week. If I may you asked, “Didn’t anyone else care about finding the truth, if so get involved ask questions”. You know what my reply was, so here I am. Mrs. Thompson I’m not trying to push things one way or the other, I’m just an outside observer that would like to see the truth in this case whatever it is. The only way I can see this being done is by asking questions on the many aspects of this case that don’t add up but as you know finding the answers isn’t that simple. And you know better and certainly on a much more personal level the disappointments and frustrations with that. From the comments I’ve seen you make in the past it seems there have been many people that have said they have all the answers, they can prove everything and they make promises. Take a look at Mr. Dannen, what he’s down in Mexico, where U.S. authorities can’t get him, are we actually suppose to believe we are going to get the truth from him??? I keep hearing about DNA evidence, not trying to be stupid but what DNA evidence, if you read the police reports and the autopsies there was none found on the bodies. Read Jill’s autopsy, they did the body combing (look for foreign hairs) it clearly states NO FOREIGN HAIRS FOUND. The only things I’ve seen listed that were collected by law enforcement that could possibly contain useful DNA were the 2 beer cans found near the bodies, samples from David Spence’s car and if I remember correctly there were hairs found in the bindings (the strips of towel) that were used to tie the victims hands behind their backs. Mrs. Thompson all that DNA would be inconclusive in determining Anthony Melendez’s guilt or innocence. Just because those things won’t have his DNA in no way does it show that he didn’t take part in this crime. Just because you didn’t drop a hair somewhere doesn’t mean that you weren’t there. Again, I saw you make a comment about Mr. Dannen spending $30,000 for testing. This DNA, that has been around for like 15 years now, has been sent to California and now sits in Arkansas and there always seems to be some unbelievable reason that it just can’t come out. Sorry, but could the truth just be the DNA test haven’t given people the results they want because it can’t??? Mrs. Thompson I can understand if you can’t or don’t want to talk to me but I will still be here asking questions. The truth is out there, I hope we can find it before it’s too late, best wishes.
Mr. Richard Franks told the police that Jill and Raylene picked up Kenneth approx. @ 9:00p.m, was he mistaken on the time? And did that influence the case? I would say there is ample information and evidence that it did. Why did the prosecution push the theory that the murders happened approx. at midnight when there was so much out there that pointed to the murders happening much earlier. Though I do have some doubts about the guilt of those that were eventually convicted, there’s is one thing that sticks out in my mind that shows their involvement. That would be the testimony of Anthony Melendez and in particular one exchange he had with Mr. Feazell.
There has been much made that Melendez changed his story a number of times, had to change his statements to match the facts. Some feel that shows that he’s innocent, he didn’t know the facts and that Feazell and Butler had to feed him the facts. Really should we be surprised that a rapist and murderer didn’t want to tell the whole truth, put as much distance between himself and the horrible acts he had committed by not coming clean with all the details? I would suggest reading his testimony. And isn’t it also a safe conclusion that Mr. Feazell and Mr. Butler in their chosen profession were use to dealing with these kind of people. They got what information they could get, tied up what loose ends they could or felt they needed, Hey Melendez was pleading guilty and admitting to taking part in this brutal and savage crime. I guess there are tapes of Anthony Melendez’s confession and some discussion with the D.A.s and there are some questionable statements on those tapes. Mr. Feazell has defended his actions saying things are being taken out of context. Is he being honest?
Did Mr. Feazell and Mr. Butler realize Mr. Melendez wasn’t going to freely give them all the information they needed and encouraged him into doing so by making misleading statements and if this was the case can you blame them. So what if they told Melendez that he might only do about 10 years if he cooperated? That says something about Melendez, he was looking out for his own interest. He was stupid to believe that, he was admitting to taking part in the murder of 3 teenagers and the rape of 2 teenage girls, really he thought he was only going to do about 10 years for all that? I guess that can be debated. We don’t like how the D.A.s went about getting his confession but to be fair look who they were dealing with. And that’s the same thing with using other inmates testimony to prosecute David Wayne Spence. I agree that was a terrible move, should be banned as it is in some states but Texas allows it, that’s something the state of Texas needs to reconsider. This policy surely gets abused as it did in this case, who do we blame? But let’s forget all the testimony of the jailhouse snitches, what put Anthony Melendez away was his own testimony his own words, so let’s look at those and as I said one exchange, one little piece of information he gave, I would think unintentionally, like a Freudian slip. He wasn’t being totally truthful telling his version of the story then there it was a statement that put it all together.
I’m referring to when Mr. Feazell asked about what time was it when they walked Jill Montgomery into the woods, his response, “it was starting to get dark”!!! I think Mr. Feazell was shocked by that answer, I don’t think he saw that one coming, you can tell by his reply to Melendez’s answer. Mr. Feazell’s next question like came out of left field it had no relevance, again remember the prosecution had been pushing the theory that the crime happened around midnight. Mr. Feazell asks Melendez was it really shady in this area, as if it was going to be any less dark at midnight!!! The time he had theorized it had happened. Even though there was so much that proved otherwise. The only thing I can find that supports that theory is that Mr. Franks told the police that Ken was picked up about 9pm. And no one can say Mr. Feazell or Mr. Butler feed this information to Melendez, they were still working the murders happened around midnight. That it happened earlier was Anthony Melendez’s own admission. And if we take that admission for what it is and put it against other information there is from witnesses and what little evidence there is I propose a clearer picture of what may have happened appears. Let’s look at that timeline.
I think it’s safe to say that Jill and Raylene left Waxahachie to go to Waco around noon Tuesday July 13 and it takes about a hour and a half to get there. We know they went to Fort Fisher where Jill had worked, the lady she worked with told police that Jill and Raylene arrived around 2pm, that fits the timeline. That same lady also gave the police some other information, she told them that Gayle Kelly had also worked there at the same time Jill had and that she also witnessed Gayle, Jill and Muneer Deeb having a heated discussion about Kenneth Franks. That tells us 2 things; Muneer Deeb not only knew Gayle Kelly he also knew Jill Montgomery and he knew that Jill knew Kenneth Franks. She told the police Jill and Raylene didn’t stay long that day, they stated they were hungry and were going to get something to eat.
The next confirmed sighting we get is that Jill and Raylene went to the Piggly Wiggly to cash checks approx. @ 5pm. That leaves a 3 hour gap, I don’t know what they did in those 3 hours, all I would say is a lot can happen in 3 hours. Then we know Mr. Franks states the girls called from El Chino’s and come pick up Kenneth @ 9pm. Again was he right on the time? We need to look at the information and evidence the police obtained in the days after the bodies were found.
The bodies were discovered approx.@ 6:30pm Wednesday July 14, a justice of the peace arrived to the scene and pronounced death giving the estimated time of death between 9pm and Midnight the day before which would have been Tuesday July 13. That matches Mr. Franks statement that the girls picked up Ken around 9pm. The bodies are sent to Dallas for autopsies. In the conclusion of the medical examiner they conclude that death occurred approx. 20 hours before the bodies were discovered, that would put the time at approx. 10:30pm, again that fits. But then there’s the evidence they found that all 3 victims had eating about one hour before they were killed, if we believe Ken was picked up at 9 that would still put things pretty close to that time line. But if the kids were killed around midnight that wouldn’t fit, remember the prosecution’s explanation was the kids could have eaten sometime again after they got together. The autopsy was pretty clear about what they had eaten, Ken had eaten ground beef and french fries, which Mr. Franks confirmed, he had sent Ken to Whataburger earlier, again I would question his timing on things. Jill still had beans and ground beef in her stomach when the autopsy was performed and Raylene had green pepper and pimento remaining. Again this fits what Mr. Franks says, they called from a Mexican restaurant. So did all 3 kids eat the same thing they had eaten earlier later that night? I seriously doubt that. If not how can that fit? That’s when Mr. franks statement on the time becomes a problem but there is plenty of information that he was wrong.
Some of the first people the police talked to after the discovery of the bodies were friends of Kenneth Franks; Patrick Torres, Donnie Culp and Bobby Brem. Torres stated that Kenneth had called him at work @ approx 6pm and said nothing about he (Kenneth) planning to get up with the girls, actually Torres states that Kenneth wanted to get up with him after he got off work but Torres declined. Culp, whom was also at work with Torres confirms the call. That tells us at that time, 6pm. Ken hadn’t talked to the girls by then. Then Brem states Kenneth called him asking for a ride to Koehne Park to meet 2 girls. Brem says this happened approx @ 7;30pm. Brem also had to decline but this tells us that Jill had made contact with Ken by that time, it was between 6pm and 7:30. The statements of these 3 friends really doesn’t tell us much standing alone but when you put it up against what other people said that were in Koehne Park the night of July 13 it starts to add up.
People keep bringing up the name Terry “Tab” Harper like there was all this evidence or information that he was in the park that night and seen with the kids, most of that info was hearsay from sources that had gotten it 2nd hand, 3rd hand, 4th hand, that come to find out came from one source that would later admit he mixed up the day when he had talked to people. That’s suppose to be reliable to any degree? But you never hear those same people mention all the people that were at the park that say they saw the orange Pinto at the park, a few said they saw the kids and they all agree it was well before 9pm. There are so many of these statements in the police reports, I can’t or wouldn’t even try to recount each and every one. I would point out the statement from the Afro-American family that were parked right next to the Pinto. They remember the car, this family was there for a few hours and left around dark approx 9pm, the car was there but they didn’t see the kids at that time. AROUND DARK APPROX 9PM!!! What did Anthony Melendez say, “AROUND DARK”. Not around midnight. Can we condemn a man on one statement he made of coarse not but look at some of his other testimony.
Anthony Melendez testified that he was working (painting) in Bryan Tuesday July 13 and decided to take off early around noon so he could return to Waco and buy drugs. In the course of the day he ran into David Spence, who asked Anthony if he wanted to go see his (Anthony’s) brother Gilbert. At some point they are driving down 15th Street and decide to get beer. Anthony doesn’t state what store they stopped at but look at what we know about this case, what store do you think they went to get beer if they were already on 15th Street? What did Gilbert Melendez say? He testified they went to the Rainbow Drive-In.
Now look at some of the comments Muneer Deeb made to people about the murders. Patty Pick, Willie Tompkins, Lisa Kader, Chrisna and Kebana Reed all made statements to the police in reference to things Deeb had said to them about the murders and I would add at different times and places. He had said that the girls had been in his store the day they were killed. Another time he states that he just missed out on making $20,000 because he had an insurance policy on a girl that was suppose to be with them that day, which we know was Gayle Kelly. Why would Muneer Deeb say that or maybe a better question is why did he think Gayle was going to be with Jill and Raylene. Is it possible that Jill, Raylene, Deeb, Spence and Gayle Kelly and maybe even Christine Juhl all ran into each other that day in the Rainbow Drive In only hours before the murders took place.
Anthony Melendez says they were on 15th Street when they stopped to get beer. He also states he stayed in the car, is that just another one of his attempts to distance himself from what really happened? Did something happen or was there something said in that store that put into motion the tragic events that would unfold later? And in Christine Juhl’s testimony she states that David would come in all the time and put the purchase of beer on her check. Then there was some discrepancy with her time card when the police tried to find out what hours she worked that day. She says she closed that night but could not remember if she worked a split shift or not and she remembered she opened the next morning. Maybe she doesn’t want to remember if she was there working at the store for a reason. Also remember a customer testified that she over heard Deeb and Christine arguing over money that Christine thought Deeb owed David. Anthony Melendez has said what he has to say about what happened, maybe some other people need to speak up, not only Christine but there was definitely something strange going on with Gayle Kelly at the time, being followed, the apartment she was staying in with Patty Deis was broken into and she was somewhat evasive and not totally forthcoming with information when she was questioned by police.
I put this out here just to show there are plenty of questions to go around. In our search for the truth and justice we have to look at all the information that is available, we just can’t look at one or two things that don’t add up and question those, we have to look at and evaluate everything that’s out there.
Yes it is and as you know I follow many cases and I would have to say this one has always stuck out the most, so many questions such uncertainty and the only way we will ever be able to find the truth is to get answers to some of these questions but as you can see the difficulty in that and though this is the new and latest approach, the same obstacles have existed for decades if we are going to unlock the truth we must try all the keys that have been presented to us. Keep the discussion alive,
And having said that I guess since I started this I should continue, even though it seems to be going nowhere and that’s the problem. We can ask all the questions we want but if we can’t get any answers where does that leave us? A few weeks ago I posted the question about Mr. Franks stated timeline and elaborated on that, that was just one question and what I would say was well within the realm of possibilities, remind you if David Spence and the Melendez brothers did not commit these murders some one else did and if we view the investigation suspect, as I think with the theory of mistaken identity it is obvious, what else did the investigators miss? My earlier question; what if Mr. Franks was wrong with his timeline of events, when did the teenagers leave his house? The way I posted that question I didn’t even question if it was by mistake or was it intentional?
Anyone knows that the police always look at the people closest to the victims first but in this case I really don’t see that, some might say there was no reason there was nothing to indicate Mr. Franks was hiding something. Looking over the police reports and other people’s statements I would have to disagree with that, remember the golf coach at the high school, not saying Mr. Franks had any involvement in the murders but he could be hiding something. Yes it could be that he being gay he didn’t want people, the police, digging into his personal life but by even accepting that line of thinking one would have to admit he was dishonest and what effect did that have on the case and how the case unfolded later and if Mr. Franks was willing to lie to protect his lifestyle to what degree was he willing to lie???
Other than Mr. Franks’ stating that the girls came to his house to pick up Kenneth and they left the house around 9 is there any other evidence to support that? I’ve never seen any. What about the other way, that is to say is there anything out there that could or would contradict Mr. Franks’ stated facts? I’ve already gone over the problem with his statement that the teens left at 9 so I’ll try not to trample all over that ground again but what about the simple statement that the girl’s came to the house to pick up Kenneth. On the surface there doesn’t see to be any reason to question that but again when you look at statements of others there are definitely questions.
I would start with the first statement of Bobby Brim when the police first brought him in to question him the day after the bodies were discovered. Bobby tells the police that Kenneth called him roughly between 7 and 7:30 and asked him for a ride to the park to meet 2 girls. That tells me the girls didn’t plan to pick up Kenneth, they planned to meet him at the park, so did they ever go to the house to pick him up? And if not why did Mr. Franks say they did? Was it just a honest mistake maybe he just assumed they came to pick him up, that would help explain why he was off on the timeline he just really didn’t know things. Or did he know something and didn’t want to share it for one reason or the other?
The statement of Bobby Brim cannot stand alone as Mr. Franks’ statement should not. All truths do not hold the same weight nor do all lies. So is there anything that can support either one of these conflicting statements? Again looking at some of the other statements Bobby’s account sounds much more likely. There were many people that came forward and told the police they saw the car and/or the kids. Again there are way too many statements to go into detail on every one. But there was one the police put a lot of value in, I can’t remember the girl’s name but she was in the park that evening and she was there with another guy that wasn’t her husband, that alone gave her statement a sense of truth, why would she risk exposing this illicit affair? Then she was hypnotized and under hypnotism she stated the same things, conclusion she was telling the truth. What did she say? She stated that she saw the orange Pinto with the girl driving many times driving back and forth, she would drive down by the lake and wait a few minutes then drive back up the hill and again wait for a few minutes, she repeated this a few times. The witnesses’ observation was the girl was either looking or waiting for some one. If we dismiss Mr. Franks’ statement it becomes obvious the girls were in the park, long before 9, waiting for Kenneth they never went to the house to pick him up.
If the girls did not pick up Kenneth how did he get out to the park? One of the possibilities won’t surprise many because he’s a favorite target , especially from those whom believe David Spence, Anthony and Gilbert Melendez are innocent, and when you look at everything a stronger case could be made against him more so than against Tab Harper. Of coarse I’m talking about the Reverend Robert Freuh. He was seen at the park by many people that night and at least one if not two stated they saw either a young man or Kenneth Franks in his car. The police questioned Rev. Freuh and he came off as dishonest, his story of when he was at the park did not match up with what they were told by multiple sources. First can we connect Kenneth Franks and Robert Freuh in any way? Actually that’s very easy they lived on the same street, Savannah Court. And when we look at the activities of the Reverend and look at Mr. Franks’ sexual preference can we see there may be something there that both men wanted to keep secret. Remember this was 1982, our sensibilities as a country have changed a lot since then when it comes to nontraditional relationships. And if they wanted to keep secrets I would have to ask how far were they willing to go to keep those secrets quiet? So I ask again was Mr. Franks dishonest and if he was were there other falsehoods in his statements to police officers?
In the police report concerning Mr Franks…..he stated the time the girls picked him up was between 7-8:00. In court, he testified it was around 9:00. He told me personally that he watched the girls waiting for Ken to come out. They were checking their makeup, etc as young girls would do when about to see a boy they “liked”…………I am also familiar with questionable events concerning Rev Robert Frueh. He was seen at the park with Ken Franks in the car with him. It was still daylight at that time. Frueh did live directly behind Mr franks on Savannah Court. ……… very questionable things in my opinion.
You are aware, I am sure, Richard Franks passed away this last year and Robert Freuh was murdered several years ago. From what I have been able to find out, there is reason to believe that both men knew more about the Lake Case than they divulged.
Mrs. Thompson yes I was aware of the passing of both Mr. Franks and Mr. Freuh and yes I think both knew a lot more and that is kind of my point, I feel there are a number of people that know much more than they have told and they need to open up before they are gone and they take their knowledge and secrets with them. I know a lot of people believe in the innocence of Anthony Melendez and they are hearing the truth from him, I may be wrong but I have an extremely hard time with this, he had his chance to talk and he decided to say he took part in this horrendous crime. I personally just can’t get over that, we all have biases and I guess this is mine. Though he is professing his innocence now and has been for some time, that’s not what he was doing during the trials. Should I or anybody be shocked or surprised that a convict as been sitting in jail and maybe has finally realized he’s not getting out anytime soon nor does he deserve to be, so he starts changing his story and cries about how the system screwed him. Did Mr. Feazell mislead him into believing that he(Anthony Melendez) was going to get some sweet deal when it came to sentencing or possibility of parole? Maybe!!! But remember whom were talking about, Anthony Melendez had been involved in other violent crimes, I point to the incident committed against the Korn family in Corpus Cristri in 1979. I would have to ask what was he doing back on the street in 1982 in the first place??? And I would add, yes I’m one of those people whom is opposed to the death penalty and this is what has intrigued me about this case for so long, I know there are many parties out there that are trying to prove that an innocent man was executed and this case is giving them that opportunity and though I’m opposed to the death penalty isn’t it just as appalling that a guilty man walks free because there just wasn’t enough evidence to convict him, we may have that in this case as well with Muneer Deeb and there are parties out there that are pushing for the release of Anthony Melendez. I’m saying we just need to look at everything and maybe look at things that have never been addressed.
Mrs. Thompson I do have one question you may have the answer to, I know Reverend Freuh worked at a Baptist church I can’t remember the name and Mr. Franks was a youth counselor at a church. Do you know which churches both men would have been connected to?
False confessions unfortunately happen all of the time bk and this is what I believe happened to Anthony and Gilbert. It usually happens to young, uneducated suspects that “fit” the crime.
Hello Keek, surely no one could deny that false confessions happen and as I have posted earlier in my opinion the threat of the death penalty only increases though chances. I know many people feel the same as you that the Melendez brothers were/are innocent, actually I think that is the prevailing sentiment with those whom follow this case. You make the point that these false confessions happen to young suspects that are uneducated, a great point and one which I would agree with, but may I ask how are we judging the level of education and in this case in particular. David Spence was a drop out GED at best, I not sure about the Melendez brothers, so it’s easy to say hey those guys were uneducated but what about in terms of the workings of the legal system, all three were repeat offenders before they were charged with this crime and with that I would concede the point that made them easier targets for prosecution but what could be the flip side of that? These same people also know how to work the system to their best advantage, when there are three dead teens and the two girls were sexually assaulted there aren’t too many options to take advantage of. This is my problem in relationship to Anthony Melendez, though I do have some doubts, it’s his own words and actions that condemn him in my mind, read his testimony, it’s one statement after another; rape wasn’t his thing, at one time he tried to protect Jill from David, he told Raylene not to cry he wasn’t going to hurt her, he tries to make it sound like he was almost an innocent bystander.
When he pled guilty we always look at the fact that by doing so he got the death penalty taken off the table, that’s what he gained but people don’t look what other advantages Anthony Melendez gained by taking this path. Once he pleaded guilty he was not under any legal obligation to do anything other than admit his own guilt, he didn’t have to testify against anybody he really didn’t have to testify at all, so by taking the plea he gave him self a chance to tell his side of the story without being contested by anyone, the prosecution didn’t have to present a case against him and of coarse his own defense team wasn’t going to take him task on details. So he was allowed to say rape wasn’t his thing un-opposed, even though he had committed a rape only 3 years earlier, if he didn’t plead guilty and the state did have to present a case against him, his past crimes, especially those similar in nature, would have been brought forward, all that got swept under the rug once he pleaded guilty. And that he was even on the street to commit more crimes tells me one thing, Anthony Melendez knew how to use the legal system to his favor, so was he uneducated?
Of coarse this is all just my opinion and I hope we all are allowed to express our opinions. Keek thank you for posting and keeping the discussion alive, hope to hear from you again.
Of course you are allowed your opinion. We all are 🙂 I find it fascinating that you know so much about this case. You have obviously spent a lot of hours reviewing police report/trial transcripts. My question is this….if you are truly guilty of a crime then why would you need to re-write your confession several times? Could it be that your story isn’t fitting the “scenario” that was presented by investigators? Sorta sounds like that might be the case?
Keek, that’s a fair question and one that has been asked many times, I sincerely hope my answers don’t come off like I’m being snarky. I would ask why would an innocent man plead guilty in a case where there was zero physical evidence against anyone and there weren’t any eyewitnesses, the only evidence against him were his own words. Secondly, criminals lie and if we look at Anthony Melendez in particular can we find anything that may give us any insight into how he would have dealt with law enforcement, again things that wouldn’t be presented in court once he pleaded guilty. Remember Anthony Melendez was a repeat offender, I don’t know the circumstances of all the crimes he committed but information of the burglary, assaults and rape of the teenage daughter of the Korn family is available to us. When the police found out Anthony Melendez was involved they knew he lived with is mother. Two officers went to her house, Anthony’s mother told the police Anthony hadn’t been around nor had she seen him in over a year, the police knew she was lying. What does that tell us? To be generous we can say she was just trying to protect her son but look even if that is the case it’s shows she felt a need to do that, her son’s trouble with the law had been common enough that she thought her best and first reaction was to lie. That was back in 1979 by that time this was the condition Anthony and Gilbert had created. Misleading law enforcement isn’t uncommon for criminals, and Anthony Melendez doing so wouldn’t be the first time his has happened.
Further I would like to point out a fact that people either don’t understand or care to understand. Once Anthony Melendez pleaded guilty neither he nor the state(Vic Feazell) had any legal obligation to give any details of the crime. This is the point I keep trying to make about the difference between justice and the truth. Sure the families or people like us want the truth or all the facts we can get but unfortunately all the questions don’t have to be answered for our judicial system to conclude that justice as been administered, dispensed and served. All Anthony Melendez was required to do was admit his guilt. Any details of the crime that the state decides to bring forward, after the plead of guilt from the defendant, they do so only to meet their own satisfaction. That is my awkward way in saying Vic Feazell didn’t need to get any details right, that he didn’t feel the first confession was true and got a second from Melendez shows us the Vic Feazell went the extra mile. When Melendez agreed to confess all Mr. Feazell had to do was satisfy his own feelings and convictions on the case. I’ll put it like this if a defendant decides to plead guilty and the prosecutor asks for details and the defendant says well I can’t remember the details I was high, stoned, wasted or whatever, it’s the prosecutor’s prerogative if he will accept that. Have you ever seen a case where someone has agreed to plead guilty but the court denied that plea because the defendant did not satisfy the court, it happens but it’s an extreme rarity, usually when this happens it’s because the defendant acts like a total idiot. Mr. Feazell knew the type of individual he was dealing with and gave him a second chance.
I would also point out that Anthony Melendez’s original attorney, not Mr. Reaves whom has been his attorney for the last 18 years and has made an issue of the two confessions, didn’t have a problem with Anthony having to make 2 confessions nor did he believe in Anthony Melendez’s innocence, again he knew who he was was dealing with. The fact that Feazell taped Anthony Melendez’s confession should show us that Mr. Feazell didn’t feel he was doing anything shady and it also tells me that he knew Anthony Melendez might change his story again and wanted to make sure he had a record of Anthony’s confession of that time. I know there’s some question about what’s on those tapes and I know Mr. Dannen played those tapes for the families, Mrs. Thompson would know what’s on those tapes.
Finally I would say David Spence and Muneer Deeb always professed their innocence, that can’t be said about the Melendez brothers. Now people say they have alibis which they apparently had at that time, sorry to be harsh but that holds no judiciary weight for obvious reasons, where were these alibis back in 1982, 1983 and 1984? People even try to point out that the Melendez brothers wouldn’t testify against Muneer Deeb in his re-trial in 92-93 as if they were tired of playing the charade. But we can look at that in a different why, they both had been in prison about 10 years by then, by that point they realized the state wasn’t going to give them any breaks on parole and Vic Feazell wasn’t helping them out in any way, so why should they do anymore. Though I have never been to prison, I don’t think being tagged as snitch bitches is a label you want. I could be wrong I’ll defer to those with better knowledge. I would question if their testimony was desired anyway, remember this was after Deeb had won his appeal on the grounds that he was originally convicted with evidence that was hearsay and should not have been allowed. Anthony Melendez never had said anything about Muneer Deeb when he testified and even if David Spence had told him Muneer Deeb was going to pay him to kill somebody, that is still hearsay, Melendez would have had to hear Muneer make that statement himself and then there are still other conditions that have to be met for that statement to be admissable. One co-conspirator cannot make incriminating declarations against other co-conspirators without corroborating evidence. The Melendez brothers never said nor did the state even try to prove nor did the state have to with the guilty pleas that the Melendez brother’s ever directly talked to Muneer Deeb. After the higher courts upheld Deeb’s appeal, the state surely wasn’t going to try and use more hearsay evidence. And it looks like by taking this stance is when the whole idea the Melendez brothers were innocent started, I could be wrong about this. It just could be a coincidence with time of events. The book Careless Whispers came out in either 86 or 87 and the case gained national attention, then you didn’t hear anything until 1993 which was when the internet was launched and Muneer Deeb had just won his re-trial and the case came to the fore front of the Nation’s debate on the death penalty, the Melendez brother’s saw their chance to change their circumstances.
BKL you sure have a lot of details surrounding this case which is interesting to me. How many years have you been following this case? As far as my opinion goes on the innocence of EVERYONE convicted, it will stay the same for now. I believe that they are all innocent of THIS crime. I do know they were not angels and had committed other crimes but as as far as this case, I believe they are not guilty. I am not going to go into details as to why I believe this. You have very valid questions and I hope you keep asking them!
Keek, for most of the time there was nothing to follow. I read the book during the winter of either 86/87 or 87/88, I guess it depends when it came out, I honestly can’t remember. I read a lot of true crime books back then and it was very popular in that genre at the time, that’s actually how I heard about Careless Whispers. A girl I was hanging out with at the time was in one of those book clubs where they send you a small catalog each month and Careless Whispers was the selection of the month one time. The story was very interesting and it really stuck out in my mind. The overall circumstances surrounding the case were just so intriguing not just the murder itself. All murders have some strange twist to them but this case was so much more. To give you an example and this is something that you never hear about in this case now and that would be the Methodist Home and the Rainbow Drive-In were a central part to this story. The teens at the Methodist Home had a direct pipeline to free drugs with the Rainbow Drive-in and that was right across the street. Didn’t anyone working at the Methodist Home; house parents, counselors or any other staff members have a clue what was going on. And look at all the runaways, Jill had runaway with another girl in January, actually the day she was killed she checked on getting an apartment while she was there she ran into three other boys that had run away from the home. The manager told the police how she knew the boys were runaways because one of her other renters worked at the home and told her. Those three boys would end up stealing a couple cars. Gayle ran away and she stayed right across the street, come on no one saw her. It was like the home didn’t even try to get the kids off the street. Jill’s father brought her back and apparently Gayle turned herself in. You would have to question what they were doing at the Methodist Home and just think if you were a parent that had a child there and think about what Jill’s parents must be thinking. If they had never sent her there she would have never got mixed up with these people. And Jill had wanted to come home for some time, when she ran away back in January she wanted to return home then but her parents didn’t think it was a good idea. Then she was allowed to return home only to return to Waco and get killed days later. And this case is full of these situations, what can you say? So the story stuck with me. But there was nothing to follow at that time David Spence, Muneer Deeb, Anthony and Gilbert Melendez were convicted and in prison. Then in 1993 Muneer Deeb won his freedom and as I posted earlier the internet would be launched that year also and I was just messing around on the internet and came across some articles about his re-trial and of coarse with him winning his appeal there were questions about the others guilt and remember David Spence was still on death row at that point. The overturn of Deeb’s conviction brought the anti-death penalty community out in force and I am opposed to the death penalty so I tried to keep up with what was going on. At that time, and really I guess that hasn’t changed much now, mostly all you could find on the case were articles criticizing the death penalty. In 1986 David Spence’s mother was murdered and it was like the day after or maybe a couple days after she had been contacted by one of the jailhouse informants that had testified against David and he admitted he had lied when he testified against him. You can imagine how that got a lot of people’s attention. The pleas of the convicted being innocent became even stronger, especially for David sitting on death row. He was executed in 1997. 1998 Muneer Deeb died and then in 1999 Gilbert Melendez died in prison. Then the battle over DNA started, this is where things have been stuck up until now.. So I’ve tried to read all I can find on the case since 1993 but a lot of the time from then until now there has been nothing to read and I would say it’s kind of like that now that’s why I started this. The only stuff that you see about the case now is either from people opposing the death penalty, which is fine but their reporting has been very slanted which is not right either. And stories of the on going battle of the DNA keep popping up and that battle has been going on for 15 years. I have serious doubts about the DNA, I must admit reading Autopsies isn’t one of my strengths but having said that I have enough sense to know when the autopsy states Rape Kit- Negative, Hair Comb/Pubic Comb- No Foreign Hairs Found, even I can’t mistake what that means. Anything that could be tested for DNA were samples from David’s car, there were small amounts of blood found in his car, something the supporters of his innocence never mention, so samples from his car were collected and there were hairs found in the bindings used to tie the girls. Mr. Rice said Raylene always carried towels in her car because she went out to the lake (not Lake Waco) she had been out at the lake that weekend and Christine Juhl testified the towels that were used to bound the victims looked liked towels she and David had. Anthony Melendez testified David tied up the bodies when the Melendez brothers went to get the truck. So you shouldn’t expect to find his hairs on the towels or the bindings. that hair won’t be his. None of this evidence will or can it clear or prove innocence or guilt. I ask this question don’t you think if either one of the labs that tested the DNA found anything over the last 15 years that could free an innocent man they would try to get that information out as soon as possible. There hasn’t been any of that, the DNA gets sent to one lab, when that labs fails to come up with results the DNA gets sent to another lab. Sooner or later the fact that whatever DNA there is, is inconclusive. People always talk about the cases where DNA helped free a innocent person but we never hear about the cases where DNA couldn’t help and those cases are much more numerous. And also don’t forget we all talk about we are innocent until proven guilty, Anthony was proven guilty, only because he pleaded guilty but now he has to prove his innocence beyond a reasonable doubt, the state doesn’t have to lift a finger, very difficult to do after you pleaded guilty and testified and the judge warned him of this before he accepted his plea. Keek, I understand your feelings trust me you’re not alone I know you said you didn’t want to get into details and I have to respect that but hopefully you will keep returning, commenting and help keep the conversation alive. Maybe someday you will feel comfortable enough to share some of your own personal feelings, thoughts and opinions in more detail. Thank You again.
Mrs. Thompson, thank you for returning, your first hand knowledge is invaluable, anyone would gain much from your personal insight, so again thank you!!! It was like zero degrees around here this weekend, so it gave me plenty of time to read over the police reports and testimony. There was something in particular I was looking for and you know how you never can find that one thing you are looking for. But I did find a couple things and in keeping with finding the truth, I don’t need to be mixing up the facts and confusing things anymore than they already are, I need to practice what I preach. I was wrong on some of the information that I posted last week, which I found this weekend. First it was reported that Jill Montgomery had gotten the gas card from her grandfather not Raylene Rice, I had that backwards. Also on the statement of the female witness that the police thought was very credible and put her under hypnosis and she told the same story, I stated that she was in the park with a guy that wasn’t her husband, again I had it all mixed up. Her name was Karen Hoskins it doesn’t look as if she was married the gentleman she was with was, they still didn’t want people to know they were together.
Mr. Thompson on the report Mr. Franks made and I will definitely defer anything I find to your knowledge but on one of the very first reports, even before the police realized they had a triple homicide on their hands, when they first arrived to the park in response to Mr. Franks’ call of a abandoned/vandalized car, Nicoletti writes in his report, which is timed and dated 9:12a 7/14/82, he states Mr. Franks said the girls arrived at the house at approx. 9pm. And I am in total agreement with you about the questionable behavior of both Mr. Franks and Rev. Freuh.
None of the things belonging to the girls were ever found .ie-purses, clothing ( except those bindings from towel and Jill’shirt and shoestrings that we do not know who they belonged to) also a bra belongi g to Jill was tied around Rayline’s ankle. BTW……the credit card you spoke of was Jill’s grandfathers as he gave it to her to buy gas for Rayline’s car. And no, it was never used by anyobe other than Jill and was never located.
Mrs. Thompson, again great and such valuable insight. I knew a bra was found around Raylene’s ankle, I didn’t know that it was Jill’s bra. I realized this weekend that I was wrong about whom had the gas card, I apologize. Another great asset you bring is you can keep me in line, thank you!!!
In response to the search IN the lake, I do not recall any details concerning that. I was told that there was a search, but nothing in the way of explanation.
Keek, I hope so also but having followed this case for as long as I have it seems to go in cycles and for a little while it looks like something is going to happen and then the case just seems to disappear. Back in 1993 When Muneer Deeb won his re-trial I really thought that was going to blow up everything and at first it looked like it was going to but nothing happened and of coarse prior to the execution of David Wayne Spence in 1997 there was a lot of interest and again nothing. The same with the murder of David’s mother. That’s why I’m here the only way I see anything ever happening is if we keep an open discussion alive. So thank you for taking the time to comment, any questions, comments, critiques and criticisms are welcome.
I would like to take a little time to explain my interest in this case and my opposition to the death penalty. Yes I would say the whole debate about the death penalty and the appeals in this case are what have kept me following this case. Here’s my feelings on the death penalty, sure I”m opposed to the death penalty for the obvious two reasons people give; what if you convict the wrong person and two wrongs don’t make a right, sitting in judgement to kill someone is no different than if you were out on the street and killed them, in the end you are doing the same thing to the person you’re trying to convict. But here’s something I’ve never seen discussed before, we all talk about getting justice, we all want justice but unfortunately in the world today trials are more about winning and losing, reputations, personal gain, book deals, movie deals and with that justice is thrown out the window. In that atmosphere the death penalty just becomes a bargaining chip in that contest, a bargaining chip that only becomes an obstacle to the truth. That’s what this case exhibits more than any case I can think of, if we removed the threat of the death penalty what would have changed? All the evidence would have been the same, there still would have been a lack of eyewitnesses and physical evidence. And what are we left with still more than 30 years after the crime, questions, uncertainty and what about the truth???
If we are losing justice in this exchange we must preserve the truth. Everybody’s life is a story, unfortunately for those that are taken from us prematurely their story is over but it’s a story that becomes open to the public and public scrutiny. Many things that would have been kept private and secret in life are brought out for the whole world to see. We end up knowing as much if not more about these people in death than many people that knew them in life. In their honor and memory shouldn’t we make sure the story that unfolds is the truth.
One thing that intrigues me about this case, totally mind boggling, is that it seems no one tried to nail down a concrete or solid timeline. Other than Detective Salinas trying to track down when Tab Harper made his statements, which blew up in his face, there doesn’t seem to be any effort made towards making a comprehensive timeline and I’m talking about they let things go if they could narrow it down to about a month, surely a timeline would have been vitally important to all parties involved. Though there are many examples of this for the moment I’m going to concentrate on Gayle Kelly. Of coarse she was the pivotal character in this tragedy, she was the cause of the friction between Kenneth Franks and Muneer Deeb, it was she that the $20,000 accidental death insurance was taken out on and she is the embodiment of the mistaken identity theory. Such an important figure but where was Gayle Kelly on Tuesday July 13,1982???
I’ll summarize her testimony. Gayle Kelly arrived at the Methodist Home when she was 15, in the fall of 1981 she started working at Fort Fisher (she and Jill Montgomery would work there together for some period of time). Ms. Kelly states that she met Muneer Deeb sometime in the spring of 1982, in the summer of ’82 she would run away from the Methodist Home and quit work at Fort Fisher. She called Deeb to ask him for a ride to the bus station because she wanted to go to Grand Prairie. Mr. Deeb told her he would take her to Grand Prairie because he was going to Dallas to see his brother. He gives Gayle the ride and when they get to Grand Prairie he tells her when she wants to return to call him and he would bring her back to Waco. He does give Gayle the ride back to Waco and somewhere along the line they decide Gayle will come to work for Mr. Deeb. We don’t have when nor how long Gayle was in Grand Prairie. Muneer Deeb takes an accidental death insurance policy out on Gayle Kelly. Gayle states that she thought it was a worker’s comp policy in case she got hurt at work and she wasn’t aware Deeb was the beneficiary.
She tells us that she stayed with Patty Deis at the Northwood apartments, apartment number 218, her first night back from Grand Prairie. The next two nights she stays at an apartment Muneer Deeb had gotten for her, which was also at the Northwood apartments, number 144. On her third day there Gayle and Deeb get into an argument when he finds Gayle and Kenneth together at the apartment. Gayle moves out and returns to stay with Patty Deis. With the fallen out with Muneer Deeb, the job offer also evaporates. Ms. Kelly gets a job at IHOP working the night shift 11p-7a. At first Gayle says she stayed with Patty for two months, she then thinks about it and says it was only a month and a half. During her time at Patty’s the apartment was broken into twice, Gayle wasn’t sure of the dates. After that time she returned to the Methodist Home.
D.A. Feazell asks her when she returned to the home and she says it was shortly before the 4th of July, then he asks why she returned and she states that Kenneth Franks had talked her into returning to avoid anymore trouble than she was already in. So she turned herself in, her punishment, she was placed on restriction for two weeks, which entailed not being allowed off the premises of the home. Asked if she saw Kenneth after she returned, Gayle replied she saw Kenneth once, she didn’t know the date but she knew it was a Monday and she thought it was about a week before he was killed. Mr. Feazell asked her if she was on restriction how was she able to see Kenneth, She explained that Kenneth had tried to come and see her but the guards would not let him in because he didn’t have a pass and Gayle was standing there outside and Kenneth yelled to her for her to call him because he needed to talk to her, I don’t know if that call ever took place.
Gayle Kelly goes on to say that she left the home for the final time about a couple weeks later, this was the one time she was able to recall the date, she said the last day she was at the home was July 23, she was sure about the date because it was 3 days before her birthday and she would be legal, plenty of questions about this later!!! When she left the home she returned to Patty’s. Mr. Feazell asked if she ever saw David Spence after July 13 and she states she had one encounter with David after July 13, again she didn’t know the date but it was an important encounter as things played out.
This is the gist of Gayle Kelly’s testimony and as you can see not much in the way of dates. It was an interesting story maybe even a little touching, two troubled teens that care so much for each other, the guy convinces the girl to turn herself in to avoid more trouble and while she’s locked up he gets killed and they never get to see each other ever again. Hollywood couldn’t come up with a more gut wrenching ending. But was it true???
Though Gayle didn’t give many dates there were reports and records that could help shed a little light on when things happened. Mr. Feazell realized this and I must give him credit he tried to refresh her memory to no avail but he didn’t want to push to hard nor break down his witness that was the defense’s job. He did all that you could reasonably expect any attorney to do. He knew her testimony didn’t match up with what was on record and he attempted to get her to correct it to no avail. Gayle had said she returned to the Methodist Home right before the 4th of July, he showed her the insurance policy which she had signed and dated, the date being June 22, He then asked her if this helped her remember when she returned to the home but she stood by her previous testimony; she returned shortly before July 4th. Now lets take a look at the reports and records that are available to us.
Gayle Kelly holds many secrets to the truth about this case. In my opinion, if she would tell someone the truth, many of these questions could be answered. She, like many of the other “young” witnesses, were fed information that would place them in the “limelight” for a period of time. Please understand, this is my opinion! I saw many behind the scene activities during all four trials that gave me cause to wonder about the people we once considered “our heroes” !
Gayle Kelly is not the only one, I would put Christine Juhl in the same boat. I’m not sure if anyone was fed any information and that’s just my opinion. And I think the trial testimony shows that, yes there was plenty of inaccurate testimony but it looks like Vic Feazell tried to get his witnesses to get it straight but he wasn’t going to totally discredit his own witnesses, no lawyer would have done that, though it sounds cold that is what the other side is there to do. And on your comment about being in the limelight, to me it seems Gayle Kelly and Kebana Reed didn’t need any coaching sure they sucked up the attention, they were both full of their selves and so self adsorbed, at times I wondered did they really ever understand the gravity of the situation.
I know your knowledge about what happened at the trials, in court and out, is unmatched and boundless, that’s why I’m glad you are here. I know you have so much information, things I or most of us that follow this case could not even think about asking and it’s that insight that is so valuable into finding the truth. I can read what everybody can read, we don’t have the insight of the behind the scene dealings and we can’t have any understanding of this but it would be nice to be able to hear it so we could have some understanding. What are we missing???
And in the case of Gayle Kelly and your feelings about her in relationship to this case. In my view, again with the little information I can get, if you believe Gayle Kelly holds many secrets, which I agree with, doesn’t that belief only re-enforce that the right people were convicted. The connection Gayle Kelly presents only brings those convicted closer to the victims. That’s the problem with the mistaken identity theory the prosecution put forward, in most cases you’re trying to make connections, I’m sure you have heard somewhere along the line it’s like trying to put a puzzle together or connect the dots, but in this case they weren’t trying to connect the dots or make connections to those involved one way or the other, they were doing the exact opposite they were trying to down play any connection between the principle players in this case. Come on Gayle Kelly only saw David Spence at the store twice and at the park only twice and they never spoke to each other? Jill and Deeb knew each other to some degree, the easy connection was the Methodist Home to the Rainbow Drive-in, and since they knew each other and the store would be the logical connection then couldn’t Jill have also met David Spence? I would say it’s probable. The state was never going to try to make that connection, it would just be another contradiction to their theory. Trying to pass off that David Spence didn’t know Gayle Kelly was going to be difficult enough to prove the mistaken identity motive. What if he knew both girls? Making these connections only strengthen the case against those that were convicted, it won’t help prove the innocence of anyone. I could be wrong about all this, it’s just my opinion. Mrs. Thompson what am I missing???
Mrs. Thompson I mentioned Christine Juhl earlier and that she may know more also. Actually that was what I was trying to find this weekend and couldn’t find. Knowing you were there at the trial maybe you could help me find the answer. I remember during her testimony there was some question when she actually worked July 13. She stated she closed at 11p and Deeb gave her a ride home but she couldn’t recall if she worked a split shift that day or worked a straight shift. If I’m not mistaken Mr. Reaves or Mr. Vance asked couldn’t they get that information from her time card to which Christine replied they could but when they tried to check the time cards there was some kind of problem, I can’t remember exactly what happened or if they ever resolved this issue. Do you have any insight on this matter?
If Gayle Kelly did return to the home right before July 4th and she had stayed with Patty for roughly a month and a half, six weeks, that would put the date that she started to stay with Patty sometime in May, which was impossible. Per the police reports they went to the Northwood apartments and talked to the property manager, Patty started renting the apartment on June the 2nd, Muneer Deeb started renting his apartment June 1 and paid for two months. Some may argue that if she started staying with Patty as soon as Patty rented the apartment on June 2 and that would only put Gayle’s testimony off by maybe two weeks at the most. But there is more evidence that show that wasn’t the case, remember the insurance policy.
Gayle Kelly signed that policy on June 22 and she tells us she thought it was a worker’s comp. policy in case she got hurt at work, we know after she and Deeb got into the argument about she being with Kenneth at the apartment she wasn’t going to work for Deeb, so if she thought she was signing a workers comp policy that clearly shows that at that time she was still planning to work there, again that was June 22, the argument with Deeb couldn’t have happened before then. It could have happened that night but what does that tell us. If June 22 is the earliest they Gayle and Deeb fell out and she had stayed at the apartment he had paid for for two nights that would put the Date June 20 as the first night she returned to Waco and stayed with Patty and June 22 as the night she returned to Patty’s and stayed about a month and a half, which would put the time she returned to the home about August. Again the evidence shows that’s not the case either.
What about those two break-ins at Patty’s apartment, Gayle couldn’t recall the dates but the police had reports on both incidents. I guess at this point I need to look at the progress of the investigation to the point of the break-ins and in particular references to Gayle Kelly. Her name come up constantly in the investigation and the police really wanted to talk to her. As early as the morning of July 14th, when the case was still a missing person case, the police advised Mr. Franks maybe the kids were with friends maybe he should call some of Kenneth’s friends, we know he called two; Patrick Torres, whom would actually come out to the park to talk to police and they arranged that Patrick would get up with other friends of Kenneth and bring them to the police station to talk, which he does the next day at 2pm. He brings in Bobby Brem and Donnie Culp. When they are asked about other friends of Kenneth all three boys mention Gayle Kelly. She was the other friend Mr. Franks called the morning of July 14. It doesn’t say where he called her, she would later give the details of that conversation but she never says where she was when he called.
On the morning of July 15, officer Potterfield goes to the Methodist Home to get background information on Jill Montgomery, he talks to Mary Bellheimer, whom was Jill’s as well as Kenneth’s counselor. She gives him the rundown and states that Kenneth also dated a girl by the name of Gayle Kelly who was also at the Methodist Home. The question I have is if the pokice already wanted to talk to her and she was there why not talk to her then? Or was she still a run away at that time? Mr. Bellheimer doesn’t make that clear nor does it seem the police realize she is a run away as following events will demonstrate. I would add one other thing that disturbs me that I can’t find in the reports. The Officers asked the three boys about friends of Kenneth but don’t you think the obvious question they would have asked would have been about any enemies Ken might have had, I can’t find it in the reports for those interviews on July 15. When Sgt. Baier and Sgt. Simons re-interviewed Bobby Brem on September 10 they asked him and Bobby told them Muneer Deeb.
On July 19, Lisa Kader, another girl that is staying at the Methodist Home and stays in the same unit as Gayle Kelly; the Perkins Unit, comes to the police station with her Unit parent and states she may have some info on the murders. She really doesn’t have any hard facts, she tells them she thinks Muner Deeb killed the three teens and the reason being he hated Kenneth Franks the mere mention of Kenneth set off Muneer he would become very irate and the reason for this, Muneer Deeb and Kenneth Franks had gotten into it over Gayle Kelly. Lisa goes on to say she thinks the police should talk to Gayle she(Lisa) thinks Gayle may know something but isn’t talking because she was so close to Kenneth. Again the police wanted to talk to her if Gayle was at the Methodist Home why not just go over there and talk to her, The police were looking for her, it’s not in the reports but the events of the next day shows they were looking for her.
On July 20, detective Nicoletti and Texas Ranger Joe Wiley try to track down Patty Deis, they have found out where she works, which is the Army recruiting station. They go there and Patty’s supervisor Sgt. Flores tells them that Patty didn’t show up to work that day and actually that was the second day since the murders that she had missed, the first being July 15 the day after the bodies were discovered. Sgt. Flores give the officers Patty’s address. When Nicoletti and Wiley arrive at Patty’s apartment they see that some one has broken into the apartment, someone had busted out the living room window and there’s enough blood left there that it has dripped down to the sidewalk in front of the apartments below. Nicoletti calls the police station to report the break-in, he talks to Sgt. Fortune. Sgt. Fortune informs Nicoletti that Patty Deis is at the police station at that moment reporting the break-in and Gayle Kelly is with her. There are any number of police officers that want to talk to Gayle Kelly at this point.
It looks like Sgt. Holstien gets the first crack at her. One strange thing that sticks out about this interview, with most of the interviews, the officers note the DOB of the person they are interviewing, this wasn’t the case with Gayle Kelly or Patty Deis, Patty states she is 17, Gayle lies and says she is 18, Did Holstien decide not to ask for her DOB because she realized she was lying anyway. Or at that point did the police still not realize she was a run away, it would look that way , after the interview she is allowed to leave with Patty. For the record Gayle was 16 at the time. In her interview Gayle never mentions the Methodist Home nor anything about Muneer Deeb, she never mentions his name. Was Gayle being evasive because she just really didn’t want to talk about it or think about it or just wanted to keep the Methodist Home off the radar not to expose she was a run away or is there more to it???
The next time we see the police talking to Gayle Kelly is July 23, the day she would later testify was her last day at the Methodist Home and actually the date of the second break-in at Patty’s. Gayle testified she was still at Patty’s when the second break-in happened but from reports we Know Nicoletti goes to talk to her at 9am at the Methodist home. Gayle tells him while she was running around town on July 21, the day after the first break-in she was followed by three black men in a blue car, she calls Patty to tell her this and Patty replies she had been followed by a blue car also. We don’t know anything about whom this might have been but it does show that Gayle Kelly was still not at the Methodist Home on restriction at that date.
Nicoletti remembers hearing about a blue Duster out at the park the night the teens went missing, so he calls Detective Salinas and gives him this information. Salinas decides to go talk to Patty Deis, he goes to her place of employment only to find Patty took off early that day about lunch time, she told her boss that she had an appointment at the police station. Det. Salinas said he could never find that any of the officers had made an appointment to talk to Patty Deis that day. Patty would call Salinas and tell him about the second break-in. Salinas concluded Patty made an excuse to take off then when she got off and went home she found her apartment had been broken into a second time. Was Salinas wrong on this. I think the testimony of Gayle Kelly proves he was. Gayle Kelly says she was still staying with Patty during the second break-in, remember she was working nights at the IHOP. She testified that when she got home that morning she noticed the house had been broken into. Could it be Patty went to work knowing her apartment had being broken into again and decided to take off to go deal with it and it was just her wording, “an appointment” instead of an unplanned interview with the police again. And this was the day Gayle Kelly said was her last day at the Methodist Home, was it her last or her first day back? I would say it was her first day back, we know Nicoletti went to the Methodist Home to talk to her at 9am.
Did Gayle Kelly finally realize sometime wasn’t right and decide to hide away somewhere and returned to the Methodist house. We know she didn’t stay long either way on July 28 the police interview her again and at this time she is back at Patty’s. Two break-ins, the feeling she was being followed, was there anything else that may have opened her eyes?
What about that encounter she had with David Spence and she couldn’t date other than to say it was after the murders? When did it happen. I need to back track a little I need to share some of the details of the first break-in before I get to what David Spence said. During the break-in of July 20, the perpetrators ransacked the apartment all except the kitchen were they had left all the knives lined up on the counter with a note that said something to the effect,” We missed you this time but we will get you next time”. But Gyle and Patty thought that it was meant for Patty. It was her apartment and Gayle stated she hadn’t been there long a day or two when it happened. Now the run in with David Spence; Patty and Gayle go to the 7-11, Gayle goes into the store, Patty stays in the car. As Gayle exits the store she sees David Spence standing outside the car and over hears him saying something like,” Won’t it be nice to live to be 18″. Again she thinks David is directing the comment to Patty. But he turns around and faces Gayle and says” Here’s the bitch we’ve been looking for”. I forgot to mention Gilbert Melendez was there also. That second comment was definitely directed towards Gayle Kelly and she stated as much. But what about that first comment?
I need to take a break I will be back later tonight.
I’m going to try and wrap up my line of questions on Gayle Kelly. When I stopped last night I was questioning the run in Gayle Kelly had with David Spence, an incident where Gilbert Melendez was also present. Of coarse we don’t have a date only that it was after the murders but I think the exchange can help us with that and it would also go towards showing Gayle and David knew each other a lot better than we have been led to believe.
Gayle testified that when she was walking out of the store David was standing outside Patty’s car and she overheard him say, “Wouldn’t it be nice to live to see/be 18?”. Gayle states that she thought he was directing that towards Patty because she(Gayle) was just walking out of the store. Then David would turn to Gayle and said,”Here’s the bitch we’ve been looking for”. That was definitely directed towards Gayle. But what about that first statement about being or making it to 18.
Remember earlier I posted the statement Gayle made about her getting ready to be legal and I had questions about that. In her testimony she explains when she turned 17 she would be able to leave the home on her own accord. And with her testimony that July 23 was three days before her birthday we know the July 26 would have been her birthday. Now I don’t know what the laws are in Texas about when someone is considered to be legally an adult. When I saw she was making those statements about getting ready to become legal I always assumed she meant she was getting ready to turn 18 and I would wonder if she told other people she was getting ready to become legal they also took it to mean she was getting ready to turn 18. If that is the case did David Spence also believe that, that Gayle was getting ready to turn 18? And if so did he also know that her birthday was on July 26? And could that also show that he was making that comment about living to be 18 to Gayle, he was aware of her birthday but he thought she was getting ready to turn 18. And if he knew her birthday and made this comment we can place this event before July 26. From police reports we know Gayle was with Patty July 20 and 21, back at the home in the morning of July 23 and back at Patty’s on the July 28. But Gayle states she was staying at Patty’s when her apartment was broken into the second time which was the July 23. What time did that break in happen? I would put the theory out there that it happened during the early A.M. hours of the July 23 and Detective Salinas was wrong in his assumption that it happened later in the morning.
Patty Deis was very scared after the first break-in, she and Gayle both though she was the target of the break-in, Gayle Kelly was working the night shift at IHOP. If Patty was so scared would she want to stay in that apartment alone? I would think not. Gayle stayed there during the daytime. I think they noticed the second break-in when Patty brought Gayle home that morning, July 23 and I would hypothesize that by this time recent events had made Gayle Kelly realize she was the target and decided to go in hiding and returned to the Methodist Home.
My theory on the timeline of these dates July 20 until the early morning of July 23:
A.M. hours of July 20 the first break-in happens at Patty’s, Gayle is staying with Patty at this time. Both girls think Patty was the target of the break-in.
July 21, both girls are followed my black males in blue car.
Either July 21 or July 22 Gayle has her run in with David Spence. The comments he makes are directed towards her. He knows her birthday is coming up soon. She doesn’t think much of his statements, she knows David can be mouthy at times especially when he’s around his biker type friends.
When she returns home from work on the morning of July 23 and sees the apartment was broken into again, she decides to return to the Methodist house to be safe.
That still leaves us plenty of questions if this was the case, why didn’t she tell the police when they talked to her on July 28? Why didn’t she say anything about Muneer Deeb when the police talked to her for the first time July 20? She knew there was serious friction between Kenneth and Deeb? This doesn’t gives us any concrete answers, it only shows that she was hiding something. None of which help us answer my original question; where was Gayle Kelly on Tuesday July 13,1982.
One other little piece of information that may help in finding the truth. The police interviewed many people that said they saw Jill, Raylene and Kenneth at the park. One of these eye witnesses was John Henderson, they had gotten John’s name from one of his friends. When the police talked to John he told them yes he had been at the park and he saw Kenneth Franks but it was not on Tuesday July 13 it was Monday July 12. John told the police he saw Kenneth get into a car with two girls. He described the car as a bright colored car like a Trans Am or Z 28. I think it’s safe to say he was talking about Patty Deis’ peach colored T-bird and the two girls John had seen Kenneth with were Patty and Gayle Kelly. Gayle’s testimony on when was the last time she saw Kenneth Franks she states; It was on a Monday she couldn’t remember the date she thought it was about a week before his death. I think it was a Monday but it was the night before he was killed. Gayle Kelly didn’t return to the Methodist Home around July 4 and left on July 23, she returned on the 23rd and stayed a couple days!!!
The Methodist Home would have had records back then in the 80’s showing when Gayle Kelly ran away and came back but I doubt if they have kept those records 34 years later. The state didn’t want to prove she was not at the Methodist Home the night of the murders, her story and their theory sound more plausible if she is out of the picture, David Spence mistakenly took Jill for Gayle because he really didn’t know Gayle and hadn’t seen her for at least a couple weeks because she was back at the Methodist Home on restriction and couldn’t leave the premises not even to go across the street to the Rainbow Drive-in, the only place Gayle and David saw each other.
I had asked the question about “why are you not having Christine Juhl testify at the first trial?” The lead investigator replied, “we would like to, but we can’t trust her. She is “squirrely” and we never know what she will say.” So, in my opinion, she wasn’t well known for being truthful ! To me, that says “we can’t take a chance she will ruin our case”.
On the other subject of Gayle being believable——-one thing stands out to me. If David didn’t know Gayle very well, how did he know she would be 18 her birthday??? Or was that question from David a figment of Gayle’s imagination? If the “mistaken identity theory” is from someone’s tunnel vision, I consider the entire scenario could very well fit into that same category.
Mrs. Thompson the idea of David knowing Gayle’s birthday was my conclusion, Gayle never said that, her testimony was that she thought David was making that statement towards Patty. And actually in her statement to Truman Simons on September 12, 1982, she doesn’t say she was there nor that it was David that made the statement, it was just one of the bikers in David’s gang. The reason I was making that conclusion was to make the point that they did know each other well enough that he knew her birthday but not her age, she was turning 17 not 18, remind you I don’t and never did believe in the mistaken identity theory I believe David and Gayle knew each other a lot better than we have been led to believe. Gayle Kelly was dishonest but was her statements to Sgt Simons on Sept 12,1982 or her testimony on May 22,184 closer to the truth, we can only speculate on that. All I know is when the police talked to her on July 20, 1982, July 23, 1982 and July 28, 1982 she lied about her age, she never mentions Muneer Deeb nor David Spence, which I find very strange. And that none of the officers asked her about Deeb at that time even though at least two people had said they thought he might have had something to do with the murders. Lisa Kader straight out said she thought Deeb killed Kenneth because of Gayle Kelly on July 19, 1982. The very next day Patty Deis comes in the police station with Gayle Kelly to report the first break-in and she mentions that she thinks Muneer Deeb had something to do with the murders, it doesn’t look like she tells them it has anything to do with Gayle Kelly but don’t you think the police would have put the two together. One girl says it’s because of Gayle Kelly the other girl mentions the same suspect(Muneer Deeb) and Gayle Kelly was staying with her. That’s what I’m talking about by connecting the dots, it just looks like the police weren’t doing that. Gayle Kelly was right there in the police station and she was talked to by a couple of officers but this information they had just obtained didn’t come up!!!
Mrs. Thompson may I ask you was it Det. Salinas that made that statement. As I know you must be fully aware Christine testified at Deeb’s re-trial and it was the impeachment of her testimony by the defense that crushed the states case and allowed Muneer Deeb to walk. I think Christine may have known more and I don’t like cop bashing but if Salinas made this statement about Christine Juhl it only goes to show his ignorance and lack of understanding and he was the lead investigator, no wonder things got so messed up. Even though David Spence abused the hell out of Christine Juhl and she got out of that relationship she still had feelings and cared about him, it was obvious anyone could see that. Anytime Christine came back to Waco she would go to the jail and visit David. We may not understand that and we might not be able to defend that but it is what it is, going out and spouting off stupid comments about it doesn’t do anybody any good. Yes Christine would have been considered an unreliable witness because of this, no one could be sure if she would try to protect David. If Detective Salinas was so worried about doing any damage to this case maybe he should have worked on his sloppy terrible paperwork and reports. This may have played a part in the impeachment of Christine Juhl’s testimony.
Mrs. Thompson I know you went to all the trials, I’m not sure if you can remember all the testimony or if you would even want to. But can you remember during Deeb’s re-trial the exchange between Christine and the defense attorney about the 8 page statement she made to Salinas and Baier back in 1983, about 10 years before the re-trial. Christine tried to say the report was inaccurate, the defense attorney asked her if she was saying that those two officers were corrupt and she stated that’s not what she was trying to say. The defense attorney would go on then at one point ask her if the officers were nice to her and she would say no they were rude. The exchange between Christine and the lawyer became so headed that the judge decided to call a recess.
Christine had signed that statement, in doing so she was confirming the validity of the statements of facts therein. At the time she was 18 and we can say and understand that hey as a teenager she didn’t focus on the details within that report and just signed it but that doesn’t fly in the court of law that’s why it’s of the up most importance that any officer of the law maintains a high degree of professionalism. When a officers makes off handed statements about a potential witness it only harms all parties. And Salinas had a history of typing up terrible reports, just look at some of his reports on this case, they should be clear and precise the facts he’s trying to provide should be obvious and without question, some parts of his reports are so incomprehensible you don’t know what he’s saying. All I can say is that’s inexcusable and appalling!!!
It was not Ramon Salinas who made that statement to me. As you know, The case was suspended after only a few months. It was activated later with Truman Simons as the lead investigator. That is when Muneer Deeb came into the picture. I do know that Salinas and Simons did not agree on many aspects of the case. It was about this time that the mistaken identity began to immerge. That entire scenerio was originated by Truman Simons.
Mrs. Thompson yes I realize Simons was the one that created the mistaken identity theory. Did he ever give you any reason or insight to why or what led him to this???
Mrs. Thompson has my mind running a mile a minute right now, that might not have come out right! Anyway I would like to review the investigation Truman Simons and Dennis Baier conducted after the case was suspended which in effect removed Detective Salinas as the lead detective on the case. Detective Ramon Salinas has been very critical and one of the most outspoken against this investigation, we can see this may have more to do with conflicting personalities and office politics. Again I want to say I’m not trying to engage in cop bashing, I’m just trying to follow the facts where they take us.
At the end of August 1982, either the 30th or 31st, there was a meeting held by all the officers working on this case, during this meeting it was concluded that they weren’t getting any new leads, a report that summarized the status of the investigation to that point was created. Considering the contents of that report Chief Scott put the status of the investigation as suspended, the officers that were spending the majority of their time on that case were told to move on to other cases. Sgt. Simons whom wasn’t really working the case in a professional capacity at that point, he was a Sargent of patrol, had taken a interest in the case. He was one of the first officers to arrive at the scene when the bodies were discovered and it had an effect on him. Trying to keep up with the case he would go over the other detectives reports, something some of those same detectives didn’t like, it was like he was always hanging over their shoulders. Sgt. Simons had a reputation of being somewhat of a cowboy, liked to do things his own way, another thing some officers didn’t like. Simons went to Chief Scott, which was in essence going over the head of the lead investigator Detective Salinas and his supervisor Lt. Horton, and asked if he could work the case. Simons pointed out the fact that the detectives that had been working that case hadn’t followed up some leads, they didn’t need any new leads they just needed to do some follow up on leads that hadn’t been addressed. Chief Scott granted Simons his request but knowing how that was going to ruffle some feathers and the reputation Simons had the chief decided to pair him up with another officer to keep things in check, that officer would be Dennis Baier. They took the case over on Friday September 10, 1982.
These are a few of the things Simons and Baier found when they reviewed the case at that point or when the case was suspended roughly on September 3. It was this time period July 14,1982 until September 3, 1982 that Det. Salinas was the lead investigator. First as early as July 15, officers talked to close friends of Kenneth Franks, that would have been Pat Torres, Bobby Brem and Donnie Culp but there was nothing in the reports that any of these boys were asked the obvious question, did they know anyone that Kenneth may had been having a problem with. Then they noticed the name Muneer Deeb came up many times as a possible suspect by multiple sources but from July 14 through September 3, not one officer had interviewed or questioned Deeb. And even though Deeb’s name came up in to relationship with a Gayle Kelly and officers had talked to her on 3 occasions they never asked her about Deeb. Though it looked like Det. Salinas had a good lead in the suspect Terry “Tab’ Harper, Salinas had brought him in about a week after the murders and released him because suspect had alibi that was confirmed, he(Salinas) was still spending a considerable amount of time tracking down stories about Harper in August. If Salinas confirmed Harper’s alibi in July wouldn’t it have made more sense to follow up some of the other leads after that? You can see why Salinas wouldn’t me happy about how things were going.
Simons and Baiers plan, well by luck both officers knew a couple people they wanted to talk to, Baiers knew Bobby Brem and Simons knew Muneer Deeb. They decided to talk to Brem first, the first question they asked him is was he aware if any enemies Kenneth Franks might have had, his answer? Muneer Deeb. Later that night they decide to go to the Skaggs Supermarket, Simons knew Deeb would do his shopping late at night there sometimes. He had seen Deeb there shopping with another girl. Simons and Baier got to the store about 1am, which would have been Saturday September 11,1982. While they were waiting the two officers talked to two employees of Skaggs, Willie Tompkins the security guard and cashier Patty Picks and they had a very interesting story to tell about Muneer Deeb.
Patty told them the reason Deeb came in was because he was obsessed with a girl by the name of Kebana Reed. Kebana’s sister Chrisna also worked at Skaggs. One time Deeb asked Patty if she would steal Chrisna’s key to her apartment so he could make a copy. Both Willie and Patty told Simons and Baier that Deeb had made statements about Kenneth Franks, how he(Deeb) hated Franks and was glad he was dead. Simons realized the girl he had seen Deeb shopping with must have been Kebana Reed but he asks were there any other girls that Deeb would bring in and he was told about a girl named Dana Diamond. After Simons and Baier obtained this information they decided maybe they needed to look into Deeb before they talked to him.
Saturday morning September 11, Simons and Baier return to Skaggs to talk to Chrisna after talking to her the officers decide to interview both sisters. The sisters explain how Deeb was stalking (that’s my description) Kebana, he would sit out in the parking lot of their apartment all hours of the night, would show up to her work. Deeb had asked Kebana to marry him, he had bought her an engagement ring, He helped her with her bills and bought her stuff. He had also made comments about Kenneth and the murders. Hearing this Simons and Baier remembered another girl Deeb seemed to have some strange connection with, Gayle Kelly.
Sunday September 12, 1982, finally some one asks Gayle Kelly about Muneer Deeb, almost two full months after the murders, even though the police had information only days after the murder that Gayle may have been the reason Deeb killed Franks. Gayle runs down the problems between Kenneth and Deeb. Deeb has also asked her to marry him for one month for $500. She tells them about the break-in and how she had been followed and harassed. But things had changed since that time back in July, actually she and Deeb had made up and were friends again. he would spend nights at the apartment with Gayle and Patty and since he had started staying the break-ins and harassment had stopped. Gayle and Patty were planning to go out with Deeb that night. The officers asked Gayle not to say anything to Deeb about them asking her questions about him. Apparently that request fell on deaf ears because about 1am, Monday 13, 1982 they get a call from a hysterical Gayle, she tells them that Muneer Deeb admitted to her that he killed Kenneth and the girls.
Concluding Gayle Kelly must have said something to Muneer Deeb, the officers are afraid he might take off. Later that same Monday September 13, 1982 Simons and Baier present what they have uncovered during their 3/4 day investigation to Chief Scott, the captain, the police departments legal adviser and an assistant D.A, to see if they have enough to get a warrant on Muneer Deeb. They are advised by the legal counsel that they have enough probable cause to obtain a warrant. From there they go in front of a justice of the peace and get their warrant. Approximately at 11:30pm Monday September 13,1982 they arrest Muneer Deeb.
The following day Tuesday 14, 1982 Simons and Baier finally make contact with Dana Diamond. She relates the familiar story, Deeb had helped her out, gave her money, asked her to marry him for $500. They ask her if Deeb ever said anything about Kenneth Franks or the murders at the lake. She informs them; yes he had he had told her the two girls that were killed were in his store the day they were killed and that he also said that he just missed out on making $20,000 because he had an insurance policy on a girl that was suppose to be with them. Dana didn’t know whom the girl was nor the insurance company that Deeb had the policy with. Simons and Baier would find that information later that day, Deeb had purchased accidental death policies on two girls, Gayle Kelly and Christine Juhl. Deeb was the beneficiary on the policy for Gayle Kelly and David Spence was the beneficiary on the policy for Christine Juhl. The officers decided they needed to track down Christine Juhl, they found she had moved away from Waco by that time, she was in Forth Worth. They make contact with her and she agrees to return to Waco to talk to them.
Muneer Deeb would take a 3 hour lie detector test Saturday 18, 1982. When it was reported that Deeb didn’t show any deception in regards to questions about the murder, he was released. Whatever fractions and friction that existed in that police department by that time came to a head Truman Simons would leave the police department and go work for the county as a jailer.
I won’t get into Simons’ actions or conduct at the jail, I am more concerned with his investigation and the state of affairs when he was an officer for the Waco P.D.. Those whom believe in the innocence of the 4 that were convicted like to vilify him, he even gets torched by former fellow officers. Is he getting a fair shake, especially from people like Detective Ramon Salinas? For me if it was my daughter that had been raped and killed I would prefer the cop that went out and tracked down ever lead not the one that concentrated on one suspect and got tunnel vision, even when there were obvious signs and evidence that his theory was implausible and there was another possibility stronger possibility that he barely looked into and when he did it was half hearted at best. Again just my person feelings and opinion.
You don’t want to get into “cop bashing” ?? You did a pretty good job of bashing Salinas. ! So much so, it reminds me of the way Simons bashed Salinas to me during MANY of our phone calls and personal meetings during the investigation.
The question about the murder-for-hire, mistaken identity theory and Simons………he called me one day and told me that he had come across a girl that looked like Jill’s twin. Now, keep in mind the only time he saw Jill was as a corpse . She had been dead for many hours in the hot Texas sun, where she was tortured, stabbed, raped, and her throat slashed (not once, but twice). Am I believing he could claim she and Gayle would pass for twins???? Not hardly!
My opinion is this is where he began to develop the mistaken identity theory. His reputation was that he solved many cases by “tunnel vision”. Once he started his theories, he managed to “solve” it no matter what it took. Also, planting evidence seemed to be his specialty, allegedly. His solving the Juanita White case eventually ended with 2 men being released from prison and the actual killer being identified by his dna on the victim.
I too, do not wish to “bash”……..I simply believe there are guilty people still out there. (Some alive-some dead)
Mrs. Thompson I admit I was extremely harsh on Detective Ramon Salinas but honestly he left so much undone while he was the lead investigator. I understand he had other leads which he had to follow but as the lead investigator it was his responsibility to delegate and make sure all possible avenues were traveled and when all avenues aren’t traveled it leaves questions. You yourself, sitting through four grueling trials, know how stories changed over time, just think about how much some of those stories changed just during the summer of ’82 and if some of those stories were addressed or questioned back in July right after the murders happened what answers we may have now and what difference that could make. And afterwards up to now he has been publicly critical of this case, like it or not we know Salinas and Simons didn’t like each other, but it was Salinas’ own doing or the lack of that opened the door for Simons.
On Truman Simons he should have never said that kind of stuff, as I said no officer should have done that, it’s totally unprofessional. And I’m not trying to defend everything Simons did, especially once he went to work at the jail. But for those five days Friday September 10, 1982 through Tuesday September 14, 1982 that was excellent police work and he shouldn’t get all the credit he wasn’t alone let’s not forget Dennis Baier. And though it was Simons that came up with the mistaken identity theory one which I strongly disagree with, remember he arrested Muneer Deeb before the police even knew about the insurance policy, that theory developed later, what happened? Just thinking Jill and Gayle looked similar?
Of coarse you knew Jill personally and saw Gayle during the trials, did you think they looked that much alike. I know there supposedly were some that thought so, the few pictures I have seen of both girls I don’t see it. Yes Simons only saw Jill personally that once but he did see pictures of both girls. I would ask about one picture in particular, if you can remember. During Deeb’s re-trial in 1992 it would have been the state’s exhibit #100 which was a picture of both girls side by side. The reason I ask about this photo was when Christine Juhl testified that December 1992 and was asked if she could identify the individuals in that photograph, granted it was 10 years after the murders had occurred when Christine testified but here was her response and I quote “One of them is Gayle and one of them is Jill. IF I”M NOT MISTAKEN, the one on the right is Jill and this one, the one on the left is Gayle”. Christine might not have known Jill but she had already testified she saw Gayle at the store, “She came into the store quite a bit”. For an outsider like myself, if Christine Juhl had to qualify her answer with “If I’m not mistaken” it gives credence that the two girls Jill and Gayle may have looked alike. But even with that it’s a huge leap from two girls looking alike to mistakenly killing one for the other. Are we to believe not one word was spoken between the victims and their killers? The victims left the car they came to the park in and apparently got in a vehicle with their eventual killers, this happened without any discussion or conversation between the two parties? I would hypothesize Kenneth Franks was the target that night and when Simons arrested Muneer Deeb on Monday 13, 1982 that’s the information he had, what changed that? And I would add changing one’s theory would not be tunnel vision, he was willing to change his theory as new developments arose, what were they? Tunnel vision is more like when you continue to go after something even though all signs point to the impossibility of that view.
I don’t comment on the Juanita White case too often, each individual case needs to be dealt with separately. Yes that case was a fiasco and involved some of the same players. Many want to connect the two cases and rightfully so, for myself I feel it’s better to try to find the answers to one before we delve into the other and in keeping with that I will admit I haven’t looked into nor tried to follow the Juanita White murder closely, sure I have read articles about it and yes it looks as if there are as many questions in that case as there is in the Lake Waco murders. I would like to say though the DNA in Mrs. White’s case is much different than the DNA in the Lake Waco case.
On Truman Simons and planting evidence as you rightfully say it’s alleged, mainly coming from his enemies or distractors. I can’t say one way or the other if it’s true all I can say is there wasn’t any physical evidence left at the crime scene, if the crime scene was ever truly identified in the Lake Waco case, so there wasn’t any planting of evidence in this case. One may ask about the bracelet Simons found, that had no effect on the case. I feel Truman Simons gets unfairly vilified with regards to this case or at least those first 5 days after he took over the case. Mrs. Thompson I’m sure you have read the news articles on this case over the years and wouldn’t it be fair to say most of those articles miss facts, bend facts, make it look like Simons just went after Muneer and David without any probable cause or reason, that’s just not right. I’ll repeat again to find the truth we have to look at everything. Mrs. Thompson I hope my views on Simons and his investigation don’t put you off, I still have doubts and am still looking and asking questions.
Mrs. Thompson I guess I won’t be able to convince you to elaborate on whom you think either dead or alive may be involved? Could I ask if you might think if any of the so-called biker element had anything to do with it. I’ve always wondered about that. One witness told police that Kenneth owed one of the bikers money over some drugs, but there were a few stories out there that Kenneth owed people for drugs. And though Gayle Kelly didn’t mention either Muneer Deeb or David Spence when she first talked to police on July 20, she did talk about the bikers. She said Kenneth didn’t get along with the bikers and the only time he dealt with them was when he did drugs deals with Rebecca Des Marias. Yes the same Becky where we get the famed story of Tab Harper and she was a run away at the time and staying with a biker named Robert Wulf. And as you know the police were looking for a Robert that Jill may have had ties to. Gayle Kelly gave them the name of Robert De La Rosa if I remember correctly, I will have to look that up again.
Then when Gayle talked to police on July 23, she told them that three black men in a blue car had been following her on July 21. But when she talked to Simons and Baier on September 12, she told them that it was the bikers that were following her and just hanging around her apartment, sitting on the railing outside her apartment. Then she would say it was a biker from David’s gang that made the comment about living to see 18 to Patty. You know when she testified in 1984 that had changed to David had made that remark. Either way the biker theme came up pretty consistently.
Another stupid question I have is would you know how close were apartment #144 where Christine and David stayed and apartment #218 where Gayle and Patty stayed? If you were in one apartment could you see the comings and goings of the other.
I have quite a bit I would like to say concerning the last several questions. However, I am becoming more and more suspicious of the reason you are not able to reveal to me your identity. I am sure you understand that I have been approach many times with questions from people that I should not communicate with. There seems to be only a very slight interest in the comments/questions we have made.Since your objective was to get questions answered I feel that is not happening. I will think all this over and decide if there is an advantage to continue.Simple curiosity is not what I am interested in.
On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Careless Whispers or Contrived Convictions wrote:
> bkl67 commented: “Mrs. Thompson I guess I won’t be able to convince you to > elaborate on whom you think either dead or alive may be involved? Could I > ask if you might think if any of the so-called biker element had anything > to do with it. I’ve always wondered about that. On” >
Mrs Thompson, I have never said I can’t nor won’t reveal my identity, all I said in response to your comment that you didn’t know me was I wasn’t sure if there was anything I could do about that, not that I have a problem doing so. I will tell you anything you want to know but honestly will that convince you who I am, only you can answer that. But as I’ve told you in the past I have nothing to hide, I have nothing vested in this case one way or the other, just interested in finding the truth. Is that just simple curiosity maybe so, I guess it depends on what value you put on finding the truth. Mrs. Thompson I know just within the last few months you posted on another page the question, “Isn’t anyone else interested in knowing what is going on? If so join us and ask questions”. You saw my response to that. Also recently you stated you were getting tired of waiting but you were going to wait as long as it took to find the truth.
About your comment that you have been approached by people you shouldn’t talk to. if anybody has advised you that there are people you shouldn’t talk to they are totally full of crap, that’s only pushing away people that may be interested. Anyone can buy the book or get on-line and find information about this case that’s all public information and talk about it. I would question anyone that would try to quell those conversations, are they honestly looking for the truth. Mrs. Thompson you and only you should decide whom you want to talk to or don’t want to talk to, including me and we have to honor and respect that.
And again as I stated to you before, I feel part of the reason for an overall lack of interested in this case is due to the fact, that what few people have tried to keep some attention on this case are only interested on one side of the story They are going to turn off any of those that don’t agree with those views when they won’t allow those views to be equally expressed and debated as well. As I am well aware how you have stayed interested and involved in this case, surely you would have to admit all that’s ever printed or brought out about this case is totally slanted towards one view and at times the people pushing this one view have done so by misrepresenting the facts, bending facts or just outright ignoring the facts, that’s not right. I personally know this myself. You know I have commenting on many of these articles over the years. Just to point out one example, on the sight I was talking about earlier, he reported that Mr. Dannen found evidence, the van used during the murders and DNA found in that van was connected to Anthony Melendez. That’s a bombshell!!! And as you well know Mr. Dannen was one of the main proponents of Anthony’s innocence. But we don’t hear anymore about that, so I asked if there was anything new with this development and of coarse I never got a reply. And it has always been like that, if it’s anything that goes against their views of innocence they don’t and won’t talk about it. Is that looking for the truth???
Mrs. Thompson I’ve always been totally open and honest about my thoughts and views on this case and I’ve been open to listening to all thoughts and views. That’s why I started this page. Yes I was hoping I could generate more interest and that hasn’t developed yet. It’s only been 4 weeks so far and there’s other things I’m looking into doing that might help in that cause, spend a little money, see what information I’m allowed to put on here. I just don’t want to put stuff up only to be told I didn’t have the proper permission to do so. But this is the way to garner interest just get the story out there, let people see and allow them the chance to question or express whatever they would like. Then maybe if we get lucky somewhere down the line maybe someone tied to the case will feel the need to join the conversation. And you know that’s the problem now, People like Vic Feazell or Truman Simons don’t want to talk about it anymore but can you blame them, again that’s where just pushing one slanted view only hurts the quest for the truth. Why should they answer any questions when their answers are going to either be twisted or ignored and then they are going to be vilified by everyone. To find the answers and truth we have to change the conversation, change attitudes. Attitudes that have developed over 30 years, it will take time. Those that talk about honesty and truth but use lies and deceit only lead us to an abyss of misery.
Mrs. Thompson as I have stated before being allowed your knowledge, insights and thoughts are an invaluable asset and I can’t express enough my gratitude and I would hate to lose your input. I also understand you have to do what you feel is best and right, I can only say, and of coarse I’m totally bias in this, is you will see the value in my interest and in continuing. I sincerely hope to hear from you again, THANK YOU.
Rebecca DesMarias, Rusty Escott and Terry “Tab” Harper, what information did the police obtain? There has been much written on the possibility that Tab Harper was responsible for these murders. It has been reported over and over and over that many sources reported seeing Harper at the park or with the victims, is that what the police reports state? Harper had a bad reputation, had a long criminal history, would end up shooting himself during the commission of a crime in 1994, where he stabbed an elderly couple, the elder gentleman would die, This act would manage to throw further speculation upon Tab Harper. Though Harper’s name is mentioned many times early on if you look at the details you will find that most of those that reported hearing that Harper was involved or saw Harper got that information from one person and an unreliable person at that. Trying to read the police reports and clearing all this up can be difficult but it has been something I’ve been working on. I hopefully will be able to share this tomorrow, so stay tuned!!!
The first mention of Terry “Tab” Harper in the police reports is Detective Salinas’ report on July 17, 1982, 10:00am, he states; On July 16 approximately 10:30am Detective Nicoletti received call from anonymous caller. Caller said that Tab Harper had committed the murders and that the caller had seen Tab Harper standing beside victims car approximately between 9:00pm and 9:30pm. Harper had a record so Salinas and Nicoletti decided to go pick him up. They take him to the office of Judge Joe Johnson. While they were there the judge received a call from a known police informant. The informant told the judge he had heard from some kids that Tab Harper was responsible for the killings and that Harper had threatened a girl whom was a witness. With this information Salinas went to talk with the informant where he was told by informant that he had heard this from his nephew. The nephew had gotten this information from a girl named Leigh Ann whom was attending summer school at University High. Salinas then went to the high school and talked to the principle and got the name Leigh Ann Hogeland. When Leigh Ann was questioned about the information she had been telling people she stated she never made any comments pertaining to the murders nor Tab Harper. Salinas told her he had received information from two different callers that she had given them this information. Leigh Ann stood her ground and only added that some kids were saying that Tab Harper was capable of committing these murders. I would add at this time though it’s not in his report at this time. that Salinas got a few other names of students that were also attending summer school with the informant’s nephew, Leigh Ann Hogeland and Kenneth Franks and that might have heard the talk going around at that time. Salinas would not contact these students until November 12, 1982. Three teens were questioned by Salinas Kim McKay, Brian Gooding and Danny Hall, all three said they didn’t remember hearing any conversation about the murders. This information would be in Salinas’ report of November 30, 1982.
Next on Salinas’ report of July 18, 1982, 7:25pm he states; He received call July 17 approximately 9:15am from a Amy Brown. Amy says she heard from a friend that a Becky Demarias had told this friend of Amy’s that a friend of Becky’s had told Becky that he knew where three dead bodies could be found at Speegleville Park and that this was before the police had this information. Amy also stated Becky was a runaway and no one knew where to find her and that Becky was afraid to come forward. Salinas asked Amy if she knew any of Becky’s friend, she gave him the name Billy Wortham and a biker she only knew by the name Armadillo.
Salinas’ report of July 20, 1982, 8:05am Salinas states: 3:05pm, gives no date but it looks like this happened on July 19, made contact with Mr. Walter DesMarias, Becky’s father. Father tells Salinas and Detective Fortune that he was getting ready to call the police because his daughter was hanging around some shady characters that might have something to do with these murders. Mr. DesMarias tells them that Becky is staying with a biker named Wolf. Salinas and Fortune track down this biker, find him to be one Russell Wulf and find Becky at his home, approximately 3:30pm July 19.
During interview with Becky she tells them that she didn’t hear anything about bodies being found until Wednesday July 14 after 8:00pm. and gives them the following details; After arriving at Koehne Park after 8:00pm she noticed Tab Harper giving one of her friends, Brent May, a hard time. Becky says she confronted Harper because she didn’t want him to hurt May. Then Harper asked her where was Bud, which is Wulf, She told him at the Manhattan Lounge, Harper asked her for a ride there and she refused, after that is when conversation that three bodies that had been raped and stabbed at Speegleville came up. Becky adds that Harper was laughing about this in his usual crazy manner. She added Harper had also told her he had seen a lot of police cars headed in that direction and that Harper was with two friends Lefty and a Greg Cubbison whom had been recently released from jail. Becky Stated this conversation took place approximately between 8:30pm and 9:00pm and that several people were present during this conversation.
Checking on her story Salinas next called Brent May at approximately 4:55pm. May confirmed he had an altercation with Harper, Salinas asked him when this happened, at first May says between 9:00pm and 9:30pm. Salinas asks him to think about it to be sure then May says between 8:45pm and 9:00pm. May also gives Salinas names of others that were present at the time; Gail Copeland, Ray Hill and Cody Miles. Salinas was unable to contact Hill or Miles but called Gail at approximately 5:20pm. Gail stated that she had gotten to the park between 6:30pm and 7:00pm and that the altercation between Harper and May happened between 10:00pm and 11:00pm. Salinas asked her if she was sure about the time, Gail replied she would check with some of her friends.
After these interviews Salinas questions Becky again and tells her he received information from 3 or 4 sources that Becky had talked to Harper Wednesday before noon, Becky still persisted that it was Wednesday night when she talked to Harper and first heard about the bodies.
Salinas would make a second report later that same day July 20, approximate time 10:50pm. In this report he tells us that at 8:40am July 20, he talks to a Roger Sherman and was told by Sherman that approximately two weeks before the murders Tab Harper had asked him if he wanted to pick up a whore and kill her. Salinas states that he had arranged a polygraph test for Becky DesMarias for this day and decided to recontact Leigh Ann Hogeland. Salinas asked Leigh Ann if the girl that gave her the information about the bodies being found at Speegleville Park before noon Wednesday was Becky, Leigh Ann admitted it was and that Becky told her it was Harper that Becky had talked to. But Leigh stated that it wasn’t Wednesday before noon, she said she heard this Wednesday evening at approximately 7:30pm while she was with a friend at Town West Center on Valley Mills. Her friend’s name was Gayla Scott.
Salinas and Sgt. Fortune went to Gayla Scott’s home and questioned her. She tells them she was with Leigh Ann but doesn’t remember anybody talking about bodies being found and that there were so many kids out there but she didn’t remember seeing a girl matching Becky’s description.
1:50pm July 20 Becky beings her polygraph test which last until approximately 3:00pm. Analyst Sgt Sherrell advises Salinas that Becky had not run a true chart however he was unsure if she lied to all the questions or was deathly afraid. Salinas questions her again about when she first talked with Harper about the bodies at Speegleville Park, she still persisted it was Wednesday between 8:45pm and 9:00pm.
Now we get to Nicoletti’s first report that mentions Harper which he typed up July 20, 1982, 8:08am. Remember he is repeating some of the same information that we have already read in Salinas’ earlier reports.
At 11:00am July 16 received call from anonymous caller stating that caller had been at Airport Park Wednesday July 14 and had talked to a girl that told him she had talked to Harper that morning, Wednesday July 14 before noon, and Harper had asked this girl if she had heard about the bodies being found at Speegleville Park. Caller stated that Harper was suspicious and he thought that Harper could be responsible for the murders. Caller would not give his name nor the name of the girl whom he talked to, stating he was very scared of Harper and his friends.
1:30pm July 16 received another anonymous call. Caller stated he had heard from a Rusty Escott that a girl had told him(Rusty) that Harper was asking her about the murders Wednesday morning, With this information Nicoletti looked up Rusty Escott and called him 2:00pm July 20. When Nicoletti first made contact Rusty asked Nicoletti how he got his number and informed Nicoletti that he(Rusty) was the anonymous caller that had called earlier. Rusty stated he had talked to a Rebecca at Airport Park Wednesday morning about Tab Harper and the murders, He didn’t know Rebecca’s last name but he was sure that he talked to her on Wednesday morning. Rusty also added that he was in Koehne Park Tuesday July 13 and had seen Harper standing outside his black Chevrolet van next to the orange Pinto.
By this time, the time of this report, Salinas and Fortune had found Rebecca’s identity and had picked her up and interviewed her. At approximately 5:00pm July 19 Nicoletti called Rusty back to ask him if the Rebecca he had talked to was Rebecca DesMarias. Rusty admitted it was.
Salinas states in his report of July 22. 1982 3:15pm; At 10:05am July 21 Larry Hogeland came into station with daughter Leigh Ann to be interviewed. Salinas states that he had interviewed Leigh Ann before on Friday July 16 and that she didn’t give him information at that time and she still wouldn’t give any information about the identity of Becky during this interview.
This is very confusing, which you will find in many of Salinas’ reports. This is what I’m talking about when I say it was critically important for the reporting officer to be precise and clear, which Salinas regularly failed to do and this came back to hurt them when Christine Juhl testified in Muneer Deeb’s re-trial.
Salinas states that this interview was on July 22 and that Leigh would still not give him any information to the identity of Rebecca but he states in his report of July 20 that he found Rebecca’s identity, talked to her father and after interviewed her. And in this report of July 22 Salinas doesn’t even mention the second time he talked to Leigh Ann which was on July 20, where he asks her if she had gotten the information about the murders from Becky and Leigh Ann admitted she had, which Salinas puts in his second report of July 20.
Now we come to the first time officers talked to Gayle Kelly which was July 20, Nicoletti puts this information in his report of July 23, 3:17pm. Gayle states that Kenneth didn’t get along with the bikers and that the only time he had any dealings with them was when he was doing drug deals with Rebecca DesMarias. Gayle also states that Kenneth told her he was going to be coming into some big money because of some drug deal he was going to make. Gayle said Kenneth would not give her the name of the person he was going to be making the deal with for her safety but it was some one that had returned to Waco recently and that she knew this person. Nicoletti asked Gayle did she know anybody that would fit this description, some one that had returned to Waco recently and would be dealing drugs with Kenneth, Gayle gave three names; a Transky that had gone to prison for narcotics and been paroled about a year earlier. The second name was Tab Harper whom Kenneth liked to party with and whom Kenneth said always got a hold of good narcotics. The third name she gave was a Joey from Dallas whom had come to Waco on one occasion about four months prior and had brought a large amount of narcotics with him and that a lot of narcotics and money was passed around when he was here and he had told Kenneth he would get up with Kenneth the next time he came to town.
The next time we would hear about Tab Harper was in Salinas’ report of July 26, 4:25pm. Salinas got information July 23 8:15am from Scott Johnson, some one Salinas had talked to on July 16. Approximately 9:45am and put in his report of July 17. Scott tells Salinas he had talked to a Robert Spikes on July 22 approximately 4:30pm and Robert had told Scott that he (Robert) had seen a black van in Koehne Park Tuesday night July 13 and that the people in the black van were arguing with the people in the orange Pinto. 9:50am July 23 Salinas calls Robert to varify this story. Robert tells him no he didn’t see this he heard it from a Tony Shaw and that this Tony Shaw had told him(Robert) that he(Tony) had talked to this guy named Rusty and Rusty had told him that he(Rusty) had talked to this girl named Becky Wednesday morning July 14. Becky told Rusty that this guy was bragging about bodies at Speegleville Park. At First Tony says that he thought the name of the guy that was doing the bragging was Ken, then he said it was Tab and he believed it to be Tab Harper.
Salinas would go and talk to Tony Shaw at 10:20am, Tony would tell him that Rusty had talked to him directly and given this information about Becky and Rusty talking Wednesday morning. For the first time Salinas would write that this information was hearsay in this report of July 26 but if you look back everybody that had called with information about Tab Harper had gotten it from some one else except Rusty Escott. And most of these people had gotten it from Rusty Escott. Now we will see how reliable Rusty truly was.
On Salinas’ report of July 28, 1982 10:05am, he states; 11:00am, gives no date but it looks like it would have been July 27 which would have been the day before. brought Rebecca DesMarias to the police department and interrogated her again about her knowledge of murders. Again she stated she didn’t know anything. Salinas then asked her if she knew the motorcycle club called the Scorpions, again she replied she didn’t. Salinas continued asking her if the people at the North 18th Street motorcycle shop could be Scorpions. Rebecca said she had a friend Carren Ritchie that was going with a biker by the name of Angel that was employed at the North 18th Street shop and a member of that club. Finally Salinas asked her if she knew any Mexicans that ran around with Tab Harper, Rebecca answered the only one she knew was a guy that went by the name Bird.
At 1:45pm Salinas and Nicoletti went to the apartment of Carren Ritchie to question her. Carren told the officers that she didn’t know Angel’s name she only knew him by that nickname and the club on North 18th Street didn’t have a name per say and didn’t fly colors or things of that nature. She then added that she had seen Rebecca at Flat Rock Park the previous Friday, July 23, and at that time Rebecca had not said anything about the murders or that she had any knowledge about them. While Salinas and Nicoletti were at Carren’s another girl that knew Rebecca came to the apartment, this girl was Kathy Prochnow.
Kathy stated see had seen Raylene with Jill several months before. Kathy knew Jill from the home. Kathy went on to tell the officers that she was at Koehne Park Tuesday July 13 approximately 7:30pm to 9:00pm . She was riding with a biker named Fingers and they were riding with Angel and Carren. Kathy remembered seeing the orange Pinto with Kenneth and the girls come into the park but she didn’t talk to them, Kathy and her friends were just riding through and left.
After this Salinas made contact with Angel, whom stated he was at the park Tuesday when the girls (Carren and Kathy) said. He did see Tab Harper messing around with some kids down there though he didn’t remember seeing if Harper was in a car or van, relating that they don’t associated with Tab Harper. Next Salinas tracked down biker Sundance, who is Harold Mitchell owner of the shop on North 18th Street.
The morning of July 28 Salinas received a call from Georgia Hofen, she told him her children had told her they knew a Johnny Mayhew and Mayhew had told them that he had talked to a Rusty the previous Friday and Rusty had told him that he(Rusty) had seen the victims get into a van with a subject that was known to be a bad guy
Salinas contacts Mayhew and asks him about the conversation he had with Rusty. Mayhew stated he doesn’t remember anything Rusty might have to say because Rusty is a little guy with a big mouth and is not a very credible person. Mayhew added Rusty had told him that he(Rusty) had seen Kenneth at Jack’s Stereo earlier the day of the murders. With this information Salinas and Nicoletti decided they needed to talk to Rusty Escott again.
Detective Salinas brought Rusty Escott to the police department the following day July 28 at 11:07am, this would be on his report of July 29, 1982 12:45pm. Salinas told Rusty that they had received information from several people that they heard from Rusty that he had talked to Rebecca DesMarias about Tab Harper telling her about the bodies before the bodies were found, that this conversation between Rebecca and Rusty had taken place Wednesday morning before noon and that Rusty had told people he saw the victims getting in the van belonging to Tab Harper. Salinas asked Rusty for all the details of this meeting with Rebecca.
Rusty answered that he had been wrong on the day, he had talked to Rebecca on Thursday morning July 15. Rusty did not remember if Rebecca told him when she talked to Harper. Remember she always claimed, even after many interrogations, that she talked to Tab Harper Wednesday night. Rusty apologized for mixing up the day but now Salinas realizing the whole story of Tab Harper knowing about the bodies Wednesday morning was nothing more than a rumor started by Rusty Escott, he askes Rusty was he even at the park Tuesday night July 13 and if he saw Tab Harper and the victims getting into his van. Rusty states that he was at the park Tuesday night between 8:00pm and 9:00pm and he had seen Tab Harper sitting in his van parked beside the orange Pinto but never saw the victims, Harper was just talking to a guy. Rusty had been the only witness to state that he had seen the victims get into the van, now he was changing his story and admitting he never saw the victims.
Now at this point, after the only person that had said he had seen Harper and the victims together admitted this wasn’t the truth nor was the rumor he started about talking to Rebecca DesMarias on Wednesday morning and the officers had brought in and questioned Tab Harper whom gave them an alibi which they checked and verified, one would think that the investigators would move on to other leads they had gotten and not followed up like Muneer Deeb which two girls had said could be responsible for the murders. One, Lisa Kader straight out told them that it was because of Gayle Kelly and Gayle Kelly was staying at the apartment of the other girl, Patty Deis, you would think the investigators would want to check this out but they hadn’t even try to talk to Deeb, no one would until Simons took over the case September 10. Salinas still was tracking down stories on Tab Harper. What was he trying to do, verify a lie?
Anyway on his report of August 3, 1982 8:05am, Salinas states that at 9:00am August 2 he received a call from a Bob Seggler whom stated that he had talked to Nicoletti earlier about a girl from the Gemini Apartments named Nell Priest. Seggler said he had talked to Nell Priest about midnight July 27 and she had told Seggler that she talked to Harper July 14 before the news of the murders had broken out and Harper had told Priest her days were numbered. Seggler also said that Priest had told him that she had called crime stoppers but no record of this call could be found. Salinas left his card on the door of Nell Priest’s apartment.
Nell Priest called later and asked why his card was left on her door, Salinas explained he wanted to talk to her about some information he had obtained. He asked her if she could come down to the police station so they could talk in the privacy of his office, Nell agreed to this. At 12:45pm August 2 Nell came to the police station. Salinas asked her about some comments she had made about Harper admitting he the murders, Priest denied any knowledge of this. After this Nell detailed how she knew Tab Harper. She stated she had met Harper about a year earlier at Airport Park, as she was walking to the park’s restrooms Harper came up behind her and grabbed her up and refused to let her go. Nell busted a beer bottle over his head and then Harper threw her down and pulled out a knife and told her he ought to kill her for what she did, however Nell stated she was not afraid of Harper at that time. Nell continued that she had seen Harper about a week or two weeks before the murders at Jack’s Stereo and he stated that he was ready to go back to the pen and he was going to hurt some one really bad before he went back. Salinas asked Nell if she knew anybody that was running around with Harper she gave the name Mark Boatwright. Then she stated she was at Midway Park either Wednesday July 14 or Thursday July 15 running her dogs and she saw Harper and Boatwright and Harper was bragging about having killed two girls and a boy, saying he cut off the nipples and breast of the girls and the privates of the boy. Nell stated she didn’t pay much attention to Harper thinking he was just running his mouth as he usually does. Salinas asks Nell about any of her friends that might have been present, at first she refuses to give any names but then gave the name June Wilson whom had come to the station with her, June had been the one that asked her about the murders Thursday morning July 15 this being the first Nell had heard about the murders. Nell further stated that she had heard from some kids that she refused to identify, that were saying if the police would check under the seat of Harper’s car or van they would find a bloody knife.
Salinas called June Wilson 1:57pm August 2, June confirmed she had told Nell about the murders Thursday morning. June further stated she had been to the park and heard about the murders Wednesday. Salinas asked her about the day and time, she stated she had gone to Midway Park with Nell Priest about 3:30pm and this is when she heard about the murders. June added she saw Harper and Boatwright had come to the park in a boat and Harper had made comments about killing three kids two girls and a boy. June says she got sick to the stomach and left. June then stated she wasn’t sure about the day or time she heard this, she said she would talk to some friends and call back. June called back August 3 at 8:00am and talked to Detective Trantham, she told him she was positive that she heard this on Wednesday July 14, no mention of time. With this new information Salinas decided he needed to talk to Mark Boatwright.
On August 2 2:30pm Salinas received a call from a Louise Burney whom was the probation officer for one David Sanders. On August the first Sanders told Burney that a Mr. Howser, Tab and Bubba were in a devil’s cult. Burney stated Sanders would call her back with more information on this group.
August 5, 1982 Detective Salinas and Sgt. Holstien made contact with Mark Boatwright at his place of employment, trying to verify the information Salinas had gotten from June Wilson that Mark Boatwright was at Midway Park Wednesday 3:30pm July 14 with Tab Harper. Boatwright informed officers that he hadn’t been hanging around with Harper for over a month because Harper liked to start trouble. Boatwright also told them that on Wednesday July 14 he wasn’t with Harper, wasn’t in a boat and wasn’t at the park he was working. Salinas and Holstien went into the office and talked to the manager. The manager confirmed Boatwright was at work and couldn’t be at the park at 3:30pm, not on July 14 or any other day that week, Boatwright had worked all week coming in at 8 and working complete shifts. Salinas would detail this in his report of August 5, 1982 4:40pm.
This in effect would end the investigation of Terry “Tab” Harper” as a possible suspect in the murders of Jill Montgomery, Raylene Rice and Kenneth Franks, until 1994, twelve years later after Harper killed himself while committing another crime and the old rumors started circulating again. Sgt Holstien would go talk to one Charles Sedigas at the Bellmead jail on August 26, 1982. Sedigas would relate a story where he and another friend were in the parking lot of Jack’s stereo about two or three weeks prior, which would have been early August, and that two subjects arrived in a black van, one subject was a Mexican and the other was a guy he believed his name was Tabor. Sedigas said that Tabor was trying to start fights with everyone and stated he had killed someone before and then the Mexican subject said he knew Tabor had killed someone before and that Tabor was involved with the murders of the kids at the lake. Then the Mexican said Tabor had a gun and had killed the kids. When the Mexican subject asked Tabor about this Tabor responded what do you think, laughed and walked away. Sedigas did not know first or last name of Tabor or Mexican Subject.
Sedigas also gave information to Holstien about the Beth Bramlett murder, the girl that had been murdered August 9- August 10 outside Axtell. Sedigas said he had dated Beth months prior to her death and that he was at the party the night she was shot. Holstien didn’t know if Sedigas was being truthful and stated it appeared to her that Sedigas was looking to make some kind of deal to dismiss or reduce some of the charges against him, one of which was assault on a police officer. Holstien passed on the information about Beth Bramlett to the Sheriff’s office, they being the agency handling her case and detailed this meeting with Charles Sedigas in her report of August 31, 1982, 10:10am, This would be the last mention of Tab Harper in the police reports dealing with this case, on September 3, 1982 the case was suspended.
It is still hard to understand why the Waco Police Department would suspend a TRIPLE MURDER CASE in less than two months. I was told that it wasn’t closed , just “suspended”. “If someone walks into station with good information or confesses, they would look into it.” In my opinion, that was a “slap in the face of the victims and their families. “
Mrs. Thompson I totally agree with you. And that they didn’t follow up on all the leads they had at that time is totally astonishing. That was the reason given why the case was suspended; the investigators weren’t getting any new leads or information and hadn’t for weeks, two or three weeks. I will belabor this point again, people are unhappy with Truman Simons and maybe rightfully so but when he took over the case on September 10 he didn’t create new leads or go after anyone without reason, he followed up leads that were already there, he did so with the knowledge, knowledge anyone would have obtained if they looked at the police reports at that time when the case was suspended. Chief Scott knew Simons’ reputation and that letting him work the case was going to ruffle some feathers that’s why he teamed him up with Dennis Baier to make sure Simons didn’t go off on one of his own personal crusades. And look at how much things had changed from the beginning of the investigation July 14 until Simons and Baier started talking to people September 10. Christine and David had broken up, she wasn’t even living in Waco by the time Simons and Baier talked to her on September 14 or 15. Gayle Kelly and Muneer Deeb had patched things up by the time Gayle was asked about Deeb on September 12, he was sleeping over at the apartment with Gayle and Patty. Just think about all the questions that could have been asked and were missed even though the police reports clearly show they had information that the murders may have had something to do with Gayle Kelly and Muneer Deeb by July 19 and did absolutely nothing with that information.
Was there any contact between the people in the two apartments; 144 the apartment Deeb had paid for Gayle Kelly to stay and by the night of the murders was occupied by Christine and David and apartment 218 where Gayle was staying with Patty Deis? Gayle Kelly would testify bikers, bikers in David’s gang, were hanging around apartment 218 harassing and following her. Were these bikers also hanging out at David’s apartment? Could Gayle at the time this was happening back in July and was never asked identify any of these bikers or associates of David Spence? What was the reason she identified them, the bikers, as being in David’s gang. Gayle also testified Kenneth kept Muneer from seeing her, where was Deeb trying to contact Gayle, at the apartment? And if Deeb was trying to see Gayle at apartment 218, then did he spend anytime or hang out at apartment 144 or around the apartment complex in general? I’ve asked this before; were the two apartments close enough that some one at one apartment could see people coming and going from the other. If Kenneth was trying to keep Deeb away from Gayle at the apartment was there a confrontation or altercation between the two? If so when, was there more than one, did anybody else see or witness this? All this could or should have been asked back in July, by the time Simons and Baier asked questions this had all changed, When they first contacted Christine Juhl it was because of the insurance policy. Dana Diamond had told Simons and Baier that Deeb had told her that the two girls that were killed had been at his store the day they were killed and he just missed getting $20,000 because he had an insurance policy on a girl that was suppose to be with the two girls that were killed. Dana didn’t know what girl, Simons and Baier found there were two policies. one for Gayle and one for Christine. The arrangement of the apartments was discussed but what relevance that fact may have had was missed because Christine and David had moved on when Christine was first talked to in September. I’m probably not explaining that very clearly, if the officers would have asked Gayle about Deeb either time they talked to her July 20, July 23 or when Nicoletti went to talk to her at the apartment on July 28, things at that time would have been like or at least closer to how things were on the nights of the murders and a plausible connection could have been made at that time, Christine and David in apartment 144 and Gayle and Patty in apartment 218 and there being some state of hostility between Gayle and Muneer, that’s not how things were when Simons and Baier talked to Gayle on September 12, Christine and David were gone and Muneer was staying with Gayle in apartment 218. This was not the only lead or information that was left untouched by the investigators up until the time the case was suspended.
I see a lot about how the truck both the Melendez brothers testified was used to transport the bodies could not have been used because it was sitting on blocks and wasn’t running. I would have to ask the people that keep stating this do they understand impeaching testimony? Just because some one says something doesn’t make it true, yes Calvin Nesbit testified that the truck was sitting in his yard all of July 1982 but his testimony was impeached.
Here is what Calvin Nesbit stated; I can’t remember the date, the truck was in my yard for about three months, about two months before July through all of July. I know it was there on July 4 because I have a family barbecue every July 4. And Mr. Nesbit wasn’t sure when and whom picked up the truck, though he did state he did see Mr. Melendez’s step dad come out to work on the truck and that Gilbert had been out there to work on the truck but again he wasn’t sure how many times Gilbert had come out.
The person that sold Gilbert Melendez was Richard Sulak, both Mr. Sulak and his wife Rhonda would testify that Gilbert bought the truck on July 3, 1982 and that it was in running order and not only did they say this they had a notarized document that stated the date of sale July 3, 1982. This truck could not have been sitting in Calvin Nesbit’s yard two months before July, Gilbert didn’t buy it until July 3. That’s impeaching testimony and just if for some unfathomable reason this wasn’t enough, the prosecution was able to correct Mr. Nesbit’s faulty timeline. Mr. Melendez’s stepfather picked up the truck after Gilbert had been arrested and was in jail for the Darvin Pack incident which happened Labor Day weekend, Labor Day was September 6 that year and Gilbert was arrested that week, that’s when the truck was picked up. The truck was not in Mr.Nesbit’s yard May, June and through July as he testified. It was picked up in September, was there through August and taken to his home sometime in July. Mr. Nesbit also testified that when the truck was first brought to him the tires were not flat, they became flat after sitting there for awhile.
While some may argue that the truck was in Mr. Nesbit’s yard sometime during July and there is some wiggle room for the exact dates, impeached testimony is impeached testimony, Mr. Nesbit was clearly wrong that the truck was there two months before July, if he couldn’t even at least get the months correct are we to believe he was right on the days.
Earlier I was reading the Grand Jury testimony again, something I hadn’t done in a long while, the trial testimony keeps me intrigued and perplexed for countless hours. But neglecting such a vital source one forgets the sheer inconsistencies between the police reports. the Grand Jury testimony and trial testimony and as with so much with this case; questions!!!
One thing I thought was very telling or very strange, Christine Juhl was pretty sure on dates in her Grand Jury testimony of November 1983 and her trial testimony at Deeb’s re-trial in December 1992. She remembered David and Muneer talked about the insurance scam on July 4, She knew she moved into the apartment Deeb had gotten for Gayle on July 10. She stated she moved out July 20. Her last day working for Deeb and the day she left Waco was August 7. Christine was sure on all these dates but when it came to July 13 and July 14 her memory was much more hazy. She could remember the days before and the days after but not those days, why? Another day she could not date was the day Gilbert and Tony took Christine and David out to Speegleville park in Gilbert’s truck but since she was sure she moved out July 20 and Gilbert didn’t buy the truck until July 3, it had to be between those dates.
I’ve just been reading the statements and testimony of Richard Frank’s again, IMHO something just doesn’t feel right. I know I’m always looking for connections and sometimes I may be trying to make 1 + 2 = 4 but when you take into account all he said it feels like it as to be more than just coincidences. Having said that I still strongly believe the 4 that were originally convicted were responsible for this horrendous crime. I guess I would put it like this I feel at least 90% sure they did it, so that leaves room for doubts and questions and if they didn’t do it Richard Franks would top my suspect list along with Robert Freuh and Clifford Oliver.
The one thing I would question about the guilt of Spence and the Melendez brothers is this; at least one of the victims had to know their killer(s) and went off them one way or another but why? To go off and party? To me that just doesn’t add up. Of coarse I didn’t know the girls personally and can’t say for sure how they acted or behaved. But according to the reports it doesn’t make sense they would run off to party when they had to return home shortly. Raylene Rice seemed to be very responsible, at least for a teenager and I guess that adds an intangible difficult to measure, she had to be at work 8:00am the next morning. Though Jill Montgomery had had some troubles it looks like she was making a real effort to get things straight in her life. She had just returned home recently and this was apparently on a probationary basis, see how things worked out. Was she willing to risk that to just ride off and party with some guys she really didn’t know? One could argue that Kenneth knew the killer(s) and Jill and Raylene just followed his lead. But I would even question that. Jill and Kenneth may have been in love but there had been troubles with their relationship and Jill seems to be the one that was more in control, maybe more mature. When Kenneth had gotten rough with her before she ended the relationship. She apparently had a conversation with her mother shortly before that night (July 13) about what to do about being in love with a problem. To me that doesn’t sound like some one that just goes along with it. Then there’s the time factor, I have seen where it has been said that the girls were suppose to be back home in Waxahachie by midnight but where does that come from? Mr. Rice didn’t even know Raylene had taken Jill to Waco. Raylene’s mother really hasn’t said much. Renelle, Raylene’s younger sister, said Raylene told their mother she was going to eat dinner with Jill and her mother and would be home after that, she gave the time 10:00pm. Mrs. Shaw, Jill’s mother said she expected Jill to be home by dark which was approximately 9:00pm, so a time frame between 9pm and 10pm seems reasonable.
If the girls got to the park between 7:30pm and 8:00pm and they were suppose to be back in Waxahachie which was over an hour away that didn’t leave them much time, even if as usual teenagers they were going to push things to the limit. I think when they took off with whom ever, they did so knowing they could trust that person and/or they would be back very shortly. Even if Kenneth tried to talk Jill and Raylene into getting into a car to go partying, I see Jill resisting this, telling him no! She hadn’t come back to Waco to blow up everything she was working on back in Waxahachie. Which brings me back to Mr. Franks.
Mr. Franks was at the lake that night also, though he said he was at Midway Park. He said he left his house between 8:30pm and 9:00pm. That was the same park Clifford Oliver and his friends were and where Clifford left his car. Clifford said he got there approximately between 8:30pm and 9:00pm. Obvious question did Mr. Franks and Clifford Oliver and his friends run into each other or see each other? To me it is more than likely. But when Mr. Franks called the police the next morning about the abandoned car which belonged to Clifford Oliver he said he didn’t know anything about the car or the owner, very strange to me.
Another thing that doesn’t add up and there was never a definitive answer found. The M.E. said the victims were killed about midnight and that they had eaten about a hour before they died. The contents of their stomachs matched what they had eaten earlier in the night, before 7:30pm. Kenneth burger and fries and the girls Mexican food. Mr. Franks said he ate burgers and fries with Kenneth when he had sent him to Whataburger but when Mr. Franks went out that night he went to Dairy Queen on Valley Mills that night and got burgers again. Clifford Oliver’s wife worked at Dairy Queen, she and Clifford had gotten into a fight that night. Clifford said he and his friends were on Valley Mills and went to the 7-11 to get beer. Again could Mr. Franks and Clifford and his friends have run into each other? Mr. Franks said he got home about midnight that night. Clifford Oliver said when they left the park to try to get more beer it was after midnight,
I can’t find it right now but know a girl reported seeing Kenneth in a truck with two guys, Clifford was riding around in Todd Childers’ truck. Todd’s truck was a green Dodge, again I would have to look back at the reports but I think I saw a green truck mentioned in a couple of the reports. Gayle Kelly testified Mr. Franks called her the morning of July 14. Mr. Franks testified he went to Patty Deis’ apartment at the Northwood apartments that morning. I don’t know which one is true but if Mr. Franks went to Patty’s apartment (218) that morning, Clifford Oliver was also there at David Spence’s (144). I would ask is it possible that Mr. Franks and Clifford Oliver kept showing up at the same places but never saw or ran into each other?
And what about what Donna Olsen told the police about Mr. Franks telling one of her friends that the bodies were found where he use to go camping. I know when he testified they tried to clean that up, making it sound like he was talking about the general area not so much the specific place where the bodies were found. The same with Mr. Franks selling the boat and Kenneth not being able to miss any more days of school. Mr. Franks and the state wanted it to look like there weren’t any problems in that home. They left out the relationship between Mr. Franks and Kenneth King and the relationship between Kenneth Franks and Kenneth King though it had been reported they didn’t get along nor did Kenneth’s friends. It was reported Mr. Franks had come on to a couple of Kenneth’s male friends. So was it true everything was good and fine at that house?
Now that it looks like the DNA evidence battle is finally over, the latest testers revealing the same thing Dr. Ed Blake said many years ago, “he could find nothing”, where does that leave anybody that was looking for the truth? I must say either way the DNA results went it wasn’t going to be a cure all and provide all the answers. If it could have proven Anthony Melendez was innocent, which I totally doubted just because the type of evidence that was being tested, as I said before just because you don’t leave a hair somewhere doesn’t mean you weren’t there, there would have been even more questions about whom was responsible. For all those that will keep pointing to Tab Harper, there is still no credible evidence against him or that he was even at the park that night. One unreliable witness (Rusty Escott) that changed his stories is far from credible. I would still like either Detective Ramon Salinas or Detective Mike Nicoletti to explain why they released Harper so fast, they could have held Harper on suspicion of murder for sometime, don’t know the exact length of time they could have held him each state is different. But remember the information they had at the time, the police were told there was an eye witness to the crime and Harper would kill her if she came forward. Common sense would dictate the police would have held on to Harper at least until they could find and talk to this apparent eye witness but it looks like they released Harper before they tracked down Rebecca DesMarias the supposed eye witness, why? In his report Salinas states Harper wasn’t their guy but gives no explanation, not that I’m questioning his judgement, I feel the detectives had a very good reason to come to this conclusion but what was it? Surely “I was sitting home watching tv” is not a rock solid alibi, of coarse that being what has been reported he said. I just wish Salinas or Nicoletti would clear this up so people could move on from Tab Harper.
And talking about alibis, what about Anthony Melendez’s apparent alibi? The F.B.I. looked into this, what did they find? I’ve seen it reported that Anthony had a rock solid alibi. Again I doubt that and that’s why we haven’t seen the F.B.I. report, don’t you think if the F.B.I. was investigating this and found rock solid evidence it would have come out at some point, I think this is just another case where the findings were inconclusive, the difference between an alleged alibi and a rock solid alibi.
Anthony’s alibi that he was painting in Bryan that afternoon and never went to Waco but stayed in Bryan has been supported by his uncle and two cousins that were painting with Anthony. Sounds like case closed but not so fast, here’s the problem with this alibi. Anthony Melendez’s family had lied to authorities before to protect Anthony just look at how he was getting paid at that job. He took his pay out of his cousin’s check so they could help him avoid detection from authorities. So their statements can’t be taken as the truth on their own, there would need to be corroborating evidence. One may ask about Anthony’s employer and this would show the difference between an alleged alibi and a rock solid alibi. Anthony’s employer couldn’t say for sure if Anthony was there all day, he wasn’t at the site all day if at all himself and it was the kind of job, which is common, where the workers didn’t punch a time clock, so even though Anthony got paid for being there doesn’t mean he was there, this would give Anthony’s cousins another reason to lie because if Anthony and one of his cousins took off they didn’t inform their boss and got paid for it. Now compare that with this alibi. Nell Priest and June Wilson reported seeing Tab Harper at the park Wednesday July 13 afternoon with a subject named Mark Boatman. The police tracked down Boatman at his place of employment. Boatman told the police he hadn’t been at the park he was at work. In this case there was a time card and Boatman’s supervisor confirmed Boatman was at work that day. So not only did the police have the time card as evidence but they also had the supervisor’s own statement to corroborate, that’s a rock solid alibi. I think that clearly shows the difference between the two alibis.
Not that Anthony’s employer being unable to give him a rock solid alibi should be the end of trying to find one, which I would think the F.B.I. would definitely looked into but this is where things may work against Anthony just because the passage of time. Melendez states they stayed in motels during the week while they were painting in Bryan and would return to Waco on Friday. Did anyone remember seeing Anthony at any motel that evening, are there any security videos that could support this or prove otherwise, a video showing his uncle and/or either of his cousins checking in or being at a motel but no Tony would be very damning for Melendez but again I doubt if this is the case because it would have come out. If they were staying in Bryan they had to eat did anyone remember seeing Anthony out eating anywhere? They were painting an apartment complex, I don’t know if it was a new complex without residents or not but could anyone at that complex remember see Anthony that afternoon. The F.B.I. would have asked and looked into all this and I would guess they didn’t find anything conclusive. They probably asked people but too much time had passed that people couldn’t remember exact days or dates which Anthony would have needed for a rock solid alibi. For those pushing Anthony’s innocence I would ask him where he stayed that night or if he could remember where he ate. If he can’t remember exactly I would ask him were there places he regularly stayed or ate. Looking at that F.B.I. report should be a priority. Accusations and innuendos will prove nothing, you need evidence.
Looks like we’ve hit the proverbial wall that silent lull where no thoughts nor ideas can break the ice. But I keep reading over everything and innumerable questions remain. Mrs. Thompson I hope you could answer this one question for me. I know Jill was at your house waiting for Raylene to get off work before they headed to Waco. While there she told you she had a couple things she needed to pick up from the Methodist Home; a REO Speedwagon poster and a shirt or sweatshirt she had let one of the other girls at the home borrow. The police checked to see if Jill had returned or visited the Home that day (July 13) but they couldn’t find anyone that had seen Jill. My question were those items ever returned to the family and/or did the family ever find out whom the girl was that had these items?
I never saw the poster or shirt . My recollection is her house mother did say that she came by that day (the 13th). I do know that in some pictures of Jill and Gayle, there is a shirt that Gayle is wearing that is the same shirt Jill is wearing in other pictures. Pictures were taken after Jill had lost quite a bit of weight.
Mrs. Thompson thank you for your reply. I would have to look again but it was something I think I read recently in the police reports that they asked people at the Home but no one remember seeing them. Looking at my notes the only two house parents the police talked to between July 15 and November 29 were Debbie Sapp that came into the police station with Lisa Kader July 19 and Patsy Lyles on November 29 after they had talked to Dana Miller, the girl that was in the Big Sister program at Baylor and told them whom was Jill’s room mate, very strange they didn’t have that information until that time. And the police talked to the counselor Mary Bellheimer a number of times. The girls they questioned were Ginger Yoby, supposedly a close friend to Jill and the girl that was expecting to see Jill on the 13th, they talked to her a couple times and she stated she did not see her. The roommate Angie Rhoden was also asked on November 29 and hadn’t seen her. Mentioning the picture with Gayle wearing the shirt was exactly where I was going with this. If Jill was planning to stop by the Home to collect her belongings and did not why? Maybe when she got to Waco she found out the girl that had her stuff wasn’t at the home at that time, that girl could have been Gayle Kelly and if Jill heard this where did she get this info, Muneer Deeb?
Where she got the info is a question that has no accurate answer. She could have talked to any number of people including Kenneth Franks. Knowing Jill, she would have called Ken as soon as she got to Waco.
Mrs. Thompson I have actually put a lot of thought about Jill contacting Kenneth much earlier than around 7pm, it would make sense and I would wonder if they had made plans before hand, maybe Sunday night or Monday, I guess we will never know. I know the police checked Jill’s family’s phone bill looking for toll calls but did they check Mr. Franks? Jill’s mother said Ken had called one time Sunday night but Jill was out and he said he would call back at 8. And with the information the police obtained from Pat Torres, Bobby Brim and Michele Schillings it looks like Kenneth wasn’t aware that Jill was in town or that he was planning to get up with her until sometime around 7pm. Pat said Ken called him between 6pm and 6:30pm and asked Pat if he wanted to hang out after he got off work, no mention of the girls. Between 7pm and 7:30pm Kenneth called Bobby and asked him if he could get a ride to the park to meet the girls. Michelle said she had plans to see Kenneth that evening but he called her about 7:30pm and told her he had to change plans because he had some friends that had come to town that he was going out with.
Pat picked up Kenneth from summer school that day around noon, Kenneth didn’t say anything about getting up with Jill at that time. Pat let Kenneth use his bike that day and Kenneth hung out with Wilson Walker most of the day. Again he never mentioned anything about getting up with the girls to him. The only thing Kenneth told Wilson was; he was suppose to be home by 5pm. Wilson stated it was well after 5pm when Kenneth told him this, he stated it was between 8pm and 8:30pm, we know that time can’t be right. If we put all those accounts together from the people that were with and talked to Kenneth between the time he left summer school until he left home that evening, I feel it’s safe to say this is the one time the police were able to get a concrete time frame and what transpired.
We were always told that Gayle didn’t really like Jill very much. She said she thought Jill was a spoiled, rich girl and she could go home to visit her family almost every weekend. The two girls had totally different personalities…..they evidently did get along better after Jill had been there a while.
The relationship between Jill and Gayle that’s always going to be a difficult subject. One of the things I question that the police didn’t do and I know hindsight is 20/20, but at some point the police had to realize that the Methodist Home was connected to this case somehow. They would talk to many of the kids that lived there, especially from the Perkins unit. I wonder why they never just went to the Methodist Home and the Perkins unit and talked to the girls together at one time. To understand the dynamics of any group you have to observe that group together. There’s going to be the one that is the leader or the dominate personality, you have the followers and then you have the quiet ones that don’t say much or anything. You put that group together read the body language the, get a feel for the personalities and then talk to each person individually, usually different stories develop outside the group. Then you bring the group back together and address what conflicting issues arise when they were talked to individually. I don’t know how many girls were on the Perkins unit at one time, the Methodist Home houses about 200 kids at one time I would guess they try to keep the female/male ratio pretty close to 50% but I don’t know how many units there are. Look at all the girls from the Home and mostly if not all from the Perkins unit that became involved in this case one way or the other either talking to the police or testifying or being a victim. Jill, Gayle, Patti Deis, Lisa Kader, Faye Pearson, Rhonda Evans, Angie Rhoden, Ginger Yoby, Christine Hart, Laura Madderax, Dolores Perez and Patty McNutt. Some of those girls testified for the state others testified for the defense. Getting those girls together, especially when most of them were still on the Perkins unit and questioning them together and see what stories would have developed would have been very telling I would imagine.
I know Dolores Perez testified that Jill and Gayle didn’t get along and that Gayle had said some deplorable things about Jill after her murder, but how reliable was Dolores and what was the relationship between Dolores and Gayle? Dolores also testified she would do anything for Muneer Deeb and there were questions about her character, ditto with Patty McNutt at least in my view. Lou Booker, the supervisor at Fort Fisher, told Sgt. Baier that sometimes Jill and Gayle were the best of friends and at other times it seemed they couldn’t stand each other. Once the police found out that Jill and Gayle worked together, something that looks like Gayle did not inform them about, she would tell them that she (Gayle) told Jill that she was running away, leaving from Fort Fisher and not returning to the Home and asked Jill not to say anything and it looks like Jill kept that secret, as things have been told to this point this would have been the last time the two girls would have seen each other. So it would seem at that time Jill and Gayle trusted each other to the point they kept secrets.
I would guess their relationship was like most typical teenage girls but they lived in a not so typical world. There was the sense of competition maybe a little jealousy and some selfishness which may have been magnified a little bit in Gayle due to her circumstances and that was their biggest difference Jill had a loving and caring family that was lacking in Gayle’s life. Jill could turn to her family for her wants and needs, Gayle had no one and we can see in her behavior she got whatever she could from whomever she could however she could, she didn’t have a mommy or daddy or aunt she could go to. One thing that gets totally forgotten in all this is Gayle’s younger sister, she was there at the Methodist Home also, Gayle had no problem running away and leaving or even abandoning her younger sister like her mother in death and her father when he remarried had done to her. Gayle was looking out for number one, anyone no matter their closeness or feelings would have a very difficult time dealing with that. One would have to ask how far could that have gone? Sorry really no answers or questions there just observations but things that are such an intricate part of this sad tragedy.
Though I didn’t really ask any questions in my last post I still have plenty. Mrs. Thompson and I must say right from the start I don’t even know how to ask about this, it will be like all over the place but there are many questions there. What are your thoughts or feelings about the mysterious Robert and maybe some kind of connection to Fort Worth in general? I know you are aware of the story, if I’m not mistaken the story came from the Waxahachie police and made it’s way to the Waco police. The gist of the story coming out of Fort Worth was some mexican guy named Robert killed Jill because she left the Methodist house and stopped seeing him. I know the police got a picture of a mexican guy with Jill they thought was this Robert, they took it around and found out that guy was a Richard Lopez. When the police asked Mary Bellheimer about any Roberts from the Home she said she was aware of only two Roberts, one Robert Torres that had gotten one of the girls pregnant and the other was Robert Menchaca whom had harbored run away girls from the Home. House parent Patsy Lyles would also say she only knew of two Roberts. She mentioned Menchaca and then another Robert that had left the Home a number of years prior to all this.
Now the story from Fort Worth may just sound like some good rumors but as with most rumors there are enough details to give an air of truth. Rumors can start as being totally true but as they spread only bits and pieces of the truth remain. Look at two things that came out of that story from Fort Worth. First they knew Jill had just left the Methodist Home which was true, to be fair I guess they could have read that in the papers that seemed to be well known that the victims had a connection to the Methodist Home. The second thing though not true there is something to it. They said this Robert worked at the El Chino Restaurant which he did not but the girls had gone to that restaurant that night, Did some one confuse they may have met Robert at the restaurant with Robert working at the restaurant?
The police asked Gayle Kelly about a Robert of Mexican decent that Jill may have been seeing, she gave the name Robert De La Rosa. Gayle said Jill was seeing him on the sly because he was older than the age allowed for the girls to date and that she had never met him but Jill told her he always had a lot of dope. Renelle told police Jill was seeing a Mexican guy but didn’t know his name. Apparently the police got a picture of Menchaca, they showed this to Angie Rhoden but she said she had never seen him before. Kind of strange they asked Angie about this guy knowing the information they had on this guy was that he was harboring runaways, they didn’t ask Rhonda the girl Jill had run away with.
From the police reports we know Jill stayed at Bobby Brem’s at least some of the time she ran away and we also see Kenneth got into a fight with a subject about that time and/or the night of July 13, Ken Adkinsson told police Ken had gotten into a fight with a subject named Torres. Mike Sutton told police Ken got into a fight with a Tony he would change that later to a Bobby. The report says that would be Bobby Brown but that might be a mistake and the name was suppose to be Bobby Brem or maybe just a Bobby(Robert). The most telling info Mike Sutton gave them was the plate numbers on the car this Bobby had, which they found was registered with the same address as Bobby Brem (Hence my thought about the mistake in the report). Sutton would also say this fight took place back in December, could it have been January, the time Jill had run away? A fight with some one either named Robert or Torres that was living at Bobby Brem’s where Jill was hiding out?
And how or why did this story come out of Fort Worth? Again questioning Gayle Kelly’s timeline, she said when she ran away she stayed with friends from Fort Worth. There was plenty of talk about a drug deal. The morning after the murders David Spence and Clifford Oliver planned to go to Fort Worth to make a good deal on some crank. Anthony Melendez said he returned to Waco to get drugs. Clifford Oliver and Tim Childers both testified David and Clifford were shooting up crank that night. Clifford’s car was a silver Pontiac, people told police they saw a silver car parked next to the pinto and talking to the girls. Clifford Oliver’s car was left at Midway Park, Mike McQueen and Karen Hoskins both told police they saw the Pinto and the blonde hair girl driving, either looking for some one or waiting for some one. Ronald Robinson told police he saw the Pinto coming into Koehne park after 11pm and that a guy got out and was picked up by some one in a blue Duster.
Jill’s parents told police that Jill supposedly had met a new speed freak in Waco. Gayle said Kenneth was planning to make some big deal and come into some money. Kenneth wouldn’t give her the name but told her she knew the person and that he had returned to Waco recently. Clifford Oliver had just returned to Waco a few months before the murders. Did Gayle know Clifford Oliver? We know Christine Juhl did. She would testify she recognized his voice when he came to their apartment that night, if you can recognize some one’s voice I think that would show some familiarity. Clifford’s car was vandalized that night, why was it just a random act? And lets not forget Mr. Franks was at Midway Park for a few hours the night of July 13 but could not give any information about that car(Clifford’s). I could go on but I think I’m getting a little off track.
Mrs Thompson do you have any valuable insight or thoughts that you could or would share?
Not sure if any of my insights are of value, however I do know Jill Mentioned a “Robert” in some letters. She said that he played football . I don’t know if she meant high school football. In another letter she mentioned “we need to go by *Mr R’s* on the way to…(wherever they were going)…….I will try to remember more detail on Ft Worth.
Mrs. Thompson any and all information and insights are important and valuable, especially something personal like letters, actually something I never thought of. In today’s world we do everything with computers but back in the 80’s everybody didn’t have computers or the internet, they corresponded by hand written letters. Letters that could shed light on some missed piece that was over looked or never seen before. When this case was suspended in the beginning of September 82 there were a lot of things that were just left hanging, no follow ups, no conclusions and being in a state of suspension many things can’t be ruled out
Never thinking about letters before, now I have questions about those. I guess these letters were written by Jill while she was still at the Methodist Home writing her friends back in Waxahachie or visa versa? You mentioned Jill saying in one letter “We need to go by Mr. R’s”, was that letter written to Raylene? And if so when? If not whom was she writing to and did any police officer ever talk to this person? That one sentence from just one letter tells me a couple things. Though this unknown Robert supposedly had some connection to the Methodist Home and the police did ask people from the Home about him, maybe Jill’s friend in Waxahachie knew more about him. The other thing this sentence points out and that’s depending on when it was written Jill was making plans with someone to travel somewhere, Waco? With Raylene? Jill’s mother said the girls didn’t make plans to return to Waco until Sunday night or Monday morning but Ginger Yoby said Jill told her she would be returning next week with Raylene when Jill went to Waco on July 10.
Seeing Jill write “go by Mr. R’s”, Texas Ranger Bill Gunn received information that two guys were suppose to follow Jill and Raylene to Waco, these two subjects were Lynn Martinez and Ricky Threet and they lived in Ennis. I don’t know if the police ever talked to Ricky Threet, they couldn’t find him when they originally looked for him. So we don’t know when when he met either of the girls. Lynn told police he met Raylene and Renelle on July 4 at the lake and met Jill the next day. Lynn states Ricky wasn’t there. Lynn also said that he and Ricky were riding around with Raylene, Renelle and a girl he only knew by Dee Monday night and that Raylene told them she was going to Waco with Jill the next day. The report doesn’t state if Lynn said one way or the other if he and Ricky were planning to follow the girls.
It may be nothing at all but was any of this information checked out or followed up, especially information the police obtained after September 3?
My question for the day; did the Waco police ever investigate the two break-ins at Patti Deis’ apartment?
Det. Salinas apparently thought Patti had some information about the murders, in his report of July 26 he writes, “This Patti Dies is suppose to be witness or know some information in reference to these murders. However she is not talking, did try to talk to her again in reference to this. However she would not volunteer any further information. This case made on the burglary on 7-23-82, has been referred to this case”. This was the second break-in and Patti called Det, Salinas on July 23 to report it but did not come into the police station to discuss the matter. Did any officer go to the apartment to check it out?
Det. Nicoletti and Texas Ranger Joe Wiley saw the apartment after the first break-in of July 20. They saw the blood that dripped down from where the window was broken to the sidewalk of the apartment below. Did anyone try to collect any samples of this blood? They saw the apartment was ransacked, that the knives were lined up on the kitchen counter and the note left. Did they ever dust for fingerprints or compare the writing on the note to anyone?
Strange thing I have noticed, it appears Det. Salinas never equated Patti’s connection to this case was because Gayle Kelly stayed with her, even though all the information the investigators had obtained, as early as July 15, was Gayle Kelly was very close to Kenneth Franks. Pat Torres, Bobby Brem and Donnie Culp all mentioned Gayle Kelly when they came to the station at 2pm on July 15. Patti was mentioned but none of the boys new her last name, Torres new she lived at the Northwood apartments again probably because Gayle was staying there and Kenneth had stayed there some nights while she was staying there, again many questions here, On the morning of July 14 when Mr. Franks couldn’t find the kids and the police told him maybe he should check with some of Kenneth’s friends to see if he stayed with any of them Torres told him to check at Patti’s at the Northwood apartments. That tells me Mr. Franks did not know Patti at that point.
Also on July 15 when Officer Porterfield went to the Methodist Home Mary Bellheimer mentioned Gayle Kelly stating she and Kenneth dated after Jill and Kenneth had broken up. Remember this was all before Tab Harper’s name kept coming up. The police wouldn’t start receiving calls about him until the next day (July 16). By the afternoon of July 15 everybody that knew Kenneth Franks was mentioning Gayle Kelly and the only reason Patti was mentioned was because Gayle stayed with her but Salinas puts his focus on talking to Patti, I would think Gayle Kelly would have been the point of focus at that point.
Another interesting thing about the first break-in, it happened the same night Christine Juhl left David Spence. She would testify she and David got into a fight the night of July 19 and she left, returned the next day July 20 to collect her things and that was the last time she was at the apartment. Patti’s apartment was broken into between 11pm July 19 when Gayle Kelly was at work and 7am July 20 when she returned. Is there a connection?
In my earlier post I said I had many questions about Kenneth staying at Patti’s apartment, again this goes towards Mr. Franks not being honest with the police and Gayle Kelly’s timeline. Mr. Franks told police there were no problems at home between he and Kenneth and that it was unlike Kenneth to go out and not return home. Others told the police quite the opposite. Pat Torres said Kenneth stayed at his house or they stayed out all night at the park. Gayle Kelly stated she and Kenneth also stayed out all night at the park and had spent the night at Patti’s. One could argue just because Kenneth spent nights out with friends doesn’t show there were any problems at home. But there was at least one other person Kenneth stayed with that summer; Danny McSpaden. McSpaden would tell police Kenneth stayed at this apartment, which was also at the Northwood apartments, for a couple nights in June because Kenneth couldn’t go home. McSpaden said Kenneth never gave him any reason he couldn’t go home. Danny Sizemore also stayed at McSpaden’s apartment at this time, Sizemore’s girlfriend, Joy Thrasher also had an apartment at Northwood, why didn’t Kenneth and Donnie just stay at her place? Why didn’t Kenneth just stay at Patti’s, something we know he would do. I think the answer is he didn’t stay at Patti’s those nights he stayed at Danny’s was because Gayle wasn’t there, where was she? Maybe this was when she returned to the Methodist Home? Though this was June, she said she returned to the Methodist Home the Monday after July 4, which would have been July 5, Either way Kenneth Franks was crashing from place to place that summer, doesn’t sound like everything was kosher at home to me.
It is my thinking that back in that time period, there were many instances where parents were still saying, “No, MY CHILD WOULD NEVER DO THAT !!!” With our world becoming so much more liberal, we tend to realize there isn’t stigma attached to the crazy things our young people do and say. I always felt it was much better to tell the truth about things if you expect to know the “real” story.
Therefore, I understand the actions of those parents even though I do not agree with them.
Now, as far as Gayle’s timeline, I personally have a hard time with all of her stories and answers to questioning.
Mrs. Thompson, thank you again for taking the time to reply. This may be totally judgmental on my part but with Mr. Franks being gay I would think he had liberal leanings. What I question is not that Mr. Franks was hiding any of Kenneth’s behavior but his own or how things were during the time leading up to the murders, it just doesn’t make sense or add up to me. Again my own feelings are when some one is not truthful it’s because they are hiding something, what was Mr. Franks trying to hide. Was it that he was gay and his son had a problem with it? That’s difficult to believe because so many other people knew this, Mr. Franks had to know this was going to come to light. But if you look at the police reports when they are referring to Kenneth King they call him a roommate, somewhat skirting the issue. Even in Mr. Stowers’ book he avoids the issue actually he makes it sound like Mr. Franks was a womanizer he never mentions Mr. Franks was gay. I don’t want to put too much emphasis on his sexual preference but I don’t think it can be totally ignored either, it caused a strain in their relationship and Mr. Franks was very dishonest about it, I don’t think it had anything to do with trying to hide anything Kenneth was doing.
The selling of the boat, Mr. Franks told police he did it just because he didn’t have time to use it, like Kenneth didn’t have a problem with it. Gayle Kelly and either Donna Olsen or Mary Padillia if not both girls hinted that Kenneth was not happy about it. Then the police found that Kenneth Franks had gotten a ticket out on the lake water skiing, something Mr. Franks never told them. Also remember Bobby Brem couldn’t go out with Kenneth that night because they had taken Bobby’s parent’s boat out that July 4 without permission and Bobby was grounded. Mr. Franks said he was unaware of this, was he also unaware Kenneth had gotten a ticket? Or is it possible that Mr. Franks knew about this and this had something to do with him selling the boat and if so why not tell the police the truth?
Remember what Gayle Kelly told police when she first talked to police on July 20; she said Mr. Franks called her, Mr. Franks said he went to the apartment, the morning of July 14 and made the comment he hoped Kenneth didn’t get what he deserved, Gayle did say he was being sarcastic but she didn’t understand what he meant by that statement. Either way that’s a very strange statement from some one that’s suppose to be so distressed over not being able to find his son. Gayle also told police Kenneth King didn’t get along with Kenneth Frank and his friends and Kenneth Franks had a hard time with his father being gay. Danny McSpaden told police once he along with Danny Sizemore stopped by to see Kenneth Franks, he wasn’t home but Mr. Franks invited them in, once inside Mr. Franks came on to them. I will just throw this out there; that sounds a lot like some of the same actions as Robert Freuh. And it was these same two boys Kenneth Franks stayed with that June when he couldn’t return home. Mrs. Thompson I know we can’t make definite conclusions about this but there are a couple things that are rather evident. A least a few of Kenneth Franks friends; Gayle Kelly, Danny McSpaden and Donnie Sizemore knew Mr. Franks was gay and that Kenneth had a problem with it and when he couldn’t go home or he was having problems at home these were the same people he turned to and stayed with. Mr Franks told police it wasn’t like Kenneth not to come home we know that wasn’t true, I would also guess when Kenneth didn’t go home Mr. Franks didn’t know where he went. Why did Mr. Franks go hang out at Midway Park that night when he knew Kenneth and the girls were going out to the lake and if Mr. Franks was out there until about midnight why did he think to go check there later in the night to try and find the kids?
One other thing I find troubling with what Mr. Franks said was when he told John Ashley that the bodies were discovered where he use to go camping and this was right after he told, again either Donna Olsen or Mary Padilla, sorry I keep getting those two girls mixed up, that he didn’t know where the bodies were discovered. One thing I think we can be pretty sure about is whomever did this they had to be familiar with Speegleville Park. Rather the murders took place there or not, they had to know where the secluded areas were, they had to know how do get in and out without going through the gates if necessary and if they did this after dark you would think they would have had to do some of this without lights on.
And one final thing on Mr Franks, something I haven’t even touched on because I’m still trying to put everything together I can find on this and this is the Gutierrez brothers and their car. I guess I should get everything straight like the names before I try to get into this but the guy that ran the pool hall where Kenneth met the Gutierrez brothers and I would guess Clifford Oliver told the police that Kenneth was going to buy their car, I can’t remember the type of car but apparently the Gutierrez brothers had done a nice job old it and it was a nice ride, all I can remember at this time was that it was green. The police asked Mr. Franks about it and he told them Kenneth was going to buy the car but that they car was parked at their house for some time and while it was there Mr. Franks took pictures of the car and maybe some video, I could be mistaken about the video. James Gutierrez told police that he and his brother Terry had met Kenneth only a couple weeks prior to the murders and only had talked to him a couple of times. If they didn’t know each other that well and Kenneth wasn’t trying to buy the car why was it parked at the Frank’s home and why was Mr. Franks taking pictures of it? Terry Gutierrez took off with Clifford Oliver to California when things are getting hot for him in Waco and it was the Gutierrez brother that tried to help Clifford with the insurance scam. Then there was the first statement to police from Ronald Robinson. Mr. Robinson was interviewed a couple times by the police, he seemed believable but his story didn’t match up what other people had said. Robinson said he saw the Pinto coming into Koehne Park between 1am and 1:30am and a guy was driving, the guy got out and a green car that was suped-up came flying in right behind the pinto and picked up the guy driving the pinto. Then a black Cadillac drove in and parked behind the Pinto a couple minutes later. Robinson knew whom was driving the Cadillac because that car pulled up to their car and talked to them, it was Robert Freuh. The second time Robinson talked to police the green suped-up car became a blue Duster just like the car he was in. Changing stories???
There’s a mosaic of characters in any case but the complex web of connections in this case I find unique maybe even troubling and maybe the truth even more so and that’s why we get a mistaken identity motive, those connections never need to be made.
Mrs. Thompson you are absolutely correct about understanding people associated with this case, I will never know these people, doesn’t matter how much I read or how many times, the book, the police reports, the testimony, it can only give me a glimpse of the people involved. You can apply basic human behavior to what you read, though that may not be accurate. In particular to Gayle Kelly you do see a very clear pattern and really it is something very easy to understand, not trying to say yes I know her but in her dealings with the police it is obvious.
During the investigation from July 14 until Simons left the Waco PD sometime in October Gayle Kelly never gave the police any information on her own accord. If they had information and they confronted her with it she would elaborate. Simply it has to do with trust, in her world she knew better than to trust people no matter whom they were she didn’t trust too many people if any at all truly, the only time she was going to open up is if she felt it was in her best interest. When she talked to police on July 20 they never mentioned Muneer Deeb nor did she, the names of Rebecca DesMarias and Tab Harper came up and though the report doesn’t clearly state so Nicoletti probably asked her about these people, this was at the time when he and Salinas were still hot on this trail. This is just another example of some of the officers not being clear and precise in their reports, just as the report doesn’t say anything about Nicoletti and Gayle talking about the number of stab wounds but when she talked to Simons and Baier she told them that Nicoletti had given her those details. Compared to Baier, whom wrote very good reports, when he talked to Lou Booker at Fort Fisher in his report Baier clearly states that Lou Booker brought up Muneer Deeb without being asked. And just as Gayle never mentioned Muneer Deeb until asked by Baier and Simons September the 12, she didn’t tell them that she worked at Fort Fisher with Jill and that Muneer Deeb had been out there to visit her a number of times until Baier talked to Lou Booker and then went to see Gayle a second time and asked her about it. Once they asked her about it that is when she informed them that she told Jill she was running away. And then when they told her that they were seriously looking at Muner Deeb as being responsible for these murders she called Simons that night and told them Deeb had admitted to her he had committed the murders. She never mentioned the insurance policy until she was asked, I do believe she was being honest about that, she just never saw any importance in it because she thought she was signing something for workers comp. The only thing about that is she signed that on June 22 which tells me she was still planning to work for Deeb at that time and if it was true that the plan of her working for Deeb ended when he found Gayle and Kenneth together and she moved out it doesn’t match the rest of her stated timeline.
If someone anyone not just Gayle Kelly doesn’t give information out freely, then one has to ask what other information could she have but never came out because no one asked her. Also her calling Simons and telling him Deeb had admitted to her killing the kids, if she was only giving information out that benefited her, what benefit was she getting turning in Deeb at that time? Deeb had made comments that would make it seem he had some involvement or first hand knowledge of the murders to Gayle before and she never thought about telling the police before but once she found out he was their prime suspect, well at least Simons’ and Baier’ she reported those comments. Deeb would say he was joking when he made all these comments. Even Kareem Qusem, Deeb’s partner, testified Deeb and David talked about killing Gayle many times and at first he thought Deeb was joking but after awhile he wasn’t so sure Deeb was just joking.
Mrs Thompson going back to not knowing these people, here is my take on Deeb from the little glimpse I have gotten. It seems to me Deeb was somewhat socially awkward, maybe had something to do with the cultural difference but the way he would hide that awkwardness is say he was joking. It was like a defense mechanism anytime he said anything that offended people or was inappropriate his response was always “I was joking”. So it was that night when Gayle called Simons but what made her feel different that night than the other nights when he made similar comments? Why or how did she feel this was going to benefit her to report it this time? Maybe once Simons and Baier told her Deeb was suspect number one she realized they were getting close to the truth, whatever it was, and knew it would be in her best interest to give her version of the truth first? If that was the case that would point towards her knowing a lot more than she ever told.
Another aspect of the relationship between Gayle Kelly and Muneer Deeb that leaves questions. Deeb had a history of intimidating the girls he liked or became infatuated with and didn’t get his way, which seems was all the time. The girls would just keep taking from him and he got nothing in return and finally he would get mad. He stalked Kebana Reed until she finally called the police on him and had him arrested. He threatening Dana Diamond telling her he was going to blow up her apartment with her and her boyfriend in it if she wouldn’t break up with her boyfriend, that way if he (Deeb) couldn’t have her no one could. And though everybody said Muneer loved or was obsessed with Gayle and she treated him just like the other girls did, there are no reports he responded with threats as he did with the other girls. And though it seems they were on the outs during the time of the murders by the time Simons and Baier talked to Gayle in September Deeb was spending the night at the apartment with Gayle and Patti.
In regards to Gayle’s timeline, I know in the testimony it is stated she was in the Methodist Home during the murders or July 5 through July 23, both the State and the Defense went with this it helped both their cases, well in the case of the defense for Muneer Deeb. But there are other things that point to that not being true. The two break ins at Patti’s, Gayle went to work the night of July 19 at IHOP at 11pm. Gayle said the last time she saw Kenneth was a Monday about a week before his murder. She adds he came to the Home but wasn’t allowed on the grounds because he didn’t have a pass. I’ve read where many people got on the grounds without a pass including David Spence. And if she returned July 5 which was a Monday the only other Monday there was before the murders was July 12,the day before the murders. So if she remember she returned on July 5 and that was the last day she saw Kenneth wouldn’t she have remembered the last day she saw him was the first day she returned? And what time did she return that day and did the Methodist Home allow her just to wander around the grounds right after she returned from running away?
No later than the morning of July 15 if Mr. Franks hadn’t told them before that the police were told Gayle Kelly lived at the Methodist Home, they were looking to talk to her, if she was at the Home why not just go there and talk to her. Nicoletti would on July 23, the day Gayle would say was her last day there but if she was at Patti’s apartment during the break ins which were July 20 and July 23 she wasn’t at the Home those nights. This might be the weakest argument against her being at the Home because the police had a hard time trying to make contact with a number of girls at the Home for some reason that just doesn’t make sense to me. The Methodist Home was a controlled environment if the police wanted to talk to some one all they had to do was set it up, call in and say I want to talk to this person or that person at so and so time. But in many of the reports it shows they just couldn’t do that. Holstien writes in one report she couldn’t contact Laura Madderax, I never know if they were ever able to talk to her. The police never found out whom was Jill’s room mate until November. So maybe it is possible the police were told Gayle was at the Home and they never checked even though they were looking for her and wanted to talk for her.
Then the most compelling piece of information that conflicts with Gayle being at the Home in accordance with her statements is John Henderson.. And as with many things with this case there are questions about this. A subject called the police by the name of Terry Barrett on July 26 and told the police he was at the park July 13 about 6:30pm and he saw the Pinto and the girls talking to a guy in a blue chevy and he saw a beat up white van. Barrett said he parked between the Pinto and the van. Barrett would call back about 20 minutes later and told police he had found out John Henderson was also at the park that night and the police should talk to him. Salinas talks to Henderson on July 27 and Henderson tells him he was at the park and he saw Kenneth, he knew Kenneth, and the two girls in the Pinto and mentions seeing the same van that Barrett had seen. Henderson said he had gone to the park about 7pm with his friend Kenny Young. Salinas Talked to Kenny Young and Young tells the same story. Then on September 3 the day Salinas states the case is being suspended, actually in the same report, he states the only thing he has left to do at that point is talk to a witness in reference to “her” not telling the complete truth when he talked to her the first time on July 27. Salinas planned to talk to this person on September 5. Again not being clear we’re not sure whom he is talking about and taking into consideration he was suspending the case you would think that information would be important to some one if they decided to look over the case and see if they could find anything. There are a couple clues he says her and he says he first talked to her on July 27. Whom did Salinas talk to on July 27? There were many people he talked to so any number of them could have changed their stories, I’ve never seen a report for September 5, so did anyone ever come in that day? But in his report of November 30 Salinas writes he talks to John Henderson again, though Henderson is not a her Salinas did first talk to him on July 27. Salinas’ language as usual is a little confusing. he states John Henderson had been interviewed prior about seeing the Victims at the park July 13 but this is in reference to John seeing Kenneth in the park Monday July 12 and seeing Kenneth get in a light colored Trans-Am or Z28 with two girls. “AT THIS TIME” Henderson states he was not at the park that night. Which night is Salinas talking about John not being there July 12 or July 13? Where did Salinas get the information about the night of July 12. Here’s my take on it and I could be wrong again. When Salinas writes “at this time”, that’s why I put it in all capitals, he’s telling us what Henderson is saying “NOW” at this time November 19 is different from what he said “THEN” July 27. Salinas was hearing a lot of changing stories during the investigation, so when he was writing his reports he was writing things he understood what he knew not thinking about other people looking at his reports and questioning what he wrote and what he meant. The light colored car in the park Monday July 12 in question could be Patti Deis’ and the two girls that were seen with Kenneth that night could be Gayle and Patti. That could have been the Monday which was the last time Gayle saw Kenneth. That would really put into question where she was Juky 13.
I know I have been over all that before but it just sticks with me. If people are being dishonest what can you believe?
Your last sentence says it all ! I have been “mislead” so many times in the past 34 years I will admit that I depend on intuition and that old “gut feeling” in many instances. Wouldn’t it be great if some of the folks who participated in giving info and testifying back then, would step forward with their current thoughts and reactions since the era of DNA and Forensic Science has become more reliable??…….Just sayin…..
Careless Whispers or Contrived Convictions 
Fire away…
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Fire away !!!
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Fire away !!
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Hello Mrs. Thompson, thank you for your reply and sorry I haven’t been able to respond earlier. I know you are Jill Montgomery’s aunt and I have talked to you before, actually the last time I contacted you was probably over a year ago after the Michael Hall article in Texas Monthly had started making the rounds on the internet, I sent you a message on Facebook. As then and as it remains now as you can obviously see I still have many questions. Having said that I really don’t know where to start and I might ask things that have already been gone over to complete exhaustion, may I apologize in advance if this is the case.
I guess the first question I have about this case has to do with Terry “Tab” Harper or more precisely his viability as a real suspect. Anyone that knows anything about this case has heard his name repeatedly, over and over. So I guess my question is this, we know that a number of officers were at odds with the direction of the investigation Sgt. Simons conducted and the subsequent arrest and convictions of Spence, Deeb and the Melendez brothers, Lt. Horton and Det. Salinas among them. But it was Det. Salinas and Det. Nicoletti that brought “Tab” Harper in, interrogated him, and released him with the belief that he wasn’t responsible for the murders. I may be mistaken about this but I think I read somewhere the reason they thought this was because Harper had a rock solid alibi. Is this true and did any of the officers that were investigating this case ever tell you one way or the other what they found, thought or felt about Harper???
Hope to hear from you soon, I still have other countless questions. Thank you!!!
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What questions do you have. explain why you felt the need to start this page. I understand that you feel that the whole truth was not told but dont you feel that the family has had closure with the convictions and youre bringing up something that they have already come to terms with. Do you feel that the convicted are innocent ???
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There is no such thing as closure ! Especially when you feel the real killers were not charged. Time takes care of daily remembrance of graphic pictures and events during investigations, but time doesn’t erase the hole in your heart. God will be the final Judge and I am thankful for that.
If there is a possibility that the people convicted were not guilty, it should be so noted. And that is a possibility! !
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Mrs. Thompson, I know this is probably an unfair question and I can understand if I don’t get a reply. I know you have doubts about the convictions, as I do. I would have to admit mine are very slim and it’s hard to try to weigh that, what constitutes reasonable doubt? And knowing how hard it is for someone like me, someone without any vested interest, how much more immeasurably difficult it is for someone that is personally connected to the case. So I guess my question would be this; Are your feelings about these convictions are they more like just having doubts or more like you feel the wrong people were convicted? I know it’s nearly impossible to differentiate between the two especially for someone so close to the case but there is a difference. One would definitely have doubts when there are so many questions left unanswered as we sure have in this case, that’s one thing having doubts because you didn’t get all the answers but you still can be convinced of someone’s guilt without all the questions being answered. Or by not getting these answers do you question the guilt?
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Hey L.T. of coarse I can’t and won’t even try to speak for the families but I think you will see they have plenty of doubts and questions. The reason I decided to start this page was I wanted there to be a place where anybody could go and express their thoughts, feelings and opinions, whatever they may be as long as they are relevant to the case. Something I think has been missing and you see many other cases all over the internet.
For my own questions there are so many. I guess I would put it like this I’ve always doubted the mistaken identity theory even back when I first read Careless Whispers back in the 80’s, Great book, very intriguing story but still the case of mistaken identity just didn’t make sense or add up. As time has gone by and more information about the case has become available and appeals and re-trials that same feeling remains but now with even more questions. Now it’s not just the mistaken identity theory but why did the state decide to take that path anyway and when did this theory start to take shape?
The whole mistaken identity theory hinges on the fact that Muneer Deeb took an accidental death insurance policy out on Gayle Kelly or should I say that’s how it has come out over the years. Strange thing is Muneer Deeb was arrested for the murders the first time before the police knew about the insurance policy. What does that say? To me it looks like the mistaken identity theory only weakened their case, Why would they do that? What made them decide to make that choice. Muneer Deeb was openly hostile towards Kenneth Franks, made countless statements to this fact to multiple people. By making the case of mistaken identity it only diminishes that Kenneth Franks could have been the target.
Do I believe the wrong people were convicted? I still lean very heavily that the right people were convicted and if that is the case, Muneer Deeb got to walk free. I do have doubts, it was such a weak case and so many loose ends, that still exist to this day and anytime you have this you do have to question the convictions. The only thing is I haven’t seen anything strong enough to undo these convictions. There are many people out there that believe the wrong people were convicted and I guess they have information to support this and I just haven’t seen it. But with what I have seen I would question this as well.
I think some of it is just how we look at things, for instance many people have pushed the theory Terry “Tab” Harper was the person responsible for these murders and I ask why. He was a suspect early on and was released. The only thing that connected him to these murders were some stupid comments he made right after the murders and it came down to when he made those comments. Much was made about when he made these statements and the police spent a considerable amount of time tracking down that fact. What they found was he made those comments no earlier than 8pm the day the bodies were discovered. The people that still see Harper as the most likely suspect always point to the fact that the bodies weren’t discovered until approx. 6:30 and didn’t become public knowledge or make to news until after 9pm that night, which would show Harper knew about the murders before. But the people that push that theory miss one very important possibility one that I would guess the police figured out.
Anyone with a scanner could have heard about the discovery of the bodies as soon as there was talk about it over the police radios, which we know happened, that’s how many officers heard about it. You know my father was a state trooper, we had a scanner in our house, any policeman and fireman would have these scanners as would any number of citizens. That Harper could have had that information by 8p is not surprising nor incriminating. Also my father was a detective with the state police for awhile, he hated it, he went back to just being a patrolman. The reason he told me he hated being a detective so much was because there would be these detectives investigating some crime and when they would get an idea in their head it was like they would get tunnel vision and wouldn’t listen to any other opinions or take into count other evidence. I always have remembered that and that totally looks like what happened in this case. Different officers had different theories and then it became a war of office politics. In the end it only hurt the case and now that there are so many questions the mud slinging starts. I say let’s look at all the evidence all the officers collected. And when you do that I think there is a much more clear comprehensive case, not one without questions but one that’s much better than the prosecution presented. And with that I think they got the right guys.
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We are at a very critical time in some current proceedings. I will say at this time, I cannot communicate publicly with an unknown person.
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Well I guess so much for firing away!!!
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You know who you are talking to-do I not have that same right?????
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Sure you have the right but I don’t think there’s anything I can honestly do about that. You do know I am some one that has followed this case for a long time due to the exchanges we’ve had in the past. I take it that’s how you ended up here. You saw the comment I made last week on a post you made months ago, I just saw it last week. If I may you asked, “Didn’t anyone else care about finding the truth, if so get involved ask questions”. You know what my reply was, so here I am. Mrs. Thompson I’m not trying to push things one way or the other, I’m just an outside observer that would like to see the truth in this case whatever it is. The only way I can see this being done is by asking questions on the many aspects of this case that don’t add up but as you know finding the answers isn’t that simple. And you know better and certainly on a much more personal level the disappointments and frustrations with that. From the comments I’ve seen you make in the past it seems there have been many people that have said they have all the answers, they can prove everything and they make promises. Take a look at Mr. Dannen, what he’s down in Mexico, where U.S. authorities can’t get him, are we actually suppose to believe we are going to get the truth from him??? I keep hearing about DNA evidence, not trying to be stupid but what DNA evidence, if you read the police reports and the autopsies there was none found on the bodies. Read Jill’s autopsy, they did the body combing (look for foreign hairs) it clearly states NO FOREIGN HAIRS FOUND. The only things I’ve seen listed that were collected by law enforcement that could possibly contain useful DNA were the 2 beer cans found near the bodies, samples from David Spence’s car and if I remember correctly there were hairs found in the bindings (the strips of towel) that were used to tie the victims hands behind their backs. Mrs. Thompson all that DNA would be inconclusive in determining Anthony Melendez’s guilt or innocence. Just because those things won’t have his DNA in no way does it show that he didn’t take part in this crime. Just because you didn’t drop a hair somewhere doesn’t mean that you weren’t there. Again, I saw you make a comment about Mr. Dannen spending $30,000 for testing. This DNA, that has been around for like 15 years now, has been sent to California and now sits in Arkansas and there always seems to be some unbelievable reason that it just can’t come out. Sorry, but could the truth just be the DNA test haven’t given people the results they want because it can’t??? Mrs. Thompson I can understand if you can’t or don’t want to talk to me but I will still be here asking questions. The truth is out there, I hope we can find it before it’s too late, best wishes.
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Mr. Richard Franks told the police that Jill and Raylene picked up Kenneth approx. @ 9:00p.m, was he mistaken on the time? And did that influence the case? I would say there is ample information and evidence that it did. Why did the prosecution push the theory that the murders happened approx. at midnight when there was so much out there that pointed to the murders happening much earlier. Though I do have some doubts about the guilt of those that were eventually convicted, there’s is one thing that sticks out in my mind that shows their involvement. That would be the testimony of Anthony Melendez and in particular one exchange he had with Mr. Feazell.
There has been much made that Melendez changed his story a number of times, had to change his statements to match the facts. Some feel that shows that he’s innocent, he didn’t know the facts and that Feazell and Butler had to feed him the facts. Really should we be surprised that a rapist and murderer didn’t want to tell the whole truth, put as much distance between himself and the horrible acts he had committed by not coming clean with all the details? I would suggest reading his testimony. And isn’t it also a safe conclusion that Mr. Feazell and Mr. Butler in their chosen profession were use to dealing with these kind of people. They got what information they could get, tied up what loose ends they could or felt they needed, Hey Melendez was pleading guilty and admitting to taking part in this brutal and savage crime. I guess there are tapes of Anthony Melendez’s confession and some discussion with the D.A.s and there are some questionable statements on those tapes. Mr. Feazell has defended his actions saying things are being taken out of context. Is he being honest?
Did Mr. Feazell and Mr. Butler realize Mr. Melendez wasn’t going to freely give them all the information they needed and encouraged him into doing so by making misleading statements and if this was the case can you blame them. So what if they told Melendez that he might only do about 10 years if he cooperated? That says something about Melendez, he was looking out for his own interest. He was stupid to believe that, he was admitting to taking part in the murder of 3 teenagers and the rape of 2 teenage girls, really he thought he was only going to do about 10 years for all that? I guess that can be debated. We don’t like how the D.A.s went about getting his confession but to be fair look who they were dealing with. And that’s the same thing with using other inmates testimony to prosecute David Wayne Spence. I agree that was a terrible move, should be banned as it is in some states but Texas allows it, that’s something the state of Texas needs to reconsider. This policy surely gets abused as it did in this case, who do we blame? But let’s forget all the testimony of the jailhouse snitches, what put Anthony Melendez away was his own testimony his own words, so let’s look at those and as I said one exchange, one little piece of information he gave, I would think unintentionally, like a Freudian slip. He wasn’t being totally truthful telling his version of the story then there it was a statement that put it all together.
I’m referring to when Mr. Feazell asked about what time was it when they walked Jill Montgomery into the woods, his response, “it was starting to get dark”!!! I think Mr. Feazell was shocked by that answer, I don’t think he saw that one coming, you can tell by his reply to Melendez’s answer. Mr. Feazell’s next question like came out of left field it had no relevance, again remember the prosecution had been pushing the theory that the crime happened around midnight. Mr. Feazell asks Melendez was it really shady in this area, as if it was going to be any less dark at midnight!!! The time he had theorized it had happened. Even though there was so much that proved otherwise. The only thing I can find that supports that theory is that Mr. Franks told the police that Ken was picked up about 9pm. And no one can say Mr. Feazell or Mr. Butler feed this information to Melendez, they were still working the murders happened around midnight. That it happened earlier was Anthony Melendez’s own admission. And if we take that admission for what it is and put it against other information there is from witnesses and what little evidence there is I propose a clearer picture of what may have happened appears. Let’s look at that timeline.
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I think it’s safe to say that Jill and Raylene left Waxahachie to go to Waco around noon Tuesday July 13 and it takes about a hour and a half to get there. We know they went to Fort Fisher where Jill had worked, the lady she worked with told police that Jill and Raylene arrived around 2pm, that fits the timeline. That same lady also gave the police some other information, she told them that Gayle Kelly had also worked there at the same time Jill had and that she also witnessed Gayle, Jill and Muneer Deeb having a heated discussion about Kenneth Franks. That tells us 2 things; Muneer Deeb not only knew Gayle Kelly he also knew Jill Montgomery and he knew that Jill knew Kenneth Franks. She told the police Jill and Raylene didn’t stay long that day, they stated they were hungry and were going to get something to eat.
The next confirmed sighting we get is that Jill and Raylene went to the Piggly Wiggly to cash checks approx. @ 5pm. That leaves a 3 hour gap, I don’t know what they did in those 3 hours, all I would say is a lot can happen in 3 hours. Then we know Mr. Franks states the girls called from El Chino’s and come pick up Kenneth @ 9pm. Again was he right on the time? We need to look at the information and evidence the police obtained in the days after the bodies were found.
The bodies were discovered approx.@ 6:30pm Wednesday July 14, a justice of the peace arrived to the scene and pronounced death giving the estimated time of death between 9pm and Midnight the day before which would have been Tuesday July 13. That matches Mr. Franks statement that the girls picked up Ken around 9pm. The bodies are sent to Dallas for autopsies. In the conclusion of the medical examiner they conclude that death occurred approx. 20 hours before the bodies were discovered, that would put the time at approx. 10:30pm, again that fits. But then there’s the evidence they found that all 3 victims had eating about one hour before they were killed, if we believe Ken was picked up at 9 that would still put things pretty close to that time line. But if the kids were killed around midnight that wouldn’t fit, remember the prosecution’s explanation was the kids could have eaten sometime again after they got together. The autopsy was pretty clear about what they had eaten, Ken had eaten ground beef and french fries, which Mr. Franks confirmed, he had sent Ken to Whataburger earlier, again I would question his timing on things. Jill still had beans and ground beef in her stomach when the autopsy was performed and Raylene had green pepper and pimento remaining. Again this fits what Mr. Franks says, they called from a Mexican restaurant. So did all 3 kids eat the same thing they had eaten earlier later that night? I seriously doubt that. If not how can that fit? That’s when Mr. franks statement on the time becomes a problem but there is plenty of information that he was wrong.
Some of the first people the police talked to after the discovery of the bodies were friends of Kenneth Franks; Patrick Torres, Donnie Culp and Bobby Brem. Torres stated that Kenneth had called him at work @ approx 6pm and said nothing about he (Kenneth) planning to get up with the girls, actually Torres states that Kenneth wanted to get up with him after he got off work but Torres declined. Culp, whom was also at work with Torres confirms the call. That tells us at that time, 6pm. Ken hadn’t talked to the girls by then. Then Brem states Kenneth called him asking for a ride to Koehne Park to meet 2 girls. Brem says this happened approx @ 7;30pm. Brem also had to decline but this tells us that Jill had made contact with Ken by that time, it was between 6pm and 7:30. The statements of these 3 friends really doesn’t tell us much standing alone but when you put it up against what other people said that were in Koehne Park the night of July 13 it starts to add up.
People keep bringing up the name Terry “Tab” Harper like there was all this evidence or information that he was in the park that night and seen with the kids, most of that info was hearsay from sources that had gotten it 2nd hand, 3rd hand, 4th hand, that come to find out came from one source that would later admit he mixed up the day when he had talked to people. That’s suppose to be reliable to any degree? But you never hear those same people mention all the people that were at the park that say they saw the orange Pinto at the park, a few said they saw the kids and they all agree it was well before 9pm. There are so many of these statements in the police reports, I can’t or wouldn’t even try to recount each and every one. I would point out the statement from the Afro-American family that were parked right next to the Pinto. They remember the car, this family was there for a few hours and left around dark approx 9pm, the car was there but they didn’t see the kids at that time. AROUND DARK APPROX 9PM!!! What did Anthony Melendez say, “AROUND DARK”. Not around midnight. Can we condemn a man on one statement he made of coarse not but look at some of his other testimony.
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Anthony Melendez testified that he was working (painting) in Bryan Tuesday July 13 and decided to take off early around noon so he could return to Waco and buy drugs. In the course of the day he ran into David Spence, who asked Anthony if he wanted to go see his (Anthony’s) brother Gilbert. At some point they are driving down 15th Street and decide to get beer. Anthony doesn’t state what store they stopped at but look at what we know about this case, what store do you think they went to get beer if they were already on 15th Street? What did Gilbert Melendez say? He testified they went to the Rainbow Drive-In.
Now look at some of the comments Muneer Deeb made to people about the murders. Patty Pick, Willie Tompkins, Lisa Kader, Chrisna and Kebana Reed all made statements to the police in reference to things Deeb had said to them about the murders and I would add at different times and places. He had said that the girls had been in his store the day they were killed. Another time he states that he just missed out on making $20,000 because he had an insurance policy on a girl that was suppose to be with them that day, which we know was Gayle Kelly. Why would Muneer Deeb say that or maybe a better question is why did he think Gayle was going to be with Jill and Raylene. Is it possible that Jill, Raylene, Deeb, Spence and Gayle Kelly and maybe even Christine Juhl all ran into each other that day in the Rainbow Drive In only hours before the murders took place.
Anthony Melendez says they were on 15th Street when they stopped to get beer. He also states he stayed in the car, is that just another one of his attempts to distance himself from what really happened? Did something happen or was there something said in that store that put into motion the tragic events that would unfold later? And in Christine Juhl’s testimony she states that David would come in all the time and put the purchase of beer on her check. Then there was some discrepancy with her time card when the police tried to find out what hours she worked that day. She says she closed that night but could not remember if she worked a split shift or not and she remembered she opened the next morning. Maybe she doesn’t want to remember if she was there working at the store for a reason. Also remember a customer testified that she over heard Deeb and Christine arguing over money that Christine thought Deeb owed David. Anthony Melendez has said what he has to say about what happened, maybe some other people need to speak up, not only Christine but there was definitely something strange going on with Gayle Kelly at the time, being followed, the apartment she was staying in with Patty Deis was broken into and she was somewhat evasive and not totally forthcoming with information when she was questioned by police.
I put this out here just to show there are plenty of questions to go around. In our search for the truth and justice we have to look at all the information that is available, we just can’t look at one or two things that don’t add up and question those, we have to look at and evaluate everything that’s out there.
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This is a very interesting case..I hope that the truth will eventually come to the surface…
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Yes it is and as you know I follow many cases and I would have to say this one has always stuck out the most, so many questions such uncertainty and the only way we will ever be able to find the truth is to get answers to some of these questions but as you can see the difficulty in that and though this is the new and latest approach, the same obstacles have existed for decades if we are going to unlock the truth we must try all the keys that have been presented to us. Keep the discussion alive,
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And having said that I guess since I started this I should continue, even though it seems to be going nowhere and that’s the problem. We can ask all the questions we want but if we can’t get any answers where does that leave us? A few weeks ago I posted the question about Mr. Franks stated timeline and elaborated on that, that was just one question and what I would say was well within the realm of possibilities, remind you if David Spence and the Melendez brothers did not commit these murders some one else did and if we view the investigation suspect, as I think with the theory of mistaken identity it is obvious, what else did the investigators miss? My earlier question; what if Mr. Franks was wrong with his timeline of events, when did the teenagers leave his house? The way I posted that question I didn’t even question if it was by mistake or was it intentional?
Anyone knows that the police always look at the people closest to the victims first but in this case I really don’t see that, some might say there was no reason there was nothing to indicate Mr. Franks was hiding something. Looking over the police reports and other people’s statements I would have to disagree with that, remember the golf coach at the high school, not saying Mr. Franks had any involvement in the murders but he could be hiding something. Yes it could be that he being gay he didn’t want people, the police, digging into his personal life but by even accepting that line of thinking one would have to admit he was dishonest and what effect did that have on the case and how the case unfolded later and if Mr. Franks was willing to lie to protect his lifestyle to what degree was he willing to lie???
Other than Mr. Franks’ stating that the girls came to his house to pick up Kenneth and they left the house around 9 is there any other evidence to support that? I’ve never seen any. What about the other way, that is to say is there anything out there that could or would contradict Mr. Franks’ stated facts? I’ve already gone over the problem with his statement that the teens left at 9 so I’ll try not to trample all over that ground again but what about the simple statement that the girl’s came to the house to pick up Kenneth. On the surface there doesn’t see to be any reason to question that but again when you look at statements of others there are definitely questions.
I would start with the first statement of Bobby Brim when the police first brought him in to question him the day after the bodies were discovered. Bobby tells the police that Kenneth called him roughly between 7 and 7:30 and asked him for a ride to the park to meet 2 girls. That tells me the girls didn’t plan to pick up Kenneth, they planned to meet him at the park, so did they ever go to the house to pick him up? And if not why did Mr. Franks say they did? Was it just a honest mistake maybe he just assumed they came to pick him up, that would help explain why he was off on the timeline he just really didn’t know things. Or did he know something and didn’t want to share it for one reason or the other?
The statement of Bobby Brim cannot stand alone as Mr. Franks’ statement should not. All truths do not hold the same weight nor do all lies. So is there anything that can support either one of these conflicting statements? Again looking at some of the other statements Bobby’s account sounds much more likely. There were many people that came forward and told the police they saw the car and/or the kids. Again there are way too many statements to go into detail on every one. But there was one the police put a lot of value in, I can’t remember the girl’s name but she was in the park that evening and she was there with another guy that wasn’t her husband, that alone gave her statement a sense of truth, why would she risk exposing this illicit affair? Then she was hypnotized and under hypnotism she stated the same things, conclusion she was telling the truth. What did she say? She stated that she saw the orange Pinto with the girl driving many times driving back and forth, she would drive down by the lake and wait a few minutes then drive back up the hill and again wait for a few minutes, she repeated this a few times. The witnesses’ observation was the girl was either looking or waiting for some one. If we dismiss Mr. Franks’ statement it becomes obvious the girls were in the park, long before 9, waiting for Kenneth they never went to the house to pick him up.
If the girls did not pick up Kenneth how did he get out to the park? One of the possibilities won’t surprise many because he’s a favorite target , especially from those whom believe David Spence, Anthony and Gilbert Melendez are innocent, and when you look at everything a stronger case could be made against him more so than against Tab Harper. Of coarse I’m talking about the Reverend Robert Freuh. He was seen at the park by many people that night and at least one if not two stated they saw either a young man or Kenneth Franks in his car. The police questioned Rev. Freuh and he came off as dishonest, his story of when he was at the park did not match up with what they were told by multiple sources. First can we connect Kenneth Franks and Robert Freuh in any way? Actually that’s very easy they lived on the same street, Savannah Court. And when we look at the activities of the Reverend and look at Mr. Franks’ sexual preference can we see there may be something there that both men wanted to keep secret. Remember this was 1982, our sensibilities as a country have changed a lot since then when it comes to nontraditional relationships. And if they wanted to keep secrets I would have to ask how far were they willing to go to keep those secrets quiet? So I ask again was Mr. Franks dishonest and if he was were there other falsehoods in his statements to police officers?
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In the police report concerning Mr Franks…..he stated the time the girls picked him up was between 7-8:00. In court, he testified it was around 9:00. He told me personally that he watched the girls waiting for Ken to come out. They were checking their makeup, etc as young girls would do when about to see a boy they “liked”…………I am also familiar with questionable events concerning Rev Robert Frueh. He was seen at the park with Ken Franks in the car with him. It was still daylight at that time. Frueh did live directly behind Mr franks on Savannah Court. ……… very questionable things in my opinion.
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You are aware, I am sure, Richard Franks passed away this last year and Robert Freuh was murdered several years ago. From what I have been able to find out, there is reason to believe that both men knew more about the Lake Case than they divulged.
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Mrs. Thompson yes I was aware of the passing of both Mr. Franks and Mr. Freuh and yes I think both knew a lot more and that is kind of my point, I feel there are a number of people that know much more than they have told and they need to open up before they are gone and they take their knowledge and secrets with them. I know a lot of people believe in the innocence of Anthony Melendez and they are hearing the truth from him, I may be wrong but I have an extremely hard time with this, he had his chance to talk and he decided to say he took part in this horrendous crime. I personally just can’t get over that, we all have biases and I guess this is mine. Though he is professing his innocence now and has been for some time, that’s not what he was doing during the trials. Should I or anybody be shocked or surprised that a convict as been sitting in jail and maybe has finally realized he’s not getting out anytime soon nor does he deserve to be, so he starts changing his story and cries about how the system screwed him. Did Mr. Feazell mislead him into believing that he(Anthony Melendez) was going to get some sweet deal when it came to sentencing or possibility of parole? Maybe!!! But remember whom were talking about, Anthony Melendez had been involved in other violent crimes, I point to the incident committed against the Korn family in Corpus Cristri in 1979. I would have to ask what was he doing back on the street in 1982 in the first place??? And I would add, yes I’m one of those people whom is opposed to the death penalty and this is what has intrigued me about this case for so long, I know there are many parties out there that are trying to prove that an innocent man was executed and this case is giving them that opportunity and though I’m opposed to the death penalty isn’t it just as appalling that a guilty man walks free because there just wasn’t enough evidence to convict him, we may have that in this case as well with Muneer Deeb and there are parties out there that are pushing for the release of Anthony Melendez. I’m saying we just need to look at everything and maybe look at things that have never been addressed.
Mrs. Thompson I do have one question you may have the answer to, I know Reverend Freuh worked at a Baptist church I can’t remember the name and Mr. Franks was a youth counselor at a church. Do you know which churches both men would have been connected to?
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False confessions unfortunately happen all of the time bk and this is what I believe happened to Anthony and Gilbert. It usually happens to young, uneducated suspects that “fit” the crime.
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Hello Keek, surely no one could deny that false confessions happen and as I have posted earlier in my opinion the threat of the death penalty only increases though chances. I know many people feel the same as you that the Melendez brothers were/are innocent, actually I think that is the prevailing sentiment with those whom follow this case. You make the point that these false confessions happen to young suspects that are uneducated, a great point and one which I would agree with, but may I ask how are we judging the level of education and in this case in particular. David Spence was a drop out GED at best, I not sure about the Melendez brothers, so it’s easy to say hey those guys were uneducated but what about in terms of the workings of the legal system, all three were repeat offenders before they were charged with this crime and with that I would concede the point that made them easier targets for prosecution but what could be the flip side of that? These same people also know how to work the system to their best advantage, when there are three dead teens and the two girls were sexually assaulted there aren’t too many options to take advantage of. This is my problem in relationship to Anthony Melendez, though I do have some doubts, it’s his own words and actions that condemn him in my mind, read his testimony, it’s one statement after another; rape wasn’t his thing, at one time he tried to protect Jill from David, he told Raylene not to cry he wasn’t going to hurt her, he tries to make it sound like he was almost an innocent bystander.
When he pled guilty we always look at the fact that by doing so he got the death penalty taken off the table, that’s what he gained but people don’t look what other advantages Anthony Melendez gained by taking this path. Once he pleaded guilty he was not under any legal obligation to do anything other than admit his own guilt, he didn’t have to testify against anybody he really didn’t have to testify at all, so by taking the plea he gave him self a chance to tell his side of the story without being contested by anyone, the prosecution didn’t have to present a case against him and of coarse his own defense team wasn’t going to take him task on details. So he was allowed to say rape wasn’t his thing un-opposed, even though he had committed a rape only 3 years earlier, if he didn’t plead guilty and the state did have to present a case against him, his past crimes, especially those similar in nature, would have been brought forward, all that got swept under the rug once he pleaded guilty. And that he was even on the street to commit more crimes tells me one thing, Anthony Melendez knew how to use the legal system to his favor, so was he uneducated?
Of coarse this is all just my opinion and I hope we all are allowed to express our opinions. Keek thank you for posting and keeping the discussion alive, hope to hear from you again.
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Of course you are allowed your opinion. We all are 🙂 I find it fascinating that you know so much about this case. You have obviously spent a lot of hours reviewing police report/trial transcripts. My question is this….if you are truly guilty of a crime then why would you need to re-write your confession several times? Could it be that your story isn’t fitting the “scenario” that was presented by investigators? Sorta sounds like that might be the case?
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Keek, that’s a fair question and one that has been asked many times, I sincerely hope my answers don’t come off like I’m being snarky. I would ask why would an innocent man plead guilty in a case where there was zero physical evidence against anyone and there weren’t any eyewitnesses, the only evidence against him were his own words. Secondly, criminals lie and if we look at Anthony Melendez in particular can we find anything that may give us any insight into how he would have dealt with law enforcement, again things that wouldn’t be presented in court once he pleaded guilty. Remember Anthony Melendez was a repeat offender, I don’t know the circumstances of all the crimes he committed but information of the burglary, assaults and rape of the teenage daughter of the Korn family is available to us. When the police found out Anthony Melendez was involved they knew he lived with is mother. Two officers went to her house, Anthony’s mother told the police Anthony hadn’t been around nor had she seen him in over a year, the police knew she was lying. What does that tell us? To be generous we can say she was just trying to protect her son but look even if that is the case it’s shows she felt a need to do that, her son’s trouble with the law had been common enough that she thought her best and first reaction was to lie. That was back in 1979 by that time this was the condition Anthony and Gilbert had created. Misleading law enforcement isn’t uncommon for criminals, and Anthony Melendez doing so wouldn’t be the first time his has happened.
Further I would like to point out a fact that people either don’t understand or care to understand. Once Anthony Melendez pleaded guilty neither he nor the state(Vic Feazell) had any legal obligation to give any details of the crime. This is the point I keep trying to make about the difference between justice and the truth. Sure the families or people like us want the truth or all the facts we can get but unfortunately all the questions don’t have to be answered for our judicial system to conclude that justice as been administered, dispensed and served. All Anthony Melendez was required to do was admit his guilt. Any details of the crime that the state decides to bring forward, after the plead of guilt from the defendant, they do so only to meet their own satisfaction. That is my awkward way in saying Vic Feazell didn’t need to get any details right, that he didn’t feel the first confession was true and got a second from Melendez shows us the Vic Feazell went the extra mile. When Melendez agreed to confess all Mr. Feazell had to do was satisfy his own feelings and convictions on the case. I’ll put it like this if a defendant decides to plead guilty and the prosecutor asks for details and the defendant says well I can’t remember the details I was high, stoned, wasted or whatever, it’s the prosecutor’s prerogative if he will accept that. Have you ever seen a case where someone has agreed to plead guilty but the court denied that plea because the defendant did not satisfy the court, it happens but it’s an extreme rarity, usually when this happens it’s because the defendant acts like a total idiot. Mr. Feazell knew the type of individual he was dealing with and gave him a second chance.
I would also point out that Anthony Melendez’s original attorney, not Mr. Reaves whom has been his attorney for the last 18 years and has made an issue of the two confessions, didn’t have a problem with Anthony having to make 2 confessions nor did he believe in Anthony Melendez’s innocence, again he knew who he was was dealing with. The fact that Feazell taped Anthony Melendez’s confession should show us that Mr. Feazell didn’t feel he was doing anything shady and it also tells me that he knew Anthony Melendez might change his story again and wanted to make sure he had a record of Anthony’s confession of that time. I know there’s some question about what’s on those tapes and I know Mr. Dannen played those tapes for the families, Mrs. Thompson would know what’s on those tapes.
Finally I would say David Spence and Muneer Deeb always professed their innocence, that can’t be said about the Melendez brothers. Now people say they have alibis which they apparently had at that time, sorry to be harsh but that holds no judiciary weight for obvious reasons, where were these alibis back in 1982, 1983 and 1984? People even try to point out that the Melendez brothers wouldn’t testify against Muneer Deeb in his re-trial in 92-93 as if they were tired of playing the charade. But we can look at that in a different why, they both had been in prison about 10 years by then, by that point they realized the state wasn’t going to give them any breaks on parole and Vic Feazell wasn’t helping them out in any way, so why should they do anymore. Though I have never been to prison, I don’t think being tagged as snitch bitches is a label you want. I could be wrong I’ll defer to those with better knowledge. I would question if their testimony was desired anyway, remember this was after Deeb had won his appeal on the grounds that he was originally convicted with evidence that was hearsay and should not have been allowed. Anthony Melendez never had said anything about Muneer Deeb when he testified and even if David Spence had told him Muneer Deeb was going to pay him to kill somebody, that is still hearsay, Melendez would have had to hear Muneer make that statement himself and then there are still other conditions that have to be met for that statement to be admissable. One co-conspirator cannot make incriminating declarations against other co-conspirators without corroborating evidence. The Melendez brothers never said nor did the state even try to prove nor did the state have to with the guilty pleas that the Melendez brother’s ever directly talked to Muneer Deeb. After the higher courts upheld Deeb’s appeal, the state surely wasn’t going to try and use more hearsay evidence. And it looks like by taking this stance is when the whole idea the Melendez brothers were innocent started, I could be wrong about this. It just could be a coincidence with time of events. The book Careless Whispers came out in either 86 or 87 and the case gained national attention, then you didn’t hear anything until 1993 which was when the internet was launched and Muneer Deeb had just won his re-trial and the case came to the fore front of the Nation’s debate on the death penalty, the Melendez brother’s saw their chance to change their circumstances.
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BKL you sure have a lot of details surrounding this case which is interesting to me. How many years have you been following this case? As far as my opinion goes on the innocence of EVERYONE convicted, it will stay the same for now. I believe that they are all innocent of THIS crime. I do know they were not angels and had committed other crimes but as as far as this case, I believe they are not guilty. I am not going to go into details as to why I believe this. You have very valid questions and I hope you keep asking them!
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Keek, for most of the time there was nothing to follow. I read the book during the winter of either 86/87 or 87/88, I guess it depends when it came out, I honestly can’t remember. I read a lot of true crime books back then and it was very popular in that genre at the time, that’s actually how I heard about Careless Whispers. A girl I was hanging out with at the time was in one of those book clubs where they send you a small catalog each month and Careless Whispers was the selection of the month one time. The story was very interesting and it really stuck out in my mind. The overall circumstances surrounding the case were just so intriguing not just the murder itself. All murders have some strange twist to them but this case was so much more. To give you an example and this is something that you never hear about in this case now and that would be the Methodist Home and the Rainbow Drive-In were a central part to this story. The teens at the Methodist Home had a direct pipeline to free drugs with the Rainbow Drive-in and that was right across the street. Didn’t anyone working at the Methodist Home; house parents, counselors or any other staff members have a clue what was going on. And look at all the runaways, Jill had runaway with another girl in January, actually the day she was killed she checked on getting an apartment while she was there she ran into three other boys that had run away from the home. The manager told the police how she knew the boys were runaways because one of her other renters worked at the home and told her. Those three boys would end up stealing a couple cars. Gayle ran away and she stayed right across the street, come on no one saw her. It was like the home didn’t even try to get the kids off the street. Jill’s father brought her back and apparently Gayle turned herself in. You would have to question what they were doing at the Methodist Home and just think if you were a parent that had a child there and think about what Jill’s parents must be thinking. If they had never sent her there she would have never got mixed up with these people. And Jill had wanted to come home for some time, when she ran away back in January she wanted to return home then but her parents didn’t think it was a good idea. Then she was allowed to return home only to return to Waco and get killed days later. And this case is full of these situations, what can you say? So the story stuck with me. But there was nothing to follow at that time David Spence, Muneer Deeb, Anthony and Gilbert Melendez were convicted and in prison. Then in 1993 Muneer Deeb won his freedom and as I posted earlier the internet would be launched that year also and I was just messing around on the internet and came across some articles about his re-trial and of coarse with him winning his appeal there were questions about the others guilt and remember David Spence was still on death row at that point. The overturn of Deeb’s conviction brought the anti-death penalty community out in force and I am opposed to the death penalty so I tried to keep up with what was going on. At that time, and really I guess that hasn’t changed much now, mostly all you could find on the case were articles criticizing the death penalty. In 1986 David Spence’s mother was murdered and it was like the day after or maybe a couple days after she had been contacted by one of the jailhouse informants that had testified against David and he admitted he had lied when he testified against him. You can imagine how that got a lot of people’s attention. The pleas of the convicted being innocent became even stronger, especially for David sitting on death row. He was executed in 1997. 1998 Muneer Deeb died and then in 1999 Gilbert Melendez died in prison. Then the battle over DNA started, this is where things have been stuck up until now.. So I’ve tried to read all I can find on the case since 1993 but a lot of the time from then until now there has been nothing to read and I would say it’s kind of like that now that’s why I started this. The only stuff that you see about the case now is either from people opposing the death penalty, which is fine but their reporting has been very slanted which is not right either. And stories of the on going battle of the DNA keep popping up and that battle has been going on for 15 years. I have serious doubts about the DNA, I must admit reading Autopsies isn’t one of my strengths but having said that I have enough sense to know when the autopsy states Rape Kit- Negative, Hair Comb/Pubic Comb- No Foreign Hairs Found, even I can’t mistake what that means. Anything that could be tested for DNA were samples from David’s car, there were small amounts of blood found in his car, something the supporters of his innocence never mention, so samples from his car were collected and there were hairs found in the bindings used to tie the girls. Mr. Rice said Raylene always carried towels in her car because she went out to the lake (not Lake Waco) she had been out at the lake that weekend and Christine Juhl testified the towels that were used to bound the victims looked liked towels she and David had. Anthony Melendez testified David tied up the bodies when the Melendez brothers went to get the truck. So you shouldn’t expect to find his hairs on the towels or the bindings. that hair won’t be his. None of this evidence will or can it clear or prove innocence or guilt. I ask this question don’t you think if either one of the labs that tested the DNA found anything over the last 15 years that could free an innocent man they would try to get that information out as soon as possible. There hasn’t been any of that, the DNA gets sent to one lab, when that labs fails to come up with results the DNA gets sent to another lab. Sooner or later the fact that whatever DNA there is, is inconclusive. People always talk about the cases where DNA helped free a innocent person but we never hear about the cases where DNA couldn’t help and those cases are much more numerous. And also don’t forget we all talk about we are innocent until proven guilty, Anthony was proven guilty, only because he pleaded guilty but now he has to prove his innocence beyond a reasonable doubt, the state doesn’t have to lift a finger, very difficult to do after you pleaded guilty and testified and the judge warned him of this before he accepted his plea. Keek, I understand your feelings trust me you’re not alone I know you said you didn’t want to get into details and I have to respect that but hopefully you will keep returning, commenting and help keep the conversation alive. Maybe someday you will feel comfortable enough to share some of your own personal feelings, thoughts and opinions in more detail. Thank You again.
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Mrs. Thompson, thank you for returning, your first hand knowledge is invaluable, anyone would gain much from your personal insight, so again thank you!!! It was like zero degrees around here this weekend, so it gave me plenty of time to read over the police reports and testimony. There was something in particular I was looking for and you know how you never can find that one thing you are looking for. But I did find a couple things and in keeping with finding the truth, I don’t need to be mixing up the facts and confusing things anymore than they already are, I need to practice what I preach. I was wrong on some of the information that I posted last week, which I found this weekend. First it was reported that Jill Montgomery had gotten the gas card from her grandfather not Raylene Rice, I had that backwards. Also on the statement of the female witness that the police thought was very credible and put her under hypnosis and she told the same story, I stated that she was in the park with a guy that wasn’t her husband, again I had it all mixed up. Her name was Karen Hoskins it doesn’t look as if she was married the gentleman she was with was, they still didn’t want people to know they were together.
Mr. Thompson on the report Mr. Franks made and I will definitely defer anything I find to your knowledge but on one of the very first reports, even before the police realized they had a triple homicide on their hands, when they first arrived to the park in response to Mr. Franks’ call of a abandoned/vandalized car, Nicoletti writes in his report, which is timed and dated 9:12a 7/14/82, he states Mr. Franks said the girls arrived at the house at approx. 9pm. And I am in total agreement with you about the questionable behavior of both Mr. Franks and Rev. Freuh.
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None of the things belonging to the girls were ever found .ie-purses, clothing ( except those bindings from towel and Jill’shirt and shoestrings that we do not know who they belonged to) also a bra belongi g to Jill was tied around Rayline’s ankle. BTW……the credit card you spoke of was Jill’s grandfathers as he gave it to her to buy gas for Rayline’s car. And no, it was never used by anyobe other than Jill and was never located.
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Mrs. Thompson, again great and such valuable insight. I knew a bra was found around Raylene’s ankle, I didn’t know that it was Jill’s bra. I realized this weekend that I was wrong about whom had the gas card, I apologize. Another great asset you bring is you can keep me in line, thank you!!!
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Mrs. Thompson was there ever any search for their personal belongings in the lake?
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In response to the search IN the lake, I do not recall any details concerning that. I was told that there was a search, but nothing in the way of explanation.
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I’m thinking this case is about to get hot again…..or I sure hope so anyways. There are definitely a lot of unanswered questions!
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Keek, I hope so also but having followed this case for as long as I have it seems to go in cycles and for a little while it looks like something is going to happen and then the case just seems to disappear. Back in 1993 When Muneer Deeb won his re-trial I really thought that was going to blow up everything and at first it looked like it was going to but nothing happened and of coarse prior to the execution of David Wayne Spence in 1997 there was a lot of interest and again nothing. The same with the murder of David’s mother. That’s why I’m here the only way I see anything ever happening is if we keep an open discussion alive. So thank you for taking the time to comment, any questions, comments, critiques and criticisms are welcome.
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I would like to take a little time to explain my interest in this case and my opposition to the death penalty. Yes I would say the whole debate about the death penalty and the appeals in this case are what have kept me following this case. Here’s my feelings on the death penalty, sure I”m opposed to the death penalty for the obvious two reasons people give; what if you convict the wrong person and two wrongs don’t make a right, sitting in judgement to kill someone is no different than if you were out on the street and killed them, in the end you are doing the same thing to the person you’re trying to convict. But here’s something I’ve never seen discussed before, we all talk about getting justice, we all want justice but unfortunately in the world today trials are more about winning and losing, reputations, personal gain, book deals, movie deals and with that justice is thrown out the window. In that atmosphere the death penalty just becomes a bargaining chip in that contest, a bargaining chip that only becomes an obstacle to the truth. That’s what this case exhibits more than any case I can think of, if we removed the threat of the death penalty what would have changed? All the evidence would have been the same, there still would have been a lack of eyewitnesses and physical evidence. And what are we left with still more than 30 years after the crime, questions, uncertainty and what about the truth???
If we are losing justice in this exchange we must preserve the truth. Everybody’s life is a story, unfortunately for those that are taken from us prematurely their story is over but it’s a story that becomes open to the public and public scrutiny. Many things that would have been kept private and secret in life are brought out for the whole world to see. We end up knowing as much if not more about these people in death than many people that knew them in life. In their honor and memory shouldn’t we make sure the story that unfolds is the truth.
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THE STRANGE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING GAYLE KELLY
One thing that intrigues me about this case, totally mind boggling, is that it seems no one tried to nail down a concrete or solid timeline. Other than Detective Salinas trying to track down when Tab Harper made his statements, which blew up in his face, there doesn’t seem to be any effort made towards making a comprehensive timeline and I’m talking about they let things go if they could narrow it down to about a month, surely a timeline would have been vitally important to all parties involved. Though there are many examples of this for the moment I’m going to concentrate on Gayle Kelly. Of coarse she was the pivotal character in this tragedy, she was the cause of the friction between Kenneth Franks and Muneer Deeb, it was she that the $20,000 accidental death insurance was taken out on and she is the embodiment of the mistaken identity theory. Such an important figure but where was Gayle Kelly on Tuesday July 13,1982???
I’ll summarize her testimony. Gayle Kelly arrived at the Methodist Home when she was 15, in the fall of 1981 she started working at Fort Fisher (she and Jill Montgomery would work there together for some period of time). Ms. Kelly states that she met Muneer Deeb sometime in the spring of 1982, in the summer of ’82 she would run away from the Methodist Home and quit work at Fort Fisher. She called Deeb to ask him for a ride to the bus station because she wanted to go to Grand Prairie. Mr. Deeb told her he would take her to Grand Prairie because he was going to Dallas to see his brother. He gives Gayle the ride and when they get to Grand Prairie he tells her when she wants to return to call him and he would bring her back to Waco. He does give Gayle the ride back to Waco and somewhere along the line they decide Gayle will come to work for Mr. Deeb. We don’t have when nor how long Gayle was in Grand Prairie. Muneer Deeb takes an accidental death insurance policy out on Gayle Kelly. Gayle states that she thought it was a worker’s comp policy in case she got hurt at work and she wasn’t aware Deeb was the beneficiary.
She tells us that she stayed with Patty Deis at the Northwood apartments, apartment number 218, her first night back from Grand Prairie. The next two nights she stays at an apartment Muneer Deeb had gotten for her, which was also at the Northwood apartments, number 144. On her third day there Gayle and Deeb get into an argument when he finds Gayle and Kenneth together at the apartment. Gayle moves out and returns to stay with Patty Deis. With the fallen out with Muneer Deeb, the job offer also evaporates. Ms. Kelly gets a job at IHOP working the night shift 11p-7a. At first Gayle says she stayed with Patty for two months, she then thinks about it and says it was only a month and a half. During her time at Patty’s the apartment was broken into twice, Gayle wasn’t sure of the dates. After that time she returned to the Methodist Home.
D.A. Feazell asks her when she returned to the home and she says it was shortly before the 4th of July, then he asks why she returned and she states that Kenneth Franks had talked her into returning to avoid anymore trouble than she was already in. So she turned herself in, her punishment, she was placed on restriction for two weeks, which entailed not being allowed off the premises of the home. Asked if she saw Kenneth after she returned, Gayle replied she saw Kenneth once, she didn’t know the date but she knew it was a Monday and she thought it was about a week before he was killed. Mr. Feazell asked her if she was on restriction how was she able to see Kenneth, She explained that Kenneth had tried to come and see her but the guards would not let him in because he didn’t have a pass and Gayle was standing there outside and Kenneth yelled to her for her to call him because he needed to talk to her, I don’t know if that call ever took place.
Gayle Kelly goes on to say that she left the home for the final time about a couple weeks later, this was the one time she was able to recall the date, she said the last day she was at the home was July 23, she was sure about the date because it was 3 days before her birthday and she would be legal, plenty of questions about this later!!! When she left the home she returned to Patty’s. Mr. Feazell asked if she ever saw David Spence after July 13 and she states she had one encounter with David after July 13, again she didn’t know the date but it was an important encounter as things played out.
This is the gist of Gayle Kelly’s testimony and as you can see not much in the way of dates. It was an interesting story maybe even a little touching, two troubled teens that care so much for each other, the guy convinces the girl to turn herself in to avoid more trouble and while she’s locked up he gets killed and they never get to see each other ever again. Hollywood couldn’t come up with a more gut wrenching ending. But was it true???
Though Gayle didn’t give many dates there were reports and records that could help shed a little light on when things happened. Mr. Feazell realized this and I must give him credit he tried to refresh her memory to no avail but he didn’t want to push to hard nor break down his witness that was the defense’s job. He did all that you could reasonably expect any attorney to do. He knew her testimony didn’t match up with what was on record and he attempted to get her to correct it to no avail. Gayle had said she returned to the Methodist Home right before the 4th of July, he showed her the insurance policy which she had signed and dated, the date being June 22, He then asked her if this helped her remember when she returned to the home but she stood by her previous testimony; she returned shortly before July 4th. Now lets take a look at the reports and records that are available to us.
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Gayle Kelly holds many secrets to the truth about this case. In my opinion, if she would tell someone the truth, many of these questions could be answered. She, like many of the other “young” witnesses, were fed information that would place them in the “limelight” for a period of time. Please understand, this is my opinion! I saw many behind the scene activities during all four trials that gave me cause to wonder about the people we once considered “our heroes” !
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Gayle Kelly is not the only one, I would put Christine Juhl in the same boat. I’m not sure if anyone was fed any information and that’s just my opinion. And I think the trial testimony shows that, yes there was plenty of inaccurate testimony but it looks like Vic Feazell tried to get his witnesses to get it straight but he wasn’t going to totally discredit his own witnesses, no lawyer would have done that, though it sounds cold that is what the other side is there to do. And on your comment about being in the limelight, to me it seems Gayle Kelly and Kebana Reed didn’t need any coaching sure they sucked up the attention, they were both full of their selves and so self adsorbed, at times I wondered did they really ever understand the gravity of the situation.
I know your knowledge about what happened at the trials, in court and out, is unmatched and boundless, that’s why I’m glad you are here. I know you have so much information, things I or most of us that follow this case could not even think about asking and it’s that insight that is so valuable into finding the truth. I can read what everybody can read, we don’t have the insight of the behind the scene dealings and we can’t have any understanding of this but it would be nice to be able to hear it so we could have some understanding. What are we missing???
And in the case of Gayle Kelly and your feelings about her in relationship to this case. In my view, again with the little information I can get, if you believe Gayle Kelly holds many secrets, which I agree with, doesn’t that belief only re-enforce that the right people were convicted. The connection Gayle Kelly presents only brings those convicted closer to the victims. That’s the problem with the mistaken identity theory the prosecution put forward, in most cases you’re trying to make connections, I’m sure you have heard somewhere along the line it’s like trying to put a puzzle together or connect the dots, but in this case they weren’t trying to connect the dots or make connections to those involved one way or the other, they were doing the exact opposite they were trying to down play any connection between the principle players in this case. Come on Gayle Kelly only saw David Spence at the store twice and at the park only twice and they never spoke to each other? Jill and Deeb knew each other to some degree, the easy connection was the Methodist Home to the Rainbow Drive-in, and since they knew each other and the store would be the logical connection then couldn’t Jill have also met David Spence? I would say it’s probable. The state was never going to try to make that connection, it would just be another contradiction to their theory. Trying to pass off that David Spence didn’t know Gayle Kelly was going to be difficult enough to prove the mistaken identity motive. What if he knew both girls? Making these connections only strengthen the case against those that were convicted, it won’t help prove the innocence of anyone. I could be wrong about all this, it’s just my opinion. Mrs. Thompson what am I missing???
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Mrs. Thompson I mentioned Christine Juhl earlier and that she may know more also. Actually that was what I was trying to find this weekend and couldn’t find. Knowing you were there at the trial maybe you could help me find the answer. I remember during her testimony there was some question when she actually worked July 13. She stated she closed at 11p and Deeb gave her a ride home but she couldn’t recall if she worked a split shift that day or worked a straight shift. If I’m not mistaken Mr. Reaves or Mr. Vance asked couldn’t they get that information from her time card to which Christine replied they could but when they tried to check the time cards there was some kind of problem, I can’t remember exactly what happened or if they ever resolved this issue. Do you have any insight on this matter?
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If Gayle Kelly did return to the home right before July 4th and she had stayed with Patty for roughly a month and a half, six weeks, that would put the date that she started to stay with Patty sometime in May, which was impossible. Per the police reports they went to the Northwood apartments and talked to the property manager, Patty started renting the apartment on June the 2nd, Muneer Deeb started renting his apartment June 1 and paid for two months. Some may argue that if she started staying with Patty as soon as Patty rented the apartment on June 2 and that would only put Gayle’s testimony off by maybe two weeks at the most. But there is more evidence that show that wasn’t the case, remember the insurance policy.
Gayle Kelly signed that policy on June 22 and she tells us she thought it was a worker’s comp. policy in case she got hurt at work, we know after she and Deeb got into the argument about she being with Kenneth at the apartment she wasn’t going to work for Deeb, so if she thought she was signing a workers comp policy that clearly shows that at that time she was still planning to work there, again that was June 22, the argument with Deeb couldn’t have happened before then. It could have happened that night but what does that tell us. If June 22 is the earliest they Gayle and Deeb fell out and she had stayed at the apartment he had paid for for two nights that would put the Date June 20 as the first night she returned to Waco and stayed with Patty and June 22 as the night she returned to Patty’s and stayed about a month and a half, which would put the time she returned to the home about August. Again the evidence shows that’s not the case either.
What about those two break-ins at Patty’s apartment, Gayle couldn’t recall the dates but the police had reports on both incidents. I guess at this point I need to look at the progress of the investigation to the point of the break-ins and in particular references to Gayle Kelly. Her name come up constantly in the investigation and the police really wanted to talk to her. As early as the morning of July 14th, when the case was still a missing person case, the police advised Mr. Franks maybe the kids were with friends maybe he should call some of Kenneth’s friends, we know he called two; Patrick Torres, whom would actually come out to the park to talk to police and they arranged that Patrick would get up with other friends of Kenneth and bring them to the police station to talk, which he does the next day at 2pm. He brings in Bobby Brem and Donnie Culp. When they are asked about other friends of Kenneth all three boys mention Gayle Kelly. She was the other friend Mr. Franks called the morning of July 14. It doesn’t say where he called her, she would later give the details of that conversation but she never says where she was when he called.
On the morning of July 15, officer Potterfield goes to the Methodist Home to get background information on Jill Montgomery, he talks to Mary Bellheimer, whom was Jill’s as well as Kenneth’s counselor. She gives him the rundown and states that Kenneth also dated a girl by the name of Gayle Kelly who was also at the Methodist Home. The question I have is if the pokice already wanted to talk to her and she was there why not talk to her then? Or was she still a run away at that time? Mr. Bellheimer doesn’t make that clear nor does it seem the police realize she is a run away as following events will demonstrate. I would add one other thing that disturbs me that I can’t find in the reports. The Officers asked the three boys about friends of Kenneth but don’t you think the obvious question they would have asked would have been about any enemies Ken might have had, I can’t find it in the reports for those interviews on July 15. When Sgt. Baier and Sgt. Simons re-interviewed Bobby Brem on September 10 they asked him and Bobby told them Muneer Deeb.
On July 19, Lisa Kader, another girl that is staying at the Methodist Home and stays in the same unit as Gayle Kelly; the Perkins Unit, comes to the police station with her Unit parent and states she may have some info on the murders. She really doesn’t have any hard facts, she tells them she thinks Muner Deeb killed the three teens and the reason being he hated Kenneth Franks the mere mention of Kenneth set off Muneer he would become very irate and the reason for this, Muneer Deeb and Kenneth Franks had gotten into it over Gayle Kelly. Lisa goes on to say she thinks the police should talk to Gayle she(Lisa) thinks Gayle may know something but isn’t talking because she was so close to Kenneth. Again the police wanted to talk to her if Gayle was at the Methodist Home why not just go over there and talk to her, The police were looking for her, it’s not in the reports but the events of the next day shows they were looking for her.
On July 20, detective Nicoletti and Texas Ranger Joe Wiley try to track down Patty Deis, they have found out where she works, which is the Army recruiting station. They go there and Patty’s supervisor Sgt. Flores tells them that Patty didn’t show up to work that day and actually that was the second day since the murders that she had missed, the first being July 15 the day after the bodies were discovered. Sgt. Flores give the officers Patty’s address. When Nicoletti and Wiley arrive at Patty’s apartment they see that some one has broken into the apartment, someone had busted out the living room window and there’s enough blood left there that it has dripped down to the sidewalk in front of the apartments below. Nicoletti calls the police station to report the break-in, he talks to Sgt. Fortune. Sgt. Fortune informs Nicoletti that Patty Deis is at the police station at that moment reporting the break-in and Gayle Kelly is with her. There are any number of police officers that want to talk to Gayle Kelly at this point.
It looks like Sgt. Holstien gets the first crack at her. One strange thing that sticks out about this interview, with most of the interviews, the officers note the DOB of the person they are interviewing, this wasn’t the case with Gayle Kelly or Patty Deis, Patty states she is 17, Gayle lies and says she is 18, Did Holstien decide not to ask for her DOB because she realized she was lying anyway. Or at that point did the police still not realize she was a run away, it would look that way , after the interview she is allowed to leave with Patty. For the record Gayle was 16 at the time. In her interview Gayle never mentions the Methodist Home nor anything about Muneer Deeb, she never mentions his name. Was Gayle being evasive because she just really didn’t want to talk about it or think about it or just wanted to keep the Methodist Home off the radar not to expose she was a run away or is there more to it???
The next time we see the police talking to Gayle Kelly is July 23, the day she would later testify was her last day at the Methodist Home and actually the date of the second break-in at Patty’s. Gayle testified she was still at Patty’s when the second break-in happened but from reports we Know Nicoletti goes to talk to her at 9am at the Methodist home. Gayle tells him while she was running around town on July 21, the day after the first break-in she was followed by three black men in a blue car, she calls Patty to tell her this and Patty replies she had been followed by a blue car also. We don’t know anything about whom this might have been but it does show that Gayle Kelly was still not at the Methodist Home on restriction at that date.
Nicoletti remembers hearing about a blue Duster out at the park the night the teens went missing, so he calls Detective Salinas and gives him this information. Salinas decides to go talk to Patty Deis, he goes to her place of employment only to find Patty took off early that day about lunch time, she told her boss that she had an appointment at the police station. Det. Salinas said he could never find that any of the officers had made an appointment to talk to Patty Deis that day. Patty would call Salinas and tell him about the second break-in. Salinas concluded Patty made an excuse to take off then when she got off and went home she found her apartment had been broken into a second time. Was Salinas wrong on this. I think the testimony of Gayle Kelly proves he was. Gayle Kelly says she was still staying with Patty during the second break-in, remember she was working nights at the IHOP. She testified that when she got home that morning she noticed the house had been broken into. Could it be Patty went to work knowing her apartment had being broken into again and decided to take off to go deal with it and it was just her wording, “an appointment” instead of an unplanned interview with the police again. And this was the day Gayle Kelly said was her last day at the Methodist Home, was it her last or her first day back? I would say it was her first day back, we know Nicoletti went to the Methodist Home to talk to her at 9am.
Did Gayle Kelly finally realize sometime wasn’t right and decide to hide away somewhere and returned to the Methodist house. We know she didn’t stay long either way on July 28 the police interview her again and at this time she is back at Patty’s. Two break-ins, the feeling she was being followed, was there anything else that may have opened her eyes?
What about that encounter she had with David Spence and she couldn’t date other than to say it was after the murders? When did it happen. I need to back track a little I need to share some of the details of the first break-in before I get to what David Spence said. During the break-in of July 20, the perpetrators ransacked the apartment all except the kitchen were they had left all the knives lined up on the counter with a note that said something to the effect,” We missed you this time but we will get you next time”. But Gyle and Patty thought that it was meant for Patty. It was her apartment and Gayle stated she hadn’t been there long a day or two when it happened. Now the run in with David Spence; Patty and Gayle go to the 7-11, Gayle goes into the store, Patty stays in the car. As Gayle exits the store she sees David Spence standing outside the car and over hears him saying something like,” Won’t it be nice to live to be 18″. Again she thinks David is directing the comment to Patty. But he turns around and faces Gayle and says” Here’s the bitch we’ve been looking for”. I forgot to mention Gilbert Melendez was there also. That second comment was definitely directed towards Gayle Kelly and she stated as much. But what about that first comment?
I need to take a break I will be back later tonight.
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I’m going to try and wrap up my line of questions on Gayle Kelly. When I stopped last night I was questioning the run in Gayle Kelly had with David Spence, an incident where Gilbert Melendez was also present. Of coarse we don’t have a date only that it was after the murders but I think the exchange can help us with that and it would also go towards showing Gayle and David knew each other a lot better than we have been led to believe.
Gayle testified that when she was walking out of the store David was standing outside Patty’s car and she overheard him say, “Wouldn’t it be nice to live to see/be 18?”. Gayle states that she thought he was directing that towards Patty because she(Gayle) was just walking out of the store. Then David would turn to Gayle and said,”Here’s the bitch we’ve been looking for”. That was definitely directed towards Gayle. But what about that first statement about being or making it to 18.
Remember earlier I posted the statement Gayle made about her getting ready to be legal and I had questions about that. In her testimony she explains when she turned 17 she would be able to leave the home on her own accord. And with her testimony that July 23 was three days before her birthday we know the July 26 would have been her birthday. Now I don’t know what the laws are in Texas about when someone is considered to be legally an adult. When I saw she was making those statements about getting ready to become legal I always assumed she meant she was getting ready to turn 18 and I would wonder if she told other people she was getting ready to become legal they also took it to mean she was getting ready to turn 18. If that is the case did David Spence also believe that, that Gayle was getting ready to turn 18? And if so did he also know that her birthday was on July 26? And could that also show that he was making that comment about living to be 18 to Gayle, he was aware of her birthday but he thought she was getting ready to turn 18. And if he knew her birthday and made this comment we can place this event before July 26. From police reports we know Gayle was with Patty July 20 and 21, back at the home in the morning of July 23 and back at Patty’s on the July 28. But Gayle states she was staying at Patty’s when her apartment was broken into the second time which was the July 23. What time did that break in happen? I would put the theory out there that it happened during the early A.M. hours of the July 23 and Detective Salinas was wrong in his assumption that it happened later in the morning.
Patty Deis was very scared after the first break-in, she and Gayle both though she was the target of the break-in, Gayle Kelly was working the night shift at IHOP. If Patty was so scared would she want to stay in that apartment alone? I would think not. Gayle stayed there during the daytime. I think they noticed the second break-in when Patty brought Gayle home that morning, July 23 and I would hypothesize that by this time recent events had made Gayle Kelly realize she was the target and decided to go in hiding and returned to the Methodist Home.
My theory on the timeline of these dates July 20 until the early morning of July 23:
A.M. hours of July 20 the first break-in happens at Patty’s, Gayle is staying with Patty at this time. Both girls think Patty was the target of the break-in.
July 21, both girls are followed my black males in blue car.
Either July 21 or July 22 Gayle has her run in with David Spence. The comments he makes are directed towards her. He knows her birthday is coming up soon. She doesn’t think much of his statements, she knows David can be mouthy at times especially when he’s around his biker type friends.
When she returns home from work on the morning of July 23 and sees the apartment was broken into again, she decides to return to the Methodist house to be safe.
That still leaves us plenty of questions if this was the case, why didn’t she tell the police when they talked to her on July 28? Why didn’t she say anything about Muneer Deeb when the police talked to her for the first time July 20? She knew there was serious friction between Kenneth and Deeb? This doesn’t gives us any concrete answers, it only shows that she was hiding something. None of which help us answer my original question; where was Gayle Kelly on Tuesday July 13,1982.
One other little piece of information that may help in finding the truth. The police interviewed many people that said they saw Jill, Raylene and Kenneth at the park. One of these eye witnesses was John Henderson, they had gotten John’s name from one of his friends. When the police talked to John he told them yes he had been at the park and he saw Kenneth Franks but it was not on Tuesday July 13 it was Monday July 12. John told the police he saw Kenneth get into a car with two girls. He described the car as a bright colored car like a Trans Am or Z 28. I think it’s safe to say he was talking about Patty Deis’ peach colored T-bird and the two girls John had seen Kenneth with were Patty and Gayle Kelly. Gayle’s testimony on when was the last time she saw Kenneth Franks she states; It was on a Monday she couldn’t remember the date she thought it was about a week before his death. I think it was a Monday but it was the night before he was killed. Gayle Kelly didn’t return to the Methodist Home around July 4 and left on July 23, she returned on the 23rd and stayed a couple days!!!
The Methodist Home would have had records back then in the 80’s showing when Gayle Kelly ran away and came back but I doubt if they have kept those records 34 years later. The state didn’t want to prove she was not at the Methodist Home the night of the murders, her story and their theory sound more plausible if she is out of the picture, David Spence mistakenly took Jill for Gayle because he really didn’t know Gayle and hadn’t seen her for at least a couple weeks because she was back at the Methodist Home on restriction and couldn’t leave the premises not even to go across the street to the Rainbow Drive-in, the only place Gayle and David saw each other.
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I had asked the question about “why are you not having Christine Juhl testify at the first trial?” The lead investigator replied, “we would like to, but we can’t trust her. She is “squirrely” and we never know what she will say.” So, in my opinion, she wasn’t well known for being truthful ! To me, that says “we can’t take a chance she will ruin our case”.
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On the other subject of Gayle being believable——-one thing stands out to me. If David didn’t know Gayle very well, how did he know she would be 18 her birthday??? Or was that question from David a figment of Gayle’s imagination? If the “mistaken identity theory” is from someone’s tunnel vision, I consider the entire scenario could very well fit into that same category.
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Mrs. Thompson the idea of David knowing Gayle’s birthday was my conclusion, Gayle never said that, her testimony was that she thought David was making that statement towards Patty. And actually in her statement to Truman Simons on September 12, 1982, she doesn’t say she was there nor that it was David that made the statement, it was just one of the bikers in David’s gang. The reason I was making that conclusion was to make the point that they did know each other well enough that he knew her birthday but not her age, she was turning 17 not 18, remind you I don’t and never did believe in the mistaken identity theory I believe David and Gayle knew each other a lot better than we have been led to believe. Gayle Kelly was dishonest but was her statements to Sgt Simons on Sept 12,1982 or her testimony on May 22,184 closer to the truth, we can only speculate on that. All I know is when the police talked to her on July 20, 1982, July 23, 1982 and July 28, 1982 she lied about her age, she never mentions Muneer Deeb nor David Spence, which I find very strange. And that none of the officers asked her about Deeb at that time even though at least two people had said they thought he might have had something to do with the murders. Lisa Kader straight out said she thought Deeb killed Kenneth because of Gayle Kelly on July 19, 1982. The very next day Patty Deis comes in the police station with Gayle Kelly to report the first break-in and she mentions that she thinks Muneer Deeb had something to do with the murders, it doesn’t look like she tells them it has anything to do with Gayle Kelly but don’t you think the police would have put the two together. One girl says it’s because of Gayle Kelly the other girl mentions the same suspect(Muneer Deeb) and Gayle Kelly was staying with her. That’s what I’m talking about by connecting the dots, it just looks like the police weren’t doing that. Gayle Kelly was right there in the police station and she was talked to by a couple of officers but this information they had just obtained didn’t come up!!!
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Mrs. Thompson may I ask you was it Det. Salinas that made that statement. As I know you must be fully aware Christine testified at Deeb’s re-trial and it was the impeachment of her testimony by the defense that crushed the states case and allowed Muneer Deeb to walk. I think Christine may have known more and I don’t like cop bashing but if Salinas made this statement about Christine Juhl it only goes to show his ignorance and lack of understanding and he was the lead investigator, no wonder things got so messed up. Even though David Spence abused the hell out of Christine Juhl and she got out of that relationship she still had feelings and cared about him, it was obvious anyone could see that. Anytime Christine came back to Waco she would go to the jail and visit David. We may not understand that and we might not be able to defend that but it is what it is, going out and spouting off stupid comments about it doesn’t do anybody any good. Yes Christine would have been considered an unreliable witness because of this, no one could be sure if she would try to protect David. If Detective Salinas was so worried about doing any damage to this case maybe he should have worked on his sloppy terrible paperwork and reports. This may have played a part in the impeachment of Christine Juhl’s testimony.
Mrs. Thompson I know you went to all the trials, I’m not sure if you can remember all the testimony or if you would even want to. But can you remember during Deeb’s re-trial the exchange between Christine and the defense attorney about the 8 page statement she made to Salinas and Baier back in 1983, about 10 years before the re-trial. Christine tried to say the report was inaccurate, the defense attorney asked her if she was saying that those two officers were corrupt and she stated that’s not what she was trying to say. The defense attorney would go on then at one point ask her if the officers were nice to her and she would say no they were rude. The exchange between Christine and the lawyer became so headed that the judge decided to call a recess.
Christine had signed that statement, in doing so she was confirming the validity of the statements of facts therein. At the time she was 18 and we can say and understand that hey as a teenager she didn’t focus on the details within that report and just signed it but that doesn’t fly in the court of law that’s why it’s of the up most importance that any officer of the law maintains a high degree of professionalism. When a officers makes off handed statements about a potential witness it only harms all parties. And Salinas had a history of typing up terrible reports, just look at some of his reports on this case, they should be clear and precise the facts he’s trying to provide should be obvious and without question, some parts of his reports are so incomprehensible you don’t know what he’s saying. All I can say is that’s inexcusable and appalling!!!
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It was not Ramon Salinas who made that statement to me. As you know, The case was suspended after only a few months. It was activated later with Truman Simons as the lead investigator. That is when Muneer Deeb came into the picture. I do know that Salinas and Simons did not agree on many aspects of the case. It was about this time that the mistaken identity began to immerge. That entire scenerio was originated by Truman Simons.
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Mrs. Thompson yes I realize Simons was the one that created the mistaken identity theory. Did he ever give you any reason or insight to why or what led him to this???
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Mrs. Thompson has my mind running a mile a minute right now, that might not have come out right! Anyway I would like to review the investigation Truman Simons and Dennis Baier conducted after the case was suspended which in effect removed Detective Salinas as the lead detective on the case. Detective Ramon Salinas has been very critical and one of the most outspoken against this investigation, we can see this may have more to do with conflicting personalities and office politics. Again I want to say I’m not trying to engage in cop bashing, I’m just trying to follow the facts where they take us.
At the end of August 1982, either the 30th or 31st, there was a meeting held by all the officers working on this case, during this meeting it was concluded that they weren’t getting any new leads, a report that summarized the status of the investigation to that point was created. Considering the contents of that report Chief Scott put the status of the investigation as suspended, the officers that were spending the majority of their time on that case were told to move on to other cases. Sgt. Simons whom wasn’t really working the case in a professional capacity at that point, he was a Sargent of patrol, had taken a interest in the case. He was one of the first officers to arrive at the scene when the bodies were discovered and it had an effect on him. Trying to keep up with the case he would go over the other detectives reports, something some of those same detectives didn’t like, it was like he was always hanging over their shoulders. Sgt. Simons had a reputation of being somewhat of a cowboy, liked to do things his own way, another thing some officers didn’t like. Simons went to Chief Scott, which was in essence going over the head of the lead investigator Detective Salinas and his supervisor Lt. Horton, and asked if he could work the case. Simons pointed out the fact that the detectives that had been working that case hadn’t followed up some leads, they didn’t need any new leads they just needed to do some follow up on leads that hadn’t been addressed. Chief Scott granted Simons his request but knowing how that was going to ruffle some feathers and the reputation Simons had the chief decided to pair him up with another officer to keep things in check, that officer would be Dennis Baier. They took the case over on Friday September 10, 1982.
These are a few of the things Simons and Baier found when they reviewed the case at that point or when the case was suspended roughly on September 3. It was this time period July 14,1982 until September 3, 1982 that Det. Salinas was the lead investigator. First as early as July 15, officers talked to close friends of Kenneth Franks, that would have been Pat Torres, Bobby Brem and Donnie Culp but there was nothing in the reports that any of these boys were asked the obvious question, did they know anyone that Kenneth may had been having a problem with. Then they noticed the name Muneer Deeb came up many times as a possible suspect by multiple sources but from July 14 through September 3, not one officer had interviewed or questioned Deeb. And even though Deeb’s name came up in to relationship with a Gayle Kelly and officers had talked to her on 3 occasions they never asked her about Deeb. Though it looked like Det. Salinas had a good lead in the suspect Terry “Tab’ Harper, Salinas had brought him in about a week after the murders and released him because suspect had alibi that was confirmed, he(Salinas) was still spending a considerable amount of time tracking down stories about Harper in August. If Salinas confirmed Harper’s alibi in July wouldn’t it have made more sense to follow up some of the other leads after that? You can see why Salinas wouldn’t me happy about how things were going.
Simons and Baiers plan, well by luck both officers knew a couple people they wanted to talk to, Baiers knew Bobby Brem and Simons knew Muneer Deeb. They decided to talk to Brem first, the first question they asked him is was he aware if any enemies Kenneth Franks might have had, his answer? Muneer Deeb. Later that night they decide to go to the Skaggs Supermarket, Simons knew Deeb would do his shopping late at night there sometimes. He had seen Deeb there shopping with another girl. Simons and Baier got to the store about 1am, which would have been Saturday September 11,1982. While they were waiting the two officers talked to two employees of Skaggs, Willie Tompkins the security guard and cashier Patty Picks and they had a very interesting story to tell about Muneer Deeb.
Patty told them the reason Deeb came in was because he was obsessed with a girl by the name of Kebana Reed. Kebana’s sister Chrisna also worked at Skaggs. One time Deeb asked Patty if she would steal Chrisna’s key to her apartment so he could make a copy. Both Willie and Patty told Simons and Baier that Deeb had made statements about Kenneth Franks, how he(Deeb) hated Franks and was glad he was dead. Simons realized the girl he had seen Deeb shopping with must have been Kebana Reed but he asks were there any other girls that Deeb would bring in and he was told about a girl named Dana Diamond. After Simons and Baier obtained this information they decided maybe they needed to look into Deeb before they talked to him.
Saturday morning September 11, Simons and Baier return to Skaggs to talk to Chrisna after talking to her the officers decide to interview both sisters. The sisters explain how Deeb was stalking (that’s my description) Kebana, he would sit out in the parking lot of their apartment all hours of the night, would show up to her work. Deeb had asked Kebana to marry him, he had bought her an engagement ring, He helped her with her bills and bought her stuff. He had also made comments about Kenneth and the murders. Hearing this Simons and Baier remembered another girl Deeb seemed to have some strange connection with, Gayle Kelly.
Sunday September 12, 1982, finally some one asks Gayle Kelly about Muneer Deeb, almost two full months after the murders, even though the police had information only days after the murder that Gayle may have been the reason Deeb killed Franks. Gayle runs down the problems between Kenneth and Deeb. Deeb has also asked her to marry him for one month for $500. She tells them about the break-in and how she had been followed and harassed. But things had changed since that time back in July, actually she and Deeb had made up and were friends again. he would spend nights at the apartment with Gayle and Patty and since he had started staying the break-ins and harassment had stopped. Gayle and Patty were planning to go out with Deeb that night. The officers asked Gayle not to say anything to Deeb about them asking her questions about him. Apparently that request fell on deaf ears because about 1am, Monday 13, 1982 they get a call from a hysterical Gayle, she tells them that Muneer Deeb admitted to her that he killed Kenneth and the girls.
Concluding Gayle Kelly must have said something to Muneer Deeb, the officers are afraid he might take off. Later that same Monday September 13, 1982 Simons and Baier present what they have uncovered during their 3/4 day investigation to Chief Scott, the captain, the police departments legal adviser and an assistant D.A, to see if they have enough to get a warrant on Muneer Deeb. They are advised by the legal counsel that they have enough probable cause to obtain a warrant. From there they go in front of a justice of the peace and get their warrant. Approximately at 11:30pm Monday September 13,1982 they arrest Muneer Deeb.
The following day Tuesday 14, 1982 Simons and Baier finally make contact with Dana Diamond. She relates the familiar story, Deeb had helped her out, gave her money, asked her to marry him for $500. They ask her if Deeb ever said anything about Kenneth Franks or the murders at the lake. She informs them; yes he had he had told her the two girls that were killed were in his store the day they were killed and that he also said that he just missed out on making $20,000 because he had an insurance policy on a girl that was suppose to be with them. Dana didn’t know whom the girl was nor the insurance company that Deeb had the policy with. Simons and Baier would find that information later that day, Deeb had purchased accidental death policies on two girls, Gayle Kelly and Christine Juhl. Deeb was the beneficiary on the policy for Gayle Kelly and David Spence was the beneficiary on the policy for Christine Juhl. The officers decided they needed to track down Christine Juhl, they found she had moved away from Waco by that time, she was in Forth Worth. They make contact with her and she agrees to return to Waco to talk to them.
Muneer Deeb would take a 3 hour lie detector test Saturday 18, 1982. When it was reported that Deeb didn’t show any deception in regards to questions about the murder, he was released. Whatever fractions and friction that existed in that police department by that time came to a head Truman Simons would leave the police department and go work for the county as a jailer.
I won’t get into Simons’ actions or conduct at the jail, I am more concerned with his investigation and the state of affairs when he was an officer for the Waco P.D.. Those whom believe in the innocence of the 4 that were convicted like to vilify him, he even gets torched by former fellow officers. Is he getting a fair shake, especially from people like Detective Ramon Salinas? For me if it was my daughter that had been raped and killed I would prefer the cop that went out and tracked down ever lead not the one that concentrated on one suspect and got tunnel vision, even when there were obvious signs and evidence that his theory was implausible and there was another possibility stronger possibility that he barely looked into and when he did it was half hearted at best. Again just my person feelings and opinion.
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You don’t want to get into “cop bashing” ?? You did a pretty good job of bashing Salinas. ! So much so, it reminds me of the way Simons bashed Salinas to me during MANY of our phone calls and personal meetings during the investigation.
The question about the murder-for-hire, mistaken identity theory and Simons………he called me one day and told me that he had come across a girl that looked like Jill’s twin. Now, keep in mind the only time he saw Jill was as a corpse . She had been dead for many hours in the hot Texas sun, where she was tortured, stabbed, raped, and her throat slashed (not once, but twice). Am I believing he could claim she and Gayle would pass for twins???? Not hardly!
My opinion is this is where he began to develop the mistaken identity theory. His reputation was that he solved many cases by “tunnel vision”. Once he started his theories, he managed to “solve” it no matter what it took. Also, planting evidence seemed to be his specialty, allegedly. His solving the Juanita White case eventually ended with 2 men being released from prison and the actual killer being identified by his dna on the victim.
I too, do not wish to “bash”……..I simply believe there are guilty people still out there. (Some alive-some dead)
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Mrs. Thompson I admit I was extremely harsh on Detective Ramon Salinas but honestly he left so much undone while he was the lead investigator. I understand he had other leads which he had to follow but as the lead investigator it was his responsibility to delegate and make sure all possible avenues were traveled and when all avenues aren’t traveled it leaves questions. You yourself, sitting through four grueling trials, know how stories changed over time, just think about how much some of those stories changed just during the summer of ’82 and if some of those stories were addressed or questioned back in July right after the murders happened what answers we may have now and what difference that could make. And afterwards up to now he has been publicly critical of this case, like it or not we know Salinas and Simons didn’t like each other, but it was Salinas’ own doing or the lack of that opened the door for Simons.
On Truman Simons he should have never said that kind of stuff, as I said no officer should have done that, it’s totally unprofessional. And I’m not trying to defend everything Simons did, especially once he went to work at the jail. But for those five days Friday September 10, 1982 through Tuesday September 14, 1982 that was excellent police work and he shouldn’t get all the credit he wasn’t alone let’s not forget Dennis Baier. And though it was Simons that came up with the mistaken identity theory one which I strongly disagree with, remember he arrested Muneer Deeb before the police even knew about the insurance policy, that theory developed later, what happened? Just thinking Jill and Gayle looked similar?
Of coarse you knew Jill personally and saw Gayle during the trials, did you think they looked that much alike. I know there supposedly were some that thought so, the few pictures I have seen of both girls I don’t see it. Yes Simons only saw Jill personally that once but he did see pictures of both girls. I would ask about one picture in particular, if you can remember. During Deeb’s re-trial in 1992 it would have been the state’s exhibit #100 which was a picture of both girls side by side. The reason I ask about this photo was when Christine Juhl testified that December 1992 and was asked if she could identify the individuals in that photograph, granted it was 10 years after the murders had occurred when Christine testified but here was her response and I quote “One of them is Gayle and one of them is Jill. IF I”M NOT MISTAKEN, the one on the right is Jill and this one, the one on the left is Gayle”. Christine might not have known Jill but she had already testified she saw Gayle at the store, “She came into the store quite a bit”. For an outsider like myself, if Christine Juhl had to qualify her answer with “If I’m not mistaken” it gives credence that the two girls Jill and Gayle may have looked alike. But even with that it’s a huge leap from two girls looking alike to mistakenly killing one for the other. Are we to believe not one word was spoken between the victims and their killers? The victims left the car they came to the park in and apparently got in a vehicle with their eventual killers, this happened without any discussion or conversation between the two parties? I would hypothesize Kenneth Franks was the target that night and when Simons arrested Muneer Deeb on Monday 13, 1982 that’s the information he had, what changed that? And I would add changing one’s theory would not be tunnel vision, he was willing to change his theory as new developments arose, what were they? Tunnel vision is more like when you continue to go after something even though all signs point to the impossibility of that view.
I don’t comment on the Juanita White case too often, each individual case needs to be dealt with separately. Yes that case was a fiasco and involved some of the same players. Many want to connect the two cases and rightfully so, for myself I feel it’s better to try to find the answers to one before we delve into the other and in keeping with that I will admit I haven’t looked into nor tried to follow the Juanita White murder closely, sure I have read articles about it and yes it looks as if there are as many questions in that case as there is in the Lake Waco murders. I would like to say though the DNA in Mrs. White’s case is much different than the DNA in the Lake Waco case.
On Truman Simons and planting evidence as you rightfully say it’s alleged, mainly coming from his enemies or distractors. I can’t say one way or the other if it’s true all I can say is there wasn’t any physical evidence left at the crime scene, if the crime scene was ever truly identified in the Lake Waco case, so there wasn’t any planting of evidence in this case. One may ask about the bracelet Simons found, that had no effect on the case. I feel Truman Simons gets unfairly vilified with regards to this case or at least those first 5 days after he took over the case. Mrs. Thompson I’m sure you have read the news articles on this case over the years and wouldn’t it be fair to say most of those articles miss facts, bend facts, make it look like Simons just went after Muneer and David without any probable cause or reason, that’s just not right. I’ll repeat again to find the truth we have to look at everything. Mrs. Thompson I hope my views on Simons and his investigation don’t put you off, I still have doubts and am still looking and asking questions.
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Mrs. Thompson I guess I won’t be able to convince you to elaborate on whom you think either dead or alive may be involved? Could I ask if you might think if any of the so-called biker element had anything to do with it. I’ve always wondered about that. One witness told police that Kenneth owed one of the bikers money over some drugs, but there were a few stories out there that Kenneth owed people for drugs. And though Gayle Kelly didn’t mention either Muneer Deeb or David Spence when she first talked to police on July 20, she did talk about the bikers. She said Kenneth didn’t get along with the bikers and the only time he dealt with them was when he did drugs deals with Rebecca Des Marias. Yes the same Becky where we get the famed story of Tab Harper and she was a run away at the time and staying with a biker named Robert Wulf. And as you know the police were looking for a Robert that Jill may have had ties to. Gayle Kelly gave them the name of Robert De La Rosa if I remember correctly, I will have to look that up again.
Then when Gayle talked to police on July 23, she told them that three black men in a blue car had been following her on July 21. But when she talked to Simons and Baier on September 12, she told them that it was the bikers that were following her and just hanging around her apartment, sitting on the railing outside her apartment. Then she would say it was a biker from David’s gang that made the comment about living to see 18 to Patty. You know when she testified in 1984 that had changed to David had made that remark. Either way the biker theme came up pretty consistently.
Another stupid question I have is would you know how close were apartment #144 where Christine and David stayed and apartment #218 where Gayle and Patty stayed? If you were in one apartment could you see the comings and goings of the other.
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I have quite a bit I would like to say concerning the last several questions. However, I am becoming more and more suspicious of the reason you are not able to reveal to me your identity. I am sure you understand that I have been approach many times with questions from people that I should not communicate with. There seems to be only a very slight interest in the comments/questions we have made.Since your objective was to get questions answered I feel that is not happening. I will think all this over and decide if there is an advantage to continue.Simple curiosity is not what I am interested in.
On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Careless Whispers or Contrived Convictions wrote:
> bkl67 commented: “Mrs. Thompson I guess I won’t be able to convince you to > elaborate on whom you think either dead or alive may be involved? Could I > ask if you might think if any of the so-called biker element had anything > to do with it. I’ve always wondered about that. On” >
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Mrs Thompson, I have never said I can’t nor won’t reveal my identity, all I said in response to your comment that you didn’t know me was I wasn’t sure if there was anything I could do about that, not that I have a problem doing so. I will tell you anything you want to know but honestly will that convince you who I am, only you can answer that. But as I’ve told you in the past I have nothing to hide, I have nothing vested in this case one way or the other, just interested in finding the truth. Is that just simple curiosity maybe so, I guess it depends on what value you put on finding the truth. Mrs. Thompson I know just within the last few months you posted on another page the question, “Isn’t anyone else interested in knowing what is going on? If so join us and ask questions”. You saw my response to that. Also recently you stated you were getting tired of waiting but you were going to wait as long as it took to find the truth.
About your comment that you have been approached by people you shouldn’t talk to. if anybody has advised you that there are people you shouldn’t talk to they are totally full of crap, that’s only pushing away people that may be interested. Anyone can buy the book or get on-line and find information about this case that’s all public information and talk about it. I would question anyone that would try to quell those conversations, are they honestly looking for the truth. Mrs. Thompson you and only you should decide whom you want to talk to or don’t want to talk to, including me and we have to honor and respect that.
And again as I stated to you before, I feel part of the reason for an overall lack of interested in this case is due to the fact, that what few people have tried to keep some attention on this case are only interested on one side of the story They are going to turn off any of those that don’t agree with those views when they won’t allow those views to be equally expressed and debated as well. As I am well aware how you have stayed interested and involved in this case, surely you would have to admit all that’s ever printed or brought out about this case is totally slanted towards one view and at times the people pushing this one view have done so by misrepresenting the facts, bending facts or just outright ignoring the facts, that’s not right. I personally know this myself. You know I have commenting on many of these articles over the years. Just to point out one example, on the sight I was talking about earlier, he reported that Mr. Dannen found evidence, the van used during the murders and DNA found in that van was connected to Anthony Melendez. That’s a bombshell!!! And as you well know Mr. Dannen was one of the main proponents of Anthony’s innocence. But we don’t hear anymore about that, so I asked if there was anything new with this development and of coarse I never got a reply. And it has always been like that, if it’s anything that goes against their views of innocence they don’t and won’t talk about it. Is that looking for the truth???
Mrs. Thompson I’ve always been totally open and honest about my thoughts and views on this case and I’ve been open to listening to all thoughts and views. That’s why I started this page. Yes I was hoping I could generate more interest and that hasn’t developed yet. It’s only been 4 weeks so far and there’s other things I’m looking into doing that might help in that cause, spend a little money, see what information I’m allowed to put on here. I just don’t want to put stuff up only to be told I didn’t have the proper permission to do so. But this is the way to garner interest just get the story out there, let people see and allow them the chance to question or express whatever they would like. Then maybe if we get lucky somewhere down the line maybe someone tied to the case will feel the need to join the conversation. And you know that’s the problem now, People like Vic Feazell or Truman Simons don’t want to talk about it anymore but can you blame them, again that’s where just pushing one slanted view only hurts the quest for the truth. Why should they answer any questions when their answers are going to either be twisted or ignored and then they are going to be vilified by everyone. To find the answers and truth we have to change the conversation, change attitudes. Attitudes that have developed over 30 years, it will take time. Those that talk about honesty and truth but use lies and deceit only lead us to an abyss of misery.
Mrs. Thompson as I have stated before being allowed your knowledge, insights and thoughts are an invaluable asset and I can’t express enough my gratitude and I would hate to lose your input. I also understand you have to do what you feel is best and right, I can only say, and of coarse I’m totally bias in this, is you will see the value in my interest and in continuing. I sincerely hope to hear from you again, THANK YOU.
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Rebecca DesMarias, Rusty Escott and Terry “Tab” Harper, what information did the police obtain? There has been much written on the possibility that Tab Harper was responsible for these murders. It has been reported over and over and over that many sources reported seeing Harper at the park or with the victims, is that what the police reports state? Harper had a bad reputation, had a long criminal history, would end up shooting himself during the commission of a crime in 1994, where he stabbed an elderly couple, the elder gentleman would die, This act would manage to throw further speculation upon Tab Harper. Though Harper’s name is mentioned many times early on if you look at the details you will find that most of those that reported hearing that Harper was involved or saw Harper got that information from one person and an unreliable person at that. Trying to read the police reports and clearing all this up can be difficult but it has been something I’ve been working on. I hopefully will be able to share this tomorrow, so stay tuned!!!
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The first mention of Terry “Tab” Harper in the police reports is Detective Salinas’ report on July 17, 1982, 10:00am, he states; On July 16 approximately 10:30am Detective Nicoletti received call from anonymous caller. Caller said that Tab Harper had committed the murders and that the caller had seen Tab Harper standing beside victims car approximately between 9:00pm and 9:30pm. Harper had a record so Salinas and Nicoletti decided to go pick him up. They take him to the office of Judge Joe Johnson. While they were there the judge received a call from a known police informant. The informant told the judge he had heard from some kids that Tab Harper was responsible for the killings and that Harper had threatened a girl whom was a witness. With this information Salinas went to talk with the informant where he was told by informant that he had heard this from his nephew. The nephew had gotten this information from a girl named Leigh Ann whom was attending summer school at University High. Salinas then went to the high school and talked to the principle and got the name Leigh Ann Hogeland. When Leigh Ann was questioned about the information she had been telling people she stated she never made any comments pertaining to the murders nor Tab Harper. Salinas told her he had received information from two different callers that she had given them this information. Leigh Ann stood her ground and only added that some kids were saying that Tab Harper was capable of committing these murders. I would add at this time though it’s not in his report at this time. that Salinas got a few other names of students that were also attending summer school with the informant’s nephew, Leigh Ann Hogeland and Kenneth Franks and that might have heard the talk going around at that time. Salinas would not contact these students until November 12, 1982. Three teens were questioned by Salinas Kim McKay, Brian Gooding and Danny Hall, all three said they didn’t remember hearing any conversation about the murders. This information would be in Salinas’ report of November 30, 1982.
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Next on Salinas’ report of July 18, 1982, 7:25pm he states; He received call July 17 approximately 9:15am from a Amy Brown. Amy says she heard from a friend that a Becky Demarias had told this friend of Amy’s that a friend of Becky’s had told Becky that he knew where three dead bodies could be found at Speegleville Park and that this was before the police had this information. Amy also stated Becky was a runaway and no one knew where to find her and that Becky was afraid to come forward. Salinas asked Amy if she knew any of Becky’s friend, she gave him the name Billy Wortham and a biker she only knew by the name Armadillo.
Salinas’ report of July 20, 1982, 8:05am Salinas states: 3:05pm, gives no date but it looks like this happened on July 19, made contact with Mr. Walter DesMarias, Becky’s father. Father tells Salinas and Detective Fortune that he was getting ready to call the police because his daughter was hanging around some shady characters that might have something to do with these murders. Mr. DesMarias tells them that Becky is staying with a biker named Wolf. Salinas and Fortune track down this biker, find him to be one Russell Wulf and find Becky at his home, approximately 3:30pm July 19.
During interview with Becky she tells them that she didn’t hear anything about bodies being found until Wednesday July 14 after 8:00pm. and gives them the following details; After arriving at Koehne Park after 8:00pm she noticed Tab Harper giving one of her friends, Brent May, a hard time. Becky says she confronted Harper because she didn’t want him to hurt May. Then Harper asked her where was Bud, which is Wulf, She told him at the Manhattan Lounge, Harper asked her for a ride there and she refused, after that is when conversation that three bodies that had been raped and stabbed at Speegleville came up. Becky adds that Harper was laughing about this in his usual crazy manner. She added Harper had also told her he had seen a lot of police cars headed in that direction and that Harper was with two friends Lefty and a Greg Cubbison whom had been recently released from jail. Becky Stated this conversation took place approximately between 8:30pm and 9:00pm and that several people were present during this conversation.
Checking on her story Salinas next called Brent May at approximately 4:55pm. May confirmed he had an altercation with Harper, Salinas asked him when this happened, at first May says between 9:00pm and 9:30pm. Salinas asks him to think about it to be sure then May says between 8:45pm and 9:00pm. May also gives Salinas names of others that were present at the time; Gail Copeland, Ray Hill and Cody Miles. Salinas was unable to contact Hill or Miles but called Gail at approximately 5:20pm. Gail stated that she had gotten to the park between 6:30pm and 7:00pm and that the altercation between Harper and May happened between 10:00pm and 11:00pm. Salinas asked her if she was sure about the time, Gail replied she would check with some of her friends.
After these interviews Salinas questions Becky again and tells her he received information from 3 or 4 sources that Becky had talked to Harper Wednesday before noon, Becky still persisted that it was Wednesday night when she talked to Harper and first heard about the bodies.
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Salinas would make a second report later that same day July 20, approximate time 10:50pm. In this report he tells us that at 8:40am July 20, he talks to a Roger Sherman and was told by Sherman that approximately two weeks before the murders Tab Harper had asked him if he wanted to pick up a whore and kill her. Salinas states that he had arranged a polygraph test for Becky DesMarias for this day and decided to recontact Leigh Ann Hogeland. Salinas asked Leigh Ann if the girl that gave her the information about the bodies being found at Speegleville Park before noon Wednesday was Becky, Leigh Ann admitted it was and that Becky told her it was Harper that Becky had talked to. But Leigh stated that it wasn’t Wednesday before noon, she said she heard this Wednesday evening at approximately 7:30pm while she was with a friend at Town West Center on Valley Mills. Her friend’s name was Gayla Scott.
Salinas and Sgt. Fortune went to Gayla Scott’s home and questioned her. She tells them she was with Leigh Ann but doesn’t remember anybody talking about bodies being found and that there were so many kids out there but she didn’t remember seeing a girl matching Becky’s description.
1:50pm July 20 Becky beings her polygraph test which last until approximately 3:00pm. Analyst Sgt Sherrell advises Salinas that Becky had not run a true chart however he was unsure if she lied to all the questions or was deathly afraid. Salinas questions her again about when she first talked with Harper about the bodies at Speegleville Park, she still persisted it was Wednesday between 8:45pm and 9:00pm.
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Now we get to Nicoletti’s first report that mentions Harper which he typed up July 20, 1982, 8:08am. Remember he is repeating some of the same information that we have already read in Salinas’ earlier reports.
At 11:00am July 16 received call from anonymous caller stating that caller had been at Airport Park Wednesday July 14 and had talked to a girl that told him she had talked to Harper that morning, Wednesday July 14 before noon, and Harper had asked this girl if she had heard about the bodies being found at Speegleville Park. Caller stated that Harper was suspicious and he thought that Harper could be responsible for the murders. Caller would not give his name nor the name of the girl whom he talked to, stating he was very scared of Harper and his friends.
1:30pm July 16 received another anonymous call. Caller stated he had heard from a Rusty Escott that a girl had told him(Rusty) that Harper was asking her about the murders Wednesday morning, With this information Nicoletti looked up Rusty Escott and called him 2:00pm July 20. When Nicoletti first made contact Rusty asked Nicoletti how he got his number and informed Nicoletti that he(Rusty) was the anonymous caller that had called earlier. Rusty stated he had talked to a Rebecca at Airport Park Wednesday morning about Tab Harper and the murders, He didn’t know Rebecca’s last name but he was sure that he talked to her on Wednesday morning. Rusty also added that he was in Koehne Park Tuesday July 13 and had seen Harper standing outside his black Chevrolet van next to the orange Pinto.
By this time, the time of this report, Salinas and Fortune had found Rebecca’s identity and had picked her up and interviewed her. At approximately 5:00pm July 19 Nicoletti called Rusty back to ask him if the Rebecca he had talked to was Rebecca DesMarias. Rusty admitted it was.
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Salinas states in his report of July 22. 1982 3:15pm; At 10:05am July 21 Larry Hogeland came into station with daughter Leigh Ann to be interviewed. Salinas states that he had interviewed Leigh Ann before on Friday July 16 and that she didn’t give him information at that time and she still wouldn’t give any information about the identity of Becky during this interview.
This is very confusing, which you will find in many of Salinas’ reports. This is what I’m talking about when I say it was critically important for the reporting officer to be precise and clear, which Salinas regularly failed to do and this came back to hurt them when Christine Juhl testified in Muneer Deeb’s re-trial.
Salinas states that this interview was on July 22 and that Leigh would still not give him any information to the identity of Rebecca but he states in his report of July 20 that he found Rebecca’s identity, talked to her father and after interviewed her. And in this report of July 22 Salinas doesn’t even mention the second time he talked to Leigh Ann which was on July 20, where he asks her if she had gotten the information about the murders from Becky and Leigh Ann admitted she had, which Salinas puts in his second report of July 20.
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Now we come to the first time officers talked to Gayle Kelly which was July 20, Nicoletti puts this information in his report of July 23, 3:17pm. Gayle states that Kenneth didn’t get along with the bikers and that the only time he had any dealings with them was when he was doing drug deals with Rebecca DesMarias. Gayle also states that Kenneth told her he was going to be coming into some big money because of some drug deal he was going to make. Gayle said Kenneth would not give her the name of the person he was going to be making the deal with for her safety but it was some one that had returned to Waco recently and that she knew this person. Nicoletti asked Gayle did she know anybody that would fit this description, some one that had returned to Waco recently and would be dealing drugs with Kenneth, Gayle gave three names; a Transky that had gone to prison for narcotics and been paroled about a year earlier. The second name was Tab Harper whom Kenneth liked to party with and whom Kenneth said always got a hold of good narcotics. The third name she gave was a Joey from Dallas whom had come to Waco on one occasion about four months prior and had brought a large amount of narcotics with him and that a lot of narcotics and money was passed around when he was here and he had told Kenneth he would get up with Kenneth the next time he came to town.
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The next time we would hear about Tab Harper was in Salinas’ report of July 26, 4:25pm. Salinas got information July 23 8:15am from Scott Johnson, some one Salinas had talked to on July 16. Approximately 9:45am and put in his report of July 17. Scott tells Salinas he had talked to a Robert Spikes on July 22 approximately 4:30pm and Robert had told Scott that he (Robert) had seen a black van in Koehne Park Tuesday night July 13 and that the people in the black van were arguing with the people in the orange Pinto. 9:50am July 23 Salinas calls Robert to varify this story. Robert tells him no he didn’t see this he heard it from a Tony Shaw and that this Tony Shaw had told him(Robert) that he(Tony) had talked to this guy named Rusty and Rusty had told him that he(Rusty) had talked to this girl named Becky Wednesday morning July 14. Becky told Rusty that this guy was bragging about bodies at Speegleville Park. At First Tony says that he thought the name of the guy that was doing the bragging was Ken, then he said it was Tab and he believed it to be Tab Harper.
Salinas would go and talk to Tony Shaw at 10:20am, Tony would tell him that Rusty had talked to him directly and given this information about Becky and Rusty talking Wednesday morning. For the first time Salinas would write that this information was hearsay in this report of July 26 but if you look back everybody that had called with information about Tab Harper had gotten it from some one else except Rusty Escott. And most of these people had gotten it from Rusty Escott. Now we will see how reliable Rusty truly was.
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On Salinas’ report of July 28, 1982 10:05am, he states; 11:00am, gives no date but it looks like it would have been July 27 which would have been the day before. brought Rebecca DesMarias to the police department and interrogated her again about her knowledge of murders. Again she stated she didn’t know anything. Salinas then asked her if she knew the motorcycle club called the Scorpions, again she replied she didn’t. Salinas continued asking her if the people at the North 18th Street motorcycle shop could be Scorpions. Rebecca said she had a friend Carren Ritchie that was going with a biker by the name of Angel that was employed at the North 18th Street shop and a member of that club. Finally Salinas asked her if she knew any Mexicans that ran around with Tab Harper, Rebecca answered the only one she knew was a guy that went by the name Bird.
At 1:45pm Salinas and Nicoletti went to the apartment of Carren Ritchie to question her. Carren told the officers that she didn’t know Angel’s name she only knew him by that nickname and the club on North 18th Street didn’t have a name per say and didn’t fly colors or things of that nature. She then added that she had seen Rebecca at Flat Rock Park the previous Friday, July 23, and at that time Rebecca had not said anything about the murders or that she had any knowledge about them. While Salinas and Nicoletti were at Carren’s another girl that knew Rebecca came to the apartment, this girl was Kathy Prochnow.
Kathy stated see had seen Raylene with Jill several months before. Kathy knew Jill from the home. Kathy went on to tell the officers that she was at Koehne Park Tuesday July 13 approximately 7:30pm to 9:00pm . She was riding with a biker named Fingers and they were riding with Angel and Carren. Kathy remembered seeing the orange Pinto with Kenneth and the girls come into the park but she didn’t talk to them, Kathy and her friends were just riding through and left.
After this Salinas made contact with Angel, whom stated he was at the park Tuesday when the girls (Carren and Kathy) said. He did see Tab Harper messing around with some kids down there though he didn’t remember seeing if Harper was in a car or van, relating that they don’t associated with Tab Harper. Next Salinas tracked down biker Sundance, who is Harold Mitchell owner of the shop on North 18th Street.
The morning of July 28 Salinas received a call from Georgia Hofen, she told him her children had told her they knew a Johnny Mayhew and Mayhew had told them that he had talked to a Rusty the previous Friday and Rusty had told him that he(Rusty) had seen the victims get into a van with a subject that was known to be a bad guy
Salinas contacts Mayhew and asks him about the conversation he had with Rusty. Mayhew stated he doesn’t remember anything Rusty might have to say because Rusty is a little guy with a big mouth and is not a very credible person. Mayhew added Rusty had told him that he(Rusty) had seen Kenneth at Jack’s Stereo earlier the day of the murders. With this information Salinas and Nicoletti decided they needed to talk to Rusty Escott again.
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Detective Salinas brought Rusty Escott to the police department the following day July 28 at 11:07am, this would be on his report of July 29, 1982 12:45pm. Salinas told Rusty that they had received information from several people that they heard from Rusty that he had talked to Rebecca DesMarias about Tab Harper telling her about the bodies before the bodies were found, that this conversation between Rebecca and Rusty had taken place Wednesday morning before noon and that Rusty had told people he saw the victims getting in the van belonging to Tab Harper. Salinas asked Rusty for all the details of this meeting with Rebecca.
Rusty answered that he had been wrong on the day, he had talked to Rebecca on Thursday morning July 15. Rusty did not remember if Rebecca told him when she talked to Harper. Remember she always claimed, even after many interrogations, that she talked to Tab Harper Wednesday night. Rusty apologized for mixing up the day but now Salinas realizing the whole story of Tab Harper knowing about the bodies Wednesday morning was nothing more than a rumor started by Rusty Escott, he askes Rusty was he even at the park Tuesday night July 13 and if he saw Tab Harper and the victims getting into his van. Rusty states that he was at the park Tuesday night between 8:00pm and 9:00pm and he had seen Tab Harper sitting in his van parked beside the orange Pinto but never saw the victims, Harper was just talking to a guy. Rusty had been the only witness to state that he had seen the victims get into the van, now he was changing his story and admitting he never saw the victims.
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Now at this point, after the only person that had said he had seen Harper and the victims together admitted this wasn’t the truth nor was the rumor he started about talking to Rebecca DesMarias on Wednesday morning and the officers had brought in and questioned Tab Harper whom gave them an alibi which they checked and verified, one would think that the investigators would move on to other leads they had gotten and not followed up like Muneer Deeb which two girls had said could be responsible for the murders. One, Lisa Kader straight out told them that it was because of Gayle Kelly and Gayle Kelly was staying at the apartment of the other girl, Patty Deis, you would think the investigators would want to check this out but they hadn’t even try to talk to Deeb, no one would until Simons took over the case September 10. Salinas still was tracking down stories on Tab Harper. What was he trying to do, verify a lie?
Anyway on his report of August 3, 1982 8:05am, Salinas states that at 9:00am August 2 he received a call from a Bob Seggler whom stated that he had talked to Nicoletti earlier about a girl from the Gemini Apartments named Nell Priest. Seggler said he had talked to Nell Priest about midnight July 27 and she had told Seggler that she talked to Harper July 14 before the news of the murders had broken out and Harper had told Priest her days were numbered. Seggler also said that Priest had told him that she had called crime stoppers but no record of this call could be found. Salinas left his card on the door of Nell Priest’s apartment.
Nell Priest called later and asked why his card was left on her door, Salinas explained he wanted to talk to her about some information he had obtained. He asked her if she could come down to the police station so they could talk in the privacy of his office, Nell agreed to this. At 12:45pm August 2 Nell came to the police station. Salinas asked her about some comments she had made about Harper admitting he the murders, Priest denied any knowledge of this. After this Nell detailed how she knew Tab Harper. She stated she had met Harper about a year earlier at Airport Park, as she was walking to the park’s restrooms Harper came up behind her and grabbed her up and refused to let her go. Nell busted a beer bottle over his head and then Harper threw her down and pulled out a knife and told her he ought to kill her for what she did, however Nell stated she was not afraid of Harper at that time. Nell continued that she had seen Harper about a week or two weeks before the murders at Jack’s Stereo and he stated that he was ready to go back to the pen and he was going to hurt some one really bad before he went back. Salinas asked Nell if she knew anybody that was running around with Harper she gave the name Mark Boatwright. Then she stated she was at Midway Park either Wednesday July 14 or Thursday July 15 running her dogs and she saw Harper and Boatwright and Harper was bragging about having killed two girls and a boy, saying he cut off the nipples and breast of the girls and the privates of the boy. Nell stated she didn’t pay much attention to Harper thinking he was just running his mouth as he usually does. Salinas asks Nell about any of her friends that might have been present, at first she refuses to give any names but then gave the name June Wilson whom had come to the station with her, June had been the one that asked her about the murders Thursday morning July 15 this being the first Nell had heard about the murders. Nell further stated that she had heard from some kids that she refused to identify, that were saying if the police would check under the seat of Harper’s car or van they would find a bloody knife.
Salinas called June Wilson 1:57pm August 2, June confirmed she had told Nell about the murders Thursday morning. June further stated she had been to the park and heard about the murders Wednesday. Salinas asked her about the day and time, she stated she had gone to Midway Park with Nell Priest about 3:30pm and this is when she heard about the murders. June added she saw Harper and Boatwright had come to the park in a boat and Harper had made comments about killing three kids two girls and a boy. June says she got sick to the stomach and left. June then stated she wasn’t sure about the day or time she heard this, she said she would talk to some friends and call back. June called back August 3 at 8:00am and talked to Detective Trantham, she told him she was positive that she heard this on Wednesday July 14, no mention of time. With this new information Salinas decided he needed to talk to Mark Boatwright.
On August 2 2:30pm Salinas received a call from a Louise Burney whom was the probation officer for one David Sanders. On August the first Sanders told Burney that a Mr. Howser, Tab and Bubba were in a devil’s cult. Burney stated Sanders would call her back with more information on this group.
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August 5, 1982 Detective Salinas and Sgt. Holstien made contact with Mark Boatwright at his place of employment, trying to verify the information Salinas had gotten from June Wilson that Mark Boatwright was at Midway Park Wednesday 3:30pm July 14 with Tab Harper. Boatwright informed officers that he hadn’t been hanging around with Harper for over a month because Harper liked to start trouble. Boatwright also told them that on Wednesday July 14 he wasn’t with Harper, wasn’t in a boat and wasn’t at the park he was working. Salinas and Holstien went into the office and talked to the manager. The manager confirmed Boatwright was at work and couldn’t be at the park at 3:30pm, not on July 14 or any other day that week, Boatwright had worked all week coming in at 8 and working complete shifts. Salinas would detail this in his report of August 5, 1982 4:40pm.
This in effect would end the investigation of Terry “Tab” Harper” as a possible suspect in the murders of Jill Montgomery, Raylene Rice and Kenneth Franks, until 1994, twelve years later after Harper killed himself while committing another crime and the old rumors started circulating again. Sgt Holstien would go talk to one Charles Sedigas at the Bellmead jail on August 26, 1982. Sedigas would relate a story where he and another friend were in the parking lot of Jack’s stereo about two or three weeks prior, which would have been early August, and that two subjects arrived in a black van, one subject was a Mexican and the other was a guy he believed his name was Tabor. Sedigas said that Tabor was trying to start fights with everyone and stated he had killed someone before and then the Mexican subject said he knew Tabor had killed someone before and that Tabor was involved with the murders of the kids at the lake. Then the Mexican said Tabor had a gun and had killed the kids. When the Mexican subject asked Tabor about this Tabor responded what do you think, laughed and walked away. Sedigas did not know first or last name of Tabor or Mexican Subject.
Sedigas also gave information to Holstien about the Beth Bramlett murder, the girl that had been murdered August 9- August 10 outside Axtell. Sedigas said he had dated Beth months prior to her death and that he was at the party the night she was shot. Holstien didn’t know if Sedigas was being truthful and stated it appeared to her that Sedigas was looking to make some kind of deal to dismiss or reduce some of the charges against him, one of which was assault on a police officer. Holstien passed on the information about Beth Bramlett to the Sheriff’s office, they being the agency handling her case and detailed this meeting with Charles Sedigas in her report of August 31, 1982, 10:10am, This would be the last mention of Tab Harper in the police reports dealing with this case, on September 3, 1982 the case was suspended.
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It is still hard to understand why the Waco Police Department would suspend a TRIPLE MURDER CASE in less than two months. I was told that it wasn’t closed , just “suspended”. “If someone walks into station with good information or confesses, they would look into it.” In my opinion, that was a “slap in the face of the victims and their families. “
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Mrs. Thompson I totally agree with you. And that they didn’t follow up on all the leads they had at that time is totally astonishing. That was the reason given why the case was suspended; the investigators weren’t getting any new leads or information and hadn’t for weeks, two or three weeks. I will belabor this point again, people are unhappy with Truman Simons and maybe rightfully so but when he took over the case on September 10 he didn’t create new leads or go after anyone without reason, he followed up leads that were already there, he did so with the knowledge, knowledge anyone would have obtained if they looked at the police reports at that time when the case was suspended. Chief Scott knew Simons’ reputation and that letting him work the case was going to ruffle some feathers that’s why he teamed him up with Dennis Baier to make sure Simons didn’t go off on one of his own personal crusades. And look at how much things had changed from the beginning of the investigation July 14 until Simons and Baier started talking to people September 10. Christine and David had broken up, she wasn’t even living in Waco by the time Simons and Baier talked to her on September 14 or 15. Gayle Kelly and Muneer Deeb had patched things up by the time Gayle was asked about Deeb on September 12, he was sleeping over at the apartment with Gayle and Patty. Just think about all the questions that could have been asked and were missed even though the police reports clearly show they had information that the murders may have had something to do with Gayle Kelly and Muneer Deeb by July 19 and did absolutely nothing with that information.
Was there any contact between the people in the two apartments; 144 the apartment Deeb had paid for Gayle Kelly to stay and by the night of the murders was occupied by Christine and David and apartment 218 where Gayle was staying with Patty Deis? Gayle Kelly would testify bikers, bikers in David’s gang, were hanging around apartment 218 harassing and following her. Were these bikers also hanging out at David’s apartment? Could Gayle at the time this was happening back in July and was never asked identify any of these bikers or associates of David Spence? What was the reason she identified them, the bikers, as being in David’s gang. Gayle also testified Kenneth kept Muneer from seeing her, where was Deeb trying to contact Gayle, at the apartment? And if Deeb was trying to see Gayle at apartment 218, then did he spend anytime or hang out at apartment 144 or around the apartment complex in general? I’ve asked this before; were the two apartments close enough that some one at one apartment could see people coming and going from the other. If Kenneth was trying to keep Deeb away from Gayle at the apartment was there a confrontation or altercation between the two? If so when, was there more than one, did anybody else see or witness this? All this could or should have been asked back in July, by the time Simons and Baier asked questions this had all changed, When they first contacted Christine Juhl it was because of the insurance policy. Dana Diamond had told Simons and Baier that Deeb had told her that the two girls that were killed had been at his store the day they were killed and he just missed getting $20,000 because he had an insurance policy on a girl that was suppose to be with the two girls that were killed. Dana didn’t know what girl, Simons and Baier found there were two policies. one for Gayle and one for Christine. The arrangement of the apartments was discussed but what relevance that fact may have had was missed because Christine and David had moved on when Christine was first talked to in September. I’m probably not explaining that very clearly, if the officers would have asked Gayle about Deeb either time they talked to her July 20, July 23 or when Nicoletti went to talk to her at the apartment on July 28, things at that time would have been like or at least closer to how things were on the nights of the murders and a plausible connection could have been made at that time, Christine and David in apartment 144 and Gayle and Patty in apartment 218 and there being some state of hostility between Gayle and Muneer, that’s not how things were when Simons and Baier talked to Gayle on September 12, Christine and David were gone and Muneer was staying with Gayle in apartment 218. This was not the only lead or information that was left untouched by the investigators up until the time the case was suspended.
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I see a lot about how the truck both the Melendez brothers testified was used to transport the bodies could not have been used because it was sitting on blocks and wasn’t running. I would have to ask the people that keep stating this do they understand impeaching testimony? Just because some one says something doesn’t make it true, yes Calvin Nesbit testified that the truck was sitting in his yard all of July 1982 but his testimony was impeached.
Here is what Calvin Nesbit stated; I can’t remember the date, the truck was in my yard for about three months, about two months before July through all of July. I know it was there on July 4 because I have a family barbecue every July 4. And Mr. Nesbit wasn’t sure when and whom picked up the truck, though he did state he did see Mr. Melendez’s step dad come out to work on the truck and that Gilbert had been out there to work on the truck but again he wasn’t sure how many times Gilbert had come out.
The person that sold Gilbert Melendez was Richard Sulak, both Mr. Sulak and his wife Rhonda would testify that Gilbert bought the truck on July 3, 1982 and that it was in running order and not only did they say this they had a notarized document that stated the date of sale July 3, 1982. This truck could not have been sitting in Calvin Nesbit’s yard two months before July, Gilbert didn’t buy it until July 3. That’s impeaching testimony and just if for some unfathomable reason this wasn’t enough, the prosecution was able to correct Mr. Nesbit’s faulty timeline. Mr. Melendez’s stepfather picked up the truck after Gilbert had been arrested and was in jail for the Darvin Pack incident which happened Labor Day weekend, Labor Day was September 6 that year and Gilbert was arrested that week, that’s when the truck was picked up. The truck was not in Mr.Nesbit’s yard May, June and through July as he testified. It was picked up in September, was there through August and taken to his home sometime in July. Mr. Nesbit also testified that when the truck was first brought to him the tires were not flat, they became flat after sitting there for awhile.
While some may argue that the truck was in Mr. Nesbit’s yard sometime during July and there is some wiggle room for the exact dates, impeached testimony is impeached testimony, Mr. Nesbit was clearly wrong that the truck was there two months before July, if he couldn’t even at least get the months correct are we to believe he was right on the days.
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What type and color car did Mr. Richard Franks have back in July 1982?
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Earlier I was reading the Grand Jury testimony again, something I hadn’t done in a long while, the trial testimony keeps me intrigued and perplexed for countless hours. But neglecting such a vital source one forgets the sheer inconsistencies between the police reports. the Grand Jury testimony and trial testimony and as with so much with this case; questions!!!
One thing I thought was very telling or very strange, Christine Juhl was pretty sure on dates in her Grand Jury testimony of November 1983 and her trial testimony at Deeb’s re-trial in December 1992. She remembered David and Muneer talked about the insurance scam on July 4, She knew she moved into the apartment Deeb had gotten for Gayle on July 10. She stated she moved out July 20. Her last day working for Deeb and the day she left Waco was August 7. Christine was sure on all these dates but when it came to July 13 and July 14 her memory was much more hazy. She could remember the days before and the days after but not those days, why? Another day she could not date was the day Gilbert and Tony took Christine and David out to Speegleville park in Gilbert’s truck but since she was sure she moved out July 20 and Gilbert didn’t buy the truck until July 3, it had to be between those dates.
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I’ve just been reading the statements and testimony of Richard Frank’s again, IMHO something just doesn’t feel right. I know I’m always looking for connections and sometimes I may be trying to make 1 + 2 = 4 but when you take into account all he said it feels like it as to be more than just coincidences. Having said that I still strongly believe the 4 that were originally convicted were responsible for this horrendous crime. I guess I would put it like this I feel at least 90% sure they did it, so that leaves room for doubts and questions and if they didn’t do it Richard Franks would top my suspect list along with Robert Freuh and Clifford Oliver.
The one thing I would question about the guilt of Spence and the Melendez brothers is this; at least one of the victims had to know their killer(s) and went off them one way or another but why? To go off and party? To me that just doesn’t add up. Of coarse I didn’t know the girls personally and can’t say for sure how they acted or behaved. But according to the reports it doesn’t make sense they would run off to party when they had to return home shortly. Raylene Rice seemed to be very responsible, at least for a teenager and I guess that adds an intangible difficult to measure, she had to be at work 8:00am the next morning. Though Jill Montgomery had had some troubles it looks like she was making a real effort to get things straight in her life. She had just returned home recently and this was apparently on a probationary basis, see how things worked out. Was she willing to risk that to just ride off and party with some guys she really didn’t know? One could argue that Kenneth knew the killer(s) and Jill and Raylene just followed his lead. But I would even question that. Jill and Kenneth may have been in love but there had been troubles with their relationship and Jill seems to be the one that was more in control, maybe more mature. When Kenneth had gotten rough with her before she ended the relationship. She apparently had a conversation with her mother shortly before that night (July 13) about what to do about being in love with a problem. To me that doesn’t sound like some one that just goes along with it. Then there’s the time factor, I have seen where it has been said that the girls were suppose to be back home in Waxahachie by midnight but where does that come from? Mr. Rice didn’t even know Raylene had taken Jill to Waco. Raylene’s mother really hasn’t said much. Renelle, Raylene’s younger sister, said Raylene told their mother she was going to eat dinner with Jill and her mother and would be home after that, she gave the time 10:00pm. Mrs. Shaw, Jill’s mother said she expected Jill to be home by dark which was approximately 9:00pm, so a time frame between 9pm and 10pm seems reasonable.
If the girls got to the park between 7:30pm and 8:00pm and they were suppose to be back in Waxahachie which was over an hour away that didn’t leave them much time, even if as usual teenagers they were going to push things to the limit. I think when they took off with whom ever, they did so knowing they could trust that person and/or they would be back very shortly. Even if Kenneth tried to talk Jill and Raylene into getting into a car to go partying, I see Jill resisting this, telling him no! She hadn’t come back to Waco to blow up everything she was working on back in Waxahachie. Which brings me back to Mr. Franks.
Mr. Franks was at the lake that night also, though he said he was at Midway Park. He said he left his house between 8:30pm and 9:00pm. That was the same park Clifford Oliver and his friends were and where Clifford left his car. Clifford said he got there approximately between 8:30pm and 9:00pm. Obvious question did Mr. Franks and Clifford Oliver and his friends run into each other or see each other? To me it is more than likely. But when Mr. Franks called the police the next morning about the abandoned car which belonged to Clifford Oliver he said he didn’t know anything about the car or the owner, very strange to me.
Another thing that doesn’t add up and there was never a definitive answer found. The M.E. said the victims were killed about midnight and that they had eaten about a hour before they died. The contents of their stomachs matched what they had eaten earlier in the night, before 7:30pm. Kenneth burger and fries and the girls Mexican food. Mr. Franks said he ate burgers and fries with Kenneth when he had sent him to Whataburger but when Mr. Franks went out that night he went to Dairy Queen on Valley Mills that night and got burgers again. Clifford Oliver’s wife worked at Dairy Queen, she and Clifford had gotten into a fight that night. Clifford said he and his friends were on Valley Mills and went to the 7-11 to get beer. Again could Mr. Franks and Clifford and his friends have run into each other? Mr. Franks said he got home about midnight that night. Clifford Oliver said when they left the park to try to get more beer it was after midnight,
I can’t find it right now but know a girl reported seeing Kenneth in a truck with two guys, Clifford was riding around in Todd Childers’ truck. Todd’s truck was a green Dodge, again I would have to look back at the reports but I think I saw a green truck mentioned in a couple of the reports. Gayle Kelly testified Mr. Franks called her the morning of July 14. Mr. Franks testified he went to Patty Deis’ apartment at the Northwood apartments that morning. I don’t know which one is true but if Mr. Franks went to Patty’s apartment (218) that morning, Clifford Oliver was also there at David Spence’s (144). I would ask is it possible that Mr. Franks and Clifford Oliver kept showing up at the same places but never saw or ran into each other?
And what about what Donna Olsen told the police about Mr. Franks telling one of her friends that the bodies were found where he use to go camping. I know when he testified they tried to clean that up, making it sound like he was talking about the general area not so much the specific place where the bodies were found. The same with Mr. Franks selling the boat and Kenneth not being able to miss any more days of school. Mr. Franks and the state wanted it to look like there weren’t any problems in that home. They left out the relationship between Mr. Franks and Kenneth King and the relationship between Kenneth Franks and Kenneth King though it had been reported they didn’t get along nor did Kenneth’s friends. It was reported Mr. Franks had come on to a couple of Kenneth’s male friends. So was it true everything was good and fine at that house?
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Now that it looks like the DNA evidence battle is finally over, the latest testers revealing the same thing Dr. Ed Blake said many years ago, “he could find nothing”, where does that leave anybody that was looking for the truth? I must say either way the DNA results went it wasn’t going to be a cure all and provide all the answers. If it could have proven Anthony Melendez was innocent, which I totally doubted just because the type of evidence that was being tested, as I said before just because you don’t leave a hair somewhere doesn’t mean you weren’t there, there would have been even more questions about whom was responsible. For all those that will keep pointing to Tab Harper, there is still no credible evidence against him or that he was even at the park that night. One unreliable witness (Rusty Escott) that changed his stories is far from credible. I would still like either Detective Ramon Salinas or Detective Mike Nicoletti to explain why they released Harper so fast, they could have held Harper on suspicion of murder for sometime, don’t know the exact length of time they could have held him each state is different. But remember the information they had at the time, the police were told there was an eye witness to the crime and Harper would kill her if she came forward. Common sense would dictate the police would have held on to Harper at least until they could find and talk to this apparent eye witness but it looks like they released Harper before they tracked down Rebecca DesMarias the supposed eye witness, why? In his report Salinas states Harper wasn’t their guy but gives no explanation, not that I’m questioning his judgement, I feel the detectives had a very good reason to come to this conclusion but what was it? Surely “I was sitting home watching tv” is not a rock solid alibi, of coarse that being what has been reported he said. I just wish Salinas or Nicoletti would clear this up so people could move on from Tab Harper.
And talking about alibis, what about Anthony Melendez’s apparent alibi? The F.B.I. looked into this, what did they find? I’ve seen it reported that Anthony had a rock solid alibi. Again I doubt that and that’s why we haven’t seen the F.B.I. report, don’t you think if the F.B.I. was investigating this and found rock solid evidence it would have come out at some point, I think this is just another case where the findings were inconclusive, the difference between an alleged alibi and a rock solid alibi.
Anthony’s alibi that he was painting in Bryan that afternoon and never went to Waco but stayed in Bryan has been supported by his uncle and two cousins that were painting with Anthony. Sounds like case closed but not so fast, here’s the problem with this alibi. Anthony Melendez’s family had lied to authorities before to protect Anthony just look at how he was getting paid at that job. He took his pay out of his cousin’s check so they could help him avoid detection from authorities. So their statements can’t be taken as the truth on their own, there would need to be corroborating evidence. One may ask about Anthony’s employer and this would show the difference between an alleged alibi and a rock solid alibi. Anthony’s employer couldn’t say for sure if Anthony was there all day, he wasn’t at the site all day if at all himself and it was the kind of job, which is common, where the workers didn’t punch a time clock, so even though Anthony got paid for being there doesn’t mean he was there, this would give Anthony’s cousins another reason to lie because if Anthony and one of his cousins took off they didn’t inform their boss and got paid for it. Now compare that with this alibi. Nell Priest and June Wilson reported seeing Tab Harper at the park Wednesday July 13 afternoon with a subject named Mark Boatman. The police tracked down Boatman at his place of employment. Boatman told the police he hadn’t been at the park he was at work. In this case there was a time card and Boatman’s supervisor confirmed Boatman was at work that day. So not only did the police have the time card as evidence but they also had the supervisor’s own statement to corroborate, that’s a rock solid alibi. I think that clearly shows the difference between the two alibis.
Not that Anthony’s employer being unable to give him a rock solid alibi should be the end of trying to find one, which I would think the F.B.I. would definitely looked into but this is where things may work against Anthony just because the passage of time. Melendez states they stayed in motels during the week while they were painting in Bryan and would return to Waco on Friday. Did anyone remember seeing Anthony at any motel that evening, are there any security videos that could support this or prove otherwise, a video showing his uncle and/or either of his cousins checking in or being at a motel but no Tony would be very damning for Melendez but again I doubt if this is the case because it would have come out. If they were staying in Bryan they had to eat did anyone remember seeing Anthony out eating anywhere? They were painting an apartment complex, I don’t know if it was a new complex without residents or not but could anyone at that complex remember see Anthony that afternoon. The F.B.I. would have asked and looked into all this and I would guess they didn’t find anything conclusive. They probably asked people but too much time had passed that people couldn’t remember exact days or dates which Anthony would have needed for a rock solid alibi. For those pushing Anthony’s innocence I would ask him where he stayed that night or if he could remember where he ate. If he can’t remember exactly I would ask him were there places he regularly stayed or ate. Looking at that F.B.I. report should be a priority. Accusations and innuendos will prove nothing, you need evidence.
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Looks like we’ve hit the proverbial wall that silent lull where no thoughts nor ideas can break the ice. But I keep reading over everything and innumerable questions remain. Mrs. Thompson I hope you could answer this one question for me. I know Jill was at your house waiting for Raylene to get off work before they headed to Waco. While there she told you she had a couple things she needed to pick up from the Methodist Home; a REO Speedwagon poster and a shirt or sweatshirt she had let one of the other girls at the home borrow. The police checked to see if Jill had returned or visited the Home that day (July 13) but they couldn’t find anyone that had seen Jill. My question were those items ever returned to the family and/or did the family ever find out whom the girl was that had these items?
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I never saw the poster or shirt . My recollection is her house mother did say that she came by that day (the 13th). I do know that in some pictures of Jill and Gayle, there is a shirt that Gayle is wearing that is the same shirt Jill is wearing in other pictures. Pictures were taken after Jill had lost quite a bit of weight.
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Mrs. Thompson thank you for your reply. I would have to look again but it was something I think I read recently in the police reports that they asked people at the Home but no one remember seeing them. Looking at my notes the only two house parents the police talked to between July 15 and November 29 were Debbie Sapp that came into the police station with Lisa Kader July 19 and Patsy Lyles on November 29 after they had talked to Dana Miller, the girl that was in the Big Sister program at Baylor and told them whom was Jill’s room mate, very strange they didn’t have that information until that time. And the police talked to the counselor Mary Bellheimer a number of times. The girls they questioned were Ginger Yoby, supposedly a close friend to Jill and the girl that was expecting to see Jill on the 13th, they talked to her a couple times and she stated she did not see her. The roommate Angie Rhoden was also asked on November 29 and hadn’t seen her. Mentioning the picture with Gayle wearing the shirt was exactly where I was going with this. If Jill was planning to stop by the Home to collect her belongings and did not why? Maybe when she got to Waco she found out the girl that had her stuff wasn’t at the home at that time, that girl could have been Gayle Kelly and if Jill heard this where did she get this info, Muneer Deeb?
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Where she got the info is a question that has no accurate answer. She could have talked to any number of people including Kenneth Franks. Knowing Jill, she would have called Ken as soon as she got to Waco.
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Mrs. Thompson I have actually put a lot of thought about Jill contacting Kenneth much earlier than around 7pm, it would make sense and I would wonder if they had made plans before hand, maybe Sunday night or Monday, I guess we will never know. I know the police checked Jill’s family’s phone bill looking for toll calls but did they check Mr. Franks? Jill’s mother said Ken had called one time Sunday night but Jill was out and he said he would call back at 8. And with the information the police obtained from Pat Torres, Bobby Brim and Michele Schillings it looks like Kenneth wasn’t aware that Jill was in town or that he was planning to get up with her until sometime around 7pm. Pat said Ken called him between 6pm and 6:30pm and asked Pat if he wanted to hang out after he got off work, no mention of the girls. Between 7pm and 7:30pm Kenneth called Bobby and asked him if he could get a ride to the park to meet the girls. Michelle said she had plans to see Kenneth that evening but he called her about 7:30pm and told her he had to change plans because he had some friends that had come to town that he was going out with.
Pat picked up Kenneth from summer school that day around noon, Kenneth didn’t say anything about getting up with Jill at that time. Pat let Kenneth use his bike that day and Kenneth hung out with Wilson Walker most of the day. Again he never mentioned anything about getting up with the girls to him. The only thing Kenneth told Wilson was; he was suppose to be home by 5pm. Wilson stated it was well after 5pm when Kenneth told him this, he stated it was between 8pm and 8:30pm, we know that time can’t be right. If we put all those accounts together from the people that were with and talked to Kenneth between the time he left summer school until he left home that evening, I feel it’s safe to say this is the one time the police were able to get a concrete time frame and what transpired.
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We were always told that Gayle didn’t really like Jill very much. She said she thought Jill was a spoiled, rich girl and she could go home to visit her family almost every weekend. The two girls had totally different personalities…..they evidently did get along better after Jill had been there a while.
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The relationship between Jill and Gayle that’s always going to be a difficult subject. One of the things I question that the police didn’t do and I know hindsight is 20/20, but at some point the police had to realize that the Methodist Home was connected to this case somehow. They would talk to many of the kids that lived there, especially from the Perkins unit. I wonder why they never just went to the Methodist Home and the Perkins unit and talked to the girls together at one time. To understand the dynamics of any group you have to observe that group together. There’s going to be the one that is the leader or the dominate personality, you have the followers and then you have the quiet ones that don’t say much or anything. You put that group together read the body language the, get a feel for the personalities and then talk to each person individually, usually different stories develop outside the group. Then you bring the group back together and address what conflicting issues arise when they were talked to individually. I don’t know how many girls were on the Perkins unit at one time, the Methodist Home houses about 200 kids at one time I would guess they try to keep the female/male ratio pretty close to 50% but I don’t know how many units there are. Look at all the girls from the Home and mostly if not all from the Perkins unit that became involved in this case one way or the other either talking to the police or testifying or being a victim. Jill, Gayle, Patti Deis, Lisa Kader, Faye Pearson, Rhonda Evans, Angie Rhoden, Ginger Yoby, Christine Hart, Laura Madderax, Dolores Perez and Patty McNutt. Some of those girls testified for the state others testified for the defense. Getting those girls together, especially when most of them were still on the Perkins unit and questioning them together and see what stories would have developed would have been very telling I would imagine.
I know Dolores Perez testified that Jill and Gayle didn’t get along and that Gayle had said some deplorable things about Jill after her murder, but how reliable was Dolores and what was the relationship between Dolores and Gayle? Dolores also testified she would do anything for Muneer Deeb and there were questions about her character, ditto with Patty McNutt at least in my view. Lou Booker, the supervisor at Fort Fisher, told Sgt. Baier that sometimes Jill and Gayle were the best of friends and at other times it seemed they couldn’t stand each other. Once the police found out that Jill and Gayle worked together, something that looks like Gayle did not inform them about, she would tell them that she (Gayle) told Jill that she was running away, leaving from Fort Fisher and not returning to the Home and asked Jill not to say anything and it looks like Jill kept that secret, as things have been told to this point this would have been the last time the two girls would have seen each other. So it would seem at that time Jill and Gayle trusted each other to the point they kept secrets.
I would guess their relationship was like most typical teenage girls but they lived in a not so typical world. There was the sense of competition maybe a little jealousy and some selfishness which may have been magnified a little bit in Gayle due to her circumstances and that was their biggest difference Jill had a loving and caring family that was lacking in Gayle’s life. Jill could turn to her family for her wants and needs, Gayle had no one and we can see in her behavior she got whatever she could from whomever she could however she could, she didn’t have a mommy or daddy or aunt she could go to. One thing that gets totally forgotten in all this is Gayle’s younger sister, she was there at the Methodist Home also, Gayle had no problem running away and leaving or even abandoning her younger sister like her mother in death and her father when he remarried had done to her. Gayle was looking out for number one, anyone no matter their closeness or feelings would have a very difficult time dealing with that. One would have to ask how far could that have gone? Sorry really no answers or questions there just observations but things that are such an intricate part of this sad tragedy.
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Though I didn’t really ask any questions in my last post I still have plenty. Mrs. Thompson and I must say right from the start I don’t even know how to ask about this, it will be like all over the place but there are many questions there. What are your thoughts or feelings about the mysterious Robert and maybe some kind of connection to Fort Worth in general? I know you are aware of the story, if I’m not mistaken the story came from the Waxahachie police and made it’s way to the Waco police. The gist of the story coming out of Fort Worth was some mexican guy named Robert killed Jill because she left the Methodist house and stopped seeing him. I know the police got a picture of a mexican guy with Jill they thought was this Robert, they took it around and found out that guy was a Richard Lopez. When the police asked Mary Bellheimer about any Roberts from the Home she said she was aware of only two Roberts, one Robert Torres that had gotten one of the girls pregnant and the other was Robert Menchaca whom had harbored run away girls from the Home. House parent Patsy Lyles would also say she only knew of two Roberts. She mentioned Menchaca and then another Robert that had left the Home a number of years prior to all this.
Now the story from Fort Worth may just sound like some good rumors but as with most rumors there are enough details to give an air of truth. Rumors can start as being totally true but as they spread only bits and pieces of the truth remain. Look at two things that came out of that story from Fort Worth. First they knew Jill had just left the Methodist Home which was true, to be fair I guess they could have read that in the papers that seemed to be well known that the victims had a connection to the Methodist Home. The second thing though not true there is something to it. They said this Robert worked at the El Chino Restaurant which he did not but the girls had gone to that restaurant that night, Did some one confuse they may have met Robert at the restaurant with Robert working at the restaurant?
The police asked Gayle Kelly about a Robert of Mexican decent that Jill may have been seeing, she gave the name Robert De La Rosa. Gayle said Jill was seeing him on the sly because he was older than the age allowed for the girls to date and that she had never met him but Jill told her he always had a lot of dope. Renelle told police Jill was seeing a Mexican guy but didn’t know his name. Apparently the police got a picture of Menchaca, they showed this to Angie Rhoden but she said she had never seen him before. Kind of strange they asked Angie about this guy knowing the information they had on this guy was that he was harboring runaways, they didn’t ask Rhonda the girl Jill had run away with.
From the police reports we know Jill stayed at Bobby Brem’s at least some of the time she ran away and we also see Kenneth got into a fight with a subject about that time and/or the night of July 13, Ken Adkinsson told police Ken had gotten into a fight with a subject named Torres. Mike Sutton told police Ken got into a fight with a Tony he would change that later to a Bobby. The report says that would be Bobby Brown but that might be a mistake and the name was suppose to be Bobby Brem or maybe just a Bobby(Robert). The most telling info Mike Sutton gave them was the plate numbers on the car this Bobby had, which they found was registered with the same address as Bobby Brem (Hence my thought about the mistake in the report). Sutton would also say this fight took place back in December, could it have been January, the time Jill had run away? A fight with some one either named Robert or Torres that was living at Bobby Brem’s where Jill was hiding out?
And how or why did this story come out of Fort Worth? Again questioning Gayle Kelly’s timeline, she said when she ran away she stayed with friends from Fort Worth. There was plenty of talk about a drug deal. The morning after the murders David Spence and Clifford Oliver planned to go to Fort Worth to make a good deal on some crank. Anthony Melendez said he returned to Waco to get drugs. Clifford Oliver and Tim Childers both testified David and Clifford were shooting up crank that night. Clifford’s car was a silver Pontiac, people told police they saw a silver car parked next to the pinto and talking to the girls. Clifford Oliver’s car was left at Midway Park, Mike McQueen and Karen Hoskins both told police they saw the Pinto and the blonde hair girl driving, either looking for some one or waiting for some one. Ronald Robinson told police he saw the Pinto coming into Koehne park after 11pm and that a guy got out and was picked up by some one in a blue Duster.
Jill’s parents told police that Jill supposedly had met a new speed freak in Waco. Gayle said Kenneth was planning to make some big deal and come into some money. Kenneth wouldn’t give her the name but told her she knew the person and that he had returned to Waco recently. Clifford Oliver had just returned to Waco a few months before the murders. Did Gayle know Clifford Oliver? We know Christine Juhl did. She would testify she recognized his voice when he came to their apartment that night, if you can recognize some one’s voice I think that would show some familiarity. Clifford’s car was vandalized that night, why was it just a random act? And lets not forget Mr. Franks was at Midway Park for a few hours the night of July 13 but could not give any information about that car(Clifford’s). I could go on but I think I’m getting a little off track.
Mrs Thompson do you have any valuable insight or thoughts that you could or would share?
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Not sure if any of my insights are of value, however I do know Jill Mentioned a “Robert” in some letters. She said that he played football . I don’t know if she meant high school football. In another letter she mentioned “we need to go by *Mr R’s* on the way to…(wherever they were going)…….I will try to remember more detail on Ft Worth.
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Mrs. Thompson any and all information and insights are important and valuable, especially something personal like letters, actually something I never thought of. In today’s world we do everything with computers but back in the 80’s everybody didn’t have computers or the internet, they corresponded by hand written letters. Letters that could shed light on some missed piece that was over looked or never seen before. When this case was suspended in the beginning of September 82 there were a lot of things that were just left hanging, no follow ups, no conclusions and being in a state of suspension many things can’t be ruled out
Never thinking about letters before, now I have questions about those. I guess these letters were written by Jill while she was still at the Methodist Home writing her friends back in Waxahachie or visa versa? You mentioned Jill saying in one letter “We need to go by Mr. R’s”, was that letter written to Raylene? And if so when? If not whom was she writing to and did any police officer ever talk to this person? That one sentence from just one letter tells me a couple things. Though this unknown Robert supposedly had some connection to the Methodist Home and the police did ask people from the Home about him, maybe Jill’s friend in Waxahachie knew more about him. The other thing this sentence points out and that’s depending on when it was written Jill was making plans with someone to travel somewhere, Waco? With Raylene? Jill’s mother said the girls didn’t make plans to return to Waco until Sunday night or Monday morning but Ginger Yoby said Jill told her she would be returning next week with Raylene when Jill went to Waco on July 10.
Seeing Jill write “go by Mr. R’s”, Texas Ranger Bill Gunn received information that two guys were suppose to follow Jill and Raylene to Waco, these two subjects were Lynn Martinez and Ricky Threet and they lived in Ennis. I don’t know if the police ever talked to Ricky Threet, they couldn’t find him when they originally looked for him. So we don’t know when when he met either of the girls. Lynn told police he met Raylene and Renelle on July 4 at the lake and met Jill the next day. Lynn states Ricky wasn’t there. Lynn also said that he and Ricky were riding around with Raylene, Renelle and a girl he only knew by Dee Monday night and that Raylene told them she was going to Waco with Jill the next day. The report doesn’t state if Lynn said one way or the other if he and Ricky were planning to follow the girls.
It may be nothing at all but was any of this information checked out or followed up, especially information the police obtained after September 3?
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My question for the day; did the Waco police ever investigate the two break-ins at Patti Deis’ apartment?
Det. Salinas apparently thought Patti had some information about the murders, in his report of July 26 he writes, “This Patti Dies is suppose to be witness or know some information in reference to these murders. However she is not talking, did try to talk to her again in reference to this. However she would not volunteer any further information. This case made on the burglary on 7-23-82, has been referred to this case”. This was the second break-in and Patti called Det, Salinas on July 23 to report it but did not come into the police station to discuss the matter. Did any officer go to the apartment to check it out?
Det. Nicoletti and Texas Ranger Joe Wiley saw the apartment after the first break-in of July 20. They saw the blood that dripped down from where the window was broken to the sidewalk of the apartment below. Did anyone try to collect any samples of this blood? They saw the apartment was ransacked, that the knives were lined up on the kitchen counter and the note left. Did they ever dust for fingerprints or compare the writing on the note to anyone?
Strange thing I have noticed, it appears Det. Salinas never equated Patti’s connection to this case was because Gayle Kelly stayed with her, even though all the information the investigators had obtained, as early as July 15, was Gayle Kelly was very close to Kenneth Franks. Pat Torres, Bobby Brem and Donnie Culp all mentioned Gayle Kelly when they came to the station at 2pm on July 15. Patti was mentioned but none of the boys new her last name, Torres new she lived at the Northwood apartments again probably because Gayle was staying there and Kenneth had stayed there some nights while she was staying there, again many questions here, On the morning of July 14 when Mr. Franks couldn’t find the kids and the police told him maybe he should check with some of Kenneth’s friends to see if he stayed with any of them Torres told him to check at Patti’s at the Northwood apartments. That tells me Mr. Franks did not know Patti at that point.
Also on July 15 when Officer Porterfield went to the Methodist Home Mary Bellheimer mentioned Gayle Kelly stating she and Kenneth dated after Jill and Kenneth had broken up. Remember this was all before Tab Harper’s name kept coming up. The police wouldn’t start receiving calls about him until the next day (July 16). By the afternoon of July 15 everybody that knew Kenneth Franks was mentioning Gayle Kelly and the only reason Patti was mentioned was because Gayle stayed with her but Salinas puts his focus on talking to Patti, I would think Gayle Kelly would have been the point of focus at that point.
Another interesting thing about the first break-in, it happened the same night Christine Juhl left David Spence. She would testify she and David got into a fight the night of July 19 and she left, returned the next day July 20 to collect her things and that was the last time she was at the apartment. Patti’s apartment was broken into between 11pm July 19 when Gayle Kelly was at work and 7am July 20 when she returned. Is there a connection?
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In my earlier post I said I had many questions about Kenneth staying at Patti’s apartment, again this goes towards Mr. Franks not being honest with the police and Gayle Kelly’s timeline. Mr. Franks told police there were no problems at home between he and Kenneth and that it was unlike Kenneth to go out and not return home. Others told the police quite the opposite. Pat Torres said Kenneth stayed at his house or they stayed out all night at the park. Gayle Kelly stated she and Kenneth also stayed out all night at the park and had spent the night at Patti’s. One could argue just because Kenneth spent nights out with friends doesn’t show there were any problems at home. But there was at least one other person Kenneth stayed with that summer; Danny McSpaden. McSpaden would tell police Kenneth stayed at this apartment, which was also at the Northwood apartments, for a couple nights in June because Kenneth couldn’t go home. McSpaden said Kenneth never gave him any reason he couldn’t go home. Danny Sizemore also stayed at McSpaden’s apartment at this time, Sizemore’s girlfriend, Joy Thrasher also had an apartment at Northwood, why didn’t Kenneth and Donnie just stay at her place? Why didn’t Kenneth just stay at Patti’s, something we know he would do. I think the answer is he didn’t stay at Patti’s those nights he stayed at Danny’s was because Gayle wasn’t there, where was she? Maybe this was when she returned to the Methodist Home? Though this was June, she said she returned to the Methodist Home the Monday after July 4, which would have been July 5, Either way Kenneth Franks was crashing from place to place that summer, doesn’t sound like everything was kosher at home to me.
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It is my thinking that back in that time period, there were many instances where parents were still saying, “No, MY CHILD WOULD NEVER DO THAT !!!” With our world becoming so much more liberal, we tend to realize there isn’t stigma attached to the crazy things our young people do and say. I always felt it was much better to tell the truth about things if you expect to know the “real” story.
Therefore, I understand the actions of those parents even though I do not agree with them.
Now, as far as Gayle’s timeline, I personally have a hard time with all of her stories and answers to questioning.
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I think you would need to meet Gayle and be around her back in those days to understand my comment. I have not heard from her in many years.
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Mrs. Thompson, thank you again for taking the time to reply. This may be totally judgmental on my part but with Mr. Franks being gay I would think he had liberal leanings. What I question is not that Mr. Franks was hiding any of Kenneth’s behavior but his own or how things were during the time leading up to the murders, it just doesn’t make sense or add up to me. Again my own feelings are when some one is not truthful it’s because they are hiding something, what was Mr. Franks trying to hide. Was it that he was gay and his son had a problem with it? That’s difficult to believe because so many other people knew this, Mr. Franks had to know this was going to come to light. But if you look at the police reports when they are referring to Kenneth King they call him a roommate, somewhat skirting the issue. Even in Mr. Stowers’ book he avoids the issue actually he makes it sound like Mr. Franks was a womanizer he never mentions Mr. Franks was gay. I don’t want to put too much emphasis on his sexual preference but I don’t think it can be totally ignored either, it caused a strain in their relationship and Mr. Franks was very dishonest about it, I don’t think it had anything to do with trying to hide anything Kenneth was doing.
The selling of the boat, Mr. Franks told police he did it just because he didn’t have time to use it, like Kenneth didn’t have a problem with it. Gayle Kelly and either Donna Olsen or Mary Padillia if not both girls hinted that Kenneth was not happy about it. Then the police found that Kenneth Franks had gotten a ticket out on the lake water skiing, something Mr. Franks never told them. Also remember Bobby Brem couldn’t go out with Kenneth that night because they had taken Bobby’s parent’s boat out that July 4 without permission and Bobby was grounded. Mr. Franks said he was unaware of this, was he also unaware Kenneth had gotten a ticket? Or is it possible that Mr. Franks knew about this and this had something to do with him selling the boat and if so why not tell the police the truth?
Remember what Gayle Kelly told police when she first talked to police on July 20; she said Mr. Franks called her, Mr. Franks said he went to the apartment, the morning of July 14 and made the comment he hoped Kenneth didn’t get what he deserved, Gayle did say he was being sarcastic but she didn’t understand what he meant by that statement. Either way that’s a very strange statement from some one that’s suppose to be so distressed over not being able to find his son. Gayle also told police Kenneth King didn’t get along with Kenneth Frank and his friends and Kenneth Franks had a hard time with his father being gay. Danny McSpaden told police once he along with Danny Sizemore stopped by to see Kenneth Franks, he wasn’t home but Mr. Franks invited them in, once inside Mr. Franks came on to them. I will just throw this out there; that sounds a lot like some of the same actions as Robert Freuh. And it was these same two boys Kenneth Franks stayed with that June when he couldn’t return home. Mrs. Thompson I know we can’t make definite conclusions about this but there are a couple things that are rather evident. A least a few of Kenneth Franks friends; Gayle Kelly, Danny McSpaden and Donnie Sizemore knew Mr. Franks was gay and that Kenneth had a problem with it and when he couldn’t go home or he was having problems at home these were the same people he turned to and stayed with. Mr Franks told police it wasn’t like Kenneth not to come home we know that wasn’t true, I would also guess when Kenneth didn’t go home Mr. Franks didn’t know where he went. Why did Mr. Franks go hang out at Midway Park that night when he knew Kenneth and the girls were going out to the lake and if Mr. Franks was out there until about midnight why did he think to go check there later in the night to try and find the kids?
One other thing I find troubling with what Mr. Franks said was when he told John Ashley that the bodies were discovered where he use to go camping and this was right after he told, again either Donna Olsen or Mary Padilla, sorry I keep getting those two girls mixed up, that he didn’t know where the bodies were discovered. One thing I think we can be pretty sure about is whomever did this they had to be familiar with Speegleville Park. Rather the murders took place there or not, they had to know where the secluded areas were, they had to know how do get in and out without going through the gates if necessary and if they did this after dark you would think they would have had to do some of this without lights on.
And one final thing on Mr Franks, something I haven’t even touched on because I’m still trying to put everything together I can find on this and this is the Gutierrez brothers and their car. I guess I should get everything straight like the names before I try to get into this but the guy that ran the pool hall where Kenneth met the Gutierrez brothers and I would guess Clifford Oliver told the police that Kenneth was going to buy their car, I can’t remember the type of car but apparently the Gutierrez brothers had done a nice job old it and it was a nice ride, all I can remember at this time was that it was green. The police asked Mr. Franks about it and he told them Kenneth was going to buy the car but that they car was parked at their house for some time and while it was there Mr. Franks took pictures of the car and maybe some video, I could be mistaken about the video. James Gutierrez told police that he and his brother Terry had met Kenneth only a couple weeks prior to the murders and only had talked to him a couple of times. If they didn’t know each other that well and Kenneth wasn’t trying to buy the car why was it parked at the Frank’s home and why was Mr. Franks taking pictures of it? Terry Gutierrez took off with Clifford Oliver to California when things are getting hot for him in Waco and it was the Gutierrez brother that tried to help Clifford with the insurance scam. Then there was the first statement to police from Ronald Robinson. Mr. Robinson was interviewed a couple times by the police, he seemed believable but his story didn’t match up what other people had said. Robinson said he saw the Pinto coming into Koehne Park between 1am and 1:30am and a guy was driving, the guy got out and a green car that was suped-up came flying in right behind the pinto and picked up the guy driving the pinto. Then a black Cadillac drove in and parked behind the Pinto a couple minutes later. Robinson knew whom was driving the Cadillac because that car pulled up to their car and talked to them, it was Robert Freuh. The second time Robinson talked to police the green suped-up car became a blue Duster just like the car he was in. Changing stories???
There’s a mosaic of characters in any case but the complex web of connections in this case I find unique maybe even troubling and maybe the truth even more so and that’s why we get a mistaken identity motive, those connections never need to be made.
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Mrs. Thompson you are absolutely correct about understanding people associated with this case, I will never know these people, doesn’t matter how much I read or how many times, the book, the police reports, the testimony, it can only give me a glimpse of the people involved. You can apply basic human behavior to what you read, though that may not be accurate. In particular to Gayle Kelly you do see a very clear pattern and really it is something very easy to understand, not trying to say yes I know her but in her dealings with the police it is obvious.
During the investigation from July 14 until Simons left the Waco PD sometime in October Gayle Kelly never gave the police any information on her own accord. If they had information and they confronted her with it she would elaborate. Simply it has to do with trust, in her world she knew better than to trust people no matter whom they were she didn’t trust too many people if any at all truly, the only time she was going to open up is if she felt it was in her best interest. When she talked to police on July 20 they never mentioned Muneer Deeb nor did she, the names of Rebecca DesMarias and Tab Harper came up and though the report doesn’t clearly state so Nicoletti probably asked her about these people, this was at the time when he and Salinas were still hot on this trail. This is just another example of some of the officers not being clear and precise in their reports, just as the report doesn’t say anything about Nicoletti and Gayle talking about the number of stab wounds but when she talked to Simons and Baier she told them that Nicoletti had given her those details. Compared to Baier, whom wrote very good reports, when he talked to Lou Booker at Fort Fisher in his report Baier clearly states that Lou Booker brought up Muneer Deeb without being asked. And just as Gayle never mentioned Muneer Deeb until asked by Baier and Simons September the 12, she didn’t tell them that she worked at Fort Fisher with Jill and that Muneer Deeb had been out there to visit her a number of times until Baier talked to Lou Booker and then went to see Gayle a second time and asked her about it. Once they asked her about it that is when she informed them that she told Jill she was running away. And then when they told her that they were seriously looking at Muner Deeb as being responsible for these murders she called Simons that night and told them Deeb had admitted to her he had committed the murders. She never mentioned the insurance policy until she was asked, I do believe she was being honest about that, she just never saw any importance in it because she thought she was signing something for workers comp. The only thing about that is she signed that on June 22 which tells me she was still planning to work for Deeb at that time and if it was true that the plan of her working for Deeb ended when he found Gayle and Kenneth together and she moved out it doesn’t match the rest of her stated timeline.
If someone anyone not just Gayle Kelly doesn’t give information out freely, then one has to ask what other information could she have but never came out because no one asked her. Also her calling Simons and telling him Deeb had admitted to her killing the kids, if she was only giving information out that benefited her, what benefit was she getting turning in Deeb at that time? Deeb had made comments that would make it seem he had some involvement or first hand knowledge of the murders to Gayle before and she never thought about telling the police before but once she found out he was their prime suspect, well at least Simons’ and Baier’ she reported those comments. Deeb would say he was joking when he made all these comments. Even Kareem Qusem, Deeb’s partner, testified Deeb and David talked about killing Gayle many times and at first he thought Deeb was joking but after awhile he wasn’t so sure Deeb was just joking.
Mrs Thompson going back to not knowing these people, here is my take on Deeb from the little glimpse I have gotten. It seems to me Deeb was somewhat socially awkward, maybe had something to do with the cultural difference but the way he would hide that awkwardness is say he was joking. It was like a defense mechanism anytime he said anything that offended people or was inappropriate his response was always “I was joking”. So it was that night when Gayle called Simons but what made her feel different that night than the other nights when he made similar comments? Why or how did she feel this was going to benefit her to report it this time? Maybe once Simons and Baier told her Deeb was suspect number one she realized they were getting close to the truth, whatever it was, and knew it would be in her best interest to give her version of the truth first? If that was the case that would point towards her knowing a lot more than she ever told.
Another aspect of the relationship between Gayle Kelly and Muneer Deeb that leaves questions. Deeb had a history of intimidating the girls he liked or became infatuated with and didn’t get his way, which seems was all the time. The girls would just keep taking from him and he got nothing in return and finally he would get mad. He stalked Kebana Reed until she finally called the police on him and had him arrested. He threatening Dana Diamond telling her he was going to blow up her apartment with her and her boyfriend in it if she wouldn’t break up with her boyfriend, that way if he (Deeb) couldn’t have her no one could. And though everybody said Muneer loved or was obsessed with Gayle and she treated him just like the other girls did, there are no reports he responded with threats as he did with the other girls. And though it seems they were on the outs during the time of the murders by the time Simons and Baier talked to Gayle in September Deeb was spending the night at the apartment with Gayle and Patti.
In regards to Gayle’s timeline, I know in the testimony it is stated she was in the Methodist Home during the murders or July 5 through July 23, both the State and the Defense went with this it helped both their cases, well in the case of the defense for Muneer Deeb. But there are other things that point to that not being true. The two break ins at Patti’s, Gayle went to work the night of July 19 at IHOP at 11pm. Gayle said the last time she saw Kenneth was a Monday about a week before his murder. She adds he came to the Home but wasn’t allowed on the grounds because he didn’t have a pass. I’ve read where many people got on the grounds without a pass including David Spence. And if she returned July 5 which was a Monday the only other Monday there was before the murders was July 12,the day before the murders. So if she remember she returned on July 5 and that was the last day she saw Kenneth wouldn’t she have remembered the last day she saw him was the first day she returned? And what time did she return that day and did the Methodist Home allow her just to wander around the grounds right after she returned from running away?
No later than the morning of July 15 if Mr. Franks hadn’t told them before that the police were told Gayle Kelly lived at the Methodist Home, they were looking to talk to her, if she was at the Home why not just go there and talk to her. Nicoletti would on July 23, the day Gayle would say was her last day there but if she was at Patti’s apartment during the break ins which were July 20 and July 23 she wasn’t at the Home those nights. This might be the weakest argument against her being at the Home because the police had a hard time trying to make contact with a number of girls at the Home for some reason that just doesn’t make sense to me. The Methodist Home was a controlled environment if the police wanted to talk to some one all they had to do was set it up, call in and say I want to talk to this person or that person at so and so time. But in many of the reports it shows they just couldn’t do that. Holstien writes in one report she couldn’t contact Laura Madderax, I never know if they were ever able to talk to her. The police never found out whom was Jill’s room mate until November. So maybe it is possible the police were told Gayle was at the Home and they never checked even though they were looking for her and wanted to talk for her.
Then the most compelling piece of information that conflicts with Gayle being at the Home in accordance with her statements is John Henderson.. And as with many things with this case there are questions about this. A subject called the police by the name of Terry Barrett on July 26 and told the police he was at the park July 13 about 6:30pm and he saw the Pinto and the girls talking to a guy in a blue chevy and he saw a beat up white van. Barrett said he parked between the Pinto and the van. Barrett would call back about 20 minutes later and told police he had found out John Henderson was also at the park that night and the police should talk to him. Salinas talks to Henderson on July 27 and Henderson tells him he was at the park and he saw Kenneth, he knew Kenneth, and the two girls in the Pinto and mentions seeing the same van that Barrett had seen. Henderson said he had gone to the park about 7pm with his friend Kenny Young. Salinas Talked to Kenny Young and Young tells the same story. Then on September 3 the day Salinas states the case is being suspended, actually in the same report, he states the only thing he has left to do at that point is talk to a witness in reference to “her” not telling the complete truth when he talked to her the first time on July 27. Salinas planned to talk to this person on September 5. Again not being clear we’re not sure whom he is talking about and taking into consideration he was suspending the case you would think that information would be important to some one if they decided to look over the case and see if they could find anything. There are a couple clues he says her and he says he first talked to her on July 27. Whom did Salinas talk to on July 27? There were many people he talked to so any number of them could have changed their stories, I’ve never seen a report for September 5, so did anyone ever come in that day? But in his report of November 30 Salinas writes he talks to John Henderson again, though Henderson is not a her Salinas did first talk to him on July 27. Salinas’ language as usual is a little confusing. he states John Henderson had been interviewed prior about seeing the Victims at the park July 13 but this is in reference to John seeing Kenneth in the park Monday July 12 and seeing Kenneth get in a light colored Trans-Am or Z28 with two girls. “AT THIS TIME” Henderson states he was not at the park that night. Which night is Salinas talking about John not being there July 12 or July 13? Where did Salinas get the information about the night of July 12. Here’s my take on it and I could be wrong again. When Salinas writes “at this time”, that’s why I put it in all capitals, he’s telling us what Henderson is saying “NOW” at this time November 19 is different from what he said “THEN” July 27. Salinas was hearing a lot of changing stories during the investigation, so when he was writing his reports he was writing things he understood what he knew not thinking about other people looking at his reports and questioning what he wrote and what he meant. The light colored car in the park Monday July 12 in question could be Patti Deis’ and the two girls that were seen with Kenneth that night could be Gayle and Patti. That could have been the Monday which was the last time Gayle saw Kenneth. That would really put into question where she was Juky 13.
I know I have been over all that before but it just sticks with me. If people are being dishonest what can you believe?
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Your last sentence says it all ! I have been “mislead” so many times in the past 34 years I will admit that I depend on intuition and that old “gut feeling” in many instances. Wouldn’t it be great if some of the folks who participated in giving info and testifying back then, would step forward with their current thoughts and reactions since the era of DNA and Forensic Science has become more reliable??…….Just sayin…..
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